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February 2, 2008
4 family to 2
I'm thinking about buying a four family brownstone. I've already had it inspected and my offer accepted.
I want to live it as a one family, and ideally would like to have the C of O changed to two.
Question 1: Is it complicated going from 4 to 2 and what would it cost?
Question 2: would changing the C of O mandate a thorough inspection by the bldgs. dept? and therefore require permitting of any/all changes...
Comments
This is such a stupid question and a stupid scenario. You've already put the offer in and had it accepted and only NOW are you posing these questions? Give me a break! How stupid are you? Of course you need to file this. Anything more than a 2-family home is under different regulations and codes. This changes your taxes, changes your home's life safety requirements, it changes everything. Granted, it is not extremely difficult to do this, but I just can't believe that someone would put an offer in on a house before doing all the research. You are one big idiot!
Posted by: guest at February 2, 2008 11:19 PM
Don't let cranky poster 11:19 get to you. Many people live in houses that are legally 4 family as 3 family or 2 family, or even 1 family and never bother to change the c of o.
My understanding is that this is legal to do as long as you are using it as less and not more than the c of o. That's why big co-ops don't change the c of o every time someone combines 2 apartments.
However, 2 families have lower taxes than 4 family apts, and less regulations, so may be worth changing. On the other hand, sometimes changing the c of o allows the dept of finance to greatly increase your taxes because your house is taxed at its actual value instead of the grandfathered-in fraction of the value as per NY complicated tax codes. So you should get some good legal advice, and not from a website.
If you are renovating a 4-family into a 2, you will need to file those plans. However, that doesn't mean you actually have to change the c of o, which happens separately from the filing of plans. Of course, I don't think the building dept. will let you file plans to turn a 1 family into a 4 family without a proper c of o, but they will (I believe) let you file plans to change a 4 to a less amount. And yes, they usually do an inspection to sign off.
Posted by: guest at February 2, 2008 11:31 PM
just live it as 1 family and renovated as such. they don't care as long as youre not having more than your legal limit of 4.
its always okay to go down in number but not okay to go up.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at February 2, 2008 11:45 PM
I guess I knew that I could live in it as a one family withot necesarily changing the c of o, which is why - pace guest 11:19 - I bid on it. I wonder, however, if renovating along the 1 family lines - removing 3 kitchens will create a title problem in 20 years when I want to sell the house. Will I need to replace 3 kitchens at time of sale because it will be listed as a four family?
Posted by: hegelian at February 3, 2008 1:02 AM
if youre planing to sell in 20 years lol. i'm sure you have money to renovate or change the co by then.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at February 3, 2008 1:56 AM
I'm going thru a similar scenario now and can offer you advice based only on this limited experience. I'm converting a legal two family to a one family and have been advised I have to change the c of o. Whether or not you can get away with leaving the current c of o in place seems to depend on what kind of renovation work you will be doing.
If you are doing a major gut rehab, as I am, that will require permits, you will need to change the c of o. By taking out the second kitchen, opening up stairwells, etc., the DOB will know you are changing the use, and so you will need a c of o change.
If you are not doing major work, you can probably get away with leaving the existing c of o in place. You could probably take out the kitchens without making too much to-do about it.
My architect informs me that in my case the c of o change will add about $7500 to the job. Not sure how much goes to him and how much to the city.
Denton
Posted by: denton at February 3, 2008 8:56 AM
People here will tell you you definitely need to file for permits with dob to take out kitchens.
I am looking for a house and have seen many selling them legal 3/4 family with fewer units already set up. If they can do it now, you can do it then.
I wonder if there is any other advantage to having a lower c of o. Do the taxes get lowered? Are all the requirements for sprinklers/fire escapes still in place if you don't have 4 residents? In other words, if you remove fire escape because you only use as a 2 family, can the city fine you/your tenant complain/sue you? Can you get a better mortgage rate on a 2 family than a 4? Is your insurance going to be higher if it's a 4 family?
While 11:19 is clearly an ass, I would want to know the answers to these so I could factor these costs into the offer. That being said, shouldn't your real estate attorney now be able to answer these questions? Your paying him/her already. Ask them and let us all know.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 9:52 AM
Denton,
I don't know if your architect is correct. We were advised differently. You do need to file legally all the changes you made, but as long as you are using it as less than the c of o mandates, you don't have to change that. Although of course, there may be financial reasons/ lower taxes to change this.
