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February 20, 2008
100 k--how far can this go
Just closing on a brownstone and want to do work on the parlor floor (Ultimately this first project would be 'phase one' of an overall plan for the house.) What we are hoping to do in the short term is install new flooring, expand the kitchen, convert a full bath to a half, renovate the parlor floor fireplace and possibly open up the wall into the stairwell. Our overall budget for this one floor would be 100-
$150k (not including architect design fees or incidentals.)
Am I crazy to think we can do all this with this budget?
If you were an architect would you consider taking this gig?
I just want to make sure I'm not approaching architects and offending them or sending them into fits of laughter by even suggesting it...
Comments
How big is your parlor floor? How much of a change is the kitchen? We've been given total project budget quotes of about 175-200 to totally gut a parlor floor (16.5 x 40), put in kitchen where there is none, break down walls & reconfigure, all new everything (very little details to preserve). Some people even think we could do this floor for less. I think it depends on who you speak to, what kind of finishes you want, etc. I don't think this budget is laughable if you find the right architect and/or contractor...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 20, 2008 9:03 AM
Definitely depends on what you mean by "expand the kitchen" but the other things you mention seem doable for that price.
Any architect/contractor who laughs at six figures is an idiot. Even if its not enough to cover, there is no shame in getting an estimate. Don't worry about offending people.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 20, 2008 9:36 AM
Thanks for the responses Mrs. Limestone and Housesearcher. To answer your question as to the size of the parlor floor it is 16x42. The existing kitchen is quite small, (it only has a mini-fridge currently) and so we would want to expand it to a more livable size. Of course I'm not quite sure what this would entail either, but just wondering if it seems reasonable to engage architects at this price (100 to 150k). I've read some stories on the board of firms that balk if you have less then 200k of work for them.
Posted by: fortgreenest at February 20, 2008 10:05 AM
That amount of work sounds very do-able for your budget. The big variable is if your kitchen expansion means knocking down a load-bearing wall, in which case you run into a little more $$.
As far as budgets go, we let the architects give their estimates for our wish-list items, rather than coming to them and saying "we have $x to spend". At our initial meetings, they all floated approximate costs that were within our range...except for one guy, who didn't come out to the house, gave a ballpark number that was twice everyone else's, and told my husband he'd think about whether our project was interesting enough for him to take on (!!!). I think anyone for whom your project is too small will screen you out on the phone like that, and everyone who's interested enough to meet with you at the house is interested enough to take on the project.
Good luck!
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at February 20, 2008 10:50 AM
I would not listen to high-end renovators on this site, they all claim waaay inflated figures (or none at all, which seems to the norm, note renovation blogs where people are contantly asking "how much" and never getting a reply.)
Don't gut anything unless you have to. A waste of resources and unecessary contribution to the garbage stream. Sensitively patching and renewing will yield a livable if not perfect space for much less money. You have way more than enough for such a job. Kitchen w/o plumbing changes can easily be done for 15k for example.
And if an architect suggests you're not spending enough, get another one.
Posted by: cmu at February 20, 2008 10:54 AM
Have you budgeted enough for the architect? Do realize they will want 10-20% of the budget on top of the job.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 11:01 AM
When we renovated part of our house, the architect charged a fee for plans, permits, etc. and then charged by the hour. It was nowhere near 10-20% of the budget. I can't remember exactly, but it was more like 5-10%. My memory is a bit faulty, but I think it was $4,000 retainer, $2,000 upon completion of final plans plus $200/hr for construction management. The whole job cost was about $220,000 and the architect's fees were more like $10-12,000.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 11:26 AM
Yes we are prepared to pay up to %25 percent for architects fees. I feel it's better for me to share our budget up front so that we can be sure to find someone who is willing to work within it. Of course I realize there will be some unforseen costs, but better to work with someone who is interested in the challenge of staying within the lines.
Posted by: fortgreenest at February 20, 2008 11:38 AM
Are you kidding? OF course you could. Everyone on this site is so CRAZY how much they spend on these renovations. You are really getting taken for a ride...
If you want a great job done for less, forgo the architect (it really doesn't sound like you need one) and go straight to Anais Rogers, 646-460-0100 - she is a designer who works with her huband,Greg, a high end independent contractor. They both do amazing work, are totally reliable AND, as a bonus, are fun to work with.
