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November 28, 2005
Lead Poisoning
Big topic, lots of q’s. Surprised more hasn’t been posted. It seems safe to assume that most / all old townhouses in Bklyn and Manhattan will have a few old layers of lead-based paint, yet it doesn’t seem to be a big concern to owners. I understand if you just keep painting over it and maintain it, its pretty safe but since everyone in this forum is renovating, isn’t it more of an issue for all of us? Is it something that’s pretty manageable?
More specifically, I would appreciate any thoughts on the following.
1. Good lead risk inspector / remediator & rough cost guideline? Is it incredibly expensive. Is ignorance bliss?
2. Is it automatically unsafe to strip leaded-paint off doors, molding, radiators etc or knock down plaster covered with some leaded paint? If a stripped door is then sealed with stain & finished with polyurethane, does the door still present a risk (ie, could the lead have gotten embedded in the wood and come out thru the finish)?
3. Re the lead-bearing dust created by renovation. Is it really a lot? Can it be dealt with relatively easily (vacuum, wetmop, give it some time etc)?
4. Is the soil in your backyard usually infected? Is it unsafe to eat vegetable grown in a backyard?
5. Is lead in their homes a big issue for the many young families in brownstone Brooklyn? I know the whole topic is stressing me out.
Comments
First of all, nothing I'm about to write can be taken as absolute gospel. Too many times, especially on this web site, it seems that people are just looking to argue a point rather than be constructive. Enough said!
I am 67, and have lived in several brownstones most of my life, as have my wife and 3 grown children. I have a very extensive background in retail, particularly the paint end of it...both retail and commercial.
Most of the hype (yes, hype) about lead-based paints is just done to scare people (There is more lead in the brass keys that you let your children handle and put in their mouths than there is in any possibility of paint in your home)
Most lead=based paint was used for exterior paint. By using exterior paint inside, it created a possible risk. I have tested every room in my home (a 4 storey limestone) and have not found a trace anywhere. Most paint stores sell an inexpensive kit for testing your home for lead-based paint. The kit is easy to use and should do the job.
Now, some specifics. Most ceilins were originally painted with "Calsimine". It did a great job, and was cheap. The problems with peeling began when it was top-coated with latex paints. Because latexes dry fast, they would "pull" the old finish off, and hence, peeling.
Most original woodwork (when the house was built) were first sealed and finished with shellac. Later on (as the shellac wore) they may have been top-coated with varnish, and even later re-coated with oil-based (usually gloss)enamel. DO NOT REMOVE ANY PAINT BY SANDING IT!!! If by some slim chance there is lead=based paint there, the dust will circulate throughout the house. DON'T DO IT!!! My preference for paint removal (and I've done a lot of it) is to use Peel-Away 6 or 7 with the paper (it's made by Dumond Chemical). For those people who prefer to use Zip Strip, Rock Miracle, etc., good luck! The prime ingredient in these stripper is Methylene Chloride. I can't think of anything more toxic on the paint market than MC. And yes, you can use a heat gun, again you'll have a lot of dangerous vapors (and the possibility of scorched wood, or even a fire).
The garden: I've been growing tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers for about 35 years now. I know lots of my neighbors have been doing the same. I guess if you really are concerned, you can have the soil tested. Try Hicks Nursery in Hicksville, I've always found them to be very helpful.
I hope this helps.
Posted by: Ken at November 28, 2005 7:18 PM
Lead paint contamination is very harmful to small children. Adults can handle much higher levels of exposure. New York City has just adopted new strict lead paint laws that are already showing up in the courts as children come down with lead poisoning. Most painters and contractors work under the premise that what you can't see won't hurt you. The laws are very specific about how many square feet of painted walls/ceilings can be disturbed by a contractor when children are present. No dry sanding can take place. Save yourself the worry and pick up the test kits from any paint store and test away. Home inspection services have more advanced testing methods if you find any positive results. NYC allows encapsulation of lead paint with a few paints designed for this purpose. This is were the hype begins as painting companies charge enormous amounts for this service praying on your fear and ignorance. I have tested my entire 1890 rowhouse and have not found any lead. However my friends apartment on the upper east side had just about every possible surface covered with lead paint, even her kitchen cabinets. So just test and let knowledge replace fear.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 28, 2005 11:30 PM
For testing, try Willow Envrironmental in Westport, CT
Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 6:52 AM
there is a lot of hype with lead even more with the home test kits if you dont cut into paint to break through the layers of paint you will come up with a false negative if you cut into paint you just broke the law the most worries come from your friction surfaces painted floors doors and windows im not being alarmist about it if you or your contractor follow safe work practices when you prep you will be fine this means seal off room plastic on floor wet wipe all surfaces upon finishing work and disposing of debris and rags immediately after that phase of work is complete replastic area and begin next phase as far as the vacume if it isnt a hepa vac you are doing more harm than good a hepa vac goes down to 5 micron particle size i would never use heat to remove lead it can vaporize if heat is to high making easy absorbtion into body much easier than dust form i agree with ken if you are going to remove it use peel away 7 its what i use its a very good product i havent found any better as far as it being a slim chance of having lead in the home i disagree you are faced with a dillema if you call in for test you make a paper trail if you follow safe work practices you are much better served as far as soil contamination you most times will have a higher contamination alongside a busy street there was more lead used in gas then there was in brass or paint since the begining of time
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 7:46 AM
Your pediatrician should be testing lead levels in your children. If you are nervous and renovating, have them tested.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 9:49 AM
We are a young family hoping to have kids in a few years. This is our plan for dealing with lead paint in our brownstone. We welcome feedback:
We've replastered and painted walls that have tested positive for lead paint. In a few places we used drywall.
