Co-op of the Day: 7 South Portland Avenue, #3A
Last year, Apartment 5A at 7 South Portland Avenue in Fort Greene hit the market asking $425,000 and ultimately sold for $415,000. That unit however wasn't nearly as nice as this new listing for Apartment 3A. The half-floor, one-bedroom co-op has a light, airy feel and has recently undergone a tasteful renovation that maintained historic detail while lightening the space up. This one's asking $550,000. What do you think it'll go for?
7 South Portland Avenue, #3A [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
51 Comments
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 12:46 PM
By etson on December 16, 2009 12:52 PM
I agree w/ 11217 on both points! (except the kitchen)
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 1:01 PM
This sold two years ago for $519k.
If the reno was done after that, it looks like they won't be making any money on this sale.
Sweet looking pad, but it seems tiny for that price.
By E_Minor on December 16, 2009 1:01 PM
Beautiful apartment in a brilliant location. Just not sure if people are willing to pay over $500k for a 1 bedroom in Brooklyn these days.
By Minard Lafever on December 16, 2009 1:02 PM
A couple of observations:
What are they counting as the fourth room? The foyer?
The living room is very small for both a dining and living area. There is no washer drier and it is a third floor walk-up. And plus the real killer for Brownstoner fans: SHINY FLOORS!!
just kidding on that last point.
It is a cute apartment.
Very nice and clean.
Miniscule.
When they converted these old houses/turned SRO's/turned co-ops, they really should have made fewer larger units.
But since this is "Prime Fort Greene" -the old timer in me loves that concept- I would think they should get a good price but not more than a half a million, I mean, its a very little apartment.
By Miss Muffett on December 16, 2009 1:03 PM
Yes, beautiful apartment - price though seems high for 1BR in FG.
By Brownstones Half Off on December 16, 2009 1:07 PM
Seriously small. Only an eighth of a brownstone asking a quarter of it's overall comp (which is also overvalued by a factor of two according to historic fundamentals). Who the hell would rent this for $4,583/mo?
The RE pumpers are doing a great job of herding the sheep into the slaughterhouse.
***Bid half off peak comps***
By Butterfly on December 16, 2009 1:10 PM
quote:
Who the hell would rent this for $4,583/mo?
who the hell would even rent it for 2500 a month? seriously wacked out.
nice renovation tho. but i can renovate a refridgerator box, plop it down in a crappy neighborhood, and pay a hell of a lot less than a 1/2 million dollars.
*rob*
By brownstoner newbie on December 16, 2009 1:11 PM
Nice apartment but I think the agent should at least learn how to use spellcheck. Impeccibly??
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 1:13 PM
"Who the hell would rent this for $4,583/mo?
The RE pumpers are doing a great job of herding the sheep into the slaughterhouse."
First of all, it looks as though most so far have said the place is probably a bit overpriced, so not really sure who is pumping anything on this thread other than saying it looks like a nice apartment.
Secondly, with 10% down (as this apartment seems to require) the monthly mortgage and maintenance is $3308.
With the more typical 20% down, the monthly mortgage and maintenance is $3000 per month (not including the interest deduction).
So...
A. Your figure is wildly off
B. I believe that 1 bedroom rentals at Avalon Ft. Greene start at $2350 per month, and I think most would agree that this place is in a far superior Ft. Greene location.
By Butterfly on December 16, 2009 1:19 PM
you are SO delusional 11216
*rob*
By TD on December 16, 2009 1:21 PM
"nice renovation tho. but i can renovate a refridgerator box, plop it down in a crappy neighborhood, and pay a hell of a lot less than a 1/2 million dollars."
what does this mean exactly?
By joeingowanus on December 16, 2009 1:22 PM
BHO, not seeing the $4583 per month either. What are you using, 8% interest rates or something?
By saminthehood on December 16, 2009 1:24 PM
Nice brownstone apartment at a great FGreen location. A little small, but not claustrophobic. The price is a bit high; you can clearly get more for your money if you rent - but it only takes one person..
By Minard Lafever on December 16, 2009 1:27 PM
important question to ask: what is the 2010 maintance?
By jstadt on December 16, 2009 1:28 PM
looks real nice to me. price seems about right.
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 1:29 PM
"important question to ask: what is the 2010 maintance?"
If you ask, BHO, I guess it's around $1900 a month.
:)
By hotrod on December 16, 2009 1:34 PM
Great apartment, great price. Comps from last year are irrelevant - the market is up and in much better shape now. And this is a fantastic renovation in a prime building located in a great neighborhood. It should go for at least 550K.
By Brownstones Half Off on December 16, 2009 1:34 PM
WRT "RE pumpers" I was referring to mainstream media.
C. To monthly mortgage/maintenance, add the quantity of hypothetical net loss (or subtract hypothetical net gain), divided by hypothetical months of ownership. That's the true rent versus buy analysis, not just the short-sighted monthly nut. You have to put money down and get it back at resale to use just that monthly nut. A longshot during this housing collapse and greater depression.
