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June 30, 2007
horrible closing experience, unethical attorney?
yesterday i closed, finally and 24 hours later i have nothing but absolute bitterness about how it went down. long story short....the coop attorney, (the attoney representing the coop i was buying into) pretty much extorted an extra 250.00 out of me, threatening me that unless i paid the money (because the closing went on too long, it took 3 hours) they would not finalize the sale. this is after , AFTER i paid their fee.
my attorney was incredulous and the bank attorney looked at them like they were crazy.
in the end i wrote the check because wtf was i to do? i already paid so many fees and application fees to get to this point and in the last minute all of sudden their is an extra 250.00, it really is not about the money, but the principle.
i cannot believe this, i totally understand that in closing there will be so many charges and fees, but this was blatant extortion. if they told me going in that there was a time limit thats one thing, but this really made me upset and even though i have possesion, i'm still pretty heated about this.
just wanted to get some ideas what to do, i'm going to contact the NY Bar and will stop the check (hopefully) in any case. I will definitely share the name of this law practice soon.
Comments
Wow! The nerve! I would think a 3 hour closing would be in the normal range.
Posted by: Anon at June 30, 2007 7:09 AM
Don't see what you are complaining about. In your business, if you provide more products or services than promised, don't you expect to be compensated? Do you think the attorney is working on your case on a probono account? The amount is so small in any case. Wait until you start hiring plumbers for more than that an hour. Your troubles are just beginning.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 7:14 AM
jeesus, you didn't comprehend what i wrote.
when you hire a plumber its understood and agreed upon the terms and hourly whatever, this was AFTER THE FACT
if they were on the UP AND UP they would have stated how the fees regarding closing are
and i did write that the amount was small, its the f-ing principle of being mugged by people in suits in an office!
Posted by: op at June 30, 2007 7:22 AM
Sounds pretty normal to me. Wasn't your lawyer there to help you navigate through all the paperwork and fees? Seems they should have explained that these kinds of things happen. Some closings charge extra for going late to compensate the attorneys, some do it to make sure that the other attorneys and the bank have their act together and show up on time, and other places pass on a charge that comes from the location not the people involved. $250 isn't worth freaking out about. You should be unpacking or painting or something.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 7:54 AM
Sorry, a 3-hour closing is WELL within normal limits and it sounds like a rather tacky way of doing business. If the closing drags on all day that's an entirely different matter.
A crappy way to start your home-owner experience but this too shall pass. It's only $250 but, you're right, That aint the point. When you get settled and are in good standing in the co-op, raise it at a board meeting and suggest getting a better attorney for the building. And congrats on your new digs!
Posted by: John at June 30, 2007 8:10 AM
thanks John, thats exactly what both the bank and my attorney said to me. appreciate your level headed advice, to anon, yeah you are right i do need to paint and stuff, but i hate feeling like a mark with a target painted on their back.
the law firm was Sullivan and Bernstein at 351 Broadway.
too bad it is so easy to find reviews on restaurants and movies, but for attorneys its up in the air, so just to let people know
Posted by: op at June 30, 2007 8:18 AM
I like John's advice. Boy, you meet some interesting types buying real estate don't you? (on this board too....). Good luck with your new coop.
Posted by: anon at June 30, 2007 8:43 AM
I have always thought there was an inherent conflict in the buyer being asked to pay for the co-op's attorney. Seems to me this should be paid for by the co-op. As it is, the buyer and the attorney here have a potentially adversarially relationship (as illustrated here). And was it really in the co-op's interest to have the sale not go through if the fee wasn't paid? Unfortunately for many of these firms the focus is on volume rather than quiality and customer service. Penalties for long closings should be disclosed up front or the fee should be set to anticipate that. That said you will find contractors who change their prices midjob, either honestly or in bait and switch. It does want to make your head explode. Deep breathing helps!
Posted by: putnam-denizen at June 30, 2007 9:21 AM
Welcome to co-op living! That's why I sold mine and moved out to the boonies of Brooklyn and got a house. Oh, if I could tell you all the evil ways my co-op extorted money from me over the years...
But what kind of absurdity is that about having the co-op pay their attorney for the closing? Why should they dish out the $ every time one of the shareholders wants to sell their shares? Maintenance costs would go through the roof, particularly if it's a building with high turnover.
