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October 5, 2009

Boerum Hill: In a Nutshell

The New York Times profiled Boerum Hill this weekend (timed, perhaps, to coincide with yesterday's Atlantic Antic), focusing on the neighborhood's boutiques and its transformation from shady ("rooming houses, drugs, and prostitution" in the 1970s and '80s) to chic. On the real estate front, prices in the neighborhood are dropping as they are everywhere else, but still, nothing's cheap in Boerum Hill: townhouses selling for over $1.5 million, condos and co-ops between $600,000 and $1 million, and rentals starting at $1,300 for a studio. New construction in the area includes Green on Dean and the Nu Hotel on Smith, as well as several planned or unfinished projects on the periphery of the area. Beyond the housing market and the area's commercial offerings, the profile gives a nod to yesterday's Atlantic Antic and it profiles Boerum Hill's schools with their test scores of varying levels. Did the writer miss anything?
Subway Lines Galore, But Who's Leaving? [NY Times]
Atlantic Antic photo by Jim in Times Square

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as usual in these media ariticles, for drama and contrast they paint the days of old worse than the were and today better than it is.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 9:39 AM

quote;
shady ("rooming houses, drugs, and prostitution" in the 1970s and '80s) to chic.

what an idiotic statement. shady IS chic. the kind of chic this freak speaks is called Bland.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 9:41 AM

Would have thought they would have mentioned PS261 instead of or in addition to PS 38. Much more popular and draws kids from out of zone (including my son from Clinton Hill).

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at October 5, 2009 9:41 AM

Is there any part of NYC that was not shady at some point in history????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 5, 2009 9:47 AM

These kinds of articles are always annoyingly written from the Manhattan perspective.

Posted by: grilledsardine at October 5, 2009 9:50 AM

Boerum Hill was very shady in the 70's. Pacific and Dean were lined with parked 18 wheelers and truckers being serviced by the local prostitutes. God forbid you were an absentee landlord your brownstone foyer would be used as a makeshift bed.

Posted by: eastriver at October 5, 2009 9:52 AM

sounds like nyc was so much more fun back then :( i think i was born in the wrong time :( i know, i know, i should just move to detroit or something.. buy me a plane tikkie and maybe i will.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 9:59 AM

Not so sure of that rob. When I got out of school in 1980 I stayed in Chicago. If I had moved to NYC I would be dead now. I'm sure you can figure out why.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 5, 2009 10:00 AM

oh yeah youve mentioned that before. well obviously i wouldnt be part of the gay skank scene back then, as i am not part of it now. i probably wouldnt even BE gay if i was born in another time.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 10:03 AM

In the late '80s-early 90s there were crack viles found in the playground at 261 and hookers on the stoops of Pacific Street. PS 261 really should have been in the article as that school was a key part of the neighborhood becoming family friendly. Many Smith Street businesses had no discernable business, except for the bodegas, the butcher, dollar stores, and Johhney's bootery.

Posted by: BH76 at October 5, 2009 10:13 AM

Boerum Hill is really nice now. State Street reminds me of the way Park Slope used to be.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 5, 2009 10:18 AM

And crack vials could be found in lots of other neighborhoods and schoolyards then (even UES) and can probably be found now. So you can always paint this awful picture which is not untrue but ...
What do you mean had no 'discernable business'? there were barber shops, never a dollar store but not the 'boutiques' of today but stores that sold household goods, cheap toys,
takeout chinese, the latin restaurants (which some still exist), furniture store, etc, etc etc. It was busy during the day for working class people. Just seemed to cater to different demographic.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 10:22 AM

sadly unless a neighborhood is nothing BUT wine shops, yuppie bars, organic supermarkets, designer baby clothing stores, it is considered crapola and unliveable. how did this come to be anyway?

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 10:29 AM

Rob,

From what I read from you, you wouldn't last 5 minutes in either 1970's Brooklyn or 2009 Detroit.

Posted by: Brokedeveloper at October 5, 2009 10:29 AM

maybe didn't mention 261 because much of the zone for the school is not Boerum Hill.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 10:29 AM

Pete -- I was told this by someone in the local business group at the time; and there were/are a lot of storefronts. I enjoyed the men playing dominos on the corner of Smith and Pacific; they kept an eye out. Further up Smith it was a bit dicier back then.

