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November 6, 2009
New Kosciuszko Bridge Won't Come Cheap

In October, a Department of Transportation panel narrowed the list of potential designs for the new Kosciuszko Bridge down to three finalists, including what The Brooklyn Paper calls the front runner, above. In addition to a new look, the bridge of the future will have nine lanes instead of six (yay!) as well as a bike and pedestrian lane; the whole thing will be set at less of an incline than the current structure because tall boats no longer go underneath. All this good stuff won't come cheap though: We're looking at a $1 billion price tag. Sounds like a lot of dough to us, but apparently that's what it takes to get bridge builders out of bed these days. “For a bridge that is a mile long in New York City, $1 billion is the going rate,” said DOT spokesman Adam Levine. The Feds will pay 80% of the freight, leaving the state with the rest. But the state is now talking about slashing its transportation spending, so it remains to be seen of the bridge, over which 160,000 vehicles pass every day, makes the cut.
The Billion-Dollar Bridge! [Brooklyn Paper]
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Comments
I'm sure it will be done efficiently, on budget and on time as well.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 6, 2009 9:06 AM
hmmm.... so what happens to traffic during construction??
Posted by: joeingowanus at November 6, 2009 9:12 AM
That is lovely and if we manage to see it completed before I'm retired I'll assume Guliani became Gov and managed to clean up albany.
Posted by: DeLepp at November 6, 2009 9:14 AM
They just need to glue a couple of extra lanes on the side of the present bridge. I'll do it for $200 million, savings of 80%.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 9:16 AM
The Koz will collapse before construction starts on the new one.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at November 6, 2009 9:17 AM
They build along side old bridge and remove it after new bridge is finished.
Posted by: IMBY at November 6, 2009 9:17 AM
That is lovely and if we manage to see it completed before I'm retired I'll assume Guliani became Gov and managed to clean up albany.
Posted by: DeLepp at November 6, 2009 9:14 AM
Will that be before or after Kerik gets out of jail?
Posted by: rf at November 6, 2009 9:21 AM
Is that blue water I see in the Newtown Creek?
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 9:22 AM
Repeat this fact to yourself over and over again: ONE BILLION DOLLARS to build an insignificant bridge.
Ain't the present mix of unions and heavy regulations in NYC grand???? No wonder this town has lost most of its business sectors except those that are flush with money (Wall St.).
Remember this number when you hear all the lofty pronouncements on this site about the need for subsidized housing, unions, heavy environmental regulations, more regulation of the building trades, etc. : ONE BILLION DOLLARS to build a bridge.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:23 AM
so what's the problem with the old one?
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 9:25 AM
so what's the problem with the old one?
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 9:25 AM
Kerik has great entertainment value. Kooky Kerik and razzing rudy.
Posted by: DeLepp at November 6, 2009 9:26 AM
I wasn't going to start in on that, benson, so thank you for doing so.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 6, 2009 9:26 AM
1 billion....that is 4 clocktower apts or 4 gingerbread houses.
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 9:27 AM
"so what's the problem with the old one?"
It's being held together with ritz crackers and big league chewing gum
it really is treacherous and in poor repair.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at November 6, 2009 9:28 AM
Uh, Pete, I think your math is off by a factor of about 100 or so. We're talking ONE BILLION DOLLARS to basically build an overpass over a small creek.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:29 AM
How much would it cost to fill in the creek instead?????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 6, 2009 9:31 AM
DIBS;
Fill in the creek?!?!?!?! Aren't you concerned about the ancient multi-ethnic burial grounds on the bottom of this creek????
You're banished from this site for 24 hours, for speaking such heresy.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:33 AM
my math only off by factor of 10 Mr. Wizard.
So how much do bridges cost these days anyway? I haven't appraised them lately. Yes, does sound like handsome amt.
Just annoying how you blame people that would actually do the physical labor as reason for high cost rather than corporations that will make the more dramatic profits.
Who will do the bidding and how much do they contribute to those that can pick the winner.
And don't forget the extra costs because of whiney NYers who think that any major construction project should somehow not inconvenience them in the least.
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 9:37 AM
In addition to being in a state of poor repair, the old bridge is steep, winding, and narrow, so that trucks have a hard time climbing and descending. This causes huge delays.
