« Inside Third & Bond: Week 103 House of the Day: 171 State Street »
October 1, 2009
Co-op of the Day: 30 Ocean Parkway, #1F
Here's a neat one. This three bedroom pad in the art deco building at 30 Ocean Parkway is actually like its own little house. The 1,700-square-foot apartment has its own entrance. Given what good shape the prewar apartment is in and its proximity to Prospect Park, we'd say this is looking like a pretty attractive buy at the asking price of $549,000. Do you agree?
30 Ocean Parkway, #1F [brooklyn real/NYT] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
This is a SWEET pad!
Very nice, and just goes to show that there are family-sized apartments out there available for more reasonable prices...
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 12:47 PM
honestly I think this place is great and huge and was all excited about it until I saw the maintenace of $1500 a month
does that include daily maid and nightly turn down services?
um no thanks!
Posted by: gemini10 at October 1, 2009 12:47 PM
fuck co ops in the ass.
Posted by: ftgreenepark at October 1, 2009 12:49 PM
That is an incredible looking pad at a toweringly reasonable price. I know several people who will interested in this.
Posted by: wasder at October 1, 2009 12:50 PM
Maintenance also gives me pause Gemini, now that you mention it.
Posted by: wasder at October 1, 2009 12:50 PM
The monthly maintenance would be a deal breaker for. That's very high for the area. Great place but with fees like that it make be stuff to sell.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 12:51 PM
The maintenance alone is as much as my rent... and, as we know, maintenance goes up up up over time!
Posted by: tybur6 at October 1, 2009 12:52 PM
1500 maintenance on 1700 sf is not out of line.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 12:52 PM
I mean your monthly payments would prob be like $4K a month
sure, some peeps can afford that - I just can't!
but still - it's a great place
Posted by: gemini10 at October 1, 2009 12:53 PM
"and, as we know, maintenance goes up up up over time!"
I've lived in my place 3 years so far and my maintenance hasn't gone up a penny.
How much has your rent increased during that time period...?
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 12:53 PM
It also has it's own private entrance....nice touch.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 12:54 PM
11217....that's a fair in other areas of Brooklyn but $1500 on Ocean Ave is high.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 12:57 PM
this was in the NYT "on the market in NYC" slidshow thing.
looks awesome.
Posted by: Santa at October 1, 2009 12:57 PM
11217 --- I don't care about 3 years. Don't be ridiculous. I'm talking about the long term. Folks always argue that buying is better because your effective monthly payment goes down over time (because of inflation and wage increases) -- this maintenance cost will go UP UP UP over time. No, maybe not in the next 2 or 3 years.... sheesh.
Posted by: tybur6 at October 1, 2009 1:00 PM
Tyburg:
As a member of a co-op, I know when the last time our maintenance was increased.
It was in 1997.
Rents go up nearly every year.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:03 PM
Well, I have a family member who life's on Ocean Ave a few blocks away from this location and I have to say that the monthly fees have increased sufficiently over the last 5 years. It's to the point now that the monthly fee is more then the mortgage. It's approaching 1250 and the building and area just don't warrent fees like that. Take it for what it's worth.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:08 PM
Can I ask - what do maintenace fees usually cover?
and why are they usually costing more than a mortgage
that just seems soooooo wrong to me!
Posted by: gemini10 at October 1, 2009 1:11 PM
11217 - well, I'm sure everyone would LOVE to be a member of your co-op. But I think you're an exception to the rule. Almost everyone I know that owns in a co-op has seen BOTH increased monthly maintenance charges and assessments.
by the way, my rent hasn't gone up in the last 2 years. So there.
Posted by: tybur6 at October 1, 2009 1:11 PM
This is in Windsor Terrace, yes...?
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:12 PM
Well the point of the co-op is to collectively run the building.
So if your maintenance is going up dramatically, you (the group of you) are doing something wrong.
Heating oil has gone up some, so that plays a factor, but if you have a group of people who are smart with money, running a co-op with little maintenance increases should not be that difficult.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:14 PM
border of it.
Posted by: Santa at October 1, 2009 1:15 PM
Yes actually it is Windsor Terrace.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:15 PM
Aren't your taxes covered in the monthly fee as well?
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:17 PM
Aren't your taxes covered in the monthly fee as well?
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:17 PM
clearly this lovely 3 bedroom will be boughten (yes i said boughten) by some rich dad to go go to three artsy fartsy daughters who will all share and each just have to pay 500 dollars a month for the maintence. their dream of city living has finally happened1
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 1:18 PM
We're still talking about this happy family needing to come up with $45,000 at least per year just to cover the basic expenses of this "reasonably priced" apartment.
Posted by: tybur6 at October 1, 2009 1:22 PM
corcoran sold same or super similar layout on the 6th flr of this bldg (maybe 5 months ago or so) for $460k or so. very good condition too. don't know if that was a regular or distressed price. compared to that, this looks super expensive.
