Is Ditmas Park "fringe"?

No one knows what will happen to the real estate market. My advice to you -- buy something you love, can afford (and no complicated mortgages), and would be willing to stay in for a long long time --as many as 10 years -- to sit out a falling market. You have a 50% chance your apartment will appreciate, and you can sell whenever you want. But, if there is some drop (not an unlikely probability), you can sit tight and wait for the market to recover, because it eventually will. You may not see the gains of the last 5 years, but if you can stick it out indefinitely, your purchase will not be a bad buy.

If there's a chance you will have to move in the next few years, and you are thinking of a coop with strict subletting policies (like 2 year maximums, for instance), you should wait unless you can risk a loss. I know people who lost money in the last Manhattan real estate downturn because they couldn't sell the apartment for what their mortgage was, and after 2 years subletting, had an empty apartment on which they were paying a huge maintenance and mortgage (they lived out of town). They could handle the loss, but if you aren't prepared to do so, or won't stick it out until the market recovers (which could take 5 or more years), don't buy.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 12:58 PM

I agree generally with 12:58. The fundamentals -- quality of apartment, price, amenities of location, schools, whatever's of value to you in a residence -- are most important. And if you are planning to stay there for a while (I'd say at least five years, preferably more), I wouldn't worry too much. But I would be very careful if you think there are factors -- potential changes in family size, work location, etc. -- that might cause you to want or need to move sooner than that. The people I knew who had trouble between 1988 and 1994 were people who suddenly had a bigger family, divorce, or the like and had to move.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 3:37 PM

Not sure I buy the concept of a "fringe" neighborhood from which people will flee en masse if the economy goes south. I'm trying to think of one in the city...and I just can't. There are probably some neighborhoods that are developing (read gentrifying) more slowly than others, but a retreat? Don't think so. Not when Manhattan is out of reach for so many upper middle class people.

I would guess that Ditmas and areas south and east of PP will continue to gain fans, esp. if the proposed Fiske historic district goes through and the F train goes express again. It's the accumulation of little infrastructure improvements that would give me optimism about buying there.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 4:01 PM

i wouldn't buy a coop there because i think it's too far, and you could get more financial security buying a condo in a closer safe neighborhood like williamsburg.

can understand that many love the houses there, but a coop? hmmmm

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 4:17 PM

not too far with Q or B trains. great area. a lot cheaper than Williamsburg (and why would anyone want to live there anyway?) after loking all over Brooklyn a year ago, Ditmas Park was best investment for coop on a limited budget. huge improvements in past year, and neighborhood is only getting better.

look hard before buying though, as some owners are asking more than their coops are worth while bargains can still be had.

--satisfied owner

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 4:50 PM

you may want to define what the "greater ditmas park area" is, as the area tradionally known as ditmas park has both been a great area to live (been here all my life), is a great investment on a limited budget, and i think has maintained its value. there are certainly people who do not have upwards of 900,000 to spend on a house, and want to live in the area, or have more than 600 square feet to their two bedroom apartment. i think there are areas that surround ditmas park that arent as expensive, but might be slightly riskier...
even so, if it's a great apartment that you love, it might be worth it.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 4:56 PM

You've been in the neighborhood for a while, you really like the area, many ammenities with more coming, very accessible to various forms of transportation, very affordable, beautiful surroundings. Plan on staying five years of more. Go for it. at this point you can choose from new construction or older buildings with detail.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 5:18 PM

Read the "Want a Bargain? Head to Flatbush" Link on Brownstoner's Monday Links. I think the title of the article says it all.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 5:27 PM

I bought in the area about three years ago and have never looked back. I did a lot of thinking before I bought here and what really cinched it for me was when I realized I didn't care if it changed or not. I was paying way less than I would in other neighborhoods and I liked this one, as is, enough to be happy with my purchase even if it never changed. The people are what made it for me - and the easy commute to my office downtown. I have met more people I can see being friends with for years to come here than I did in any other neighborhood I have lived in Manhattan or Brooklyn. It has only been an added bonus that the neighborhood has scored a great wine shop and some great stores and restaurants in the past couple of years. I also didn't expect so many artistic types priced out of other neighborhoods to move in. There is a flourishing group of musicians and artists that are giving the neighborhood an even better vibe. It might not be the best time to buy anything due to the general decline in the real estate market, but if you are going to buy anyway and are just deciding on neighborhood, I say go for it.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 6:01 PM

Ditmas Park is a little inconvenient, but it's rapidly gentrifying. It's a great neighborhood for people who don't like to live near black people, or think neighborhoods with a lot of black people are scary and dangerous by definition.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 8:11 PM

Please ignore the comment at 8:11. Let's not even give it any more thought. Victorian Flatbush is an extremely diverse neighborhood as you probably know already. By diverse I mean not just people of African descent but literally people from every corner of the globe. I agree with the above poster who stated that they loved the neighborhood just as it is. If good things happen here in the future, great!