Because Newtown Creek is navigable water, the bridge either has to be really tall, or movable. That's a big factor in driving up the cost, along with the union labor, regulations, etc. Maybe they should reassess how tall it really needs to be to accommodate the barge traffic the canal still gets. How often does the Pulaski Bridge, which is much lower, have to be opened to let boats pass?
Posted by: Sparafucile at November 6, 2009 9:39 AM
DIBS, it wouldn't be cheaper, you'd have to bring the whole BQE down to surface level too, or the rake would be too steep.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 9:40 AM
Hmm. A billion for a bridge, or a billion for a stadium? Sounds like a no-brainer to me, right?
Posted by: architect66 at November 6, 2009 9:42 AM
"Fill in the creek?!?!?!?! Aren't you concerned about the ancient multi-ethnic burial grounds on the bottom of this creek????
You're banished from this site for 24 hours, for speaking such heresy."
LMAO Benson - don't worry this is Greenpoint/Queens and there's no Brownstones - the Brownstoner faithful won't mind.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at November 6, 2009 9:43 AM
Pete;
Nice try. It will require physical labor to build a bridge ANYWHER, and corporations will be in charge of the contracting ANYWHERE. The big difference between NYC and other places are these: unions and their onerous work rules, and the heavy regulations here.
How much would it cost to build this bridge outside of NYC?? I would wager anyone on this site that it would cost 50% less. The reason?? Once again, the toxic combination of unions, heavy taxation and onerous regulations.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:44 AM
For comparison.
In Charleston, SC they just finished building (2005) the longest cable-stayed bridge in the western hemisphere at 4km in length. Eight lanes wide with pedestrian/bike lanes. Total cost $700 million. Not only came in under cost but also sooner than predicted. Swedish construction company Tidewater Skanska built it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ravenel_Jr._Bridge
Don't we need some kind of panel of experts to discuss planning of the new bridge for a few years before we attempt to build this thing? Say at a cost of $700 million?
Posted by: IMBY at November 6, 2009 9:48 AM
Oh and Pete, one more thing.
The asking price for the Gingerbrad house was 12.5 million. Unless there is a new math out there, the cost of this bridge would therefore be 80 times that amount. Hence my order-of-magnitude statement that you were off by a factor of 100.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:48 AM
You New yorkers think you are so special. Benson and Dibs, you get special demerits for getting ideology get ahead of facts. Guess how much the collapsed bridge in Minnesota cost to rebuild? $234M. Guess how long? 1,200ft. I know it's early for the math, but with 5,200 ft to a mile, what does that mean for our NY bridge budget relative to a Minnesota bridge?
Posted by: Maly at November 6, 2009 9:50 AM
"Don't we need some kind of panel of experts to discuss planning of the new bridge for a few years before we attempt to build this thing? Say at a cost of $700 million?"
Planning has been going on for decades. Also for the Goethals Bridge twinning, the Gowanus Expressway replacement, and of course the 2nd Avenue subway and #7 extension. I sometimes think these projects are mostly to employ the designers and planners. Actually putting a shovel in the ground is beside the point. I was stunned when the train to JFK actually got built over the Van Wyck. Of course that was a Port Authority job paid for by a dedicated surcharge on airplane tickets.
Posted by: Sparafucile at November 6, 2009 9:54 AM
Maly;
Please refer to IMBY's comparison.
Your comparison is flawed. That bridge was built under a crash program to replace a collapsed bridge.
I would refer you to do the math in IMBY's example. 4 km = approximately almost 13,000 feet.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 9:54 AM
Do you really think in this econ. climate the City will go for non-NYC labor over a local co. to save $$$ and time? Maybe they should, but it's so doubtful that it would ever happen.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at November 6, 2009 9:55 AM
see Gingerbread house already 1/2 off. BHO was right.
Without seeing figures on the estimates is purely speculative to see how much labor costs factor in. It is just the kneejerk response to blame labor/unions. Yes I'm sure would cost less if brought in truckloads of illegal laborers and set up a work campsite for them and paid them a few $ per hour. Or just skip paying them end of week.
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 9:55 AM
"he bridge of the future will have nine lanes instead of six (yay!)"
Nothing to yay about, quite the contrary. Add lanes and traffic increases.
