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February 6, 2008
blowing out rear wall in historic district.
We have a dark and narrow rowhouse in an historic district. My husband longs to blow out entire rear wall and install glass windows on at least the first level and hopefully all levels. He wants something more modern and clean that attached picture -- that's just to give you an idea.
Anyway, what are the chances we'd get permission? And would it cost more than, say, 30k per floor to take out all the masonry and build these in?
And how likely is it that entire 100 year old building will collapse or something (my fear)?
Comments
Just do it. It will be cool and everyone will love you.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 10:56 AM
We did this on the parlor floor (17 footer). Awesome. Didn't collapse. Your ballpark figure is close.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 10:57 AM
I want to do this too. Very modern and sleek. Anxious to hear prices from others.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 11:09 AM
We put a back door in the back of our 1st floor historic district townhouse without permission.
Rule of thumb, if you cant see it from the street, it doesnt exist.
Go for it
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 11:12 AM
They do this in Manhattan townhouses all the time. Good luck.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 11:21 AM
11:12 SAID - Rule of thumb, if you cant see it from the street, it doesnt exist.
Thats a Bad rule of thumb.
File the job. If you have an irate neighbor or the block association calls you in, you're in trouble. In a landmarked district, the block association will be on top of you.
Landmarks - a rear does matter. After you submit your plans to them for your work, they will come out there and make sure that there is nothing historical about the rear elevation. Historic brick pattern, etc. Most likely, they'll approve just about anything in the rear.
Get an archtict involved, it's more that what you think. You'll probably need a structural engineer also, cause there are probably a beam along that back wall.
Good luck.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 11:32 AM
Love that view - what street is that, Montgomery Place looking into Prospect Park? Park Slope RULES.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 11:44 AM
We knocked down our back wall and installed Pella sliding glass doors and windows, knocked down all the walls AND raised the ceiling in the back section so we could add transoms -- and the house is still standing. We worked very closely with an architect and engineer to make sure everything was sound. We love it. Our garden level feels like a loft.
V.
Posted by: luvtocook at February 6, 2008 11:46 AM
Permits and architects are for wussies. Just go to Home Depot and DIY it over a couple of weekends.
You should also take a cue from the interior design in the pic you included, which looks like a "Great Room" in a suburban Denver McMansion.
Posted by: Rehab at February 6, 2008 12:25 PM
Perhaps Manhattan is different. I am not sure. I live on a landmark block. The neighbors two houses up tried to do this on the DL and got totally busted. The back of their house is a total mess and they ticked of the DoB and can't get any work approved, even to change it back. That was like a year ago. The framing is up and ivy is growing through it. Terrible.
I am doing a glass wall in the back of mine (its a 16' wide and 120 years old). You need an architect and a structural engineer and you need to file. I can't give you a price because its all melded together with all the other work that is being done with the house. However, the glass and steel alone is 15,000.00.
It is pricey but it changes the light and flow of the floor and gives you more "space".
Good Luck.
Posted by: hhitchc at February 6, 2008 1:36 PM
It would be awesome from the light perspective but wouldn't it be living in a fishbowl with your neighbors peering in?
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 6, 2008 1:52 PM
My friends did this in Manhattan and it doesn't feel fishbowl. But they didn't open up all the floors, they just put big windows across the wall on each floor. So it still feels private enough and yet lets in a lot of nice light. Looks great from the backyard too. I think the suburban house photo the OP posted looks fishbowl because suburban subdivisions don't believe in planting trees! Ha. But it's true, right? Most houses in Brooklyn have pretty big trees in back.
There are some houses on our landmarked blocks that did this. Just check into it with LPC and see. There are probably guidelines to know about.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 2:52 PM
Thanks for all the comments.
Yeah, I know the picture is super mcmansion-y, just wanted to make sure people knew what I meant by replacing the entire wall. My husband wants something Dwell-ish. I just don't want the whole place to crumble into a pile of bricks.