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 8:31 PM

Ditmas, Windsor Terrace and Bay Ridge are longtime very white, conservative Republican neighborhoods. It's changing, but that's the history, let's face it. We liked Ditmas, but found many houses needed a ton of work because people were selling them after living in them 30 years, which made the renos unaffordable for us. Also my husband insists on living somewhere he can easily walk to a good fast subway line. Ditmas is essentially like choosing the suburbs. Which is exactly the appeal when someone is buying a big house in a good school district with a driveway for a car, but I agree with the other person here, I don't know that I see the sense for a young person to buy a coop there. If the coop is close to the Q and Cortelyou Road, go for it, if not then you should choose an area with more amenities near an express subway.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 9:31 PM

Winsor Terrace and Bay Ridge are very different from Ditmas where it has been at least 20 years or more since the neighborhood has been all white. Or don't you count people who live in apartment buildings as being part of the neighborhood? Ditmas Park has had both a Democratic (Black by the way) congressperson and council person for the last 15 years, so it is far from all white and conservative. It is like choosing the suburbs but better because it is easily accessible to transportation that will get you to the city in 45 minutes or less depending on where you are. The poster stated that they are not interested in a house so that point is moot. Many young people buy here because it is still affordable and nice. Many young people without children have even purchased houses that needed renovation because they wanted workshop/studio space - Art, music, weaving etc.. They bought while the prices were affordable. I am sure young people who bought in Williamsburgh when it was still affordable were asked why they would buy there. It was far from transportation without any ammenities but they needed studio space and made it there own.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:57 PM

Unlike Windsor Terrace and more like a rapidly changing Bay Ridge--Ditmas Park is NOT very white. That is simply falsehood. It is a decidedly mixed neighborhood and a day walking around along with a pretty cursory look at census figures will confirm that. As for Republican--you have got to be kidding me.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:59 PM

After being priced out of Park Slope, Cobble Hill, Prospect Heights and other neighborhoods, we decided to look at Ditmas. It certainly doesn't have as much of a vibrant commercial scene as other popular Brooklyn neighborhoods, but what convinced us was the price (nice 1 and 2 BR co-ops available for well under $350K) and convenience. Taking the Q to midtown Manhattan from Newkirk takes about as much time as taking the F train from 7th Avenue in Park Slope. There's a food co-op (with no membership requirement) and a weekly farmer's market that will only get bigger as time goes on.

Also lots of new places seem to be opening all the time, catering to an ever gentrifying neighborhood. I got the sense that one year from now this up and coming neighborhood will have up and come, and it will get harder to find affordable places.

The real estate market might go south, but not to the point that those $850K co-ops in Park Slope will drop to $400K and all the artists and school teachers will finally be able to move in. Even in a down market, a neighborhood like that will still be too expensive for most middle class people and the only thing that will happen is that those expensive apartments will stay on the market a week or a month longer than usual.

That's where I think neighborhoods like DP will still find willing and able buyers who will, in turn, fuel the need for the staples of gentrification (coffee shops, restaurants, etc.). Yeah, a single person in his 20s probably wouldn't want to buy a co-op there, but for couples in their 30s, the neighborhood makes sense. If you had a choice between a 45 minute commute to midtown from New Jersey (car or NJ Transit) or the same commute via a subway, which would you choose?

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:52 PM

Ditmas Park is more white than Crown Heights and Bed Stuy. It's certainly not a black neighborhood, even though it's close to Flatbush. It's totally the best neighborhood for white people who don't want to live in a neighborhood that feels to black (hence, "unsafe"), so let's not fool ourselves.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 1:19 AM

It may not be predominantly Black but it is not predominantly white. There are more people of color - Browns, Yellows and even Beige than whites. Newflash... NYC is not the place to be if you are trying to get away from people of color. According to the statistics the entire cities so called minority populations are now the majority. I could think of many great reasons to live in any of the Victorian Flatbush neighborhoods and it being "totally the best neighborhood for white people who don't want to live in a neighborhood that feels black hence unsafe" would not be one of them.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 6:29 AM