Posted by: cmu at November 6, 2009 9:55 AM
benson - stepping out of character for a minute and into my real world persona: having worked on infrastructure projects across the US, I can tell you that the major cost drivers we face in NYC are time and logistics. Due to the density of our city and the age and lack of redundancy of our existing infrastructure, things just take a lot longer here, and that adds up to $$. Labor costs are maybe 10-15% higher for union labor in the city.
Posted by: architect66 at November 6, 2009 9:57 AM
CMU - not unless the also increase the number of lanes of the BQE either side, which isn't happening.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 9:59 AM
What's the shortlist of firms?
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at November 6, 2009 10:06 AM
Benson, I think my Minnesota example is pretty relevant because the awarding of the contract was under intense scrutiny ( always a good thing in my book) and it was an urban environment. Building large infrastructure in a dense environment will always be slower and more expensive.
I followed IMBY's link and it's a gorgeous bridge. I am not saying we shouldn't challenge budgets and scrutinize public work, because it's clear there is a lot of room for graft. Let's look at all the leaks, not just the concrete mob tax or the union rules or the politicians' handouts.
Posted by: Maly at November 6, 2009 10:10 AM
I doubt that when all is said and done this bridge will cost only one billion dollars. I say it will cost double that. I don't understand why other world class cities have such nice roads and bridges and here our roads are constantly in a state of closure,semi-closure and disrepair. I can only assume it is deeply entrenched corruption at all levels of the construction and permiting process.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at November 6, 2009 10:10 AM
Minard, the highways in Jakarta have deteriorated quite a bit over the past ten years as well.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 6, 2009 10:25 AM
Jakarta = world class city?
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 10:28 AM
Minard, I can't talk about all the world-class cities, but in Western Europe, the secret to first-rate infrastructure is first-rate taxes. People squeal here about paying $4/ gallon. In the EU zone, they would pay double, and the excess tax goes to infrastructure construction and repairs.
Posted by: Maly at November 6, 2009 10:37 AM
This seems like a good time to reevaluate whether the BQE is something we really need and want cutting through Brooklyn and Queens. Why is building this bridge such a foregone conclusion? Decommissioning the BQE would be a huge boon for the neighborhoods it travels through. Imagine the added value if we had a highline style park or even just newly contiguous neighborhoods with less air pollution!
Posted by: paulbuttons at November 6, 2009 10:38 AM
"nine lanes instead of six (yay!)"
What an idiotic statement. Nine more lanes of cars producing more asthma for our kids, more demand for Middle East oil (and the resulting wars) and more giant chunks of fiberglass taking up space in the crowded city. And what happens when these nine lanes of car traffic disperse (usually speeding) into the rest of the Brooklyn and Queens neighborhoods causing a local increase in noise, traffic pollution and blight?
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 10:48 AM
Epiphany, the bridge is nine lanes, not the BQE. There is no current plan to expand the BQE to nine lanes.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 10:50 AM
paullbuttons- if you're being sarcastic, bery funny. If you're being serious- I'd love to hear your alternative plan to the BQE. Do you really have no idea the impact of forcing all that traffic through local streets would have? First of all, they couldn't take the weight, they're narrow, the pollution would shoot through the roof- (not become less) over what it is now, and all of Brooklyn would become a parking lot.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 6, 2009 10:52 AM
Maly is right about the gasoline taxes in Europe.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 6, 2009 10:56 AM
If that's the design, it looks really nice.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 10:57 AM
Yep, the roads in England are excellent, way ahead in quality of anything I've encountered in the US (apart from a good stretch of highway I remember in in Arizona).
The petrol costs there are huge however.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 11:01 AM
Yep, the roads in England are excellent, way ahead in quality of anything I've encountered in the US (apart from a good stretch of highway I remember in in Arizona).
The petrol costs there are huge however.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 11:01 AM
"There is no current plan to expand the BQE to nine lanes."
So why is the writer cheering? Does he want to pull off on the shoulder and take in the view or think it will help him get to his Hampton house quicker on the ridiculously packed LIE? Don't think he'd want to get Queens quicker. Hmmm. Sounds like LA mentality.
Three less lanes might reduce the budget and maybe (but not likely) the funds could be used to make the G Train and LIRR better and a more attractive option than spewing pollution into our kids' lungs.
