16.5 x 40' brownstone layout?

Please save yourselves a lot of time, and hire an architect.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 7:23 AM

The answer is Yes. But it depends on your needs and 7:23 is right; hire an architect to do some generic diagrams for you on an hourly basis.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 7:50 AM

7:23 here. I am an architect and I have dealt with people like yourselves many times, and I can read all the warnings signs here. This house isn't going to work for you. 16.5 x 40 is a dollhouse. Things can be done to "open it up" a bit, but I can tell that you are already too much at odds with this house for it to be made to work for you.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:33 AM

If you already have 1200 squ ft 3 bedroom, I think you are right that the duplex of a narrow brownstone is not going to give you any more space, and likely less, with the stairway, etc. Usually people moving from as much space as your apt. to a 3-story use the entire house.

The key to living in those narrow houses is to have a center stair. That way, for example, your top floor would have spaces the width of the house at either end, with the stairway only taking up the middle.

This is probably not what you want to hear, but my advice would be to try to live in the current duplex, with some clean up, for a while, and wait to renovate the entire house. Think about whether you definitely want to do a parlor level kitchen -- that's great for a 4-story triplex, but if you need bedroom space, are you eventually going to have a bedroom on the ground floor 2 floors below the other bedrooms? The best configurations for a 3-story I've seen have the kitchen on the ground level (with french doors leading to garden -- very nice) and dining/family room, 2nd level has half a beautiful living area and half master bedroom, and 3rd floor has 2 additional nice size bedrooms.

I'd run some numbers and see if the rent you get for a number of years on the ground floor pays for the additional costs of renovating into a top floor duplex and ground floor rental, especially if you plan to eventually take over the entire house. And, I assume you will want to take over the house relatively soon -- since you have more space in your current apartment than you would in your new top floor brownstone duplex.

Good luck.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:38 AM

This house isn't an appreciable enough size increase for you to move from your current space. Hang on until something matching more of your criteria comes on the market. It totally sounds like you'll be unhappy and want to move again soon if you settle for this house. At the 16 x 40, it also sounds like it will be extremely messy and expensive to even approach a semblance of what you're looking for.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:59 AM

Agree that you will likely find upper duplex to be a tight fit, coming from what sounds like a very comfortable apartment. Our 3 story 17.5 X 40 brownstone was configured as an upper duplex/ground floor rental when we bought it. The parlor floor is an open plan with walls removed and kitchen in the rear which makes it feel more spacious. Upstairs had two bedrooms with interior study/office that we used as a third bedroom.
We eventually took over the ground floor and added a bedroom/family room/new bath. These are not large houses, but we love our place.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 10:40 AM

What I get from the above is my first gut feeling, that this house is not big enough for you. (I long ago realized that my current and former 3-bdrm apartments were much more spacious than many houses.)

The last poster makes me realize that with enough money (and somewhere else to live while renovation is being done) you can transform anything - but it doesn't sound like you are looking for a place that needs that much reno to be livable.

Find a four-story brownstone.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:08 PM

lay it out on it's side. You'll get more space that way.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:09 PM

stick with your apartment (it sounds great anyway) or wait till a wider place comes up.
don't listen to what anyone says -- width is the single most important factor in buying a brownstone.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:39 PM

I own a 16 x 45 brownstone (three floors) and I have to say that I LOVE it. When I bought the place it was a real mess…rental on the top floor and duplex below. I hired an architect, converted the ground floor to a rental, did a modern, clean renovation and reside with my small family in the upper three bedroom duplex.

I ripped out the walls on the parlor floor to create an open plan kitchen/dining/formal living area (kitchen in the back with a deck over the garden). When you walk into the house there is a stair case directly in front of you and then a very large open arch into the living/dining area. I built a large skylight over the stairs to add more light. Upstairs, the master bedroom is pretty big and I added a large private bathroom and a wall of closets. The other two bedrooms are small…but honestly they serve the purpose of a child’s room and a TV room. There is also a second bath in the hallway. In a couple of years when we need more space we plan on taking over the ground floor and turning it into master suite. Also…I would turn the basement into a rec room. This is the nicest thing about owning a house…you can grow within the property. I would choose a skinny house over an apartment any day. My one complaint about the space is that there is no bathroom on the parlor floor (one on the ground and two upstairs). We could have added a ½ bath, but I felt it cut into the overall feel of the parlor floor space.

