Forum
« Barton's Hardwood Doors Hardwood Floor Installation. Cost? »
September 18, 2007
Dearth of brownstone listings
Any thoughts on the low brownstone inventory? I haven't seen many nice properties come on the market since before the summer. I'm sure the current market and mortgage crisis effects on Brooklyn nabes have to do with it, but when do you expect inventory to increase?
Comments
the inventory of brownstones never seems to be more than a handful...at any time of year.
they are beloved (as you can see from this blog) and many times when people get their hands on one, restore it and put a lot of tlc into it, they end up staying in families for many years.
Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 5:50 PM
There is not the opportunity to "flip" brownstones in more established neighborhoods now and that financial gain is diminishing even in the developing areas. Those brownstone owners I know share my experience of having bought during a definite peak in the market and now would be fortunate to break even in a sale, especially after a costly renovation. For those able and/or content to stay put and raise a family, any peak is temporary. I would imagine that the majority of brownstone owners who have bought in the past 10 years or so will hold on to their homes for some time. You may notice that many of the houses coming on the market have been in the same family for decades and need loads of work or they have a "story" involving nightmare tenants, nightmare neighbors, shoddy workmanship on failed renovations, etc. If you are adventurous, I think you can still find something worth your trouble. As for your search for "nice" listings, well, how deep are your pockets?
Posted by: bheightsejp at September 18, 2007 6:27 PM
I would also have to say that at any point in time, regardless of the market, it seems like there are only a few great brownstones on the market in the more established areas of Brooklyn. My advice to people has always been, if you find the right house and you've got the money, then buy it.
On the other hand, the more fringe neighborhoods will unfortunately see a lot of property turnover as today's foreclosure reports attest. That is very sad. You'll see many properties available in those neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 7:07 PM
I bought a couple of years ago and despite a costly and time consuming renovation I know that I would be easily able to sell my home for way, way more than I paid for the purchase and the reno. I can't imagine that I'm alone. And so I'm wondering how the poster at 6:27 says that he and his pals would have trouble cashing out? I keep hearing about high asking prices and bidding wars breaking out on most townhouses that come on the market that are nice. Is this not the case in the area you all bought in? Please tell us where this mythical place is so that we can buy cheap properties now.
Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 8:51 PM
I am afraid "guest" that you combined two differing locations into one confused rebuff to my post. My "mythical" neighborhood is Brooklyn Heights and my POINT is that owning a brownstone in perhaps the most established neighborhood in Brooklyn, meaning the area first to be gentrified, with close proximity to Manhattan and exceptional views of Manhattan is to understand that home prices have beat many records for their high prices even in comparison to similar homes in Manhattan itself. Therefore, owing to changed circumstances in the economy, it will be difficult to sell a home in BHeights that was bought at the height of the market for a considerable profit in the near future. I suggested to the original poster that buying a brownstone in a less established neighborhood in Brooklyn would yield more options in terms of volume of choices. And besides, where would you, pray tell, find "cheap" brownstones in any part of Brooklyn? Considering even reasonable home costs in BedStuy or Crown Heights, one must take into consideration reno costs, taxes, etc. Cheap was when my house sold for $55,000 in 1978 to the person I bought it from for as you can imagine, nothing like $55,000. Everyone is going to feel the effects of an altered real estate environment though barring a major catastrophe, prices will always go up.
Posted by: bheightsejp at September 18, 2007 9:05 PM
So does anyone expect more listings to pop-up since the summer is over? Or will the market deter homeowners from listing?
Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 10:12 PM
Anyone venture to guess what "nice" brownstones cost in some of the better areas in Brooklyn: Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Fort Greene, Prospect Heights?
Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 10:39 PM
The comments that it's not a good time to flip makes no sense at all -- prices on brownstones are astronomical right now!
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:32 AM
In response to 10:39: I'd have to say that Brooklyn Heights will set you back $4-5 million. And of course there are those $6 million listings in BH too. Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, $3-3.5 million (for MOVE-IN condition). Fort Greene and Prospect Heights $2-2.5 million. This is my guess given what I've seen over the last few months and also based on the open houses and appointments I've been to. There have been bidding wars on 2 properties in Fort Greene that have gone up to $3 million, but they were the exception rather than the rule since both properties were perfectly renovated and in move-in condition.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:33 AM
Well, if you have been reading brownstoner for a while you would know that 2 to 3 million is for the very nice in top neighborhoods. Extremely nice (exceptional buildings) go above 3 million to 3.5. That is about the top as far as I know.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:35 AM
To 9:33- I think you have to be careful based on listings or asked prices as they may ultimately sell lower
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:37 AM
Also remember this is for top buildings. Older ones needing renovation do come to market cheaper.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:38 AM
9:33 here: 9:37 you're absolutely right. I was referring only to the very prime listings, the top of the line "really nice" brownstones in move-in condition in top areas. And I also meant the way top of the market.