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 11:03 AM
It is not just a bridge over a creek; it also includes the interchange between the Long Island Expressway just east of the Midtown Tunnel and the BQE just north of the Williamsburg Bridge. Do any of you ever drive to Queens???
Most of the backups on the current bridge are related to the interchange and related merges.
If there were no bridge, gigantic trucks would be driving through many Brooklyn neighborhoods at street level.
Posted by: rf at November 6, 2009 11:03 AM
Man, I was living in Europe when the French got all pissy about some sort of EU rule about truck drivers and their work week... so they blocked the highways and didn't let trucks through.
Anyway, it turns out that was the week I decided to rent a car when a friend was visiting... drive all over for a week. High gas prices to start PLUS a gas shortage (with the threat of empty gas pumps). Talk about painful to the ol' wallet! Yowzerz. This was when the Euro was at $0.75 (unlike the $1.50 it is today) and gas was running around $7.50 a gallon ($2 per liter) I think it was about $2 a gallon here.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 11:04 AM
The tool from Maroon 5 works for the DOT?
Posted by: hermanjoshua at November 6, 2009 11:08 AM
Epiphany -
NYC - especially LI is TOATALLY dependent on truck traffic - (look up cross harbor rail tunnel, PA, and Junipar Park Civic association - to learn how NIMBISM is what is helping to keep things this way)
Trucks slow down on inclines (they are heavy) and despite the fact that this bridge will have less of an incline than the current, inclines/bridges become bottlenecks of traffic due to trucks (and even cars) slowing down as they enter a bridge....if you have more lanes at the bridge point, it can help open up this bottleneck - thereby reducing traffic, pollution and all the ills you discuss,
Of course there is an argument that by easing the bottleneck, you will reduce overall traffic, thereby making automobile traffic more convenient, and thereby resulting in more cars and more traffic - but it is a tradeoff and as long as NYC is dependent on Trucks for freight, there isnt much you can do.
Posted by: fsrg at November 6, 2009 11:12 AM
Epiphany - because 9 lanes will free up the traffic sitting waiting to get on the bridge becuase its too narrow. That currently leads to traffic sitting in jams and spewing out pollutants from the brdige all the way back down to the union exit instead of just buzzing by, which means lower pollution emissions in the area.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 11:13 AM
maroon who?
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 11:15 AM
fsrq -- Not that I have data, but I would think reducing "time on the road" would far outweigh the "convenience" argument when it comes to pollution etc.
The current bridge bottleneck probably adds 15 mins to travel time (though I've been stuck around there for 1/2 hr easy)... basically cars idling in place, not getting to their destination. Every car (except maybe a Prius) gets ZERO miles/gallon when they are stopped... just belching out CO2 etc with no purpose.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 11:20 AM
Yeah Arthur Ravenel Bridge is so comparable. AR Bridge was built in a middle of a great cosmopolitan area, densely populated, above a protected cemetery and the living standards, thus labor cost, is very high.
Posted by: crimsonson at November 6, 2009 11:28 AM
tybur6 - I dont have the data either but since the traffic is largely a function of trucks slowing down (Bridge traffic builds up well before there is even the slightest traffic on the rest of the BQE) the incline reduction and more lanes may be a net benefit ( I mean you could put speed bumps every 100yrds too cause that would make driving really incovenient and would reduce car trips but you have to balance the utility of surface transportation like autos vs the increased traffic/pollution.) No doubt opening the road up will invite more trips, the question is over a 365day 24/7 analysis will reducing this bottleneck ease more traffic then it invites - I dont know either- but I am guessing b/c of the nature of that spot=yes
Posted by: fsrg at November 6, 2009 11:29 AM
It's politically difficult, but the following is what I see as the ideal transportation infrastructure solution:
Make make highways and parkways VERY expensive to travel on, but make sure they are extremely well maintained and worth the cost. This will remove the folks that are "borderline" users (i.e., folks that don't *need* to use them, but do.) Then traffic will flow nicely for three groups (1) trucks and commercial vehicles; (2) public transportation -- buses and taxis; and (3) "luxury" users -- both everyday rich folks and folks like me that want to leave the city once in a while and do it in under 2 hours. All three of those groups are VERY happy even though they are paying more -- because the net costs/savings work out. Huge savings in time vs. more $$.