I have been in a lot of 20-foot brownstones and I have to say my place does not feel tiny in comparison. Other brownstones have more privacy and room separation, but I wanted a more open plan space, so the configuration works well for me. Does it feel small? Not to me! I lived in a 500 square foot apartment for years so this feels like a palace! Sure…if I had the money I would buy a bigger house, but to be honest I would want another floor…not necessarily a wider footprint. FYI…total renovation cost was 225,000. I still have some work to do in the house (I would love new windows)…but I think the place looks great.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:06 PM

Housesearcher - no one has a crystal ball, but from what I've seen since we bought a townhouse in mid 2005 in Cobble Hill; we looked in PS, CH, FG, BH, CG etc., is that there is not going to be any significant supply increase and in fact the opposite (as too many 25' wide ones are still too often cut up into Condo's). So if you find the right house then you should buy it now and not wait to discover that the price of these will continue to rise (perhaps at a slower pace) over the next few years.

That being said I don't know that I would buy a 16' - we settled on a 22' and finished the basement. We live on the parlor & garden and have a completely finished 8' ceiling height basement/come rec room/come children's play room. All up (including the below grade basement) we live in 3,000 and still have two 800 sq ft apartments to rent out.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:20 PM

We bought a 16.5-wide frame house 2 years ago. It was fully renovated when we bought and very nicely done! We live in the upper duplex (or you might say triplex because this house has the added advantage of an "attic" bedroom with its own 1/2 bath). We rent out the garden floor. I have to say that if we didn't have the attic BR this would not be enough space (we have 2 kids). If we could live on all 3 floors (even w/out attic), I'd be happy, but we have to rent garden floor to pay the mortgage! I'm pretty happy in a smallish space--our parlor floor has great light--separate rooms but still open enough that you can see from the back kitchen thru to front LR. We have skylights in all 3 bedrooms and a hallway, which adds light and feeling of space. My issue now is the neighborhood--if you love your neighborhood, that is a huge plus! I'm curious what price range you're looking at for a house this size that needs reno.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:33 PM

It sounds like you really want the house. It's hard to find a house you like and can afford and fits all your requirements. The house supply is diminishing, not increasing, as someone said.

We have a 20-foot wide house but I think the narrow houses are SO cute. There's a narrow-house prejudice around here that's unfair. Sure, it's better to have all 3 floors as a one-family when a house is narrow. But you can take over the whole house when the time comes and it makes sense financially.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:42 PM

OK, problem is, it's hard for anyone here to tell you what YOU want. But here's what we have:

Three-story, 2-fam brick townhouse, 16.67 x 46. We rent out the garden floor -- may take it over in a few years when kids are bigger. On the parlor floor, we knocked out the walls and did it open plan: this is key if you want to maximize space there. (There were no details to save and our tastes run to modernist to begin with.) Kitchen in back leads to a deck. I love the parlor, because the open space is configurable in different ways. There's a half bath on the parlor floor.

Top floor has a large master bedroom in front, full bath and a study in the middle, two bedrooms in back--which, to be honest, are small and very small. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably have kept them as one big room and had the kids share. But they're fine kids' rooms, and we've thought that we may reconfigure / move kids around down the road if we take over the whole house. Ultimately, our feeling is, use as much of the house as possible as common space: bedrooms are for sleeping and don't need to be big. But that's us.

Am I glad we bought the house? Oh my God. Best decision we ever made. Now, we moved from a smaller apartment -- 2BR, 1 1/2 Bath, maybe 900sf. But I would never want to be in even a well-laid out 3BR apartment. You can't compare to the flexibility, the option of either having income or extra space--and I just like living on multiple floors. We did a top-to-bottom, fairly major reno (nearly a gut really) for under $200K... but that was in 2003, with an unlicensed contractor. We probably got lucky, in that he actually did a great job. (As did our architect, who unfortunately no longer does single houses.)