9:52 there are definitely advantages to having lower c of o -- but I think that officially changing it can also lead to your house being reassessed at a much higher value, so you definitely want good advice before undergoing this.
Hegelian, I will tell you that we have tried to find someone who could really advise us on this and it's quite hard. We have asked lawyer and architects for someone expert on this (especially in the Brooklyn townhouse market) and haven't really found someone good yet. So if you do find someone, please post their name here.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 11:32 AM
Hi Hegelian
Changing the C of O in your case involves two agencies at least, and may be a real advantage for you but depends on a number of factors. As they say the devil is in the details.
On one hand, you would be changing the Dept of Finance classification and probably see a huge tax break moving from 4 to 2. That's the incentive that most people have to do this. If the units you are combining have been rental apartments, it is likely that you would have to obtain a Certificate of No Harassment from the Dept of Housing to show you are not creating illegal evictions, and this process can take 2-4 months on its own.
And on the other hand, you would be changing the status of the building at the Department of Buildings too. Generally speaking, the lower the density of the housing the less restrictions there are -- these things ripple all the way through the code there are countless small instances such as a 1 family being allowed to use Romex wiring rather than B/X required at two or more, to provide one example you could find among hundreds.
Your comment about the DoB and inspections also brings up a misconception I seem to find occasionally on this board. What you would have to fix/repair/change in your case to comply with DoB regulations would depend on the specifics of your building, but you might not ever see an inspector. It makes sense if you consider that the city has only a handful of field inspectors and they always have more caseload than they can handle.
So for efficiency sake, the heavy review by the DoB takes place in your architect or engineer's filing. It's easier for the city to review and then hold a permanent record, certified by someone that has their career on the line if they make mistatements on the document. Architects and engineers can have their license pulled for filing false statements, etc which is one of the reasons they are placed in a position of trust that their documents reflect the actual conditions.
So non-compliant conditions are presented and resolved on paper in the filing submittal. When they have a chance to be corrected, they can be inspected, and a field inspection is part of a change of C of O (or at least it must be scheduled -- if they don't show up you get an automatic pass). But the field inspections are usually not "thorough" by any means they might not even look at all the floors. I have seen reviews where the inspector looks at one little thing, says fix that, and then leaves. I had another inspection and the inspector was terrified of the owner's dog and so left immediately (now to be clear i am not recommending bringing in a Rottie with a spiked collar in during an inspection. Not me.)
So you shouldn't be afraid of an inspection, in my opinion, and the process is a long one but mainly because of the bureaucracy. At the end of the day you may see some tax savings, it may also have implications for resale value. I would highly recommend you speak to an accountant familiar with this sort of work to see what you could gain from it.
Good luck on the project
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 3, 2008 11:53 AM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3601/is_23_51/ai_n9481458
Someone posted this article previously about whether a new c of o was needed. It seems a pretty definitive answer that it is NOT needed when combining 2 apartments to a larger one.
If someone disagrees, I hope they will post the reason why this law does not apply here. It seems you get a "letter of completion" from the building dept. but don't actually file for a new c of o.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 12:14 PM
Hi 12:14 you are absolutely right that combinations of two apartments into one do not require a change of C of O. The filing is called an Alteration-2 and has a less rigorous approval process (=faster).
But two points worth considering:
-- changing every apartment in the building at the same time would probably trigger a change of C of O, depending on the plan examiner's judgement.
--you wouldn't get the tax advantages, if any, without the C of O change.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 3, 2008 12:24 PM
Hey 12:14:
The only thing that article specifically states combining apts in a condo or coop. It doesn't mention private homes.
Posted by: denton at February 3, 2008 1:26 PM
I've been contemplating this issue for years as I have a C of O for a four family but use my building as a two family. People who tell you the taxes are lower on a two family aren't always right. My neighbors have a two family c of o on a building that is EXACTLY the same as mine and their taxes are higher by $1,000 per annum. Wacky, I know. But the tax system in this city is wacky, which is why you want to draw as little attention as possible to yourself at all times.
Posted by: Cobblekrill at February 5, 2008 1:18 PM
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