Yes, this is the notion of congestion pricing. This got crushed by the "borderline" users of the roads... folks commuting to Manhattan from Queens and Brooklyn. Commercial users of the roads (e.g. the Teamsters) support such schemes. Take a look at London.
The road maintenance and design issues only require a small portion of the extra revenue... the excess is pumped into public transportation options. And because of the lower volumes of cars, other transportation options emerge... such as dedicating and restricting lanes to buses, trams and taxis.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 11:32 AM
I love that people think that milk and bread and veggies and all other essentials will just magically appear every day on stores' shelves without highways, trucks, and traffic.
Other big US cities from DC to San Francisco seem to have a fine, functioning highway and surface transportation system in addition to a fine, functioning mass transit system.
The Bay Bridge had a major problem last week and it was closed for four days. Four days. In NYC it would have been closed for six months and repairs would drag out for two years.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at November 6, 2009 11:35 AM
Dittoburg and Tybur6:
So at least you do seem to understand and acknowledge the pollution problem. I'm breathing a little easier now.
I can get across the lower bridge across Newtown Creek from Ft. Greene in about 30 minutes (the amount of time that tyburg6 is sometimes sitting in traffic). I can get to Midtown Manhattan in 30 minutes. Chinatown 15 minutes. East Village 20 minutes. Granted if you've got to haul kids or it's raining, it's an issue. But the times require a bit of new transportation strategy (and we're lucky we have options and people thinking about it in NY).
You've probably biked. It's good exercise too (besides breathing all the car exhaust).
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 11:46 AM
3) "luxury" users ---- nice idea but I would guess that many daily users are not affluent at all and use the highways are parkways to get to jobs that are not central business district. Or travel takes so long using public transit becomes unfeasible. Most people on this site tend to the affluent and working downtown/midtown manhattan and pretty well served by subway at home and work (even with all the complaining about F train, etc). And we tend to think just about everyone else lives/works with similar mass transit options (and works daytime hours). But I believe reality is good %age of workers don't make as much and their jobs are much more scattered around NYC and region. And their job search/prospects would be much more limited if became too expensive to drive.
Posted by: Petebklyn at November 6, 2009 11:51 AM
Petebklyn:
That's an excellent point. That's why public transportation should be reevaluated. Things like dedicated bus lanes, more funds to make public transportation faster, more reliable and more comfortable transport could change the point you make. Unfortunately, the gas and car companies will only fund campaigns of politicians who will make cars the better option.
For the record. I'm far from rich and "luxury". My greatest asset is that I have an affordable place near excellent public transportation and new bike lanes. And I'm not lazy and overweight.
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 12:01 PM
Another vote for Congestion Pricing. And a toll on the Kosciuszko. That would cut down on single-driver cars, bring money to the city, and pay for a portion of the bridge costs.
This bridge is ready to go. Better get hopping.
Posted by: buttermilk channel at November 6, 2009 12:01 PM
Petebklyn makes a very good point. Mass transit is not the same in Bklyn, Queens of the Bronx as it is in Manhattan. In many areas you need a car to get to work because there is little or no mass transit. Or the way the trains and bus lines are laid out, you can't easily transfer from one to the other.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 6, 2009 12:07 PM
My friends in London tell me that the congestion pricing there is just another cost of doing business surcharge and that is has done nothing to ease traffic in the center of the city. They also say that the tolls themselves go almost entirely into the maintanance of the toll scanning and tracking system which is extremely complex. The real revenue to the government comes from the exorbitant fines that are issued if one fails to pay the toll in the alotted 24-hour window.
There are a lot more poor people in NYC than in London. I don't think such a regressive tax will fly here.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at November 6, 2009 12:14 PM
tybur6 - we definitly agree about congestion pricing - but considering that despite all the hue and cry re: global warming and dependency on mideast oil we still can get an effective fuel/oil tax should tell you that any broadbased effort to make auto transport expensive is a non-starter.