By the way, for a 16x42 ft wide brownstone, there probably aren't any load bearing walls - As long as the beams span the whole width, 16 ft is narrow enough that you don't need support other than the outer brick walls. Make sure the spanning beams are doubled up at either end of the staircase opening.
(I know this because my house is 16.67 ft wide and I knocked out the whole wall that divides staircase from living room - makes the space look SO much bigger.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 12:18 PM
Just watch all the materials you choose. That's key and that's what puts people over budget, getting excited at the kitchen design place and going overboard. It might be hard to pass up fancy cabinetry, but do it, say no and pass it up. Same with appliances. The U.S. brand appliances are totally FINE. Don't worry about keeping up with the Joneses and you can do this within your budget.
If you want fancier cabinets and appliances someday then you put it in years from now when you can afford it. Spend the real money on the mechanicals in the kitchen, the walls, the permanent things. All the rest can be replaced later.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 12:30 PM
I know where OP is coming from--I just had an architect (Jeff Sherman of Delson or Sherman) balk at my project, which is not too far from the 150k mark. We had originally wanted to spend more (around 200-250k,) but the markets have been cruel recently, and things changed in the week since he and I met. When I approached him with my revised budget, I was met with a terse response: "Oh, that's a very different project isn't it--no, we would not be interested in a project of that scale--I wish we had known from the start."
Not exactly the friendliest reaction--he definitely made it seem like I had royally wasted his time!
So I definitely recommend being clear with your budget up front if you are looking to work with an architect. It will avoid hurt feelings all around. Good Luck!
Posted by: bklynrosie at February 20, 2008 12:36 PM
Bklynrose, Jeff Sherman has been a good friend and colleague of mine for twenty years now and I find your description simply unbelievable. His firm does set a minimum size for a project, which is a perfectly normal and natural business model for an office of that size. But as well as being a talented architect he is a consummate professional, extremely considerate and thoughtful, and your description as written above is simply not plausible to anyone who actually knows him.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 20, 2008 12:50 PM
Smokychimp:
This was not meant at all to be a personal attack.
I found Jeff to be lovely and professional upon our meeting. I think he was perhaps a bit miffed that he had spent time on a visit and putting together a proposal and then finding out we were below his minimum.
I think it's totally fair and reasonable that D+S should set a minimum project size, and was simply stating that if one is looking to hire an architect you should try and be as clear as possible regarding budget, to avoid situations such as this.
I was heartbroken we couldn't use Jeff--I think they do great work and wish the outcome had been different, but c'est la vie!
Posted by: bklynrosie at February 20, 2008 12:57 PM
Right, no problem, I just thought you were stepping up on my homeboy. You're right they do excellent work.
I would recommend Robert Schultz (at Khanna/Schultz). They will do smaller projects and they are absolutely great.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 20, 2008 1:06 PM
Since when is an $150k project a small one? Sheesh.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 1:11 PM
Smokychimp said:
"I find your description simply unbelievable"..."your description as written above is simply not plausible"
Okay so Smokychimp, bklynrosie's post was inappropriate and yet it was not inappropriate for you to outright say she's lying? That was so rude.
If we're not allowed to tell our honest experiences good AND bad, then I don't need to come to this site anymore. That is, if all this place provides is advertising for architects and contractors.
I come here looking for the straight story. Thank you, bklynrosie, for sharing. Everybody else here really appreciates it.
As for Jeff Sherman being such a great guy, I'm in a creative business, I've had to turn away many potential clients who weren't the right match for me, and there are plenty ways to tell someone that without sending them away offended.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 1:27 PM
The people on this site obviously have no conception of what it takes to run a business.
$150K is not a large project for a multi-person firm.
$150,000 X 20% fee is only $30,000. At a 3.0 multiplier that's only $10,000 in labor. If you average a team of people working on the job making $25-$30/hr that gives you only 400 hours total to do the entire job. That's 10 weeks of work; 2.5 months. That doesn't really sustain a practice for very long. As a business you need to make a decision to take on projects that are going to keep your employees and yourself gainfully employed for longer than 2 months.
Obviously some phases take longer than others, but you'd need to have 10 of these projects in your office at the same time in order to sustain having an employee.
So, it's a small job.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 1:54 PM
Smokychimp,
How much do architects charge either as a % of the job or on an hourly basis? What is the range?
