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September 23, 2007
Increasing ceiling height by digging down?
We are considering a brownstone in Park Slope that has a garden level floor with ceilings that are just too low. They are about 7 1/2 feet. The real estate agent told me that people often actually dig into the ground to extend the ceiling height, and she said that she did that on her own place. She said that it would probably cost about $30k.
I have never heard of this being done. So my question is- is this commonly done with brownstones to extend the cieling height on the bottom floor? If so, is her estimate of $30k or so a reasonable one, or is it way off? (The space is 20x45 and we would actually need to do a full internal reconfiguation of the walls on that floor anyway so the impact to the rest of floor in terms of having to reconstruct it is not important to us. I'm just trying to understand whether it's reasonable to assume that it can be done, and that it would cost roughly $30k.
Thank you!
Comments
i have my basement dug down. but for much less like few k and recemented.
Posted by: guest at September 23, 2007 11:19 PM
Thank you for your reply! This is a finished basement (would be the floor with the bedrooms, for the owners unit). Does that change the price at all? (Just wondering if your lower price was b/c it was unfinished.)
Anyway, I'm reassured to hear that it can be done. Thanks!
Posted by: U510545 at September 23, 2007 11:29 PM
wasn't finished , they just dug up the cement and than recemented it.
best bet is always ask around contractors to see how much they would charge to do it.
Posted by: guest at September 24, 2007 12:07 AM
I considered doing this, also for much fewer K, but it depends how far down you dig. A few important considerations. First and foremost, don't do this on the cheap, you will most likely be digging below the foundation of the building and if not done properly you can cause serious stuctural problems not just to your building but the building next door. Get an architect involved etc. Stoner posted an article about this recently. Second, consider radiant heating, the floor is going to be icy cold in the winter, we regret not doing this. Finally, you will be in a basement - humid in the summer, cold in the winter.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at September 24, 2007 7:46 AM
One other consideration is how dry your basement is. Parts of Park Slope are notorious for having poor drainage and basement dampness. If you're one of the lucky ones whose basement stays dry even during the worst storms, I'd think twice about upsetting that particular apple cart.
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at September 24, 2007 8:15 AM
Thank you very much for your comments!
Brooklynnative - how would I go about finding this article posted by "stoner"? I am new to this website so if you could give me some guideance on how to find the article, I would appreciate it.
Zeebee - this is a unit we are considering purchasing so we have no idea about dampness. Any tips on how I could find this out?
By the way, this is considered a basement by the seller but it is partially above ground. In the back, it walks out to the garden. In the front though, it is barely above ground.
Posted by: U510545 at September 24, 2007 10:05 AM
Is there a cellar (true basement with no windows) beneath this or is this the lower-most level of the building?
Are the mechanicals on this level?
If this is the lowest level and has mechanical room then there's often a drain connecting to the city pipeline - this backs up and causes alot of flooding in many areas of brooklyn.
The other sources of water are from improperly graded surfaces outside the doors - garden and front.
One way to find out if you don't trust the seller to be honest is to ask neighbors what the experience is on that block especially in heavy rains.
If you're worried about general dampness your engineer / inspector should be able to give you an idea. Fresh paint can cover up the most obvious signs but a trained eye should be able to find mold that will occur if there is dampness.
Posted by: guest at September 24, 2007 11:31 AM
Thank you guest (11:31). I will need to collect these details on the place. There is no cellar to my knowledge, but I don't recall seeing the mechanicals on this level. However, my inspection of it was hardly comprehensive. I do know that this level is currently inhabited by 4 people (current owner is using it as a rental property and has created 4 bedrooms and a bathroom down there). So I feel like it is unlikely that it flooded since people live there, but who knows...
Posted by: U510545 at September 24, 2007 12:40 PM
sounds like an "english basement," with rear opening at grade, and front mostly under sidewalk grade.
there's no guarantee that you can dig down, as it depends on what's under the floor. if there are pipes, old oil tanks, etc, there may be a limit on how far down you can dig. they'll test this before they start digging. hopefully, you can go down a foot or two and get yourself the extra ceiling height.
i agree that this should be done by PROFESSIONALS, as there's lots that could go wrong.
good luck.