Posted by: BH76 at October 5, 2009 10:32 AM

Robs ranting is getting tired. There are plenty of areas in this very city that are still shitty and dangerous and even more places around the country that are even shittier.

If you want to leave NYC all together, Philly is only a short drive away and you can hang out with crack heads and hookers till yr dick falls off. You can even by a shitty little row house for 80k.

Posted by: Santa at October 5, 2009 10:47 AM

quote:
From what I read from you, you wouldn't last 5 minutes in either 1970's Brooklyn or 2009 Detroit.

there was no hannah montana in the 70s so i wouldn't make such sweeping generalizations on what i could or could not survive.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 10:48 AM

can I say that every business on SMith was legit? no. But I really can't say that now.
What I do miss, is that I now have no place to repair, service appliances, or buy refurbished appliances. And deliver 30 minutes later. Just saying these articles love to paint a much darker picture than reality....not that you can say anything is untrue but the jist of it really not how I saw/experienced it.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 10:48 AM

"Sadly unless a neighborhood is nothing BUT wine shops, yuppie bars, organic supermarkets, designer baby clothing stores, it is considered crapola and unliveable."

Gotta say, some words of wisdom there, Rob.

I used to work on State between Hoyt and Bond back then, and it was not the cesspool the writer makes it out to be - big surprise. Petebklyn is right, they always make the past, or the bad parts far worse than they actually were, in order to make the present look far better in comparison. Boerum Hill was another working class neighborhood, like most of brownstone Brooklyn, in the 70's and 80's. It had its good streets and bad streets, and was always a mixture of incomes and ethnicities. If people remember, back then, most of prime Park Slope and even Brooklyn Heights were in similar condition. Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill, and Red Hook, along with Boerum Hill, were all considered the same South Brooklyn working class neighborhood.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at October 5, 2009 10:55 AM

pete, there's a place on 5th ave and degraw (around there) that repairs appliances. The outside is yellow.

also there might not have been Hannah Montana but ABBA was going strong.

Posted by: Santa at October 5, 2009 10:55 AM

I love Boreum Hill. A lot. Really enjoy how urban the neighborhood feels, and Atlantic Avenue is awesome.

But it's still got issues. Someone was murdered last week on Wyckoff between Bond and Nevins. And I walk that block a lot.

Posted by: 11217 at October 5, 2009 10:59 AM

thanks for the info about appliance place on 5th. I knew there were couple there but figure driven out of there by now also.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 11:02 AM

anyone read Clockers?

Posted by: Santa at October 5, 2009 11:03 AM

Pete, try Expert Center on Court Street.

Is it just me, or does Boerum Hill extend south of Warren, say to DeGraw?

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 11:03 AM

"The 78th Precinct recorded its first murder in more than a year and a half on Sept. 27 when a resident of the Wyckoff houses was slain.

Details of the crime were unavailable, but police said that Victor Zapata, 28, was murdered as he walked on Wyckoff Street between Nevins and Third at around 1:15 am."--
1st murder in year and a 1/2 for precinct. And I bet you don't walk that block at 1:15am too much...and as with plenty of murders - person probably knew that perp.

Generally people don't call anything south of Warren Boerum hill...but to me CarGard, CobHill, BoerHill is generally same 'hood so I don't get too excited about creating boundaries. After all - take in those areas add in Red Hook and part of what some people call Gowanus...and adds up to size of ParkSlope.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 11:09 AM

I know, Pete, you're right, of course, but you know how some people are about "neighborhood" boundaries. I just always thought that both Cobble Hill and Boerum Hill extended to the north side of DeGraw, and Carroll Gardens began on the south side. What delineates any of these neighborhoods on the east is anyone's guess.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 11:13 AM

I heard from someone on the block that the victim did not know the perp, but whatever...I'm not saying Boreum Hill is dangerous, but since I have a friend on Wyckoff, I do sometimes walk home late, but probably will be taking a car from now on.

Posted by: 11217 at October 5, 2009 11:14 AM

so now you have informants 11217 in neighborhoods you dont even LIVE in? hahahah :)

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 11:17 AM

Between Park Slope and Cobble Hill, I usually walk on Pacific or Dean.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 11:17 AM

I read Lush Life, man that book was overrated.

I also usually walk on Dean.

