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October 28, 2009

The Edge Is Making a List, Checking It Twice

the-edge-williamsburg-1009.jpg
The Edge may still be holding out on cutting prices, but the massive Williamsburg development is finding other, more creative, ways to try to attract buyers, according to Curbed. Condo hunters are now invited to use the Edge's handy 70-item checklist of amenities and features to compare the waterfront project with other competing developments. Sustainably harvested floors and kitchen cabs? Check. Plunge pool with waterfall? Check. Bosch Cooktop and wall oven? Bien sur. (See the entire list here.) What's more, in a show of bravado, The Edge is offering potential buyers a free car service ride to the competition as long as they visit The Edge first.
Williamsburg's Edge Does a Bit of Trash Talking [Curbed]
Development Watch: The Edge [Brownstoner]
The Edge Tops Out [Brownstoner] GMAP
The Edge Sells Burg's Most Expensive Condo [Brownstoner]
Development Watch: The Edge [Brownstoner]
Development Watch: The Edge [Brownstoner]




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Comments

place is over the top for cool, and will be a good long term bet, but there probably are simply not enough buyers out there. i have no idea how far that can cut prices while still being profitable. if prices were to drop substantially to something that equals an incredibly good deal think that demand for the property is there.

and, if anyone buys there on this board, we are now best buddies, and I'm coming over to use the pool.

Posted by: wine lover at October 28, 2009 11:06 AM

Wine lover - they haven't cut prices. They need to update their checklist.

Reasl estate bubble peak pricing - check

Posted by: dittoburg at October 28, 2009 11:10 AM

Doesn't this place consist of 1000 apartments?

Yeah, they better cut prices alright.
200K for a studio
300K for a 1 bedroom
400K for a 2 bedroom

The place looks right out of Tampa, Florida.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 11:10 AM

Stop the yakking and start the price whacking.

Until then I'm over the Edge.

Posted by: DitmasSnark at October 28, 2009 11:15 AM

Wine Love... really? Nothing screams luxury living like living in an industrial waste land!

Posted by: tybur6 at October 28, 2009 11:15 AM

this one is Toll Brothers, right? They are actually in reasonable financial shape given the circumstances, and you can expect them to act differently than the small guys. I don't know how they financed this building, but probably the debt-holder is a big investor (big pension, insurance co or bank) and is wearing the pants now and has made the call to ride this out. It could take a long time to reverse that, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at October 28, 2009 11:16 AM

Joe - its the one next door thats Toll brothers (northside towers?) - they cut their prices and have been selling. The edge developer is famous for procaliming he wasn't going to cut prices.

Posted by: dittoburg at October 28, 2009 11:28 AM

this guy is delusional if he thinks this will sell any place near the asking prices. The more they try to wait this out the more underwater they will be. I think there is still one more year of price declines for nyc. By then this building will be priced around 40 percent too high.

Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at October 28, 2009 11:37 AM

I think its a nice building, but $800psf is crackers.

Posted by: dittoburg at October 28, 2009 11:42 AM

Snark - HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - totally!

Posted by: gemini10 at October 28, 2009 11:44 AM

the location is pretty solid - next to Toll and the state park and across the street from nice buildings - all the fun stuff on N. 6th, walk up N.7th to subway. there's no industrial anything around there. tons of restaurants, shops, bars on wythe and berry bet. N.4th and N.10th. berry and wythe around there are extremely residential. hoping that the "industrial wasteland" comment was satirical.

without being ridiculous, think for a moment what this places offers. it will have a completely done pier/park area right on the river. tons of apartments will have never to be ruined manhattan views. the northside piers pier is FANTASTIC. it goes way way out into the water and features this giant bird like sculpture that goes down to become a giant bench.

Also, go to the Edge site and see what the pool area looks like. crap. cool!

i am saying that if they do slash prices, the demand for this place will be high. it's very very nice. and waterfront in NYC has a long term value that cannot be undone by snarkiness on brownstoner.

Posted by: wine lover at October 28, 2009 11:56 AM

Ugly? Check.

(This is Levine Builders, a local developer, not Toll Brothers.)

Posted by: WBer at October 28, 2009 11:57 AM

This building is growing on me, as is 111 Kent (still don't like northside piers)

I wish i had one of those cribs with the balconies facing the park for the Girl Talk and Grizzly Bear free concerts - that would of been sweet.

The smaller units will move at 600psf - and they'll rent the bigger ones.