All those Brooklyn Heights listings at $4+ have been on the market for months. I don't see them moving at all. There are also some Park Slope properties asking $3+ that don't seem to be moving either. I've seen some real fixer-uppers in Park Slope that are a wreck on the inside priced at $2.3-$2.5+ and they are still on the market after months. In general everything is overpriced.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:52 AM
9:52--your estimates are high, and might be for the 4-5 story buildings with over 4500 square feet in a hot market. The shorter and smaller buildings are much cheaper, even if they're in good shape.
Posted by: Emily14 at September 19, 2007 10:08 AM
9:52--your estimates are high, and might be for the 4-5 story buildings with over 4500 square feet in a hot market. The shorter and smaller buildings are much cheaper, even if they're in good shape.
Posted by: Emily14 at September 19, 2007 10:09 AM
9:52...I'd like to see your examples...
Everything I've seen in Park Slope is GONE.
I saw a 2.7 million fixer a week after it went on the market. 2 weeks later when i returned from out of town it was sold.
This was last month.
Please do let me know where these places that have been languishing are. Would love to take a look...
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 11:23 AM
Corcoran has two listings in P.Slope:
14th Street ($3.2m) and Berkeley Place ($3.35m).
I haven't seen either, but the listings look nice.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 12:49 PM
yes, the berkeley place is new to the market as of a couple weeks ago. looks amazing.
bet they've already had a few offers from the open house on sunday.
3.2 million seems high for 14th street to me.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 1:07 PM
I keep hearing contradictory things... some say it's a soft market and others suggest that a place gets several offers after being on the market for only a few days.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 1:16 PM
I was only trying to explain that it is not worth "flipping" if you already bought at the top of the market. I am glad my critics are so concerned. If you are looking for something to lose sleep over, why don't you read the news.
Posted by: bheightsejp at September 19, 2007 1:29 PM
To 11:23: there are various properties in Park Slope, two of them in...wait for it...321 district, that have been on the market for a while and need lots of work (86 Garfield listed for $2.3 by Aguayo, and 423 1st Street listed for $2.25 by Rita Knox). Then there are the other Park Slope listings that are not in 321 that aren't faring much better: Corcoran's 165 6th Avenue, reduced to $2.49, and they've been having open houses every Sunday for what seems forever (another one coming up this weekend); 52 Berkeley listed by BP also reduced, now at $2.6, has been on the market for a long time; then another Rita Knox listing on Sterling Place reduced to $2.65 (see http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/952-17)
Also see 746A Union listed by Aguayo for $2.25. This poor house is pretty ugly on the inside. Then there's the 8th Ave. townhouse listed for $2.9 with A.D. Shaye that has also been on the market for a long time.
Look up the ones I did not link to directly, or find them all on NY TIMES--just search for Park Slope townhouses/houses. I've seen all these properties (I have them memorized) and have been following them for a while. They all need a fair amount of work, some more than others. The prices have come down and they're ALL Park Slope (gasp)! As far as I know, they're still NOT SOLD.
PS: I tried posting direct links to all these properties in a previous post, but I think it was blocked because there were too many links.
There you go 11:23! Do your due diligence before saying everything in Park Slope is gone. Good luck--hope one of them works out for you.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 2:52 PM
Which are the nicest houses available in Park Slope?
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 3:07 PM
i believe the 3.4 million brownstone on berkeley place (corcoran site) is the nicest looking around.
and most expensive.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 3:22 PM
I agree, although that seems like a lot of dough in a "soft" market.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 3:57 PM
Regarding the Corcoran $3.35 listing at Berkeley Place: not digging the recessed lighting on parlor level. Also, while it looks like it's had a new renovation, also can't see much original detail from the pictures. But that's not that important to all buyers. Still too much. If I had the dough I'd rather spend $3.6 for this Montgomery Place manse listed by Elliman,
and be on a better block, in a larger house with more original detail, and closer to the real entrance to the park.
Posted by: Emily14 at September 19, 2007 4:22 PM
i'd argue that i'd prefer NOT to be so close to the entrance to the park and berkeley place is quite a few blocks closer to transportation....2/3 at Grand Army and Q at 7th Ave.
having said that, of course montgomery is an amazingly beautiful block, but i'd personally prefer berkeley.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 4:39 PM
There are never enough quality listings. It sounds obvious but it really is worth repeating often that the nice, well priced listings in every category have consistently sold within a week's time. This is as true today as it has been over the summer and last spring. Houses that are overpriced languish on the market. Some brokers take overpriced listings and others just don't.
Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 8:44 PM
I take exception to bheightseip's statement that "Brooklyn Heights is the most established neighborhood in Brooklyn, meaning the area first to be gentrified." You must be originally from Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 10:25 AM
How do you know? It's still listed on Corcoran's site?
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:11 PM
Call them and ask.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:33 PM
It's not only the economy. There are other factors. Don't forget there are waves of sales as generations retire or pass away. We might be passing out of one of those waves now. People live a long long time in brownstones. Not only in the best neighborhoods either, in the "fringe" ones too, as there are certain better blocks everywhere that have stable middle class and professional homeowners. Park Slope saw this turnover already. Most the houses in PS have new young homeowners now, not the old generation. The old generation cashed out. So it may be a long time before you see droves of brownstones on the market again. Of course there will be an occasional person relocating out of the city, or a divorce.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 1:52 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.