Newsletter |

Why Architecture Matters: Paul Goldberger and AY

ay-promo-fence-122409.jpg
The Leonard Lopate Show on WNYC on Christmas Day, was a rebroadcast of the original 11/17/09 show with New Yorker (and former NYT) architecture critic, Paul Goldberger. Speaking before the recent closing of the bond issue and property transfer (and erection of the arena propaganda, above), Goldberger went on record saying that he thought that AY “was, and is, a mistake”. He based that on his opinion that mega-projects don’t improve street life, and he hoped that the slowdown in the economy would give the project time for improvement, and the correction of mistakes. He went on to quote the celebrated critic Louis Mumford, who said that, “the great function of the city is to permit, indeed, to encourage and incite, the greatest possible number of meetings, encounters, challenges between all people, classes, groups, providing a stage upon which the drama of life may be enacted.” Mega-projects, and he cites the World Trade Center, as well as Battery Park City, are enclaves unto themselves that do not encourage this great mingling of people necessary to great city life. Goldberger conceded that he likes the redone façade of the proposed stadium, but still does not approve of the project. “Over the years, I've realized that streets are more important than buildings," he said. "The urban experience has to be had on foot."

The Atlantic Yards Report also has a full report of the Lopate/Goldberger interview, with commentary.



21 Comments

By stevieb on December 28, 2009 9:02 AM

I hope everyone had a good Christmas break!

By dirty_hipster on December 28, 2009 9:09 AM

oooo - we have a substitute overlord today. Everyone play nice!

By JPD on December 28, 2009 9:37 AM

So how does the current huge railyard pit contribute to "street life"?

By Johnny on December 28, 2009 9:42 AM

leave the pit alone! The pit contributes to street life by not siphoning our tax dollars to Ratner and Russian billionaires. The pit's doing its part.

By myplace on December 28, 2009 9:48 AM

I noticed on the last rendering that some of the streets that now cross over the rail yard will become part of the building. A drag for cars, but also a huge drag for pedestrians like me. To walk to Atlantic mall area/subway from Prospect Heights will mean going all the way around the arena and down Flatbush.

By rukiddingme on December 28, 2009 9:51 AM

The arena and surrounding plaza will de-map several streets in its vicinity. Fifth avenue will stop at Flatbush avenue. This is partly what is taken into consideration.

By Brenda from Flatbush on December 28, 2009 9:51 AM

Excellent insights from Goldberger and Mumford, proven by their opposites like Metrotech...

By benson on December 28, 2009 10:21 AM

Battery Park City is a tremendous improvement over what was there, and is quite popular place for living, entertainment and working. In case folks haven't noticed, it is cut-off from the city due to a semi-highway. That highway would have cut off ANY development that went in there, from the rest of the city.

Rockefeller Cneter is not a success?

Finally, anyone who knows what Downtown Brooklyn looked liked in the 60's and 70's would indeed say that Metro-Tech is a success. Question for all the naysayers: does anyone seriously believe that the companies that are presently located in Metrotech would have relocated to Downtown Brooklyn had it not been built?

By slopefarm on December 28, 2009 10:46 AM

Here's the problem with the debate.

Proponents argue AY vs. 30 more years of rail yards with nothing on top. That's an easy argument to win, but it drowns out any meaningful discussion of scale, planning, impact, etc.

Opponents argue AY vs. the road not taken -- smaller scale project with fewer public subsidies. That deal was on the table and the powers that be did not take it. I am largely sympathetic to this argument, and would have preferred a plan that came out of a meaningful process and that fit better in the community in which it will be placed. But I struggle with the question of how to get there, because it seems clear the deal is not going to get blown up. Opponents need a present tense answer to proponents AY vs. yards only argument.

I don't think, however, that Rock Center, BPC and MetroTech are fair comparisons. None of them butt up against lower density residential neighborhoods the way this one does. Where BPC is, there used to be water. It is built on landfill, separated from everything else by the West Side Highway (boulevard??), and is adjacent to large office buildings. It did no harm to existing communities. Rockefeller Center is right in the middle of Midtown Manhattan. Metrotech is farther removed from Brooklyn Heights and Boerum Hill than this one is from FG and PH. And for me that's one of the real planning disasters. A smaller scale development that maintained and enhanced the street grid would have helped knot the two neighborhoods closer together and respected the scale of each. This just puts up a big, high density wall between them -- like plopping Battery Park City around Court and Atlantic. Although i struggle to see a way to get to that kind of result now, it was an option once, not mere fantasy.

By bxgrl on December 28, 2009 10:56 AM

Rockefeller Center is different animal- it was meant to be the heart of the city. t has amazing public spaces and architecture- even underground, RC was planned to be a part of NYC, not a fortress against it. I don't think was even thinking of Rockefeller Center- but certainly the WTC was a prime example of the mistake of street demapping.

Metrotech is hardly the megaproject AY will be- but I have yet to hear anyone claim it brought a lively public space to downtown. AY will be a massive Fortress, closed off from the surrounding area, while massively straining it. You're cheering for a guy who lied, cheated and stole his way to getting the money to build (if in fact he has it yet). I find few redeeming qualities in a project that shorts the City on money for the Rail Yards, while they are cutting bus service (including service in my neighborhood).

By Montrose Morris on December 28, 2009 11:02 AM

Rockefeller Center is also designed to pull a pedestrian in. First of all, it's in the middle of midtown Manhattan, and as such, nothing short of a huge surrounding fence would keep people from passing through it. The shops inside and out bring people through it, and of course, the center is a tourist and pedestrian mecca. That would never be the case for AY, but that's why it's not a fair comparison.