Sorry 11217 - as much as i'd love to see your firesale prices, not happening.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 12:01 PM

OK, not toll bros -- then I take back my comments. It'll end up at the bottom of the east river with the rest of them. they're seriously smoking crack.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at October 28, 2009 12:03 PM

"tons of apartments will have never to be ruined manhattan views"

They're already ruined - its opposite Stuy Town...

Posted by: dittoburg at October 28, 2009 12:03 PM


The comment about the industrial wasteland was not 'satirical' -- it was an error on my part (and Brownstoner)

The Google Map link goes to 150 Kent, which is between N 13th and N 14th.... next to the Bushwick Inlet and those lovely chemical tanks.... and all industrial/commercial.

North 6th is nicer. But it still is Williamsburg :-)

Posted by: tybur6 at October 28, 2009 12:06 PM

This is like watching a school play dramatizing the Kubler-Ross model of the 5 stages of grief. Very slow, inexpert and overly didactic but ultimately educational.
Act 1: Denial

Posted by: Maly at October 28, 2009 12:14 PM

Wine lover's comments always make me laugh.

This could have no windows and be covered in dried elephant dung, but since it's in Williamsburg it MUST BE amazing!

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 12:21 PM

11217 - didn't u hear - elephant dung is all the rage this season! they are selling t-shirts dipped in elephant dung at Oak for 80 bucks as we speak

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 12:24 PM

DH, it wouldn't even surprise me.

Don't get me wrong, pride of one's neighborhood is admirable but even I think there are crap things about Park Slope, and feel like I know how to be objective when reviewing things about it.

Wine lover is totally and completely incapable of saying anything but 100% positive things about each and every thing that passes this blog if it pertains to Williamsburg. We could have a post about a crime spree on Bedford and somehow he would spin it to be a good thing for the neighborhood.

It's just silly.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 12:35 PM

DH, in general, I would agree with you on those prices 11217 quoted. but to say no transactions clear at those prices, don't be too confident. true distressed short sales could yield a 1 bdrm at 300k. take the scenario where initial buyers need to have 50%+ down, all-cash buyers, etc, you'll see some crazy prices. right now, many sellers hoping they'll get some of the fat wall st bonus coming their way. when it doesn't come, one can imagine what prices come to mkt

Posted by: more4less at October 28, 2009 12:43 PM

True M4L - but they'll def go rental before they do a firesale. Apparently there's no shortage of people willing to rent 2,600 1 bedrooms on the northside (from my recent experiences)

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 12:51 PM

DH, What's going on with your apartment search? Found anything yet??

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 12:55 PM

"DH, What's going on with your apartment search? Found anything yet??"

Temp living situation for a few months - waiting to move into a 3 bedroom with a couple of friends in one of my favorite buildings in Brooklyn.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 1:00 PM

Oh cool DH. I take it you'll be staying in Williamsburg then?

I have a feeling I know what might be one of your favorite buildings, but maybe I'm totally wrong...

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 1:06 PM

I hate to ask. But what's a Plunge Pool?

Posted by: Tara in the Slope at October 28, 2009 1:11 PM

quote:
Wine lover's comments always make me laugh.
This could have no windows and be covered in dried elephant dung, but since it's in Williamsburg it MUST BE amazing!

oh the hypocrisy. youre an even WORSE example of a neighborhood cheerleader!!!

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 28, 2009 1:13 PM

The prices will definitely drop on these but I think the price declines in the city and nation as a whole have from 5 to 10 more years to drop. At that point fire sales start to make sense :)

But I feel bad for those who have already bought there. The sales office has been open for about a year now, correct? I'd be curious to see how many of these (the tower) are in contract.

They come at a very bad time. There's like 7 other condo buildings just on Kent alone and set to open a few months from now and they are not far from "Edge." That factored along with the coming dollar crisis (and possible war? i.e. Iran, oil crisis, ect.) will create the perfect storm that will result in the bankruptcies of all these greedy developers :) Hang on tight! It’s going to be a bumpy ride!!

Posted by: nes718 at October 28, 2009 1:23 PM

> But what's a Plunge Pool?

I'm guessing - based on no information whatsoever - that it's a nice way to say "too small to actually swim in."

Posted by: DitmasSnark at October 28, 2009 1:29 PM

According to Wikipedia: Plunge Pool

"A plunge pool, also known as a waterfall lake, is a pool, lake, or pond that is small in diameter, but deep. Plunge pools are formed under the force of a vertical displacement of water, for example a waterfall or rapids. The swirling water, sometimes carrying rocks within it, erodes the riverbed into a basin, often featuring irregular and rough sides. Plunge pools can remain after the waterfall has ceased to exist or the stream has been diverted.

The term can also refer to a small deep swimming pool used to cool off."


