Forum
« Items missing from condo that are in the offering plan? recommend a sidewalk guy? »
November 20, 2007
Fort Greene- AY impact
I am sorry for posting about this if this is old news but I'm really hoping to get some honest insights and info. My husband and I are just starting to consider FG in our home search and I'm trying to learn more about it.
I was wondering what people thought about the AY impact specifically on FG. Even more specifically, I've seen that shadow analysis of the shadow AY will cast and I'd love to learn more about this. How much of the day's direct sunlight do you think will be blocked? Summer vs. winter? It's hard to get a sense from that map. I realize that part of the day will be shaded over, but does that mean all day?
Any info/advice/insight on the AY impact would be appreciated. I'm not terribly interested in the blanket "AY will destroy FG" type statements but if you really feel that way, I'd love to know concrete reasons as to why.
Thank you!
Comments
Wow are you in for disappointment! Prepare for the slew of A-Y-E responses all from people trying to buy houses in the area and scare people away...
However, I do have a constructive comment. Do you (or others) remember all the people that held up those umbrellas in the shadow of the Time Warner Center proposal? I think if you bought on the day of that protest you would have seen a pretty impressive return on your investment!
Don't get me wrong it has been a little sad to stand in the middle of FG park and see the condos rise around the (distant) edge but as we live in a city with limited housing resources I am resigned to having to potentially give up my "sunlight" to live in an area that gets better by the day (more services,) has great transport and some of the best housing stock inhabited by some pretty cool people.
Full disclosure - I do live/own in Fort Greene and wouldn't trade it for the world. A bunch of people will tell you the opposite but I have yet to hear of one person leaving FG because of the Atlantic Yards Effect and there is no evidence in property prices to suggest it. I am continually amazed by the relative wealth of people that are moving in - they are all people who have choices about where they live.
With that good luck and gird your loins for the dreaded onslaught and, dare I say it, at least one cut and paste from a news article about subprime ended with the immortal words "some day this war is going to end"
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 11:36 AM
Can you post a link to this shadow analysis map you mention?
I'd also like to point out that nobody seems willing to lower prices in north park slope because of AY either. I looked at a place on St. Marks a couple of weeks ago and mentioned it to the broker. She said it wouldn't be visible. On a map it will be 2 blocks away - very visible and probably motivating the sale.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 1:44 PM
In terms of how close you're prepared to be to AY, walk around the area as much as possible to determine your own comfort zone. Establishing a two-block buffer zone around the footprint that you would then avoid is probably reasonable. In FG, anything north of Lafayette and east of Washington shouldn't suffer construction impacts. To the south and west, your exposure will be greater.
Traffic is another issue entirely and will impact neighborhoods for miles around. Certainly Flatbush, Atlantic, Fulton, the BQE and, of course, the bridges will see more volume and gridlock than ever before. A lot of local car trips will become hard to justify/endure so look closely at local, walkable amenities. For example, that car ride from Bed-Stuy or Crown Heights to Red Hook to shop at Fairway may turn into a complete non-starter.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:25 PM
The potential for construction congestion alone would drive me away from anything remotely close to that area. For example, a Times study highlighted gridlock points all the way down Atlantic to the water.
A lot of people's lives are gonna be made awfully unpleasant by several hundred million tons of materials and equipment being trucked through our streets.
Go (away) Nets.
Posted by: Johnny at November 20, 2007 2:40 PM
First, it all depends on where in FG you're moving to. Obviously, it will have more of an impact on properties nearest to the footprint. I haven't seen the shadow study you mention but I'd be curious to have a look.
In general terms, if it's property values you're worried about, I don't think you have much to worry about. If anything the density of people will likely bring a more robust economy and higher property values (and the downside: higher taxes)
If it's quality of life issues, you may want to read up more about the impact the development will have on Atlantic Yards Report and the DDDB site. I moved into Fort Greene three years ago, and I have vigorously opposed the AY project on many grounds -- it's insanely out of scale with the surrounding neighborhood, it will increase traffic in already highly congested intersections along Flatbush and Atlantic, and the city has yielded way too much in terms of tax breaks and project oversight. the abuse of eminent domain is a disgusting violation of basic property rights by a greedy developer.
while the ultimate environmental impact of the development is unknown, it's going to be worse than Ratner's study indicates. Whether the worst of the doomsday scenarios comes true, there's no doubt that it will be much harder to navigate the area once streets are demapped -- just getting from FG through the AY footprint to the Park and the rest of the Slope will be more of a challenge than it is now. Parking congestion and traffic in our area will be worse, and the arena itself will be a very mixed bag -- whatever it does for Brooklyn pride, it will also create bottlenecks, and the portfolio of businesses that spring up in its footprint may not be to everyone's liking.