A better comparison would be Co-op City, but that's an enormous, wind whistling, self contained complex totally cut off from the rest of the Bronx by design. Oh, wait a minute....

By benson on December 28, 2009 11:02 AM

Slopefarm;

I used the examples of BPC, MetroTech and Rock Cnter to counter Goldberger's ridiculous assertion that megaprojects do not work in a city. All three of these projects have been a success. Indeed, I would argue that as time has gone on, they integrate further into the fabric of the city and become more successful, and that goes to your argument.

At the time that Rockeffeler Center was built, the planners were considered nutso for building up to 6th Ave. At that time, 6th Ave had an "EL" running over it and was a small-scale backwater. The Rockefellers had the foresight to see that Midtown would continue to expand westward.

Which brings me to my question for you and other opponents: given that Brooklyn is projected to absorb another half-million people, where do you want the development to occur to absorb that growth??? During the 20's, the builders of 1 Hanson Place foresaw that Downtown Brooklyn would eventually extend to that area, given the mass transportation available. Does it not make sense to channel that growth into an area that is presently undeveloped, but has excellent mass-transportation. Would your rather that we build another Co-Op city or Starret City out in the fringe, where no mass-transportation is available?

By the way, notice that these complexes, which are "affordable" are never criticized as failed "mega-projects". Hmmm, why is that so????

By bxgrl on December 28, 2009 11:22 AM

benson- not for nothing but the fact there is a mass transit hub there doesn't address the issue of how well it will handle a huge increase. You know Brooklyn. YOu also know the train lines are all spread out- with no cross connections, the further out you go. By the time you get into the Atlantic Ave Sta. or Jay St/boro hall, train lines are packed to the rafters and they pick up a skizzload of passengers in Boro Hall. So you're packing on tens of thousands onto a rail system that is already fully packed, at it's hub.

All the visionary building that went on- including that of your beloved Robert Moses, was built with the idea that we would always be building and improving on the infrastructure and architecture. Unfortunately that did not happen. I agree building in NYC is a morass of red tape, incompetence, and back room deals- but as has been pointed out, a megaproject like Rockefeller Center was planned to be part of the City. The WTC, Metrotech, and AY all see themselves as bastions against the city.

By Minard Lafever on December 28, 2009 11:32 AM

Paul Goldberger knows about as much about Brooklyn as the man on the moon. He is a snob, like all architectural critics, and he is opposed to anything that is popular or that the average American finds comfort or delight in. It is the first rule in the archtectural critic's handbook: hate anything that most Americans like.

He is such an old windbag. I heard him speak recently. I think even he is not buying his own spiel any more. He has recently "discovered" the beauty and subtlety of Los Angeles. I give him another year in NYC.

By slopefarm on December 28, 2009 11:36 AM

benson, I have no problem with developing housing at that site, and not limited to brownstone scale. I would have liked to see some real planning go into this that allowed the development to coexist with and enhance the surrounding neighborhoods without boxing them in. Less density and better use of the street grid, and you could have something that works. I also have no problem with the zoning swaps along the lines of those we've seen over the last few years -- opening up avenue corridors (4th, e.g.) in exchange for preserving a sense of scale in existing neighborhoods), so long as planning for amenities (retail, schools, recreation etc. is part of the mix). I think growth can continue to be accommodated with a mix of smaller scale infill and larger scale along well-selected corridors -- not to mention in other boroughs that have had less recent develoopment than Brooklyn (Queens and Bronx, in particular). There are lots of vacant and underutilized lots in various Brooklyn neighborhoods. I don't think the choice is between AY as planned or another Starret City in the middle of nowhere.

By Minard Lafever on December 28, 2009 12:22 PM

One of the big problems with the AY site, and I mean this with all honesty, is the delay in getting something built. Controversial projects need to move fast. The longer it is stalled the more the critics will come out of the woodwork to bemoan this or that. Once it is built everyone will accept it, they will buy and rent apartments there, go shopping there and buy tickets to games and concerts in the arena. If you build it they will come, and only the architectural critics will complain, although in this case, even they may like it.


By BH76 on December 28, 2009 12:34 PM

Benson: How do you define the success of Metrotech? There is tons of unused space (quietly marketed for sublet). People moved there after 9/11. Many have now downsized. There is no retail to speak of (ex. fast food). No 24/7 -- dead by 6pm m-f and dead all weekend. If not for city offices (FDNY) and Poly, it would be a wasteland. Yes it was a needle park 25 years ago, but so were a lot of places that have had organic development and not sweeteart deals with politicians.

By dannyhellman on December 28, 2009 1:32 PM

I have no objection to the idea of building over the trainyards. Affordable housing, accompanied by an upgrade to the transit infrastructure would be a good thing for the area. What I hate most about AY is the stadium. Stadiums are nothing more than rackets designed to funnel taxpayers' money into developers' wallets. The court's decision to uphold the use of eminent domain in the AY case shows how corrupt our system is.

By Big Jugs on December 28, 2009 7:11 PM

D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!

By BrooklynLove on December 28, 2009 8:03 PM

the better if is so tired. we don't live in theory. if you can sell it, it doesn't exist.

By BrooklynLove on December 28, 2009 8:03 PM

can't sell it

Post a comment

Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.

Related Posts with Thumbnails