I guess because of the Cool Off in the Condo market you Plunge in the Pool.

Posted by: Tara in the Slope at October 28, 2009 1:34 PM

the plunge pool is for cleaning off after you've (unsuccessfully) tried to chase your dp/equity flushing down the toilet?

cool spot / building for many but has to be at the right price.

Posted by: antidope at October 28, 2009 1:41 PM

rob - your comments make me laugh too! without resorting to the adjectives used by others to describe your comments, i will say you appear to live in a very negative head space.

at least I am a proponent for growth and expansion and change into more housing for our city. i am a dreamer and an optimist and very happy. you sound miserable. Maybe you're not miserable - i don't know. You criticize me, but what are you fighting for? Enlighten me, and I might fight for it too. Many on this board are also optimists and have a love for their nabes and their real estate purchases like DIBBS and MM. Even if their point of view is different from mine, i can understand where they are coming from. you just are barking out stuff for your own entertainment. which is fine, but not helpful in describing our changing urban landscape.

BTW - i didn't just wander around one sunday and buy the first condo I saw. you have to understand that i have an investment here in WB which i made after shopping constantly for a place for TWO YEARS! And, prior to buying my CH brownstone, i looked at 57 townhouses/brownstones in CH and CG. I looked all over for a year and half before buying in Park Slope. I have an informed point of view about purchasing real estate in gentrified Brooklyn that comes from seeing hundreds and hundreds of properties in many different areas. i have purchased wisely each time i bought (Cobble Hill in 1997, off of Fifth Ave on a named street in Park Slope in 2000). my record for predicting great investments in neighborhoods, is right on. i sold my PS slope place for 110% more than I paid for it.

when i say something about brooklyn real estate i know something about what i'm talking about. what you or anybody else thinks doesn't matter to me. i am not about to start doubting my opinions because a guy who rents says something dismissive.

And, I think that know way more about the WB condo market than most who have never even seen any of these developments! People comment off of pictures and mess up the geography of WB completely even. yes, there are ugly, poorly made places, but when people bust on the Edge or 80 Met or 125 N. 10th, then they are exposing themselves to being clueless. They are looking at modern architecture and dismissing it without really knowing anything about these buildings except that they aren't pre-war. it's ridiculous. people on this board probably think that the Mill is a better development because it has an old shell - it's not! all 3 developments i just listed are way better.


rob, i would totally have a laugh and a drink with you though - did you say you smoked? i do.

finally (for now) anyone who says that they wouldn't be happy swimming in a pool overlooking a park like setting, watching boats going down the river with the manhattan skyline in the back is lying. the views in WB are killer! sorry, you can't get that from the parlour floor of your brownstone "dripping in details."


Posted by: wine lover at October 28, 2009 2:10 PM

One problem with all that, wine lover...YOU'RE RACIST!

You've made racist comments on here before so no matter what you think about the state of the Williamsburg condo market, I can't stand racists. Your comments hold no merit, in my opinion.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 2:19 PM

> One problem with all that, wine lover...YOU'RE RACIST!

We know he hates brownstones.

How does he feel about white brick?

Posted by: DitmasSnark at October 28, 2009 2:34 PM

I think Rob was talking about someone else, no? But since you're defending the Edge - it may be a superior "development", but it is still ugly. The architect just doesn't know when to say no to a sample board, so he accepted all of them. Sometimes less is less, but here, more is more, which is too much.

Northside Piers is a far nicer development, architecturally (less is more). So is 80 Met, the Mill, 268 Wythe and a host of others. There is a lot of good product in this area of Williamsburg, but to me the Edge is the ugliest of the lot (125 North 10th doesn't do much for me either).

Posted by: WBer at October 28, 2009 2:41 PM

Everyone's opinion on ugliest building in 11211?

my vote = warehouse 11

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 2:57 PM

I think the Fisher building on Roebling between 7th and 8th is worse. But pretty much any Kaufman project is worse than both those together.

Posted by: WBer at October 28, 2009 3:06 PM

"you can't get that from the parlour floor of your brownstone "dripping in details."

No- but then again, who spends their entire life with their nose pressed up against the window, looking at the views? You live in a house, not in the view.

Posted by: bxgrl at October 28, 2009 3:06 PM

I have no interest in an apartment with a view.

None whatsoever.

Charm is of utmost important to me with regard to my home.

Plus the dirty glass would make me crazy.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 3:10 PM

"No- but then again, who spends their entire life with their nose pressed up against the window, looking at the views? You live in a house, not in the view."

If you're a dude - and pick up some girl with choppy bangs at union pool and bring her here - you'll prolly get laid.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 3:18 PM

"If you're a dude - and pick up some girl with choppy bangs at union pool and bring her here - you'll prolly get laid."