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 11:21 AM

Peterbklyn, did you live in Boerum Hill in the late 70s/early 80s? I did - we paid $650 for the top 2 floors of a gorgeous brownstone on Bergen between Hoyt and Dean. The blocks between Smith and Bond were mostly quite lovely from the exterior, but a LOT housed SROs. Walking towards Nevin things got a bit shaky, and there were a lot of prostitutes on the streets between Nevins and 3rd.

I had my purse stolen twice walking on our block, both times in broad daylight. You would call the cops about such things and they'd just put you on hold or even hang up on you - this was just not important enough to respond to. We had friends robbed at gunpoint for their wedding rings one evening. There was always a lot of tension between the new gentrifiers and the people living in the projects and you frequently heard sirens. Nevertheless, there was a wonderful community spirit, in great part by newer residents forming block associations.

For those who criticize the wine bars and yuppie boutiques: There were very few places to shop in the late '70s. We could pick up milk and very basic items at the small market on Smith near Bergen (it's still there, now expanded). Otherwise, we would go to the Key Food on Atlantic Avenue and Clinton near Brooklyn Heights. There was a ghetto supermarket down the block and it was smelly; the fresh food was decidedly not fresh. Other than that, a lot of boarded storefronts on Smith. The first generation of restaurants and shops were not displacing a lot of old mom and pop businesses; they were mostly opening up in long-vacant storefronts.

So no, from my first-hand experience of Boerum Hill, the NY Times article did not exaggerate the past.

Posted by: bookistan at October 5, 2009 11:21 AM

would it be correct to say that many areas of Bed Stuy and crown heights have a similar feel that Boerum Hill did 20 years ago?

Posted by: Santa at October 5, 2009 11:30 AM

Wow, bookistan, thanks for sharing that.:)

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 11:31 AM

i tried to read lush life too!!!! i only got about 50 pages in.. zzz. did it ever pick up? really long book so i put it down with the intention of going back to it but i never did. right now im reading high maintenance by jennifer belle about a woman who gets a divorce from her rich husband and is forced to be a riff raff renter lol.

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 5, 2009 11:31 AM

I really lived on teh border and spent a lot of time down State St. as I also worked where MM did for a time. Never a hellhole but you had to be careful. As you do now. But even by me on Court St. it could be scary- so was Schermerhorn when I first moved over there. The first week I lived there we had a sniper on a nearby big apartment building shooting it up and of course the place I moved into was in a direct sightline. We waited a long time for more stores and restaurants, and for Key Food on Atlantic to clean up their act- they were the closest to me. But it was not the Wild West.

Posted by: bxgrl2 at October 5, 2009 11:35 AM

Hmm, that sounds good. After the descriptions of gentrified LES, it turns into a boring crime novel, my LEAST favorite. You may also like "I'm so Happy for You", a sendup/satire of women's friendships and the secret jealousies they often barbor toward one another.

Now I'm reading "The Battle for America 2008: The Story of an Extraordinary Election."

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 11:37 AM

bookistan, I can't speak to the '70s, but when I moved to Carroll Gardens in the mid-90s, most of the storefronts on Smith Street were boarded up or shuttered. Grocery had opened, and there were a couple of other new restaurants, but that was it.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 11:38 AM

Carroll Gardens is the kind of Brooklyn living I dreamed of before I moved here. That place is mystical.

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 11:41 AM

santa- Having lived both places, I don't really think so. boerum Hill felt empty in many respects- bed-stuy and CH never feel lifeless- there is a rich cultural and community life that is often overlooked because it was not considered " upscale"

Posted by: bxgrl2 at October 5, 2009 11:44 AM

I 1st came to the neighborhood then(late 70s), Bookistan, but have never lived in some people's official boundaries of BH.
I believe the MetFood was always there on corner of Baltic,
I do not remember boarded up storefronts at all (although at any time there are bound to be vacancies as there are today). I do remember a fresh fish market on Smith near Bergen. And that corner of Pacific/Smith was the vege/fruit market.
No doubt crime was more prevalent and our whole city has seen drastic reduction since those days. my general impression was that muggings were more common east of Smith.
I'm surprised that the NYTimes article didn't focus on Atlantic Avenue which has really seen makeover also.
I don't recall ever being afraid or avoiding those streets except late at night. at the time belonged to YWCA and would most of time walk home in evening on Atlantic but would also take Pacific/Dean or bergen.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 11:48 AM

CarrollGardened, I didn't think Grocery and the other restaurants opened up on Smith until much later than the mid-90s. The first restaurant I recall is Sur, in 97 or 98, and at night, it seemed like the only place along blocks of shuttered storefronts. But the Met grocery store on Smith and Warren or thereabouts seemed to be there for much longer.