John is right, bring it up with the board and try to change things from within. Hopefully it's not a giant building and you'll be able to have some sway.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 9:42 AM
op you are a rude and easily excited person as evidenced by your posts. I think there is another side to this story.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 10:01 AM
Absurd to pay for your own lawyer (if you are the Cooperative Corporation)? To make sure the lawyer represents your interests. To avoid conflicts of interest. Much as paying the gas bill or the real estate taxes are co-op business, so too is the safeguarding of co-op interests at sales. Charge a flip tax, or raise maintenance. But to have the counsel to one party turn to another represented party during a transaction and say "pay me" or I walk is unseemly. The fact that it is custom around here doesn't make it any less weird.
PS how is OP rude? Esasily exciteable, perhaps...
Posted by: putnam-denizen at June 30, 2007 10:22 AM
There seems to be a missing element to this story OP.... were you late for the closing... so many times folks don't realize it's important to show up with all your required documents and ID and in a timely manner.
Posted by: bren at June 30, 2007 11:45 AM
"There seems to be a missing element to this story OP.... were you late for the closing."
How the fuck do you know if there is a "missing element" to the story? And even *if* there is an extra fee for a longer process that should have been made clear right at the start, along with any other fees contingent on certain events.
Basically the attorney concerned was involved in nothing short of a heist: gimme more money or you lose the co-op.
I'm not the OP, but if the OP described the story correctly then his conclusion, that he should stop the check and lodge a complaint, is quite valid.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 11:54 AM
People are so rude on this board today (from both ends). It's a nice day out. Go take a walk. All of you.
Posted by: 3am eternal at June 30, 2007 12:57 PM
Calmer heads should prevail... I still think there's a missing element to the story... so all the "how the fucks..." etc. just don't cut it.
Sometimes, even though folks are given a set time for closing, a written list of documents/checks that they need to bring to closing etc., they show up late, no documentation, no I.D. and act suprised when the principals involved are completely aggravated and want to be compensated for the extra time involved due to the purchaser coming totally unprepared for closing and late to boot.
In any event, good luck to the OP in his/her new home.
Posted by: bren at June 30, 2007 1:00 PM
OP is rude using expressions as "wtf" "f-ing" "extortion" "mugged by people in suits" etc
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 1:37 PM
to anon above, and others, everyone was on time btw
and maybe the expression wtf is harsh but its exactly how i felt
and "mugged by people in suits" is exactly how it went down.
everything about the closing went pretty smooth, they just came in after everything was signed and said this closing took too long and we need 250.00 or else
Posted by: op at June 30, 2007 4:56 PM
No I don't think op was rude, or wrong to feel taken advantage of. This is something that should have been negotiated up front a) that there might be a time limit, and b) who pays. Imho, the seller should pay the coop's attorney, but nobody asked me. This is just one reason why I would never, ever, well hardly ever, own a coop, but nobody asked me that either. As for 3 hours being long, not.
John definitely has the right idea: aside from pursuing it with the nys bar, go to a board meeting and bring it up. Maybe you're not the first coop member to experience this. Get on the board. Make a motion to replace the firm.
Posted by: anon at June 30, 2007 6:37 PM
I cannot see how the OP was rude. (S)he is entitled to an opinion about how things went down, and based on the story, WTF and calling it a mugging is reasonable.
Real estate in this city never ceases to amaze me. I know the buyer is spending a lot of money, but does that have to enable all these parasitic little Brooklyn real estate traditions--from tipping the title guy to getting the buyer to pay the Co-op's lawyer to then getting suckered into extra fees for that lawyer doing their job?
In other cities, this kind of stuff is labelled "extortive", and anyone telling a story about it certainly wouldn't be called "rude" or "excitable."
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 7:51 PM
You're wrong, tipping the closer is not exclusive to brooklyn at all, it is customary in many locations.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 8:52 PM
Like where? Can you be more specifc?
I have purchased property in places where it is not expected--Los Angeles, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver and Boston. The only time I have ever been expected to tip the title person is here.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 30, 2007 9:21 PM
Tipping the title person???? You're kidding. I didn't do this at my coop closing eight years ago. Is this a new trend?
Posted by: zeebee at June 30, 2007 10:12 PM
OP--had the SAME experience but it cost me $750. I did the same thing...just paid it and was resentful as hell. BUT...just wait--and get on the board. And when you do--kick his/her fucking ass around. Run him/her ragged. Call his/her ass ALL THE TIME. Then threaten to fire him/her. I did it. Some say revenge is hollow. Not for me in this case.
In the end---he asked what my problem was. I told him. He gave me my money back. Found out he pulled the same shit with another buyer. Got the board to fire him.
