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February 27, 2007
New mechanicals means tearing down the walls?
I have spoken to two contractors about working on my new home, a 120 year old row house. Both contractors have said that they would tear down all the plaster walls and ceilings in order to replace the plumbing and electric. The walls are in near perfect shape. Is this true??
I am in the process of finding a contractor to work on my new home. It is a 120 year old row house in unbelievable condition. Same family lived in it for 60 years and maintained it beautifully. There is some peeling paint and a few hairline cracks but absolutely no holes or water damage or rot (that we or our architect has found). Both contactors said they would rip down the walls to replace the mechanicals and then drywall. They said, "Its fast and cheaper to do that." and "You aren't going to find a GC to poke around to save the old plaster walls." Then they quoted 2.2 million dollars for the work on a near perfect (but old) 3500 sq.ft. rowhouse. We are not looking for perfection. I like the old hand plastered walls. The occasional bump has a thousand times the character as new dry wall. Does anyone have a contractor who can replace mechanicals in an old house without gutting it?
Comments
$2.2 MILLION? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you :-) If the house is in such good condition,do you REALLY need a general contractor? Why not a plumber and an electrician? I always avoided contractors because I couldn't stand that "it's old--it has to go" BS.
Can't your architect give you any useful guidance on this? If not, I suspect that you either need a DIFFERENT architect or don't actually need one at all.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 27, 2007 3:38 PM
We need an architect for a number of reasons: we are adding two bathrooms, moving the kitchen and we want to be in there in under a year so we want someone on site who is responsible for all that. It is a landmarked house so we need someone who can deal with that business.
The architect is suggesting good guys (rated very high in the Franklin Report Book) but they are just over our budget and do not have the vision to work within the confines of an old house.
Posted by: HH at February 27, 2007 3:51 PM
No, no, no!! Don't let them do it! Bob is absolutely correct. Why would you tear down perfectly good walls and ceilings, just because it's easier for the contractor? It is possible to find electicians and plumbers who respect the craftsmanship and beauty of an old house. See Brownstoner's reno blog. He was able have the house rewired and upgraded without sacrificing the plaster. It takes longer, and involves sometimes cutting tracks in the plaster to run wire, fix pipes, etc, but those are easily repaired by a good plasterer, who could also put a new skim coat on all of your old plaster, if necessary.
Bob said it - you may need a different architect, one that is more in tune with restoration and preservation. You definitely need different GC's. Your money would be better spent on other things than "fixing" what isn't broken. If the ceilings and walls are a wreck, that's one thing. This is a whole different animal.
A friend just had major electrical done, and they didn't tear up her walls, I'll see if I can get a recommendation. Hopefully someone else here can also recommend the right people, as well.
Posted by: Crown Heights Proud at February 27, 2007 3:58 PM
OK, just read your second post, and I see where you need the architect, and I can see where maybe a couple of walls would need to be replaced. But there is still no reason why all walls and ceilings should be replaced with sheetrock.
When I see Franklin Report, I automatically picture some kind of Sutton Place home. They have good people, but at what cost! I'm sure someone here will suggest the right person. I don't know where you are, but you might want to get in touch with a block association or community group, like the people who run house tours in various areas. T'm thinking of a house like one in Fort Greene that had a beautiful period restoration, and was for sale a while back. Perhaps the FG group could put you in contact with them, and they could recommend their contacts, or some combination thereof. There are so many people around who have done what you want to do, and used local or unknown people who are as good as those firms listed in the Franklin Report.
Posted by: Crown Heights Proud at February 27, 2007 4:11 PM
They want to tear down your walls so they can rebuild them.
Just make sure whoever does do the installation does it correctly.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 4:13 PM
If the architect had the GC bid it like this, and ran it by you, then it's not their fault. You just need them to rebid it or find a new GC. Projects come in over budget and have to be value engineered all the time.
Your architect should be able to find you another GC who is less expensive, too. Just remember that you get what you pay for. $640 per sq. ft. is not unheard of for a gut renovation. Sometimes clients eyes get really big when the architect starts showing really fancy expensive finishes and fixtures to them...and before they know it the budget is blown.
Like the poster above said, though. Save your money for where it counts to you. Don't put it where the GC wants you to put it.
And yes, you can find a GC who will poke around your plaster walls. They do it all the time.
Posted by: sf at February 27, 2007 4:15 PM
JUST SAY NO TO SHEETROCK!!! If we managed to save our plaster on our miniscule budget, anyone can. It's time to interview more contractors. And don't you dare use those guys even if they come back and say they can do it. They sound like hacks, I don't care how high their rating is!
