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February 14, 2008
building permits
I am getting close to purchasing a house on 16th street. Our inspection came out about like we expected except that the inspector pointed out a number of remodelling jobs that were done (well) with out permits. He tells us that when we remodel in the future with permits it will open us up to a full inspection by the building department and we could incur permit and upgrade charges for all the violations they find in the household. Does anyone one have any experience with this sort of situation and what is the likely hood of getting "nailed" for the sins of the prior owners?
Comments
Sorry for this but in all honesty, you will be screwed for the duration of your ownership or the length of your life, whichever is the longer more pain filled course.
No where on the planet is it more costly (and now stupid), to now own a pile of old bricks and the DOB will never, ever forgive or forget, even if you had nothing to do with it.
Take your "smart" money and move somewhere that is easier, cleaner, cheaper and greener, I'm not kidding.
A DOB violation from 2001 on my house, (yes permits) is still on record even though it was paid and cleared up years ago and every time I have to re-explain it again makes my life that much shorter. Its not worth it.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:21 PM
Make the current owner resolve this as part of the sale. It will undoubtely delay your closing, but as 12:21 said, it will be worth it.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:28 PM
Please, so many houses in Brooklyn have work done without permits. Many of the old-timers did that. The advice to leave NYC entirely to go where it's "cheaper and greener" is not a legitimate alternative to figuring out some permits.
Where there's a will there's a way, OP. Hire an expeditor, find out what it would cost to clear up this situation with the DOB and negotiate a lower price with the seller. The seller chose to skip getting permits, now it's time for them to confront what that means financially.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:33 PM
thanks for the advice.
Where do I go to find an expeditor?
Posted by: mojosexton at February 14, 2008 1:12 PM
Wait, hang on here. Your scenario you've described seems to be in the impossible/extremely unlikely category -- the Dept of Buildings simply does not work like this.
When you "remodel with future permits" you usually would have a DoB inspector present only if your work involves changing the C of O. If there is an egregious safety violation on the prior work they will ask you to repair it, yes, but come on if that's the case should you be arguing with them? Otherwise, they inspect only the work proposed in the open permit. If the work does not involve a C of O change, the DoB does not inspect, your architect or engineer signing off the technical reports does this instead.
So your inspector gave you some incorrect advice. I am saying this without knowing the full details of your situation and the extent to which the earlier illegal renovations changed the nature of the building (did they convert the basement into a cockfighting ring? block a required emergency exit?) but the DoB does not typically do re-inspection of prior illegal work.
That said, it's a good idea to file any future work you undertake that requires it, for reasons I've outlined in other posts, but you generally should have no fear of prior work interfering with a filing. DoB filings take place all the time in buildings with all sorts of violations and code mayhem, and as long as the filed work specifically is compliant, that is what matters to the DoB.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 14, 2008 1:36 PM
Welcome to 16th Street. Walk into any of your neighbors homes and you will see unfiled DIY renovation jobs a plenty. My house was a nightmare when we bought it. A two family that was being used as an illegal three family with the worst gonzo contracting I ever saw. What I would be more worried about is what you may find in the future when you open the walls and reveal the previous renovations. That said, I have had inspectors come through and what the Smokychimp said was true... They only looked at what was on the list... new electrical service and plumbing. That was after someone ratted me out to 311 for an unlicensed plumber. (not true) They didn't care at all about why the bedroom ceilings were missing or that the windows were being replaced. To top it off we refinanced in the middle of changing out out entire kitchen cabinets/counter/sink/flooring and the banks appraiser still counted our 2nd kitchen as finished even though there was only a drain in the wall. If there is a will there is a way.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:28 PM
what do you mean by 'we could incur permit and upgrade charges for all the violations they find in the household'
Are there any violations on the house now??
Go to:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/bis/bis.shtml
put in the address of the house and borough and do a search for the house in DOB and find out if there are any violations.