And 3 am Eternal--what's up with you being all Zen and reasonable? No post about architects getting screwed you can whine on about? Surely you have some asshole "you get what you pay for" comment to post SOMEWHERE?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 1, 2007 1:31 AM
Can people please post without using profane language? What has happened to civil discourse? Are we mature adults or gutter-mouth kids?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 1, 2007 8:31 AM
Anonymous 1:31AM, you have issues that go deeper than having a problem with having paid fees that you weren't expecting to pay at closing...
If you are to be believed, your way of dealing with perceived problems is very troublesome...
glad that you don't live in my co-op... what a neighbor you must be, especially if things don't go just your way.
But again, your posting sounds like the stuff of fantasy.
Posted by: bren at July 1, 2007 11:58 AM
gutter mouth adults
Posted by: anon at July 1, 2007 4:07 PM
anon 1:31 are you drunk or do you always lace every statement with meaningless expletives?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 1, 2007 4:28 PM
Not drunk at all 4:28...just an issue I feel strongly about. Bren--are you a therapist? What up with the issues comment? This is a blog, not a dinner party or PTA meeting. And trust me, we're not neighbors. If you have a few good years maybe one day we'll be "neighbors"...till then, you can enjoy your peaceful coop and be glad you don't have neighbors like me. Though, I suspect, it is people like me who drive your property values up and allow you to trade up in life.
Shaking down someone at a closing is total
nonsense and not to be accepted. I feel if we, as buyers, accept this it will continue. If we push back, it will stop. If lawyers want to shake you down because they have you over the emotional barrel--just say so. Don't package it as some nonsense or pretend it is legit. Last year, my fund made several millions for our clients. If we had tried to bleed a DIME from them at the eleventh hour they would have probably had us killed. "Tipping the closer"....are you kidding me?? How about doing your job and the coop who employs you pays you...not some buyer getting smacked at the closing.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 1, 2007 11:47 PM
I have to agree with the Gutter Mouthed Poster. This is good reason for profanity, it's a profane situation.
I disagree that there is so very much to do about it. There is a shortage of housing in NYC, and this creates intense value.
In order to change these parasitic practices (I would argue starting with the total, outrageous corruptitude of realtors in Brooklyn), buyers would need to do two things:
1. Educate the crap out of themselves
2. And be able to walk away
Forums like this help. I wish that I was not so freaking naive when I bought my house because we got *so* scammed on some levels, and so I share my story whenever I can with folks who are at least smart enough to ask questions on an anonymous forum. I wasn't smart enough to do that.
But buyers often are over a barrel. There's a housing shortage in NYC--it's why we all want to buy something. And once you as a buyer have invested a significant amount of time and money, and once you've seen how hard it is to find something else, it can be really difficult not to just pay the stupid parasitic fees and shut up.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 2, 2007 7:20 AM
Check archives at this sire from January 2007:
You always tip the the title company representative. Depending on what additional services they are providing (Arranging title to an LLC, Second Mortgage Recordings, Closing out a mortgage, Deed Transfers, etc.) the typical gratuity is anything from $100-$300.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 24, 2007 8:13 AM
"Very standard. Grow up."
OP, you really do need to chill... life's way too short... wishing you the best in your newly acquired co-op.
Posted by: bren at July 2, 2007 9:29 AM
Having to knuckle under and pay unreasonable fees may be what you have to do, but it's stupid to say you should feel ok (or that's it's childish to complain.) The reason all this happens here is that people put up with it because there's no easy way to fight back. Good for 1:31 who did!
It clearly does not have to be this way. In all the Western states, there's not even a closing (or, typically, an attorney). All happens through an escrow person (who does not ask for a tip.) Maybe if enough people did complain, changes could be made.
Posted by: cmu at July 2, 2007 9:55 AM
tipping the title guy is absolute and utter horsecrap.
i'm not saying it's not "the way things are done", but what a load of sh*t.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 2, 2007 12:39 PM
I agree this is an issue to get angry and profane about. My blood boiled when the mortgage broker told us after close of business the day before closing that we would have to pay $3000 more because of some bullshit that THEY had overlooked. And the same hostage holding situation, pay it or we don't close. I stewed over it for six months and then reported their ass to the Dept. of Banking. Nothing came of it, but they had to hire an attorney and prepare a detailed response to my complaint before it was closed. Miserable motherfuckers!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 2, 2007 5:26 PM
Aside from all the negative issues...
The buyer ALWAYS tips the closer.. it's referred to as the "pick-up" fee. It usually ranges from $75-150.
I'm a broker for 21 years, and I have seen that "tip" paid at every closing.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Also, stop fighting... just discuss!
HW
Posted by: howard at July 10, 2007 6:08 PM
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