I would, of course, file in all the proper ways. I'm not the outlaw type. That's why I asked if we spend the 5k+ (10K?) to get plans drawn up by architects and engineers and filed how likely it was to get approved. I saw it done all the time in london and they have strict rules too, but I don't know Brooklyn all that well.
There is a pretty deep garden in the back (which backs into another garden), so the first couple of floors would mostly have a view of that and the garden wall. And we'd need curtains.
I'm also wondering bcs we'd be the first in the block with anything new like this. No other 1970 additions or bump outs. Worry that the Landmarks people would like to keep the continuity.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 2:52 PM
I would love to see some pictures of the work described above by posters. In Europe (Im thinking the Netherlands and Germany in particular) this kind of work is done on old townhouses all the time, but I rarely here about it in Brooklyn.
Also can anyone recommend a good architect for this type of work.....
Posted by: crownheights2007 at February 6, 2008 2:55 PM
Search in the NY Times at houses (pricey ones) in West Village and Upper East Side, 2:55. You'll see some examples of glass-backed houses there.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 2:57 PM
11:32 here - Architect. I just did this in a townhouse in Manhattan.
Landmarks doesn't care what the other neighbors have done. You most likely would get this approved. If you are a corner house, they might have issues with it, because it'll be visible from the street.
DO NOT do this yourself. It's more involved than you think.
Your limestone, brownstone is made out of brick and clad in stone. Between your floors on the exterior walls are beams that run the width of the house to suport the floor above. Once you break down that wall to open it up, you might need a column in the middle to carry that beam or a cross beam...a structural engineer will advise you. (we had to put a column in the middle, so we ended up with two sets of double doors).
Also, file the job. I've had stop work orders on my jobs, that were filed and permited (because neighbors called to complain). Stop work orders are not fun to deal with and they don't go away over night. They delay the job and cost money.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 4:21 PM
I second the above post it is good advice.
The details on Landmarks --
Landmarks has different levels of review, depending on a number of criteria like whether or not work can be seen from the street, whether the building is in a district versus individually landmarked building, etc. Each higher level requires a longer and more involved process with more review.
The lowest level review can be done in a matter of hours and it's called a Certificate of No Effect, when you are working on a landmarked property but doing no exterior work. The next step up is staff level review, which is what your project will be most likely assigned to. Anything higher involves a community board.
Staff level review might take about a month to process, depending on how backed up they are. It shouldn't be much of an obstacle to getting what you want but it would be wise to factor in the month delay in your expectations of project schedule.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 6, 2008 4:33 PM
BTW - The DOB (Department of Buildings) lately seems to be on a war path. They are auditing jobs - meaning they will come down to inspect - when it was Self Certified - meaning the architect could have inspected it and signed it off.
Also, after you file with Landmarks and yes, it will be more than a month to get a response from them. Response - I didn't say approved. If all is well, they'll approve - but that is so rare - they'll give you a response as to what they object. You resubmit. AFter you get approval (You get a Landmarks Permit), You then file with DOB for a construction Permit, Structural Permit.
Posted by: guest at February 6, 2008 4:41 PM
It's very dangerous to do without permit! Please think what if your neighbors complain to DOB and when you sell your house.
Other people say whatever they say, but only you take responsibility for it. I am in process of permit for extension back of my house.
Posted by: momo at February 7, 2008 3:54 PM
It's very dangerous to do without permit! Please think what if your neighbors complain to DOB and when you sell your house.
Other people say whatever they say, but only you take responsibility for it. I am in process of permit for extension back of my house.
Posted by: momo at February 7, 2008 3:56 PM
dude, she/he said she would get permit. twice.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 4:58 PM
its worth saying 3 times, to those who even think of it. don't do structural work yourself, anyone.
worst case scenario, the building falls down, or a kookoo building inspector says it might, even though he is wrong. the city comes and knocks it down, to be on the safe side. it has happened in ny. play it safe, dude, play it safe!
Qoute, when seeking advice, think how you would advise someone else, then follow your own advice!
Posted by: brownstone89 at March 11, 2008 12:06 AM
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