Posted by: guest at September 24, 2007 12:44 PM
Almost ALL of these buidings have foundations that do not extend down beyond the concrete floor slab in the cellar or basement. If you dig down, you may risk undermining the foundation and placing you and your neighbors (who most likely share the side foundation walls with you) in grave danger.
Do not approach this lightly. Digging down can be done, but you may have to structurally underpin the existing foundation walls, which basically means adding poured concrete underneath them. This must be performed little by little (in 4'-0" increments), and cannot be done by amateurs as it requires a specific procedure.
Get a structural engineer or architect to look at it.
Posted by: guest at September 24, 2007 1:05 PM
The article on digging was on the main page within the past couple of weeks and had a large graphic you can't miss it if you search the site.
If you have an English basement, with a a low grade opening in the front, you may not even be able to legally convert it to a sleeping space. That's what our architect told us when we considered digging down in our English basement. Apparently the city measures whether it's a habitable space by the front of the building, where the floor is considerably lower than the surface level than in the back of the building. It's crazy but that's the way it work. I'd be very, very careful in figuring all this out before you make an offer. Unfortunately, you'll need professional advice which will cost you $.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at September 24, 2007 1:13 PM
Many thanks! This is starting to sound too daunting even just reading through the posts. Maybe it's not a project for us. I did call a contractor about this and he quoted a price of $400 per linear foot for the job, including engineering drawings, going up to 2 feet in height, filing with the Department of Bureau & removal of
excavating material. That seems VERY expensive (around $88k if figuring the linear footage of the space).
Anyway, thanks for all of the info! And I'll go and look for that article now- thanks for the heads up.
Posted by: U510545 at September 24, 2007 1:42 PM
I found the article on the site about the dangers of improperly underpinning a foundation: http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/09/overlooking_und.php
Unfortunately, the ceiling height of a garden floor is what it is - I don't think I've ever been in an old brownstone or rowhouse with the garden floor height more than 7-1/2 or 8 feet, even in the grand homes that show up on the various Brooklyn house tours.
One thing I'm not clear on - is this the garden-floor unit in a co-op/condo, or will it be your owner's unit in a multi-family dwelling? The reason I ask is that, even if there are no obstacles (mechanical, structural or otherwise) to your digging out below the garden level, a co-op or condo board might well deny you permission on the grounds that it's too potentially disruptive and risky to the rest of the residents and to the integrity of the building itself.
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at September 24, 2007 1:54 PM
Thanks for finding the article Zeebee!
This is the garden/basement floor of the owners unit in a multi-family dwelling. It is 3 stories, plus the garden/basement. The owners unit is the parlor floor plus the garden/basement level. The entire property (all 3 units) are currently being rented out by the current owner, and the duplex unit actually has all of the bedrooms on the garden/basement level. There are currently 4brs and a bath down there.
Posted by: U510545 at September 24, 2007 2:06 PM
People who do this cheaply are risking their building's structural integrity, not to mention the neighbor's house. It is plain dumb to do it without an engineer and permit.
Posted by: dt at September 24, 2007 4:55 PM
My folks did this with their house but it is not a brownstone.. they had to dig down and bc the house was so old the foundation was just bricks on dirt so they ended up digging under the foundation in 3-4 foot areas and backfilling with cement in order to keep the building stable....
Needless to say it took them about a year (they did it all themselves after work etc) turned out beautifully and went from 6.5' to about 8.5'...
Next door neighbors with similar house just had it done by a contractor and had the basement renovated to add kitchen and bath and the whole project cost about 100k
Might be a little more complicated with an attached house and I would recommend an engineer... it is one thing for you to destroy your own house and another to have a connecting wall collapse btwn your house and your neighbors
Posted by: guest at September 25, 2007 12:54 AM
Thanks all! We decided this was not a project worth undertaking. Will either deal with the 7.5ft ceilings or look elsewhere.
Brooklynnative- that is very good info about the grade in the front being used to determine whether it is inhabitable as a sleeping space. We will need to talk to an architect about that for sure. Interestingly, it is currently being rented out and 4 people sleep down there! So I don't know whether the current owner is just out of compliance, or whether this is not a problem.
Posted by: U510545 at September 25, 2007 3:24 PM
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