Ethics, Neighborliness, Property Values and Safety Concerns.

OP here. Also, the developer who sold it to the previous owner (the seller in this transaction) has a bad history in the court records... the term "deceptive practices" pops out from the ruling... the seller claims she was not aware of the structural problem before our inspection.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 7:12 PM

wrong, it's none of your business, keep it to yourself, don't be a busy body

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 7:59 PM

*Jesus*, people, he said the building is in danger of collapse. I.e. the residents could be injured or killed.

This is not a dilemma in any way, shape or form: YOU HAVE AN ETHICAL AND MORAL DUTY TO INFORM. Period.

You can do so gently, you can do so with whatever caveats you care to offer, but if people are in danger and what you know could protect them, then there is no grey area here.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 8:13 PM

Hi. OP here.

The main beam of the house (wood) was separated from the foundation walls at both the front and back of the house.

To clarify - I'm not sure that collapse is imminent, however the inspector's words to the seller were "you're lucky your house didn't collapse".

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 8:23 PM

8:13 again here...

It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. You have compelling reason to believe they are in danger, therefore you need to tell them what you know.

God forbid something tragic should happen while you wring your hands over your "ethical issue." To call something like that manslaughter would not be inaccurate.

Incidentally, your comment about property values is...unbecoming.

If you're worked up about your confidentiality, call 311.

But do something. Now.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 8:38 PM

Have to agree with anon 8:38. On all counts. The most important issue is that no one gets hurt or injured. The most unethical thing you can do is stand by and not say a word.

And I don't see why all the housing values come down if that house just happens to collapse- not from termites anyway. But you need to get your priorities straight anyway.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 8:46 PM

... am I missing something here .... wouldn't the buyer have had an inspection done? If the issues were so serious any inspector would have seen it. MYOB. If they were stupid enough to buy a house without an inspection ... just myob.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 9:18 PM

i don't get it, what's the ethical dilemma?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 16, 2007 10:24 PM

Inform the new owners and inform the city and the Dept of Buildings. An inspector found the damage, informed the seller, therefore the seller IS REQUIRED BY LAW to inform all future buyers about the damage. If they didn't inform them, it's illegal, not just unethical. If we all just let developers and sellers get away with this stuff, on the few laws that are formed to help us, WHO PROTECTS US? Come on people. This is how and why our American society is going down the tubes. We need to participate more actively in our communities, as members of commmunities, not islands. Not as selfish, self-serving narcissists. Good for you, OP for having the correct impulse. Your neighborhood is lucky to have you.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 1:14 PM

Good for him? The nabe is lucky to have a guy who (wrongly or rightly) believes his neighbor is in danger and instead of warning them...worries about PROPERTY VALUES?!?

Good Lord...with friends like that, who needs selfish, self-serving narcissists?

Mr. Brownstoner should hunt down his ISP and out the rat. Then we can post signs on his block warning his neighbors ourselves.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 1:32 PM

I was talking about the OP's first impulse to get involved and inform the new homeowners, 1:32pm when I said he had the right impulse. I would agree the fact that he didn't do that, and instead first debated the effect on property values, was not such a great thing. BUT, I really believe the whole obsession over property values is common for all of us in Brownstone Brooklyn and who blames people for that. These houses are a huge investment of money and often the houses are in areas that are still turning around. It's nervewracking. The thing is, in the long run forming communities of neighbors who look out after each other will help improve everything. The property values, quality of life, all of it.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 1:54 PM

1:32 again:

I hear you. And, while I can sympathize with the fear, I can not with the inaction. Frankly, I'm kind of shocked anyone would even admit being so straighforwardly (and shamefully) cut throat to themselves, never mind to a board full of strangers/peers.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 2:19 PM

1:54 again:

Agreed, I can't sympathize with that kind of inaction or cut throat behavior either. Plus if we're cut unethical and selfish ourselves, then we've given up the right to take issue with developers and sellers being unethical and selfish. Why on earth would we do that? A completely "wild west" scenario with no laws or rules in Brooklyn real estate is utterly frightening.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 2:35 PM

Did I miss something? Where does it indicate that the OP is male? Don't women buy homes too and why assume that the writer must be male?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 3:15 PM

Who cares?

But here's a thought, OP:

You want something that will really chill buyer enthusiasm for your brownstone? Try a house three doors down that has collapsed unexpectedly into a pile of rubble, killing all the occupants.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 3:30 PM

Don't women buy homes too and why assume that the writer must be male?

maybe b/c the OP came off like a jerk?

relax a little. seriously.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 17, 2007 10:08 PM

im sure the current owners did a home inspection before they bought the property. doubt the house will just collapse without any warnings. However, no harm in sending an anon letter to warn buyers, if their safety is of concern.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 18, 2007 8:19 AM

Hi. OP here again.

