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January 7, 2008
Heating costs survey
hey all,
new homeowner here, and I want to get a sense of heating costs for brownstones. I've got a 3200sf 3-story with a 30 year old (give or take) gas-fired hot water boiler. The windows are well sealed, but probably over a decade old as well. My keyspan bill for Nov-Dec was about $800.
How much might I expect to save with a new, more efficient gas boiler? And how much are most other brownstoners paying a month for heat?
Thanks!
Comments
We were told the newer boilers weren't always more efficient because they are not made of cast iron like the old ones and they cool off more quickly. The old cast iron ones hold the heat. The newer ones have to work harder, using more gas to do so. Ours is old, but because of these reasons we were told by a few different guys we should keep using it for a few more years.
But $800 for Nov. and December is high. It wasn't even that cold much of that time. Do you feel drafts around the windows, when you stand near them? If so, hang heavy lined drapes on the windows. Open them on sunny days to let the sun warm the house, and always close them at sundown. Also cool off your house to the coolest degree you can stand, after you go to bed at night.
Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:46 PM
Actually having a boiler holding heat could be disadvantageous because the residual heat then is shed in the basement/ boiler room where it is not required or goes up the flue when the pump circulating your water to the radiators shuts off. Heat should be sent to the emitters (radiators / baseboard) and not stored in the boiler.
In any case, the above are just isolated considerations, the heating system should alwyas be considered as a whole (house envelope, boiler, emitters, etc.) and needs to be designed properly to be efficient.
For example, some of the newer high efficiency boilers achieve their efficiency through modulating their output in response to demand and the outside temperature. They also extract heat from the flue gases by condensing them. However, they have to be sized right too. Most current boilers were sized for the days of little insulation and leaky windows. There was also the philosophy of bigger is better: let's put in the biggest boiler we can drag down the basement steps. They are often now too big for the house, and therefore waste a ton of heat. Think of stop and start driving, or heating half a cup of water in a stockpot, or putting a train engine in a small car. Most of the heat/ fuel is wasted in these instances, because it goes toward the operation of the boiler/ engine and not toward actually heating the water. Large boilers also wear out their components because they have to stop and start so often.
Here are a few things you can do in addition to the energy saving measures recommended above:
1. Get a heat loss calculation of your house. You can find heat loss calculators online. That will tell you how much heat your house loses.
2. How efficient is your boiler? How much would you save if you got a boiler with higher efficiency numbers, sized right for your heat-loss.
3. Visit www.heatinghelp.com
There are many artcles, etc. that will help you understand the heating system. Also search the Wall (the questions section of the site) for relevant posts.
Posted by: ohiise at January 7, 2008 4:09 PM
Our home is 2 floors + basement, for total of 3000+ sq ft and we keep the thermostat at 67 during the day and 70 at night. Our heating bill for Nov/Dec was $375. Our gas boiler is over 10 years old (15 or 20 I guess).
Posted by: cornetor at January 7, 2008 5:43 PM
The residual heat in the basement from the boiler room helps us in our case, because we have our TV room/den down there.
Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 5:55 PM
$446.73 gas bill for this past Nov. & Dec. House is 3 stories, aprox 2900 sq. ft.; windows triple glazed, but 30 years old; aprox. 45 year old hot air furnace, tested as 74% efficent in an energy audit. Temps. 65 day/55 night.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 7, 2008 6:05 PM
Holy crap! They made trple glazed units 30 years ago?
Posted by: johnife at January 7, 2008 7:04 PM
johnife,
Late '70s, gas crisis,Carter administration--there was as much interest in energy-saving then as now. In-between it went out of fashion.
These were Marjo aluminum windows--triple glazed, with a thermal break inside the metal frame. They averaged $420 each for my 18 windows--$1033 when adjusted for inflation. They were the best replacement windows I could find. The guy who replaces balances for me when they go says that this company went out of business because their product was too good (and expensive) but IMO they were FAR more substantially made than any others I saw.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 7, 2008 8:17 PM
>>>
This might be the craziest nonsense I've ever heard.
Unbelievable that not only did someone say it, but someone's repeating it.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 7, 2008 11:21 PM
I'm referring to guest 3:46's first paragraph.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 7, 2008 11:23 PM
house is about 2700 sqft, 4 stories, temps usually 68/55 with a weil-mclain boiler, 3 years old. nov-dec bill was $309. i think a new boiler would be a darn good investment.
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at January 8, 2008 12:32 PM
100 year old three story attached brick-2100sf new windows-new skylight!!!!-30 year old gas boiler circulating hot water system with cast iron old style radiators last bill $180 keep house at 73 day and 68 night w/ computerized thermostat. New blown in insulation at roof. By far the biggest heat loss was from our old skylight at the top of the stairs. It was single pane and had an open vent at the top.
Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 1:36 PM
Get yourself on a balanced billing plan with Keyspan...makes budgeting much less problematic.
Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 3:50 PM
This is not a direct comparison, but may help anyway. You may want to consider combining heat and hot water in the same system. We didn't, but have heard it can be an even better way to go.
We renovated a 120-year-old, 2-story, 3200 sq ft house 3 years ago, and installed an all-new radiant hot water heating system, lots of roof and facade-wall insulation, new double-pane windows, and a large Heat-Mirror-glazed (tm!) skylight. Our boiler is rated at 84% efficiency; thermostats set at 68 24/7. Average monthly gas bill for heat and hot water combined is $240. (Anybody know a rule of thumb for breaking down the heat vs. hot-water components of an average gas bill? Is it based on number of people in household?)
Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 5:30 PM
OP here. A qualification. Our bill is for heat and hot water. The $800 bill was for two months (nov and dec). Jimmy Legs, was your bill for both months? This skylight issue is interesting as well. We have a very large one which might be the culprit. Any skylight insulating tips short of replacement? Does that plastic sheeting work?
Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at January 9, 2008 11:56 AM
HAVE 120 YEAR OLD 4 STORY 4800 SQ FT 4 UNIT HOUSE. 4 YR OLD BURHAM BOILER 84% EFF., AO SMITH 75 GAL HW HEATER (SAME AGE)-PAID $760 FOR NOV /DEC. AVERAGES TO .16 PER SQ FT. DATETIME TEMP 72 (WE HAVE 2 BABIES IN HOUSE) 68 AT NIGHT.
Posted by: guest at January 19, 2008 3:36 PM
I just paid my first heating bill ever...3400 sq ft home, 7 yr old gas furnace & hot water heater...$615. Holy shit!
Heat was at 70/65
Now at 65/58
Posted by: moreteasir at February 12, 2008 2:09 PM
We have a oil fired Iron Fireman steam heat boiler for our 4000 sf house installed in 1946 which we are planning to replace this fall with a gas fired steam Burham boiler. Are there any recommendations for Burhams? Dorothy
Posted by: guest at July 16, 2008 4:45 PM
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