I doubt it's the view of the outside that choppy bang girl is interested in, but the view of the dude.

Posted by: Tara in the Slope at October 28, 2009 3:26 PM

quote:
"If you're a dude - and pick up some girl with choppy bangs at union pool and bring her here - you'll prolly get laid."

gross. i hope this condo development has a free STD clinic as one of it's gazillion wonderful amenities!

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at October 28, 2009 3:50 PM

haha rob - so true!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at October 28, 2009 3:53 PM

"The Edge Is Making a List"

Of what? Unsold apartments?

***Bill Thompson for Mayor (TUESDAY!!!)***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 28, 2009 3:59 PM

Rob, the clinics are on 4th Avenue! But maybe they'll put disinfectant in the plunge pool.

Posted by: WBer at October 28, 2009 4:21 PM

plunge pool = pool of buyers at ask

***Bill Thompson for Mayor (TUESDAY!!!)***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 28, 2009 4:28 PM

I shopped the Edge recently & checked out a model. The place is pretty nice- the kitchens are beautiful and have pantries, which makes a huge difference. The floors are nicer than most and the master bathrooms have a good warm feel to them. Like all new development, storage space is inadequate, but I bet you could get a storage space in the basement (which they're selling) for nothing! I'm skeptical about the "green" thing, does it really make a difference? Will it save any money?

One of the things about the WBurg waterfront is that the taxes are absurdly low, like $5 a month per apartment for 25 years, which is basically forever. This is true for Edge and Northside Piers. Big news: Taxes are going up in this city. If you're locked in for 25 years, that's got to be a good thing.

How much will people really use the pool, basketball court, "plunge pool (?)", virtual golf, massage rooms, gyms, petting zoo, lunar landing module, on-call sushi chef, etc., I'm not sure. It could be one big party, or just another bunch of stuff to pay for out of common charges. I'm betting on the party, but who knows?

Posted by: probopop at October 28, 2009 4:55 PM

"One of the things about the WBurg waterfront is that the taxes are absurdly low, like $5 a month per apartment for 25 years, which is basically forever."


***
Its important to note that tax abatements/exemptions are applied for by the developer and granted by the city to offer incentives to developers for building and marketing a new property. Usually, a 10-Year Tax Abatement is granted meaning that the actual property taxes that were assessed to the building and its individual units will get relief for the first 10 years of occupancy. The tax relief is the greatest right when the building is ready for occupancy and then increases every 2 years (20% every 2 years) until the 10 years is up, and at which time the property taxes will have hit their maturity.

***
A: Let me be absolutely clear! The 421A Tax Exemption which is granted to developers by the city as an incentive to build and develop neighborhoods, is great for the developer's sales team as they ask top dollar for new units with temporarily low monthly expenses and a DUPE TO THE BUYER WHO INTENDS ON SELLING AFTER THE ABATEMENT EXPIRES!

I'm sure I will get a lot of harsh words for this post from either some colleagues or sales managers, or developers, but I can't help it! This is how I feel and think its important to at least play devil's advocate to anyone considering paying over $1,300 a square foot for a new development whose asking price can be this high because the monthly expenses are temporarily low due to the 421 Tax Exemption.

Don't get me wrong, new developments are a great product and perfect for those who can afford them. But for those seeking an investment play, its hard to rationalize the price per square foot + higher closing costs on some of these developments considering they will get more expensive to carry every two years for the next 10 or 15 years.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 5:32 PM

Generally true, 11217, but when they passed the new zoning for Greenpoit/Wmsbg they gave incentives for building affordable housing, including bigger buildings and longer 421a. That's why Edge and Northside have 25 year 421a benefits; they both built the requisite affordable apartments. The taxes start increasing in 20 years and go up to full taxes by the 25th year. So if I buy an apartment at either of those projects, I can sell in 10 years and the person who buys from me still has another 10 years of full benefits, then 5 more years of partial benefits. That ought to have a positive effect on my resale, don't you think?

Posted by: probopop at October 28, 2009 10:21 PM

I don't think it has too much of an affect when prices are so high. It's maintenance costs more than taxes that most people pay attention to, and they aren't cheap at The Edge, nor are they going down...especially if they can't fill the building up and the few people who buy have to cover the costs of keeping up the building and all those amenities.

I think The Edge is a terrible building, and it's certainly no bargain at the asinine prices they are asking.

The neighborhood is saturated with thousands of overpriced, crappy condos.

Posted by: 11217 at October 28, 2009 11:06 PM

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