Seems I should clarify things, and also defend myself a bit in the process, so I'm going to leave a bit of a rant here.

If I really were the monster all these outraged posters think I am, I wouldn't be posting this here now, would I? I would be laughing at the misfortune of the new owner of "the termite house" as I sit in my new, termite-free house sipping a martini and stomping as heavily as I can on my strong, well-supported main girder.

But I'm not. I'm posting this for ideas how I might ethically, intelligently and legally deal with the weight of my conscience.

The big hotbutton issue seems to be my reference to property values. There was a previous poster who pointed out that houses generally don't just fall down. They sag and then they sag and then they crack a bit and then they fall down. It takes a long time. The property values in any area will drop if the "comps" in the area are low (the quotes are to emphasize that comps generally only take into account things like square footage and number of bathrooms and so on and NOT things like structural damage or the shiny new bathrooms you install).

The issue of human life is a given. The secondary issue of what goes on in my community and how it affects my own home, finances, family and general well being is important to me.

Inspections don't always catch everything. I was very, very lucky to have a great inspector who knows what a mud tunnel looks like. There were many other people at the open house and they didn't know what they were looking at (neither did I until the inspection). People can cover water damage with fresh paint and they can cover termite damage up with drywall. The house can look amazing on the surface and be rotting inside. The house in question could have even been a HOTD on this very site.

It happens all the time. The house I did buy has some plumbing "issues" which weren't apparent at the inspection, but I don't think it's my inspector's fault. He didn't exactly take a 20 minute shower, so how could he have caught the problem? Am I pissed that the seller didn't make some of the issues known? Yes. I am, but I guess I can't prove anything was pre-existing since it wasn't caught at the inspection and I gave the OK at final walk through, so I just have to deal. That's what sucks about real estate in NY state.

1:32 - "Inaction" would be not giving a shit about the person who ended up buying the property. That's the whole point of my post. And I can't believe you're suggesting Mr. Brownstoner "rat out" anyone whose opinion you don't like. Might I point out that you posted anonymously as well? That's what makes this forum work. You can be anonymous. With friends like you, who need righteous assholes?

3:30 - that's exactly my point about property values. If the house 3 doors down from you were crumbling, you sure as hell would care. For example, the property owners near that building on Meserole that collapsed last year sure care about the effects on their property values, albeit not as much as any human life lost. Homeowners buy real estate for financial gain. It's that simple. As sure as everyone here has googled their own name, everyone here has typed their own address into Zillow.

Again, above that, the desire for human well being is a given.

My dilemma is this: I almost bought a house, but I didn't. When I severed my business relationship with the seller, they suggested that they could sell the house "as is" with only a certificate from an exterminator. I know it's illegal and I know they know (I reminded them of this). What I DON'T know is whether or not they actually told the poor schmuck who bought the property. For all I do know, they may have fixed the problem as cheaply as possible before selling so they didn't have to reduce the price. My point is, I DON'T KNOW.

I also DON'T know the buyer.

So, do you see how it could be awkward to call up a stranger and say "Hi. Did you know your house is going to fall down?". What if this was indeed fully disclosed by the seller as required by law? Then I'm a schmuck for butting my nose into their business. Or if it were fixed? Then I'm at risk for being a slanderer.

1:14/1:54/2:35 seems to be the only person here who gets the bigger picture. My whole point is that I'm concerned that, based on my interaction with the seller, there may be some sort of bodily danger here, or at least some sort of financial loss due to the possible malfeasance of the seller.

The point here is that I'm not sure and inspections don't catch everything. Sometimes there are big, ugly problems concealed behind drywall or because it's summer and not winter or it's not raining the day of the inspection. Ever heard of "Caveat Emptor"?

So, to recap: the ethical dilemma is that there is an infinite permutation of "what ifs" about the property after I left the negotiating table. What I do know is what existed when I saw the property. What I don't know is what exactly I should do about it, which is why I posted on this site. I'm fishing for suggestions here.

Again, if I were to identify or implicate the seller in writing or verbally, I could open myself to a lawsuit (ever heard of libel & slander?), so I am being extremely cautious about this. To do otherwise isn't being a good neighbor, it's just being negligent and stupid.

The best idea I've heard so far, is to send a copy of the inspector's report to the house, addressed to "owner" with the pertinent sections highlighted. Unfortunately, when the deal fell through and I no longer needed it, I discarded my copy of the report. So, that idea is out the window.