That said, I still believe Fort Greene will continue to be not just a viable, but a great neighborhood to live in, for the simple reason that no development can strip away everything that made us want to live there. FG park will always be there. The beautiful Pratt campus will always be there. whatever gentrification ensues, the mix of people will always be diverse and interesting. there are families and businesses that have deep roots here and they're not going to leave just because of AY. I plan to stay at least until my kids are grown and move on ...
Posted by: Vanderman at November 20, 2007 2:43 PM
The current plan, aka Ratner's plans for AY are the worst thing to happen to Brooklyn since the Dodgers left for LA.
Will that impact Ft. Green? In a nutshell, hells yea. Say so long to your light. And Say hello to traffic, plumbing and water problems. OH yeah, and you'll have tenst of thousands of additional commuters fighting with you on the trains.
You've really opened pandora's box with this question.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:44 PM
"Wow are you in for disappointment! Prepare for the slew of A-Y-E responses all from people trying to buy houses in the area and scare people away..."
Interesting how you try to spin this to make it about people opposed to the project rather than the impact of the project on the neighborhood. A wise buyer would do well to spend more time on the real impact of AY. Try the websites http://www.dddb.net and http://atlanticyardsreport.blogspot.com/. If you are considering buying near AY it is worth your time to search these sites for information on traffic and light (shadow) issues. There is a lot of information there.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:47 PM
East of Washington Avenue is the middle of Clinton Hill, not FG. I would also say that anything north of Greene Ave (rather than Lafayette) will be spared any serious issues due to the construction.
However, it sounds like the questions you are asking is what the effect will be post-construction. I think there are three significant negative issues to consider: (1) Sunlight, (2) Parking, and (3) Subways. I don't think AY will bring down prices by itself. (Disclosure -- I live 4 blocks from the site, but I am not anti-AY, although I loathe aesthically the Gehry design for the arena.)
Sunlight will be something of a bummer for certain areas, especially during the Nov-Jan time period when the sun is at its most southerly and thus most likely to be blocked by the towers. You should look at the sunlight projections and maybe consider hiring a design planner once you have a specifc property in mind.
Parking is going to suck -- no two ways about that. OTOH, if the city moves to zone parking as part of the congestion plan, the parking will get only worse rather completely fall apart.
Subways -- this is hard to predict, but I would not be keen to start using the Atlantic-Pacific stations. I doubt that it will siginficantly impact G or the C train stations.
In other words, if you are looking at Clermont or Adelphi and DeKalb, no problems. If you are looking at South Portland and Hanson, then put some thought into what you want out of a house or apartment.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:56 PM
A couple of addenda to the above, which are generally astute and objective:
1. I read the Atlantic Yards Report on a regular basis (despite the fact that I think it is getting less objective, a sad irony that is a whole 'nother subject.) If you want to understand project impacts, you should familiarize yourself with the environmental impact statement (EIS), even if you think, as I do, that it contains inaccuracies. (btw, Vanderman, it's ESDC's study, not Ratner's.) The EIS is on-line at www.empire.state.ny.us/AtlanticYards/FEIS.asp.
2. If you want to imagine the visual impact, I recommend getting a sense of how the existing Bank of New York building (and perhaps other landmarks) relate to the planned buildings, including relative heights. Then, when standing somewhere--the street where you just looked at a listing; the window of what might be your kid's bedroom--you can extrapolate how the planned project will look from a given location. Whenever I stand on South Portland now, I already "see" Atlantic Yards.
3. Not to diminish the real impacts, bear in mind that shadow impacts change. They move with the sun, both over the course of the day and from season to season. The closer you are to the project, the more frequently a site will be impacted. And don't forget, the shadows extend to the north. I had to laugh when Community Board 6 complained about shadows in Park Slope. Musn't be a gardeners on the community board.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 3:13 PM
Link to Shadow Map--they also have other charts and images (see sidebar):
http://www.southoxford.com/pages/shadows.html
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 3:40 PM
This one's my fave--
http://www.southoxford.com/pages/flightpath.html
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 3:47 PM
The main issue with this whole Atlantic Yards issue will be the tremendous increase in congestion and people. There will be 15,000 new resident in those three blocks, as well as throngs of visitors for every single Arena event(not just the games, but concerts, etc.) Many reports have said it will be the densest residential area in the country.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 4:20 PM
"most dense"--sorry. I'm writing with two toddlers on my lap (babysitting, not mine!)