It is not politically difficult - it is impossible - all your opponent has to say is that you are for the rich, who will be able to drive on empty roads paid for on the backs of the middle class - look what happened to Corzine when he proposed raising the NJ tolls or the screaming about congestion pricing - which hit drivers into lower Manhattan m-f 6-6 (which more or less is ONLY the rich-what middle class person drives in to Manhattan - it cost $30+ to park)
The majority in this city/country just arent interested in having nice, fast mass transit alternatives (which is what you SHOULD get if you raise the taxes for driving)
Posted by: fsrg at November 6, 2009 12:15 PM
Petebklyn -- I couldn't agree with you more about the far flung folks in the City. That's why (as Epiphany said) this requires BOTH sides of the equation to work. That's why congestion pricing failed -- too much focus on the "harm" when really it's just change... public transportation most definitely has to be reevaluated and CHANGED for it to work.
Where are the North-South routes connecting Queens to Brooklyn? Why is everything so Manhattan-centric? Have the commercial centers shifted in this city? (the answer is yes) Is this shift being served by public transportation OR the highways? (the answer is no)
Just because folks of modest or less income *need* a car now, that doesn't mean it should be that way. In fact, in this city... these folks should most definitely NOT need a car to commute to work. The highways should most definitely be restricted to / be most beneficial to the 3 groups I identified.
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 12:16 PM
Minard... Both of the things you say are false. Your friend in London is just spewing hearsay propaganda about the congestion pricing there. It is quite effective. You're right -- it has become a new cost of doing business, but the commercial enterprises can accomplish MORE business. (more deliveries per truck, etc.)
And why is it exactly that there are more poor people in NYC compared to London? That's silly talk. The fact is, London just has a better transportation system in terms of coverage -- i.e., while it's focused on the "City of London", it's far easier to get from X to Z without having to deal with Y. (X=Brooklyn, Z=Queens, Y=Manhattan)
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 12:21 PM
Considering that Hizzoner just spent $100 million clams on his campaign, a billion dollars for a mile long bridge sounds quite reasonable.
Posted by: DitmasSnark at November 6, 2009 12:26 PM
tyburg, I think you are living in la-la land. Have you been to London lately? It makes NYC look poor by comparison. Also the Brits have something called a class system. The poor are used to making way for the rich, so a tax system that aims to drive the lower classes off the streets in order to make driving more convenient for the upper classes is accepted there somehow. I, as an American, think such a system is appalling. The street tax has done absolutely nothing to ease conjestion. You're just being doctrinaire and refusing to look at the real facts. A NYC politician who puts in place a street tax here will be voted out of office asap. Do you remember who opposed congestion pricing most vocally? John Liu. It did not hurt his political career, just the opposite.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at November 6, 2009 1:09 PM
There's a pretense in NY politics that congestion pricing disproportionatley affects the working class, when we all know how much cash you need to commute into Manhattan from Brooklyn each day and then parking in Manhattan for 10-12hrs.
The working class are the ones on the subway along with the rest of us. Wasn't it Slimey Silver who killed congestion pricing?
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 1:14 PM
Minard - you are living in la-la-land if you don't recognize that when you make something more expensive (tax), it gets used less.
And if Central London is still too congested than all that tells you is that the tax is too low.
Posted by: fsrg at November 6, 2009 1:29 PM
> Also the Brits have something called a class system.
Thank heaven we live in a classless society!
Posted by: DitmasSnark at November 6, 2009 2:18 PM
Congestion pricing is just a stealth tax, increasing costs for few tangible benefits.
My home city in the UK voted down a proposed congestion pricing plan in a referendum last year, with 75%+ against. I understand that opinion in London is fairly evenly divided.
Posted by: etson at November 6, 2009 2:25 PM
Minard Lafever:
John Liu won in a runoff. And I remember reading an article about how he was often late trying to get to his campaign stops in Flushing because he was often hopelessly stuck in traffic coming from Manhattan, where he does most of his political business.
By the way, when you say you are an American, does that mean you're from the United States, or do you just negate all the other South and North Americans in places from Chile to Canada? Some of these other Americans in cities like Bogota have made innovative and interesting changes in their traffic systems recently by taking a risk on changing the status quo. That said every city is different. What is a given is that New York is hopelessly clogged with traffic.
You offer a lot of rebuttals and negatives. What's your plan, sir?
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 2:37 PM
Thats cos Mancunians are cheap-arses.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 2:39 PM
Actually... If you just build more highway, you'd have to knock down a lot of houses. Then there would be fewer people, so congestion would go down. Right? :-)
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 2:50 PM
"Thank heaven we live in a classless society!"