That's us. As for you... I dunno, maybe you'd be happier in an 18 or 20 footer (I wouldn't kick the extra space out of bed), but whether you can afford that or are willing to make whatever tradeoffs you'd need to to get it... your call, dude. Good luck.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:08 PM

You should consider whether this house will be too small if you CAN'T take over the ground floor in few years (lots of people are in this position.) Your mortgage won't get smaller; your expenses, especially with renovation, will just go up and up, and you may continue to need that rental income - which will also go up. People think their earnings may go up, but they don't always go as fast and as far as you think. And then there are those unplanned things that happen in life that cost bucks.

Prices won't go down, that's for sure. And I think if you thought the 2 floors were big enough, you would be getting into contract, not asking here. Even in a larger brownstone, after living in a pre-war apartment (if it isn't a brownstone), your typical brownstone rooms will usually feel smaller than your typical pre-war apartment building rooms - I know, I've lived in both - that's an adjustment in feeling of spaciousness that you will have to make even if you have four floors.

Size of living space is a very personal thing - what feels spacious to one can feel cramped to another.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:26 PM

I've lived in the upstairs triplex of a 17.5' wide brownstone for about 20 years. The garden floorthrough provides rental income. Side staircase. All original detail (fireplaces, woodwork, etc.), which I kept; didn't tear out any walls, doors, etc. Room size has never been a problem as I made a conscious decision upon purchase to be very careful with furniture acquisition and not buy any without groundplan and tape measure in hand (would have done the same with a larger space anyway). Result: just the right furniture at just the right size, lots of open space, and control of consumption. And a large-feeling, livable space. Would I like a 20'er? Sure, but the house has still been a pleasure to live in, as well as the best investment of my life. Even without modifications, the narrower houses can be cheerful, livable, and spacious in feel - just takes a little planning.

Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 8:38 AM

housesearcher, I would go for it.

But I would set it up as luvtocook has with the kitchen/family room set up on the garden level. Would have access to that outdoor space. I think there is another thread in the forums about opening up the back wall with large windows.

Good luck! I am envious!

Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 8:51 AM

hi,
i'm a not quite licensed young architect, though i've been designing apartments (renovation and new) for about 3 years.

i think a 16.5 x 40 house, while relatively a wash spacewise because of the stair, can feel like a much more diverse space, and if it were me, I would prefer it.

is it possible in the future to put a setback roof top addition for a master bedroom as your equity and your family grows (as far as zoning floor area rights, i mean).

if you're interested in seeing possible layouts, i'd be willing to do some basic layouts on spec, and asking for payment only if you used the ideas and bought the house.

if you were interested in setting something up, we'll figure a way to get in contact, and go from there.

also, if you have already decided to take the house, and need an architect for DOB filing, I can recommend a few professionals.

guest designer.

Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 5:48 PM

We have a 20-foot wide house (I posted before) and after reading more of these posts I had more thoughts. I find even the wider houses can feel chopped up and narrow without the open floorplan. Our house does have the formal dining room separate from an enclosed galley kitchen, both of which are my personal preference. But the living room had various double-parlor walls ripped out before we bought it and that part is very open and spacious feeling. So for a more narrow house, I'd say take out every wall possible on the parlor floor and make it look like an open loft kitchen/eating/living space. It will not feel small or cramped, don't worry about that.

For the 2nd floor I don't think people should worry about kids' bedrooms being small. It's more important in remembering my own childhood to have the "room of one's own" even if it's small.

I look at home shows on tv and when I see those cavernous suburban subdivision houses with the massive rooms and cathedral ceilings it's like, omg, that is not intimate and comfortable in any way possible. Plus imagine what it costs to heat and cool them. Insanity. They'll all be torn down or reconfigured within a few years, those monstrosities, as fuel costs rise mark my words. I love the Brooklyn little-house lifestyle whether 20-foot or 17-foot wide.

Posted by: guest at February 17, 2008 3:43 PM