Posted by: Yente at February 27, 2007 4:18 PM
No to tearing down all the walls, no to sheetrock, none of it. I replaced all the electric and all the plumbing years ago in a house and they tore only small holes scattered throughout, in the walls. And I managed to live there at the time, no problem. However now in post-bubble Brooklyn you find contractors telling newbie homeowners they need to rebuild the entire house. It's BS. A negative side effect of the huge interest in buying and restoring Brooklyn brownstones are these contractors who will do too much that's unnecessary, and charge far too much for it. $2.2 million is criminal, it's so unrealistically high. No matter how many rooms you move or how high-end the reno is, nothing should cost that. Plus don't spend too much more than the house will be worth, two years from now when everything is done. What if you suddenly had to sell? Sometimes life throws you surprises. A big mistake of new homeowners is believing everything has to be done perfectly, and done right away. Spread it out.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 4:29 PM
We just had to have plaster removed because of the circumstances of the renovation, and I felt really bad to see the mouldings go. It was sad. Fight to save your plaster
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 5:02 PM
We just had to have plaster removed because of the circumstances of the renovation, and I felt really bad to see the mouldings go. It was sad. Fight to save your plaster
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 5:03 PM
When we renovated our house and our parlor ceiling developed a crack, our GC told me that there was no way to save our 130 year old ceiling with original plaster moldings. He told me he would have to tear down the plaster and then sheetrock it over. He told me that the ceiling would collapse on our heads one day. When I called a plasterer, he told me it would be no problem to save the ceiling. We chose to go with the plasterer and our ceiling looks great. There are no new cracks and it hasn't collapsed on our heads. A lot of GC's don't know how to work with plaster or old houses. When we re-wired our house, no new sheetrock was used. We saved our plaster walls -- it's completely doable. Don't tear down perfectly good plaster walls!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 5:12 PM
I'm with 4:29 and the rest. Do everthing you can to save your walls. I'm thinking, if your architect doest get it, get a new architect. Unless you are talking to David Adjaye I cant think of a single reason to redo a rowhouse in drywall.
Posted by: chopper at February 27, 2007 5:25 PM
that's the way some GC's want to approach everything. gut the room and go from there. it takes much less skilled labor to tear down walls, haul out debris, and slap up sheetrock, which i assume means they can use the guys they pay less more of the time.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 6:07 PM
It's crazy to tear down good plaster walls. Your GC is being real lazy. He's in a rush and is thinking only of himself and the work at hand. And 2 MIL! Thats nut! He doesn't want to bother with the plaster work. Most these guys see no difference from sheetrock & paster. I see the difference and would say to only use sheetrock when you have to. Often I meet these guys and ask them if they ever used a plaster washer to hold old plaster to lath. They look at me like I'm from Mars. Most of my work as a contractor is fixing old plaster. Sure it takes a little more skill & time but you will save your plaster moldings too. The repro stuff just doesn't look the same. GET A NEW GC!
Posted by: Rick at February 27, 2007 6:33 PM
Just want to add my USD 0.02, save the plaster. The echo/sound transmission in sheetrock isn't easy to live with. Plaster is great at killing noise.
Posted by: victor at February 27, 2007 6:34 PM
That's just silly, all around. We 'save' plaster walls and ceilings when updating mechanicals all the time. Truth is, it's more work to remove the plaster and install sheetrock, but so few know how to work and repair plaster, GC's go with 'what they know' how to do.
Estimates of that magnitude should certainly include money to hire electricians and plumbers that won't destroy the essential fabric of your home.
If you like, give me a call @ 718-501-5962 and we can get together and review the project. I'm a licensed/insured GC.
Toby Sheppard Bloch
Betterbuilt, LLC
Posted by: Toby Sheppard Bloch at February 27, 2007 6:52 PM
We have done it both ways. Most recently we got rid of the plaster because we put in a ton of new wiring everywhere (stereo wiring, cable, outlets everywhere, recessed lights, the works.) We don't really care either way. And we used to care a lot. But now, hmmm, not an issue for us.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 8:25 PM
Hey Anon 825. Did you put the wirring yourself? or did you use, and can you recommend a wirring specialist?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 27, 2007 9:28 PM
wirring? And you were able to buy a house all by yourself?