As a Brit, I always suspected that they didn't have any class in America.
Posted by: dittoburg at November 6, 2009 2:53 PM
Guilty as charged, ditto.
Posted by: etson at November 6, 2009 2:54 PM
etson - it isnt a "stealth tax" - its a DIRECT tax - drive into the center city and pay....just like an Alchol Tax, Cigarette Tax, Toll or Gas tax -> as for its tangible results - it has the same results as any other tax, it raises money and the higher the tax the more it discourages consumption/use of what is being taxed......
Its really not that complicated, you have to raise revenues - for we (govt) do now, and for the additions that we may want (more mass transit for example) - it seems to me that if you HAVE to raise revenue, better to raise it against things you (society) doesnt want (like driving in center city, excessive consumption or importing fuel from middle east slime balls) then against things you do (like production, and innovation).
There is NOTHING stealth about it - except that politicans dont want to admit that it is a tax (raise revenue)
Posted by: fsrg at November 6, 2009 3:26 PM
Minard, imagine if New York City had one bridge going from Manhattan to Brooklyn and it collapsed. That is like the Bay Bridge. It's strategic.
I take the Pulaski bridge all the time. Maybe I am in danger of imminent collapse.
Instead of building a whole new bridge for $! billion, why don't they just sister some joints?
Posted by: mopar at November 6, 2009 3:46 PM
"This will remove the folks that are "borderline" users (i.e., folks that don't *need* to use them, but do.)"
t6, this is really funny. Do you have any idea how many poor people drive from Brooklyn & Queens to LI every day for mfg jobs? A lot. And I thought you were a friend of the working classes.
Posted by: denton at November 6, 2009 3:56 PM
I used to take the bus and train between Bed Stuy and Jackson Heights to and from work. It took about 70 mins. 20-25 mins in the car.
Posted by: rf at November 6, 2009 5:07 PM
Agree with denton. And a look at a subway will show very clearly why- the entire system is Manhattan Centric. Try to get from one part of Brooklyn to another- its an exercise in frustration. If you want to talk about how time is money, it makes more economic sense for a working person to own a car than take 2 trains and a bus 2.5 hours each way, everyday to work.
Posted by: bxgrl at November 6, 2009 5:38 PM
rf:
I hear your frustration. However, if you used the 70 minutes to read and read 20 pages in that hour, you could read 4800 pages in a year. That's about 19 medium-sized novels a year. If you learned 20 new vocabulary words in another language on each trip, you would have, in a year, a second language vocabulary of 4800 new words.
Now say New York City actually does some work on the transportation system by shuffling some money from fees on private cars to make the trip roomier and more comfortable (maybe even a straight shot on fast buses on dedicated lanes), you'd be able to nap and feel rested enough to do something fun when you got home. The City, if it had the will, probably could fairly easily make most trips significantly faster too with some special planning (though unfortunately you'd have less novels under your belt in a year).
I say we might as well get started gradually doing this type of thing now while we have wiggle room, because it certainly is not going to get easier or less complicated as the years and decades progress.
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 6:04 PM
(a followup on my last statement) Actually, rf, I think that the real sloution is to get excellent cross and interborough public transportation planned, but I made a math error in my above idea on how to make the best of a crappy situation. (see above posting). I only took into account one way of a two hour trip. So you'd have been able to read 38 novels.
Unfortunately, New York politicians can't find their way into a paper bag (unless it's filled with money). So it might be best to do everything possible to fend for ourselves and figure out the work/transportation situation on our own.
Posted by: Epiphany at November 6, 2009 6:32 PM
Hi folks;
I'm back from a day driving my mother-in-law all around Queens, to take care of some business.
Sorry, I'm not buying the arguments above that the cost of this bridge is driven higher by the density of the city. This bridge is being built in an area of the city that is relatively low-density, especially on the Queens side.
RF: I wasn't born yesterday, and know darn well that the cost includes the interchanges (I'm a mechancial engineer).
I agree with Minard. This bridge will probably cost double the projected amount. The cost situation in NYC is outrageous.
Posted by: benson at November 6, 2009 7:04 PM
OK, Epiphany, if you agree to wake my daughter up and make sure she leaves for school on time, and then come home and make her dinner, I would love to have 140 minutes to read on the subway and bus, vs. less than an hour in the car.