Any other ideas?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 12:34 AM

Also, I forgot to point out to 1:32 that "Mr. Brownstoner" is himself not "out" yet.

Duh...

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 12:44 AM

Hey OP CHILL OUT!!!

If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Don't post to an anonymous bulletin board on the notorious internet if you can't take some flak.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 8:44 AM

Mr. Rat-Out here:

Your 'ethical quandary' and other objections are bullshit. You believe people are in danger and that they may not be aware of it and instead of telling them--either anonymously, as has been suggested here multiple times, or straight-up--you sit around fretting publicly about, among other irrelevant issues, your property values. It is embarrassing and, to put it succinctly, morally reprehensible. (You imply above that the reason you can't tell them anonymously is that you threw out the inspector's report? Please.)

I have no problem with anonymity, yours or mine or Mr. B's, but also have no problem with speaking with you about this directly. Feel free to e-mail me at poverty2112 @ hotmail.com (erase the spaces)

Heck, feel free to forward me the contact info of your neighbor and I'll do the deed myself.

Ben

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 10:02 AM

Hi Ben-

First of all, to anyone and everyone who is offended by consideration of property values and did not at any point mean to imply that this was more of a consideration than human life. I acknowledge that I should have included more information in my original post, and for that, I apologize. I hope that now that I've said that so explicitly, the issue is clarified. Human life first, property values second. OK?

However, I still maintain that it's a valid concern when you have your life invested in a house.

Also, I have seen first hand what a libel suit can do to a person (total decimation of your finances, having your life inspected under a microscope, lawsuits that drag on for over a year, and ultimately, strategicly filing bankruptcy). So, I hope you understand my caution and my desire for anonymity.

I appreciate your willingness to "out" yourself, however I don't appreciate your preachiness. I've already emphasized many, many times that asking here for advice is a first step toward action.

Nobody complained the other day about the post about the overpriced, dilapidated house sitting vacant and on the market down the street from the poster. A problem house is a problem for everybody on the block and can even bring down values on surrounding blocks as well. I stand by what I said previously about self-zillow-ing curiousity and based on some of the other comments on the board, after human life, I'm not alone in my concern for my livelihood.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but if you reread my post, I never said I can't tell them anonymously because of the lack of the inspection report. If I had it still, I would send it over in a heartbeat because it's a 3rd party statement of the condition of the house during my negotiations and would in no way open me to a libel suit. I can't send over an inspection report I don't have, and if I put an inaccurate statement into writing I could be jeapordizing myself legally over something I don't know for sure.

As I said before, when you've seen it happen to someone first hand, you never, ever want to get close to a libel suit.

I do plan on acting on this, so please chill out with the moral high ground.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 3:01 PM

OK, so you've changed your thread from "What do you think I should I do?" to asking how should you go about informing the new owner safely.

Fine, great. Good job.

You've had several reasonable options offered: call 311, write an anonymous letter, or let someone here do it for you. Here's another one: contact the inspector and ask if s/he can send you another copy of the report. Do one of these.

For what it's worth, your fretting about a law suit seems overblown. But if it freaks you out, don't bring the seller into it at all--you had an inspection, decided not to buy, and only thought to bring it up with the new owner recently. If asked, you can say you don't recall if you told the seller or not. (Moreover, as several folks have pointed out, it's possible the new owner already knows, which would also negate your concern.)

What-the-fucking-ever. Just do the right thing.

Ben

Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2007 7:49 PM

I am a little worried you might be talking about my house, which I bought 'as-is' for less than 70% of the asking price because a previous buyer had bailed after learning about termites in the inspection. I hired my own structural inpector and termite inspector and discovered lots of damage and lots of crappy attempts to cover it up. I'm an architect/engineer, so I took a risk and bought the place anyway. I think the low price more than makes up for the work I'm doing to repair/restore the place.
Incidentally, I also forced the broker to hunt down the contact information for the previous inspector, and hounded him with calls and offers of cash for his report. Eventually he gave me a verbal report over the phone using pretty much the same language you've described -- lucky the house didn't fall down, toss up between restoring or tearing down (this is what makes me think you're talking about my house!).
But I digress. The point is... would I want you to march over to my house and deliver the "bad news"? I guess I would. I would probably be slightly annoyed, and I would think you're kind of a busybody/know-it-all, but ultimately I would be happy for the information about my house and happy to know that my neighbors care about my well-being. So I guess I'll see you at my doorstep soon.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 4, 2007 11:01 AM