Posted by: anon at February 28, 2007 7:45 AM
We had a beautiful plaster ceiling repaired by a handyman. He put some sort of screws with big washers every few inches to reattach blown plaster to the studs, then a pink glue compound, then a cloth-like screen, and finally did a skim coat. We retained 100% of the detail, he did the work in a day, and it is beautiful. Sorry I don't know how to reach him any longer, or the names of the exact materials, but he bought them all at Home Depot I think. I'd keep looking for people to do this for you. Old plaster is so tactile and wonderful.
Posted by: AW at February 28, 2007 9:06 AM
Google plaster washers. They are the metal disc like washers with holes in them that you can attach with a drywall screw to the lathe or the studs (if you are over a stud) and restore sagging plaster. The instructions come with them. It's a very easy DIY job, and the plaster that is sagging and sounds hollow gets pulled up against the wall. You can use the pink bonding compound and then selfadhesive sheetrock tape over the washer. Joint compound or plaster of paris over that. All available at HD/ Lowes. I have done it in our house in numerous spots and it looks great.
For the OP, if they drywall, your old moldings and baseboard will also not fit accurately, and those will have to go as well. Don't hire the GCs who tell you to demo old plaster walls.
Posted by: Yeshwant at February 28, 2007 11:09 AM
(author) I am thankful for all of the comments. I will look up 6:52. I am assured now that I do not have to gut the walls to replace the mechanicals. Sounds like we need to keep digging to find the right contractor. The row house is on the UWS by the way. Any other recommendations with names would be great. Thanks
Posted by: HH at February 28, 2007 11:10 AM
A good plaster guy, should you need it (to restore original moldings, etc).
Guy Corriero
(917) 642-8887
Posted by: sf at February 28, 2007 12:43 PM
You'll have a hard time finding an architect (unless it's design/build) who will readily recommend a contractor - too much liability if something goes wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 28, 2007 3:01 PM
Agree with all the posts above that plaster walls and ceilings can be saved (almost always -- there are exceptions, of course). In my experience both plumbers and electricians can be real "butchers" when they cut holes in the walls for pipes and cables. Make sure that whoever you eventually hire as a GC understands that preservation of your plaster surfaces is a priority and that you will not accept unnecessary, careless damage. Sometimes it's just a question of making that clear from the start so that your GC can't say to you after the fact, "oh, these sloppy subs, they just hack away as they please..."
Posted by: NeoGrec at February 28, 2007 7:23 PM
Anything is possible....for a price.
The problem you are facing is quite common. You are asking a GC to sign a contract stipulating a guaranteed price for work that is nearly impossible to predict or guarantee. Yes. Plaster can be saved. And yes, in most cases, it should be. However, the walls will be destroyed by mechanical subcontractors who are not responsible for the plaster repairs. And once plaster begins to crumble and crack, the ripple wave of that can get out of hand very quickly. The condition of all of the substrate is difficut to determine. Often times the wood lathe beneath the plaster has completely deteriorated over time. A simple patch job can turn into replacing an entire ornate ceiling pretty quickly. Plus, most contractors are afraid to commit to "character". They fear the client will not be satisfied until the old plaster walls look brand new.
Perhaps the solution here is to separate the plaster repair from the total contract. You could set up a seperate agreement based on "time and material" for the plaster repair and evaluate the work as it progresses. That way, you can make specific decisions for specific areas depending on the actual conditions (once the mechanical work is done). Perhaps there are areas where gyp board makes sense and you save that money. Perhaps there are areas where you are willing to pay to save your plaster details. Plus, you can keep track of the exact amount of work you are paying for (the contractor gives you an estimate per "task" and then submits weekly invoices). I doubt it will add up to anything close to $2.2 M.
Oh yeah....the mechanical work should not require demolition of entire walls. Most of the work can be done by making smallish holes. We just completely re-wired an entire 4-story brownstone (plus patched the plaster and painted) for about $40K.
Posted by: Beardslee Waites Architects at March 2, 2007 12:05 AM
12:05, who did your work?
Posted by: hh at March 2, 2007 10:16 AM
I'm an architect, not really a brownstone specialist, but I know enough to know that It sounds like you have:
A) Hired an architect that has no idea what he is doing in this type of project. And . .
B) Hired a contractor that is taking you for a ride. You did get multiple bids on the construction work right? If all the bids came in that high then read point 'A' again and interview two new architects. Or give up the gold faucets you just had to have.
For you and those just starting, be careful on this blog, both contractors and architect obviously look for work here. Always interview more than one and bid the construction work out to at least three GCs. Whoever you hire, be sure to check references, and if possible visit their past projects.
Posted by: Mr Smith at March 4, 2007 10:45 PM
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