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 3:07 PM
Except, 1:54, nobody here even once said they should HAVE to take the job. Nobody. They just said don't be rude snobs about it, that's all. It's hardly some kind of outrageous suggestion.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 3:12 PM
So basically this is the reality of the brownstone market according to the experts on the Brownstoner website: you HAVE to use an architect, if you don't you're a "cheap" loser (a refrain we hear many times on Forum on many threads); and architects ONLY take on projects that cost $250,000 and above. Therefore, if you can't afford to spend more than $250,000 on renovations alone, you are not allowed to own a house in Brooklyn.
Nice to see there aren't any elitists promoting exclusivity around here. Because as we know, Brooklyn is so liberal, diverse, cool and authentic and nothing like Manhattan.
Come on! If there hadn't been tons of people with moderate incomes buying brownstones in the 70's, 80's and early 90's in the now blue-chip neighborhoods of Brooklyn, and fixing the houses gradually over the years on the cheap, there would be NO Park Slope as it is now. Gentrification started with a wave of artists and academics and people who were not wealthy. Nobody says you have to fix up a whole house all at once for lots of money for it to be done right. I've lived in historic houses in historic neighborhoods all my life since college, and this is the way those who truly love old houses have always done it. If you want an all-new interior all at once, and nothing lumpy or old looking in it, buy a condo.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 3:24 PM
Really - brownstones are SO easy to renovate without an architect - just look at the floorplans of brownstones listed at the real estate sites and pick one you like that has similar dimensions to your house. There are really only so many possible layouts - it's really stupid to pay an architect.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 4:46 PM
You should be able to find a single architect (or very small firm; i.e. 4 employees) to do this work for you. But you may have trouble finding a firm that has multiple employees to do this work for you. Your budget is small, so the fee will be small. Fortunately for you, this city is full of 1-5 person firms, so even though the job is small, there should be plenty of architects who will do this for you.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 6:37 PM
Don't believe the hype. There are plenty of architects out there who would be psyched to work with you with this budget. Personally, I don't really understand the % of renovation budget as a fee model---it seems to reward going over budget etc. Hire an architect either by the hour or for a flat fee (in which case you should pay them in installments). Your budget should have nothing to do with their pay scale.
As someone who started their reno without an architect (but now has one) --I can tell you that if I could go back and do it over again--I would. A good architect can really guide you through the process but you should not have to pay through the nose for that service.
Posted by: HomeSweetstuy at February 20, 2008 7:03 PM
Hang on here, % renovation fee is not the only way architectural or design firms work. It's the way they almost always work on larger projects, but on small projects (and don't haze me for saying the industry definition of small project is under $1 million) anything goes -- flat fee, percentage, whatever you can agree on. In terms of percentages, the ranges talked about above are high -- I think it's closer to 7-12% average with 15% toward the higher end firms. I worked for Philip Johnson for ten years, and never saw him demand a commission of more than 12%. If he didn't command it, what are us little ducks going to do?
The unknown about rates is understandable since it is collusion (Sherman Anti-trust etc) to fix rates within an industry. Architects can't discuss it, and generally don't, and the AIA can't recommend suggested rates for work.
There are plenty of small firms around will take on a project no matter how small. It so happens that when a firm crosses a threshold of about 8-10 people, as 1:54 posts it no longer makes economic sense to work on projects that cannot meet certain profit.
As 7:03 suggests, if you are working on a budget of 100-150k there are PLENTY of young and hungry, talented people out there who will do the work. And if it's one of their first projects you can be assured that you will get serious attention to your project, far more than the established firm to be honest.
Posted by: Smokychimp at February 20, 2008 8:28 PM
Smokychimp,
New York architects charge more like 10%-25% for their fees. I'm talking strictly residential work, though. I don't know any NY architect who charges less than 14% for "custom" or "high end residential" myself. 7-12% are Midwest fee basis rates. If they are doing less than that, they are providing a much, much lower level of service than anyone deserves to have.
On the rest of your comments, though, I agree.
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 10:00 PM
If I were paying 14-25% fee for an architect it would be for a building I bought dirt cheap and was gutting completely.
I'd NEVER waste that kind of money on simply installing a kitchen and bathroom. Absurd. You can buy all your appliances and really nice ones, for that chunk of change.
Posted by: guest at February 21, 2008 1:28 PM
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