Forum Archive: Posts by: vanburenproud

This is a continuation of the ongoing saga about my astoundingly high gas bills.
At this point, I have talked to three plumbers in my basement who have all said that my problem is this older, conventional boiler hooked up to a hydronic radiant heat/indirect domestic hot water system. Master Plvmber, while he hasn’t been in my basement, is a thoughtful and knowledgeable professional, and has written that he thinks there’s something else wrong–that an old boiler can’t be *that* much less efficient.
At this point, all due respect to MP, I am ready to believe the people who have actually been in my basement and seen my setup and all say the same thing, even when I press them and ask better questions than I asked of the first guy. It looks like if I want to see the efficiency of the stuff I already bought, it looks like I have to throw down for a condensing boiler.
Who among you, aside from Denton, has a condensing boiler? Does anyone know of a good website or formula for figuring out what size boiler you need to buy? Am I indulging in wishful thinking when I assume that I can get a much smaller boiler because the whole problem seems to be that my existing boiler is too powerful? What about tankless water heaters instead? Yes, I know that this would render my indirect tank useless, but John Hlad (who is a real gem, I must say) said that tankless might be even more efficient, and that they now make models that vent up a chimney.
Tell me your stories, give me your tips. It looks like I am about to go stimulate the economy!

Denton, the kudos may need to get revoked. I am reposting because I want to bring this back to the level of Present Problem That Needs Solving, instead of the “Denton Was Right” post, which is about thinking that there was a solution.

Master Plvmber and CMU think that the plumber I consulted was wrong, and that the facts of the “Denton Was Right” post are muddled. Which they are. I was mostly in it to congratulate Denton.

Here’s what I can clarify for MP and CMU and anyone else who knows a thing or two about boilers. If you’ve all got time, I would definitely like to get a sense of whether this plumber I spoke to was on the level, or in the ballpark:

ORIGINAL PROBLEM:

High gas bills in the middle of summer and beyond, with boiler firing often. High gas bills started after installing indirect H2O heater and hydronic radiant heat to the boiler that came with the house.

Boiler in Question: a weill-mccann (sp) that is, according to the plumber I met with last night, “84% efficient.”

Troubleshooting steps taken so far:

*Turned down temperature to 120 for awhile, this worked to lower the bill, but didn’t make showering very fun. I do like a hot shower.

*Made sure the heat was off

*Listened to the boiler closely for awhile and just made sure it was firing when it was supposed to. It seems to be firing after showers and such, and not you know, at random, now that the temperature is set to a reasonable 125.

Met with a plumber last night. Here’s what happened:

1. The plumber confirmed that there was no leak, but not by testing anything. He basically said that if there was a leak, we would all know because we would smell it.

2. He said that there was nothing wrong with the way the system was set up. The thermostat on the water heater is set to 125. He looked at the way everything was set up and definitively said that the problem was the boiler.

3. He said that the existing boiler was like 84% efficient, and that additionally the bottom of my boiler was “open” and pointed to the open vent area at the bottom, and that a condensing boiler would be a “closed” system that isn’t always drawing cold air. He did use the terms “open” and “closed.” He also talked about the basement being relatively chilly. I stated that the highest bills I’ve had so far were in June and July, but he kept going, explaining cold drafts, and etc.

Okay, now I am starting to feel a little dumb. But I’ll keep going.

4. He said that the big difference wasn’t just the 84%-95% difference, but the idea that the flame modulates. He said that hooking up an indirect tank to a non-modulating boiler is a recipe for a high gas bill, because you shouldn’t be using all your BTUs to cook a little hot water.

5. He also suggested that I insulate my pipes.

There are no 40 minute showers, very few baths, our *water* bill for the last quarter was only $60. The heat hasn’t been on all summer, I can’t figure any other place to start thinking about it.

Obviously I am going to keep interviewing plumbers, seeing as how the trusted and knowledgable MP has given up on the good people of Bed Stuy ; )

And what I am hoping sincerely is that you guys are right, and that there is something going on that isn’t a new boiler. It’s not the right economic climate to buy a new boiler.

Last week I posted a question about my high gas bills.

My DH and I hooked up our radiant heat and indirect water heater to the existing boiler, thinking that we were slowly building our Brownstone Temple of Great Efficiency.

What we got was $165 gas bills in the middle of summer.

We thought we had hooked something up wrong. We used a plumber, but he was not a boiler expert, and had never worked with radiant heat before, and was a friend. It was all very DIY and seat-of-pants.

We hung our heads in shame, figuring that there were issues with how we set it up. We thought the pumps were pumping too hard. That the flow was backwards. Or something.

The good news is that we did a good job hooking everything up.

The bad news is that we didn’t do something simple and wrong. We just need a new boiler.

For all you baby-steps people who are renovating a little bit at a time like us:

Do not hook up your mad efficient new system to your inefficient boiler! Your old boiler doesn’t modulate the flame, so every time your water heater is like three degrees too cold, you’ll be blasting out 110,000 BTUs.

Or anyone else who knows about indirect water heaters.

We installed radiant heat and an indirect heater to our old boiler around early spring, and ever since our gas bills have been rather high. I mean, astoundingly high.

Our heat’s not even on, and we sometimes pay $178 a month for gas, and it never goes below $100.

I am assuming that something got installed wrong, and that this is causing too much boiler-firing. It’s a complicated system–there are pumps and stuff… my husband knows what everything is, but I look at the whole thing and scratch my head.

The water temp is set low, around 120.

I know it’s ridiculous that we’ve been living with this for about six months. But…

…where do we start with the troubleshooting?