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January 16, 2008
How to make sure if it's 2 fam or 3 fam???
Here is my situation.
I bought a limestone townhouse lately. It's 3 family townhouse that I still believe. One day before closing, our attoney told me " it's not sure if your townhouse is 3fam, maybe 2 fam. it's not black and white because of pre-war townhouse." Then our attorney said he can't give the further information and he told us not to investigate, not to call city or BOD and not to bring up the topic now and just wait until I recieve multi house registration (not sure, something like that). He said that it'll be okay if I recieve it, but if I don't recieve, it's a problem. It's 3 story and 3 apartments.
Property shark says it's 3 fam and all houses in same block are 3 fam. Our tax is for 3 fam. Electric meters are 3 and gas meters are 2. There are no official mailbox and just 2 non locked boxes used as mailbox. It's clearly stated that 3 fam in the bank appraisal. All documents during the closing were not stated as 3 fam, but multi family or 2-3 fam category. Anyhow I love my townhouse so much no matter what, but I need to know! I hope this won't cause me any problem. Anybody who have or had same experience? Please give more info and share your similar experience with me. Tnank you....
Comments
There should be a certificate of occupancy record at the Department of Buildings for your property, many of them can be easily accessed online at:
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/bsqpm01.jsp
type in the address and then hit the button for the C of O, it should list the exact description. If it's not there, it's possible that it is not online and the record is at the DoB, or that the building doesn't have a certificate of occupancy, in that case the same site has the Department of Finance classification which would be helpful too.
Posted by: Smokychimp at January 16, 2008 10:40 AM
What you need is a hard copy of the C of O of your house. Your Certificate of Occupancy. If your house is in Brooklyn - you go to Joralemon Street with the block and lot number. Do not trust the realtor or even Property Shark: both were wrong on our brownstone. Above all: do not assume. If you are not in Brooklyn, call 311 and ask where you go to obtain a copy of the C of O of the house.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 10:49 AM
Your attorney sounds like an idiot!
The legal profession in the united states has gone to the dogs.
You have my sympathy.
Posted by: Ysabelle at January 16, 2008 11:02 AM
Your house may NOT have a C of O. Many places built before 1938 and still used for the same purpose don't. You can best check at the Department of Buildings web site to see if there's a C of O.
Absent a C of O I'm not sure how to solve the 2/3 family question. Do 3 families get registered with HPD? If so, their link will tell you if it's been registered.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 11:28 AM
Are you going to use it as a 1, 2, or 3 family? I'm not sure it matters if you use it as only a 1-2. If you use it as a 3 and it is a 3, I think you need another means of egress (fire escape) or a sprinkler system. If you have one of those or only use it as a 1-2 family, what does it matter. Maybe someone here knows more.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 11:54 AM
Thank you for your info.
Since before 1938, my house doesn't have C fo O on DOB and no info on HPD as well. I guess there are many multi family houses that were built before 1938. Don't those owners care of 2 or 3 fam? I am so curious still... Is this not big problem?
Posted by: momo at January 16, 2008 11:56 AM
It's not a big problem. If there is no C of O (common for pre 1938 buildings), then just let things be. If it is taxed as a 3-family, even if you got a mortgage as a three family, as long as there is no C of O then you are not obliged to do things like put in sprinklers or a fire escape. The only problem would be if you tried to make it a legal 3 family (as opposed to a de facto three family), by paying a ton of money to have a 3 family C of O made for the building. I would suggest leaving well enough alone. It's a very common status for multi-family pre-war houses in New York.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:24 PM
I will use as 3 fam, I live there and 2 tenants will move in. fire escape or sprinkler system for 3 fam? Thank you for your info.
Posted by: momo at January 16, 2008 12:28 PM
12:24, does that mean you can legally operate a 3 or 3+ family without fire escape/sprinklers if you don't have a c of o? wow, that's cool. I'm house hunting and have seen many multi-fam w/ one of these that I'd like to rip out. I haven't been sure if it would be allowed. If you have a legal 3+ family that you only use as a 2 family, can you take out the sprinklers or take off a fire escape? Is there any other motivation to change a c of o from 3+ family to 2?
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:39 PM
12:24, bad advice.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:41 PM
There area many different regulations surrounding a 2family or 3 family. It's a very important distinction that you should get resolved. Even if the place doesn't have a CO, it's still important.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:43 PM
Wow, 3rd post on Forum in the last couple weeks about grossly incompetent RE attorneys.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 1:11 PM
C of O status and DOB regulations about fire safety features for a 3+ family dwelling are two separate issues. Your mortgage company and insurance company might not care about the C of O as long as the way the loan/policy is issued complies with your use of the building. However, they damn well WILL care if you have a fire and don't have sprinklers and fire escapes for your tenants. You're also opening yourself up to huge liability if there is a fire and one of your tenants is injured or killed. Your building will be in violation of fire codes, your insurance will deny payment, and you will be on the hook for any lawsuits filed by your tenants or their survivors.
I agree with Ysabelle that your attorney is an idiot. Get a better one - not a general practice attorney, one who handles real estate in NYC - and get his/her advice.
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at January 16, 2008 1:12 PM
12:24 is probably that incompotent attorney. Here is the thing. If you don't have a C of O (I dont' have a C of O), you don't have a problem per se! However, if you are using your building as a 3 family, YOU NEED A FIRE ESCAPE. If your family is registered as a 3 family, you can us it as a 1, 2, or 3 family. However, if your house is registered as a 2 family, and you use it as a 3 family, you could be up shit's creek if you try and get a tenant thrown out of your building. You'll have to prove in a court that your building is indeed a 3 family, or risk losing all the forfeited rent rolls. etc.
If you're just curious, don't sweat it. But if you NEED to know, you need to figure it out. Chances are, if property shark has you down as a 3 fam. you've probably got a 3 fam.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 1:51 PM
To 1:51pm
Why do you think property shark is the gospel for real estate accuracy?
If you are dealing with legal stuff or money, You have to double-check all your information to make sure it is accurate.
Trusting somebody is one subject.
Knowledge is another.
I prefer knowledge and make my own decisions.
plain and simple.
Posted by: Ysabelle at January 16, 2008 2:09 PM
what does the title report say?
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 5:12 PM
I always thought that you were required to have either a Fire Escape or Sprinkler if you had 3+ apartments. Up to 3 you are fine. 3+ is defined as commercial which triggers the other requirements. Can somebody advise? I am looking at a 3-family in Crown Heights with no C of O, that is classified as a 3-family.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 5:16 PM
as i understand it, if you've got a grandfathered 3 fam (i think this rule changed in the early 80's) then you need to have a fire escape. if you convert to a 3 family today then you need to install sprinklers. so the rule on fire escape/sprinkler changed only recently.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 7:45 PM
The biggest problem is with the DOB. You need to hire an architect or an expeditor to look into this situation at the DOB and advise. Its eally a non issue until you try to do renovtions or try and sell and the buyer has a real attorney.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 8:40 PM
If your house was built as a 3 before something like 1920, then it is very possible that it has no actual c of o and is grandfathered, as there were no c of o's before a certain year. That wouldn't mean it's not a legal 3. Anything over 2 is a multiple dwelling and must have either a fire escape or a sprinkler system, don't know the rules as to what determines which, or if there are any. Go down to the buildings dept and look up the folder for your house as well as all the houses in your cluster and see what you can learn from whatever isn't missing from the folders.
Posted by: guest at January 18, 2008 4:41 PM
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