Our woodwork is another story. Here's where most friction happens over time. The best thing would have been to strip it all and seal it or replace it. We couldn't afford that so the most economical thing to do was to strip it (not sand it!) down in places where the most wear and tear occur (doors, jambs, windows). We reduced the layers of paint so there is less friction and chipping over time and are repainting it.
In the backyard we have flaking paint over brick so we're having it power-washed. The back of the house will be draped in a large tarp that funnels the water/paint to a drain under the porch and (hopefully) protects the backyard and the neighbors. We have no grass or anything yet so we're hoping to wait a year and then try to grow grass and create a patio. We will try to grow vegetables but will bring in a lot of new dirt and compost for that.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 12:56 PM
You can definitely grow vegetables in lead contaminated soil. If you are concerned, you can have the soil tested. I had mine tested in Clinton Hill. It was off the charts full of lead. However, there's lot that says that lead collects in the leaves of plants. So grow fruiting vegetables. And wash them thoroughly before eating!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 12:57 PM
Peeling paint is a strong indicator of the presence of LEAD. If you see peeling paint on old doors that were repainted, guaranteed there is lead underneath, It eats its way to the surface. You can read up on it with the Dept of Health's website. In my buiding I had to replace doors, window sills etc. We also replaced old water pipes that were soldered with lead. I had the water checked after, and got a clean bill of health. After all that work , I had renters whose child's lead count was off the charts, her other 2 children were in the nornmal range. And yes it stressed me out.I then got lead testers from home depot and rechecked their apt, and it came back negative. Then one day I saw her in the backyard with her child and he was eating dirt(2 yr old). I also noticed he put everything he could into his mouth.Yes, that episode was stressful.
Posted by: Caren at November 29, 2005 1:50 PM
Thanks for all the helpful comments.
Looks like I'll be having all the old doors stripped offsite, the shutters stripped offsite or discarded, and all the door casing moulding and window wainscotting stripped onsite (not sanded) by a pro (who'll I'll ask to be very careful about the lead issues). The woodstrippers are saying once the doors and shutters are stripped and resealed, there should not be a lead issue (bc there'll be none remaining on the surface and nothing will be chipping off). After that, I'll be washing down and HEPA vacumming and home-testing frequently for a while. After that, if I have any lingering concerns, I'll get a pro lead assessor. Thanks again.
Posted by: Poster at November 29, 2005 2:55 PM
The other thing to consider is whether your house has a lead water main, which you should replace, according to my plumber. The city's lines are steel.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 1, 2005 11:40 AM
Whoever posted about having lead paint on the back of your house - can you please email me offline at jmartin@rho.com? We have the same issue.
Thanks
Posted by: Jeff at December 1, 2005 12:35 PM
other than having your child/children tested frequently, you should make sure that if they are at an oral fixation stage (when they're putting hands,fingers, toys, whatever in their mouths) and/or crawling on all fours, you wash their hands and toys frequently. Making sure your child is not anemic helps also (for some reason lead binds to iron. It's the long term exposure that's a problem. We got HEPA air purifiers for some rooms in our house (where the children play alot) after renovations. They're quite ugly but they also help during allergy season. We used a HEPA shop vac during renovations. We also now use a HEPA vac for regular cleaning. Using a high phosphate detergent like Cascade (I think it's a tablespoon per gallon??) and the double bucket (one for dipping the dirty mop and the other for rinsing the mop) method is a suggested way to clean lead dust in the house. Yes, we also sent our doors out to be stripped and we got all new windows. We were a bit paranoid, but our kids are young and we're hoping they'll remain the geniuses that they are ?! Someone once told me that when we were growing up, the average lead level in children was probably about .17 -- it explains alot about me and my husband.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 1, 2005 4:14 PM
Not all HEPA flitered vacuum cleaners are safe and effective at removing lead paint dust. Special lead dust filtration is needed and only provided through multiple filtered commercial vacuums. We are talking about filtration at 99.99% @ .12 microns
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2005 12:24 AM
Nilfisk vacuums were recommended to me.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 5, 2005 2:00 PM
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