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 4:22 PM
The notion that AY will only cause traffic problems along Atlantic and Flatbush doesn't pass muster with me. The dearth of large trucks and equipment on these streets will push everyone else to the side streets - in a similar manner that BQE traffic led to the gridlocking of Clinton. Plus, there's no restriction on construction vehicles travelling down side streets themselves - and there's no restriction on WHEN they're allowed to barrel down our side streets.
There'll be many previously beautiful blocks all over Brooklyn that will become rush hour parking lots as soon as this mess starts being built.
Posted by: Johnny at November 20, 2007 4:33 PM
Of course there are restrictions on through trucks on sidestreets. I see them being ticketed all the time.(Okay maybe not all the time!)
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at November 20, 2007 4:45 PM
Hi all, OP here. Thanks for your comments.
We are primarily interested in places that are in the AY footprint b/c that same footprint is the most convenient to the Atlantic Ave subway station, which we'd really like to be close to. My husband works in midtown and commute is very important to us. We strongly considered a house on St. Marks a few months ago and did a thorough AY impact analysis (personalized to us, I mean) and in the end, we decided it was wasn't going to bother us. However, the FG side of AY is more heavily impacted by lost sunlight and that's what I'm really trying to understand and evaluate.
I would hate to move to Brooklyn in the hopes of creating a better atmosphere for my young family and then realize that we're going to lose all access to direct sunlight when we're at home.
Since I'm not smart enough to understand how many hours a day FG will be in the shade, I was hoping someone else would be able to assess that. I'm trying to understand if, based on the position of the towers, it's likely that we'll be in the shade for the majority of the daylight hours all year long. (If that is the case, FG is just not for us, although that doesn't mean that everyone would feel the same way). Unfortunately I dont have a specific address to assess b/c I don't have a specific address in mind. I'm just referring to the prime FG area.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!
Posted by: U510545 at November 20, 2007 5:32 PM
The address above is incorrect. The Atlantic Yards Report is at
www.atlanticyardsreport.com
I live in Fort Greene on Lafayette and am VERY much annoyed that our winter sun will be stolen from us if these towers get built.
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 6:40 PM
The truck traffic will be horrendous...and the subways at rush hour will be unbearable...already are supercrowded...they'll be stuffed to the gills!
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 6:50 PM
The subways WILL be stuffed to the gills, and as usual, the MTA will not increase trains or frequency, they'll probably just decrease them. So the commute will be absolutely impossible. And yes, you will be in shadow in most of Ft. Greene, albeit at different times of the day. But don't complain, you'll just be told that it's the price of progress, and the most of Manhattan is in shadow, and just deal with it, it's the future of Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 12:17 AM
Wow don't we all know how to predict the future.
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 6:55 AM
Dear OP, You really need to satisfy yourself on this issue and do your own research -- saying you're not smart enough and wanting someone else to assess the situation for you doesn't really cut it. I understand your concerns but your question is frankly a little too technical for the pundits on this site (albeit, some of them reasonably well informed pundits). Go online -- especially to AY Report -- and do the legwork for yourself. Also walk around the area as much as possible. Bear in mind that the main apt tower of Atlantic Terminal Houses (the project on Carlton and Atlantic) is about 30 storeys high so whatever shadow that casts will be comparable to the future towers of AY -- which are estimated to range from a high of 60 (the so-called Miss Brooklyn at the corner of Flatbush and Atlantic) to a low of 25-40 in the eastern/residential part of the site. Btw, you misspeak when you say you are looking for a place "in the footprint". The footprint refers to the AY construction site itself, ergo if you move into the actual footprint expect to see your home demolished very soon!
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 10:51 AM
Most of the most beautiful blocks in Fort Greene, e.g. South Portland, South Oxford etc have such huge trees on them that those brownstones never get any light anyway.
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 10:54 AM
It's true that the lower floors are shady, but the top floors and the backyards usually get remarkable light, even in winter, in the AM or PM depending on which way they face.
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 10:58 AM
South Portland is the darkest, most dismal and melancholy block I've ever seen in Brooklyn. I don't get the appeal.
Posted by: guest at November 21, 2007 7:14 PM
10:51- OP here. Good suggestions and that's helpful to know about the Atlantic Terminal houses.
Posted by: guest at November 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.