I do miss my subway reading time. And yes, I read a lot of NY Times, novels, and I even did plenty of Sudoku waiting for the G train.
Posted by: rf at November 6, 2009 9:55 PM
RF -- Did you even touch a highway to go between Bed-Stuy and Jackson Heights? Sounds like you're creating a beautiful red herring here....
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 11:10 PM
rf: Yes, as I mentioned in one of my notes, that's a big catch in the discussion, having kids. I don't, and I am always amazed at the amount of energy and focus it takes in this city for parents to get the simplest thing done. It's really impressive.
It really wouldn't have to be like that if we didn't have such corrupt and greedy politicians running things. I mean, instead of billion dollar bridges, ticker tape parades, TV political campaign ads (the ultimate waste of money!), helicopter rides and subsidies for luxury high rises, there could be some help with things like child care, decent schools for people who can't afford private schools, affordable housing and innovative transportation policies.
We all should have more time to read up on stuff, do Soduku or just meditate. It'd be good for everyone we cross paths with daily. It's hard to keep a positive attitude, but what other choice is there?
Posted by: Epiphany at November 7, 2009 12:31 AM
RF -- Did you even touch a highway to go between Bed-Stuy and Jackson Heights? Sounds like you're creating a beautiful red herring here....
Posted by: tybur6 at November 6, 2009 11:10 PM
Marcy Ave. to Monroe St. to Classon Ave. to BQE (past Williamsburg Bridge merge then over Kosciusko Bridge, past LIE interchange) to Broadway/37th Ave. exit; 37th Ave. to 85th St. to 34th Ave. to 86th St.
I can take Marcy to Madison St. to Bushwick Ave. to the Jackie Robinson Parkway to Grand Central Parkway to Northern Blvd. to 86th St., but it takes longer.
Posted by: rf at November 7, 2009 6:09 AM
bf: So, then you haven't experienced the sometimes 30 minutes backup delay described in post by tyburg6 ("I've been stuck around there for 1/2 hr easy")? That would make at least one of your one way trips y your estimate 50-55 minutes (if you can find a parking spot right in front of your job) — an extra twenty by train and reading time.
In fact I look up on that clogged freeway often and see standstill traffic at different hours of the night and day. All those particles from car exhaust float and drop into different neighborhoods—and into the lungs of people and their kids. Someone should figure out a way to visually show the flow of emissions particles off high traffic areas into neighborhoods.
And if you want to go to Downtown Brooklyn, Ft. Greene, Park Slope, Williamsburg or Prospect Park, do you ride bike or drive? Because it's no more than a half an hour from Marcy and Monroe. And with a saddle pack on the back of a bike you can haul lots of groceries (I use a regular camping backpack).
Posted by: Epiphany at November 7, 2009 10:16 AM
I usually take the bus or train to downtown Brooklyn or Ft. Greene except at night when I drive.
I am fearful of bike riding; sorry but I just don't want to go splat. I'm a single mom. My daughter wants to bike-ride but I am inclined to say no. (She's 13.5.)
I travel against the rush hour traffic so it's pretty easy with very few traffic jams. If we are running late, I drive my daughter to middle school (20 min vs. 35 min. on the train and on foot: A train from Nostrand to Borough Hall; F train to East Broadway; walk 5 blocks south on Madison to Catherie, 2 blocks east on Catherine) on the Lower East Side then to Delancey to the Williamsburg Bridge, then to the BQE, etc. When we lived in Clinton Hill and she went to school in central Chinatown it took 15 mins in the car and 40 mins on the train.
After many failed experiments, I can now get off the highway and make my way through the streets from any exit but it usually takes longer that way. Coming home I get off at Metropolitan Ave. and go down Union Ave. to Harrison to Tompkins to Hancock to Marcy. But it took a long time before I could find my way through Williamsburg and Greenpoint.
Posted by: rf at November 7, 2009 11:44 AM
Can't we just fill in Newtown Creek with cement? So like that those idiots that don't know how to drive up the bridge will not cause traffic by not stepping on the gas. Can't we use low paying illegal immigrants to do the work just like we use them for everything else in this country?
Posted by: hannible at November 8, 2009 7:26 AM

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