That being said, I realize that either this brownstone is bigger than your typical 20x40 or it's not really half a floor. So rather than a retarded price, it's just a run-of-the-mill stupid price (overweight by factor of two).
***Bid half off peak comps***
By the_donmega on December 16, 2009 1:43 PM
From the pictures, this apartment looks great. I especiallly love the neighborhood!!
By Brownstones Half Off on December 16, 2009 1:44 PM
Rent, joeingowanus. Price/(10 x 12). 10 x annual rent is a NYC historic market fundamental that this collapse will crash down to.
http://www.gmaloneco.com/oct5nyt.htm
Yeah, 11217. That $630/mo maintenance (and only 10% min. down for a co-op) is kinda suspect. Way out of whack with the ask. As taxes and utilities spike, it'll be well on the way to $1,900/mo.
***Bid half off peak comps***
By Brokedeveloper on December 16, 2009 1:57 PM
Not a bad pad if you can get it for Four Fiddy and plan to stay a while. Five Fiddy just seems like too much. Definitely not an apartment for a pack rat.
By brooklyncurious on December 16, 2009 2:06 PM
this is an absolutely lovely apartment, and having bought right in this location myself i can attest to how wonderful it is to live in the heart of fort greene. but i agree that it is over-priced. a couple of weeks ago i saw this as a FSBO on the NYT website for i think around $569k. the seller obviously didn't get any offers at that price point and turned to corc. Very interested to see what it moves for.
By Ron Burgundy on December 16, 2009 2:08 PM
Primetime location and a lot more space than one would think. The large hallway entrance naturally curves into a spacious living room set just off the dining area. Plenty of light pours through the many windows that offer views of the park! A cute but and efficient kitchen allows for plenty of home cooked meals. This lovely apartment finishes off well a large bedroom that also offers plenty of natural like. Located on the 3rd floor this beautifully renovated apartment is perfect for couples! (and pet friendly)
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 2:16 PM
> who the hell would even rent it for 2500 a month?
Well, according to Streeteasy under the rentals tab, the info for this very unit says:
11/11/2009 - Listed by Corcoran at $2,750.
11/18/2009 - Listing is no longer available.
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 2:19 PM
How is $630/mo maintenance suspect? It actually seems a little high for a small unit in a small co-op with no services.
Saying it is "well on the way to $1,900/mo" makes you sound like a buffoon.
By DeLepp on December 16, 2009 2:20 PM
Too much money. This is July 2008 pricing. 10% down is not surprising for brooklyn coops, many places are fine with that. If worried about shareholders finance's you can always ask for 1-2 years maintenance to be placed in escrow.
Sure much of that maintenance is property taxes.
By Ringo on December 16, 2009 2:24 PM
It seems to me that the price on this place should start with a 3 and not a 5. But I wish the sellers good luck -- it's a cute place.
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 2:25 PM
I saw that too, Snark about the rent.
And if it indeed rented for $2750, that is actually probably a little MORE than it costs to own the apartment when you factor in the mortgage interest deduction.
Some people still don't get it.
I think this place is a bit overpriced, but not by as much as BHO would like some people to believe.
By dataoner on December 16, 2009 2:34 PM
WOW what a beautiful apartment in an AMAZING neighborhood!! i think its fairly priced for the renovations done and the prime location of it. Love it!!
By Brokedeveloper on December 16, 2009 2:42 PM
The mortgage interest is not deductible from regular income if:
1) You hit the AMT
2) You rent the apartment out
3) You don't have a job (and therefore no income)
You have to be very careful how you value the mortgage interest in potential trade-offs.
By Butterfly on December 16, 2009 2:46 PM
WHO THE HELL IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS IS GOING TO RENT A TINY ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT FOR 2750 A MONTH IN FORT GREENE? sorry for going all... ugh what was that posters name who complained about prices on everything? but that prices for a one bedroom rental just seems bananas. even for a share.
it's gotta be geared toward a couple who BOTH have parents subsidizing their rent. that's the only thing i can think of
*rob*
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 2:47 PM
Agreed, brokedeveloper. And obviously you are still paying out of pocket $3300 a month (if 10% down) so you need to have a very healthy income to support this place, but I just don't think some people really get what market rate rents are like around this city in the prime areas. I truly don't. As I said, if they are charging (and getting) $2400 a month for 1 bedrooms over at Avalon FG, then one would expect this place to command a little more because of the ideal location. I still think this place will sell for a number with a 4 at the beginning, though...
By DeLepp on December 16, 2009 2:54 PM
At $550 this place should have a working fireplace and outdoor space. Granted Fort Greene park is right across the street but this place is too small for the price.
By saminthehood on December 16, 2009 2:56 PM
$2750 rent for this is absurd. I know of larger pre-war doorman building apartments on the UWS (a more expensive 'hood) for less. And I know of a one bedroom around the corner in a similar Brownstone that recently rented for $2150 (which I thought was high).