Posted by: CGfan at October 5, 2009 11:53 AM

Yes the Met food. Maybe they've cleaned up their act as have many smaller supermarkets (that has certainly happened in Park Slope where I now live). Maybe not so much boarded up storefronts as vacant ones or storefronts that had been bricked over (maybe being used as cheap/illegal living spaces?). Anyways, I did feel scared later at night walking from the Smith St. subway down Bergen (almost all our entertainment/going out took place in Manhattan in those days); probably as a woman I was more of a target.

Even back then, Atlantic had a lot of antique stores and a single gourmet grocery (I believe between Hoyt and Bond) with nice take out that seemed like an oasis to me back then.

Posted by: bookistan at October 5, 2009 11:54 AM

bxgrl2, I can understand that. Even the less than desirable areas have very lively street life. I wasn't here in the 80's so I cant relate to the emptiness but Bed Stuy and Crown Heights are always packed with people during the day. I guess I was asking more along the lines of the working class nature of the areas.

Posted by: Santa at October 5, 2009 11:55 AM

CGfan, you may be right. I don't recall exactly which restaurants opened when, only that Smith Street was largely vacant when I moved to the neighborhood but for a few new restaurants that went on to form the backbone of the new "restaurant row".

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 12:00 PM

I think when people refer to boarded up or shuttered - it is because time of day. I really don't ever remember many vacancies on Smith.. but if went in evening, yes, almost all were closed by then. It was a daytime place not the nighttime place as is now. Walk down that street now in morning - - it is shuttered.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 12:05 PM

Petebklyn, I agree that it was the time of day, because almost all the storefronts were closed by dark. There were also quite a few storefronts that were private "clubs" -- and even in the day, there was blocks without much in the way of a storefront that you'd enter to buy something. It may be shuttered in the early morning now, but if you walk down Smith, there are still many retail stores open by noon (and many of the restaurants as well).

Posted by: CGfan at October 5, 2009 12:13 PM

CarrollGardened, I once heard that Patois was the first of the wave of Smith St. restaurants but don't know if it truly came before Sur.

Long before the Smith St. restaurant scene began there was a quite remarkable restaurant for a few years on Hoyt and Bergen, where the Brooklyn Inn is now. It was called Huberts and was run by a husband and wife team between 1979 and 1981 or '82; they later relocated to Manhattan and were quite successful for several years. The Hubert's were among the early adherents to the Greenmarket aesthetic. They also brought in guest chefs - it was quite amazing in the early 1980s to enjoy a special meal at Hubert's in Boerum Hill prepared by chefs like Diana Kennedy and Jacques Pepin!

Posted by: bookistan at October 5, 2009 12:15 PM

There was no more sad and bereft street in Brooklyn than Smith Street. Many shopfronts were vacant and the few in business were so paultry and depressing. The upheaval of the re-paving and re-lighting (yes, with bishop crooks) did in many of the old shops that were struggling to stay open , but then, when the project was completed, almost overnight, the street came to life with all kinds of new restaurants and businesses. It was a remarkable transformation. Night and day.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 5, 2009 12:19 PM

I was sorry to see Sur close. I had some amazing meals there. But last time I ate there, my friends and I were the only ones in the restaurant, and my friends had the same experience the last time they'd eaten there. Great Argentine beef.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 12:22 PM

Pete, I know you and I have sparred over the neighborhood in the past (LOL), but my recollection of Smith Street is the same as Minard's.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at October 5, 2009 12:24 PM

Two comments -- This may be the first article of this welcome to the neighborhood ilk in at least 15 years to not mention the mohawk steelworker and skyscraper worker connection.

I am pretty sure that Patois opened up in early 1997 (maybe even in December 1996?), and Sur opened up in the autumn of 1997. I think a few more higher end restaurants on Smith opened between late 1998 and 2000, and then it has been a steady stream since then. I don't recall when Saul or Grocery opened.

Posted by: Boerumresident at October 5, 2009 12:35 PM

Both the streetbed and the sidewalks were a mess, you could barely walk or ride due to the broken and heaved pavement. The street and sidewalk reconstruction was the right project at the right time. I think it was a around 1995-96 -does anyone remember precisely?