I saw some mind-bendingly beautiful prewar coops in Ditmas last fall at incredible prices and was very tempted...but in the end, I decided it was too risky (for an apartment purchase) and too far of a commute. I've lived in Park Slope for years and I've always been struck by how really quite far away it is from Midtown, and Ditmas is significantly further away. I'd really think about that--if you commute into Midtown, you're really looking at a lot of commuting time. It has many pros: beautiful buildings, very solid amenities on Courtelyou. I say if you fall in love with a place, want to think of it as more a home than an investment, it could be a great place to live.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 9:39 AM

"It's totally the best neighborhood for white people who don't want to live in a neighborhood that feels to black (hence, "unsafe"), so let's not fool ourselves."

No--it is way too close to a vast expanse of black neighborhood for that. If you don't want too many black people you would move to Windsor Terrace (maybe too $$$ at this point) Kensington, Bay Ridge or even Sunset Park if other brown people don't freak you out.

At any rate, I don't really get the point of your argument. Do white people have racial anxieties? Sure. Not exactly a news flash.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 9:48 AM

Buy it, unless you have a rent stabilized place somewhere. Rents are crazy and likely to continue to with all of the "scared" by media folks. You can still own something and pay less than renting in park slope. regardless of what the naysayers say - it is a great neighborhood, we've lived there for many years first in coops and now in a house. You save a lot of money NOT paying off soemone else's mortgage (renting) and the prewar coops are so much better in quality than anything new you could get in park slope.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 10:08 AM

I have to pipe up about the commute. The Q to midtown takes me less time than it used to take me on the 1/9 from Park Slope. My office is now downtown so Vic Flatbush was a no brainer (as the express bus flies through the tunnel and you are at work in 20-25 minutes, vs. the 35-40 to downtown it took me from Park Slope on the subway). Anyway - in the grand scheme of things and even ignoring the fact that Vic Flatbush has an express bus line as an alternative, an extra 10 minutes on the subway between the Q stop in Park Slope and the Q stop on Beverly or Courtelyou was worth it to me and many others to get a much better home for much less money.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 10:09 AM

I'm with 6:01 pm -- we have been in the neighborhood for four years and bought because of the incredible value (a whole house, plus a big garden AND a driveway -- although these things are obviously not available to the OP looking at a coop) and the friendly (and diverse!) feel of the neighborhood. We haven't missed the Slope for one second and neither have our kids. The new amenities appearing in the nabe are just icing on the cake.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 10:37 AM

Whether you work downtown or midtown, as a previous poster stated, the commute is probably about the same if not quicker from Ditmas Park. There are three different express bus lines that come down Cortelyou and one that goes down Coney Island Ave. Each of the lines have "Midtown only" and "Downtown only" routes that go onto the Prospect Expressway and breeze down the HOV through the BK Battery Tunnel. I took the bus initially as a flook. I was running toward the train station and the driver thought I was running for the bus and stopped for me. I rode in and decided to continue to take it to work. I do take the train home though. Some people do the opposite and prefer the relaxed atmosphere of the bus for their evening commute. The money that I saved on a place allows me to have such luxuries as paying for the express bus service.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 12:56 PM

i too lived in the slope for a long time and just got sick of how far it was to too many places in manhattan. moved to williamsburg and it's such a relief. can actively use the city even on the weekends and the commute is so much faster.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 1:44 PM

Totally agree on all comments on how heinous the commute is from Park Slope. The R is the slowest ride ever, and the 2/3 is a faster train but never comes, and is packed full when it does. We're on the Q too, but in PLG, and it's such a relief to be able to get to Midtown so quickly after years of enduring the subways in North Park Slope.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 2:04 PM

I've been in DP for over 25 years and there were black homeowners here even back then. It is a truely diverse neighborhood and overall politicaly liberal. That earlier post was totally false.

It is the best of Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 2:06 PM

I saw a very pregnant Park Slope double Bugaboo stroller mom on Cortelyou the other day. I remember her telling me two babies ago that that Park Slope was the greatest place on earth and how she would never leave it. I asked her why she was slumming it in Vict Flatbush? But as I stated the two rugrats in the stroller and the one in her belly answered my question. she purchased a home with five bedrooms to accomodate her growing brood. If she left Park Slope when I did, she'd have enough equity to move back into a larger place in her beloved Park Slope. You on the other hand sound like you want to be here and we would love to have you.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 10:25 PM

By the way, Cortelyou Road sidewalks are wide enough for mom's pushing strollers and people just strolling.

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 10:26 PM