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 1:28 PM
it's absurd, all of nyc is to buy. it's not even feasable for couples with decent jobs to be able to purchase, let alone poor singles, its like things are priced for people who are polyamourous threesome and foursome type relationships where at least 3 have to be doctors or lawyers just to live in even the grodiest sections of brooklyn. sad times indeed. tyburg, i think we need to force a revolution.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 1:28 PM
Tybur6, 11217's maintenance experience is not that big of the exception. It has more to do with small well-runned coops. for bigger coops, we've been seeming some big increases the last few yrs. in my 7 yrs at my place, maintenance went up ~50%
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 1:30 PM
M4L: I know it might seem minor, but I'd think there would be a rather moderate premium for the separate entrance. That's a big deal for a family moving into a co-op to have the benefits of house-life...don't ya think...?
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:30 PM
11217, I have a child and would like another. Speaking for myself, I dont find that to be a plus. not like there's dedicated doorman there to open & close door just for the unit (ie no added security). even if it's a place, the ground flr is a negative that's big enough to offset the place. some will like the ground flr & separate entrance but I think general mkt would prefer the higher flr (especially in an elevator bldg) and the 100k or more cheaper price
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 1:36 PM
I don't think this apt is an example of ridiculous Brooklyn pricing. Per square foot this is starting to match other cities price points. I have a friend who just bought in the Valley in LA (Burbank) who paid more than this for a house with fewer square feet. So at a certain point you have to give in to the notion that you are not going to find a nice place in a good neighborhood for much less than the per square foot price here. Just saying...
Posted by: wasder at October 1, 2009 1:39 PM
I saw this the other day in a total happenstance way, and thought, wow, Brownstoner should highlight this place. I was very impressed.
Posted by: infinitejester at October 1, 2009 1:40 PM
It's hard to say if the maintenance is high without knowing the breakdown. Taxes are included, and any underlying mortgage on the coop is also tax-deductible. And somebody essentially gets a small house without most of the cost and hassles of house maintenance. Could be great for the right person.
Posted by: tinarina at October 1, 2009 1:41 PM
quote:
I have a child and would like another
LOL i love how people talk about having another kid as if they are about to eat another jellybean
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 1:42 PM
First of all, the building is on Ocean PKWY and not Ocean Avenue. Secondly, I agree with M4L 100% on separate entrance issue and added security, high floor with elevator reasoning. Thirdly, great building, great price, great apartment, high maintenance for the area. I live a few blocks away and we got hit with maintenance increases lately as well because of the NYC tax increase, etc. and this is still high for the area and non-doorman building, even for 1700 Sq. Feet. Reasonable maintenance for a pad like this in the area should be around 1000-1100. That's comps.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 1:43 PM
THX Kensingtonian...my point exactly.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:46 PM
THX Kensingtonian...my point exactly.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 1:46 PM
are there lot of rich kids running around windsor terrace??
ha. ooooohhh pleeeeease daddy me and my two spoiled, artsy, super hip siblings desperately need an apartment, and it has to be in the awesomest neighborhood where i can be close to all my other rich trust fund friends! windsor terrace! buy me an apartment in windsor terrace! please please please!
Posted by: TD at October 1, 2009 1:47 PM
"I have a friend who just bought in the Valley in LA (Burbank) who paid more than this for a house with fewer square feet."
Similarly, I know a couple who just bought a 1600 sf loft in the Pearl District in Portland, Oregon (also 3 bedroom, 2 baths) for 1.1 million.
I think some people here really don't "get" that the other really livable and nice cities around the country are also quite expensive. Either that, or they just don't think Brooklyn is all that great.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:47 PM
"I have a friend who just bought in the Valley in LA (Burbank) who paid more than this for a house with fewer square feet."
Similarly, I know a couple who just bought a 1600 sf loft in the Pearl District in Portland, Oregon (also 3 bedroom, 2 baths) for 1.1 million.
I think some people here really don't "get" that the other really livable and nice cities around the country are also quite expensive. Either that, or they just don't think Brooklyn is all that great.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 1:47 PM
Wasder, writing as someone who owned a house in LA, I'm sure your friend has a yard, fruit trees, a garage and a decent nearby school all with comparable property taxes. Just saying...
Posted by: ecoux at October 1, 2009 1:52 PM
quote:
I have a child and would like another
LOL i love how people talk about having another kid as if they are about to eat another jellybean
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 1:42 PM
what can I say, I've got potent stuff. if not for contraceptives, there would be a small army of small mouths asking to be fed
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 1:52 PM
I saw this place last Sunday for their first open house. It has a nice layout and sizable rooms. The apartment does need new bathrooms and kitchen, but it has a lot of potential. The only real drag is that two of the bedrooms are on Ocean Parkway, and this is a first floor apartment. It's quite loud.
Posted by: cobble hill girl at October 1, 2009 1:53 PM
quote:
are there lot of rich kids running around windsor terrace??
ha. ooooohhh pleeeeease daddy me and my two spoiled, artsy, super hip siblings desperately need an apartment, and it has to be in the awesomest neighborhood where i can be close to all my other rich trust fund friends! windsor terrace! buy me an apartment in windsor terrace! please please please!
uh, i was merely referencing those two spoiled bratty sisters whos dad bought them a park slope 2 bedroom apartment that was featured in the nytimes recently. very vomit inducing story.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 1:55 PM
About ten years ago, my daughter would have LOVED living that close to the stables. She would've been over there visiting the horses every day.