If the house doesn't have any violations...what are you worried about?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:32 PM
I'm, 2:32 and I want to clarify other things.
If there are NO DOB violations to your house. This is what will happen when you file future jobs (renovations).
Say you are moving a couple of walls. On your plans that will be filed, you will show what is existing to stay, what you are removing and what you are putting in new. DOB has no record of what the existing looks like (most likely being an older house, they don't have plans). No one is going to come and check to see if those walls that you are re-configuring weren't originally filed.
If there are violations on the hosue. They should be cleared up prior to your purchase. You might not be able to get financing otherwise.
Go to the DOB site, I linked above. In the lower left hand corner, you will see:
complaints
violation - DOB
Violations - ECB
Jobs / Filings
ETC.
You should always research a house before you buy it.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:44 PM
oops!
I should of had my lawyer read through my query first!
I said violations in the sense of work done (like an additional bath (which we plan to remove anyways) without proper permits.
There is one complaint from 2002 in the houses file for construction without a permit. The inspector came by twice about 10 months after the complaint and no one was home either time. the complaint is now described as resolved. (I suspect they were installing the small deck in the back yard. It looks about 5+ years old and is the kind of visible project that can get your neighbors riled up)
Posted by: mojosexton at February 14, 2008 3:28 PM
While what 2:44 says is generally right, a couple of qualifications
1. actually it's not that the DoB doesn't have plan records going back very far. They have records of some sort on every building in the city, and plans all the way back to well before the DoB was established as a city agency. It's just that...
2. They don't bother to reference previous records. They use the architect or engineer's certification that the existing conditions drawing they are submitting is accurate. Much easier to put someone's career on the line with signed and sealed certification than go back into the musty old records and double check.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 14, 2008 3:29 PM
Oh and Mojosexton, a complaint on record is not a violation. A complaint is just a complaint, that's what the city does now as a log when you call 311 and complain about your neighbor. A violation is what you're concerned about.
Email me your address and I can translate your online DoB record into English, if you'd like.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 14, 2008 3:34 PM
Yes, by all means research your future house. And by all means have the current owner correct HIS mistakes and pay HIS fines. And by all means contact the DOB for confirmation that the ECB violations or the DOB violations are cleared. And by all means have an inspector come out to confirm all the above. Then watch as the DOB records show none of this ever happened, for years!
That's how the DOB works now. Maybe it will be different in a hundred years when the current DOB employees are all dead!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 3:34 PM
The DOB does not have plan records on every building - I would say they have nothing on at least half of all buildings - the plans were lost, destroyed, the folder was lost, the DOB burned down, was flooded, etc. etc.
So there is a very good chance that the DOB will never know about the previous unpermitted work - If you do any new work then just show whatever you want to keep as existing to remain.
If a complaint is made about work being done without a permit then the DOB will send someone out and if they go 3 times and don't get access they will dismiss the complaint and it will become "resolved". (I think this is lame as it allows sleazy owners and contractors to get away with doing illegal work.)
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:33 PM
So if I am looking at a place and it says "resolved" after violations that means no inspector was admitted so they just dropped it? What does it say if the problems were actually addressed and corrected?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 8:46 PM
all this makes me so comfortable that i've done so much work inside & out without the nagging issues of permits
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 9:58 PM
shouldn't have taken all that advice from brownstoners that said the permits were a waste of money.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:08 PM
"If a complaint is made about work being done without a permit then the DOB will send someone out and if they go 3 times and don't get access they will dismiss the complaint and it will become "resolved". " Really???
I am wondering whether they will get a court order to get in and check? or they may just give a violation ticket even though not get in to check?
Could Anyone offer opinions: if I got a complaint regarding my very old extension without permit( this type of extension is very common in Queens), what is the best thing to do? Go quickly to get an architect to legalize it or just wait for the violation tickets to come, or just try not allow dob people to access to my house (let it resolved)??
Thanks a lot.
Posted by: guest at February 19, 2008 1:42 PM
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