By Minard Lafever on December 16, 2009 3:02 PM
agreed with DeLepp, with a fireplace, and a deck, this place might, might, be worth $550,000 -that's a lot of money in this economy for a view of Fort Greene Park.
By arches on December 16, 2009 3:09 PM
>>The mortgage interest is not deductible from regular income if:
>>1) You hit the AMT
Not true - mortgage interest is deductible under AMT. You might lose a _portion_ of your real estate tax deduction, but this is much smaller than the potential tax savings on interest.
By twc on December 16, 2009 3:13 PM
this place is awesome and the block couldnt be better. its close to the park, with nice updates, original details and decent monthlies. i think that when this place sells (which will be sooner than later) the widget will be off by more than 10% yet again.
By Brokedeveloper on December 16, 2009 3:14 PM
Arches, the mortgage deduction under AMT is being phased out. That's how I read it, anyway. I am, admittedly, no accountant.
By Nomi on December 16, 2009 3:48 PM
I'm not an accountant either (ha), but the rent vs own question -- purely the financial part -- is a lot more complex than comparing what you'd pay in rent for the same space. Because you can rent the same place for less doesn't not mean that that renting is automatically more financially advantageous. I don't know by how much and it would vary obviously with individual tax situations, etc., BUT your rent would have to be more than a few dollars lower than your expenses to own for it to be truly a better deal, low enough to put away -- invest -- enough to overcome the amount you are "throwing away" in rent. Right? Of course there are unknowable factors here -- how much will the owned property appreciate; how much will rent go up -- but there are formulas that account for this in whatever ways that are beyond my knowledge. Just saying you cannot merely say that you could rent this place for less than the mortgage, etc. That makes no sense.
Anyway, at this asking, the price per foot is close to $800. I don't know what the best areas of Fort Green can get, but this seems a little high to me. Looks like a really nice place for its size, tho. Too bad the exposures are darker ones with all those lovely window, tho.
By Maly on December 16, 2009 3:48 PM
This is insanely expensive. You could rent a 1br with a garden, on the park, for $2,400. Why would anyone plop down $100,000 for the privilege to pay more (even after tax deductions) for a 1br without a garden? It seems completely unreasonable.
By Adam Dahill on December 16, 2009 3:48 PM
BHO- please explain your $1900 per month maintenance.
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 3:55 PM
> $2750 rent for this is absurd.
Agreed. I'm just saying that apparently Corcoran was asking that, and since the listing is gone, they may have got it.
Or, perhaps it was a ruse to give a false impression to a potential buyer of the potential rent.
By Maly on December 16, 2009 4:01 PM
Snark, you are so devious. I would think the owner may have wanted to rent it out first, and asked for an amount that covered his/her cost, then the agent said the rent was never going to fly, let's try to sell instead. I'd rather believe this, than this Machiavellian plot.
By Brownstones Half Off on December 16, 2009 4:30 PM
"Saying it is 'well on the way to $1,900/mo' makes you sound like a buffoon."
Makes me look like a baffoon too. I guess I was exaggerating considering the high ask. But I expect all maint/cc's to go up with taxes and energy costs. So does Minard @ 1:27.
But guys, stop comparing rental to monthly nut. Effective projected cost of owning versus renting requires, to the monthly nut, addition of projected net loss (underwater in bear market) or subtraction of net gain (appreciation in bull market). You have to consider the risk of losing your downpayment (forced sale) which in the typical 20% downpayment case requires a price drop of the same (even less considering the miscellaneous costs). Put $20K down on a $100K property which then drops in value by 20% three years later, that's yo' ass (20K/36 mos = $555/mo + nut, gross). $1,110/mo + nut, gross, if -40% drop.
$2,750 (if they could get it) means a fundamental value of $330,000 (10 x annual rent). But that's a downward moving target as rents continue to slip.
Yes, there are benefits to ownership over renting. But when markets bottom, owning becomes cheaper, not more expensive. Remember the 90's? RE will become undervalued again.
***Bid half off peak comps***
By etson on December 16, 2009 5:17 PM
"$2,750 (if they could get it) means a fundamental value of $330,000 (10 x annual rent). But that's a downward moving target as rents continue to slip."
Why do you use 10x, BHO?
Not trying to make a point, just curious.
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 5:19 PM
> (10 x annual rent)
You keep stating that this number is a fundamental, but when was the last time that number was actually reflected in the NYC marketplace?
By DeLepp on December 16, 2009 5:22 PM
If I recall case-shiller had NY at 15X for long term. In 2008 that number got up to 22X.
By DitmasSnark on December 16, 2009 5:27 PM
Thanks, DeLepp!
By 11217 on December 16, 2009 5:35 PM
Assuming $2500 a month rent (which might be slightly high) works out to $450,000 using 15X which is the number I usually hear when referencing NYC.
BHO is using the metric for suburban Las Vegas.
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