Posted by: Minard Lafever at October 5, 2009 12:40 PM

santa- I initially lived on Remsen off Clinton, then moved to Schermerhorn. 96 was still boarded up with 24 hour guard dogs, the porn theater was still going strong (I know this from outside observation only :-) and Pandora seemed to be the most popular bookstore in the nab. At night it was creepy just walking down the street. I couldn't get over how big a difference it was by moving just a few blocks.

Posted by: bxgrl2 at October 5, 2009 12:41 PM

This is such a great thread to read.

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 1:02 PM

Just wanted to say that Atlantic Avenue was a destination for many people from all boroughs back in the 80s due to the Middle Eastern restaurants and shops (mosly down at the western end) and the antiques row. I think these two clusters really anchored the area and attracted people throughout the tough times.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at October 5, 2009 1:13 PM

It sure was a destination yesterday too, Carol Gardens!!

What a day for the Atlantic Antic...good times!

Posted by: 11217 at October 5, 2009 1:38 PM

"The children of the summer's end
Gathered on the [macadamed street]"

Posted by: infinitejester at October 5, 2009 1:52 PM

oh please, Minard. THere are plenty of streets in Brooklyn today that are far less appealing to you Heights type people than Smith St was then. Frankly, I don't think Smith is that attractive right now. It just has night life that didn't exist that has now...and seems that majority of people on Brownstoner that is their biggest priority is restaurants. Tell me where the vacant stores were?
I can see that maybe a couple blocks from perhaps Butler to
Degraw didn't have much retail - maybe because not the foot traffic from the subway stations. But that really not the BoerumHill part....north of Butler seemed to cater more to Hispanic population and south of Degraw not so much.
There is still one storefront on Smith between Butler/Baltic that has sat empty for decades now...I don't know why-probably they landlord doesnt want to rent it out.
But back then I even had a place on Smith St. to get replacement glass for windows. And Ziads wasn't only place you go to get a sandwich to go.
"you could barely walk or ride due to the broken and heaved pavement" - yes buckling from the old vaults or whatever they were - but again Minard sounding like drama person or NYTimes writer to say could barely walk....you were much younger then.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 2:00 PM

I loved Atlantic ave. even way back when. Loads of great antiques/junque places. found great stuff- now those that are left are too expensive. there's always something exciting about a place that has that "undiscovered" feel- I mean you wish it would be better for the businesses, but then it is just nice having the secret source thing going on too.

Posted by: bxgrl2 at October 5, 2009 2:07 PM

While it is true that part of PS 261's district is in Boerum Hill, the sad truth is that most of Boerum Hill is zoned for PS 38 (the Board of Ed gave it an 'A', so maybe it just LOOKS bad). For parents who are paying attention and are able to make choices, living in Boerum Hill means finding an out-of-zone or private alternative. A variance into PS 261 isn't guaranteed, and for a while 261 was refusing to give variances to families zoned for PS 38.

Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at October 5, 2009 2:12 PM

oh, you had to bring up the porn theater on Court st. I do miss that place. And Queens had the pizza by the slice.
And the rotisserie chicken and hot food from that place on corner of State.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 2:25 PM

My fiance and I are considering moving to Cobble Hill/Boerum Hill or one of the surrounding areas. Other Besides Street Easy or Craigs List, are there any other good resources to check out about available rentals?

Posted by: brklynorbust at October 5, 2009 3:57 PM

Are you willing to pay a broker's fee?

Posted by: Carol Gardens at October 5, 2009 4:06 PM

check corcoran.com
brooklynbridgerealty.com
or other realtors in neighborhood - their websites.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 4:07 PM

The Theater on Court street: "Cinart" they had a sign that said "couples welcome"..

Growing up in Cobble Hill, I remember when I was allowed to leave the block by myself, my mother would say Court street was the line, no going to Smith st. When I was in high school in the 80's I bought weed off dealers on the corner of Bergen and Smith, and in an apartment above what is now Sample. Smith street sure has changed. For better or worse? sometimes it's relative.

Posted by: lifer at October 5, 2009 4:56 PM

Too bad Cinart closed before you were old enuf to bring a date.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 5, 2009 5:00 PM

that it did, but I did make it into Club Wildfire a couple times, on rollerskates, we'd zoom in through the swinging doors scream something cheeky, then turn around and scream out of there, good times

Posted by: lifer at October 5, 2009 6:51 PM

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October 5, 2009

Boerum Hill: In a Nutshell

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