This is a very nice building, and I like the location. It's not too too many blocks to either Key Food or FoodTown, and that's usually enough for me, but this area isn't heavy on the typical Brownstoner-approved commercial amenities. Plus it's on the sucky F train.
Posted by: Sparafucile at October 1, 2009 1:56 PM
Are banks still super tight with their loan standards whereby they'll give the potential buyer a super hellish time when they pull the comps and see that a higher flr unit sold a few months ago for 100k less? or do they let it slide if your income is big enough to comfortably cover the monthlies?
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 1:58 PM
"I'm sure your friend has a yard, fruit trees, a garage and a decent nearby school all with comparable property taxes. Just saying..."
Fair enough, he definitely has a yard and some fruit trees. Don't know about the garage. However about the schools I wouldn't want to bet that the average elementary school in that part of the Valley was better than the one in Windsor Terrace. Also, his house is not nearly as nice on the interior. But my point was not to compare apples with oranges so much as to say that this place is an example of how the Brooklyn real estate market is not so different to many other popular cities in price point.
Posted by: wasder at October 1, 2009 2:01 PM
I would buy this but for the maintenance charge.
Ground floor doesn't put me off but I'd want a discount to a higher floor since that's where the market is at. It's actually a bonus for me as I'm steps away from being outside for a cigarette.
Posted by: the chicken at October 1, 2009 2:04 PM
On the maintenance question:
I'd actually be a little concerned 11217 and others if your maintenance doesn't go up SOME. Costs have been increasing. Taxes are going up, and coops are taxed more heavily than single-family dwellings. If maintenance stays stable for a LONG time, it COULD indicate a well-run building where costs have been kept down, but it could also indicate a building with a lot of deferred maintenance issues. There have been some recent news stories about buildings where shareholder's have found out that that is the case.
And one must remember that maintenance includes: heat, water and sewage, common area electric, taxes, mortgage, staff.
Posted by: Minmin at October 1, 2009 2:19 PM
Maintenance fees do not include your mortgage payments.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 2:23 PM
Coop maintenance fees are going up because of real estate assessments. Many blgds in clinton hill have seen their taxes skyrocket. In my building it's our biggest expense.
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 2:23 PM
Building mortgage, not personal mortgage. Sorry for the misunderstanding. (Not all buildings have mortgages, of course.)
Real estate assessments are a bear, indeed!
Actually, since the building in question doesn't have a doorman, I do think the maintenance is a little high.
Posted by: Minmin at October 1, 2009 2:28 PM
I believe 5F (also 3BR/2Bath) was sold for a bit less than this recently, and was in nicer condition. I cannot believe the private entrance has more value than being in a higher floor - particularly when the private entrance is from your bedroom (it kind of weirds me out to have a door to the street into your bedroom).
As to the building, a prvious post from last year:
"The reason I would never buy here, however, is that the building is flanked by the Prospect Expressway. While not terribly noisy, a layer of black soot would build up every 2 weeks or so on all of my windowsills (and my windows didn't even FACE the expressway). It made me a bit uncomfortable to think of what I might have been breathing in on a daily basis."
Posted by: saminthehood at October 1, 2009 2:41 PM
I get a layer of black soot on my windowsills every couple weeks and I live on a leafy side street in Park Slope no where near a highway.
I think it's called New York City air.
Posted by: 11217 at October 1, 2009 2:44 PM
Get out the private entrance is in the bedroom. WOW.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 2:45 PM
my windowsills have never been cleaned by me in over 7 yrs and they're clean of black soot.
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 2:48 PM
"Get out the private entrance is in the bedroom. WOW.
Posted by: A CrownHeightsLady at October 1, 2009 2:45 PM"
Ching! Ching! Ching! My final box is ticked. Who do I make the cheque out to?
Posted by: the chicken at October 1, 2009 2:49 PM
external door in bedrm is convenient for what? oh yeah, comes in handy if spouse comes home at unexpected time and you're cheating with someone else between the sheets - ie sneak the "evidence" out that door
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 2:50 PM
chicken, the 2 chinaman think a like.
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 2:51 PM
"But my point was not to compare apples with oranges so much as to say that this place is an example of how the Brooklyn real estate market is not so different to many other popular cities in price point."
You may be right. In fact, the similarities in the markets is an argument for those who think the NY market has a ways to go before bottoming. Is it reasonable to assume NY can escape the 40% plus plunge in home prices LA has suffered through (according to Case/Shiller) since the peak? I don't know. There are arguments to be made on both sides. But an argument which points to other ridiculously priced markets-from an affordability standpoint-as a justification for this ridiculously priced market, is not compelling to me. Though I appreciate your attempt to bring some perspective to the constant wingeing on this site. :)
Posted by: ecoux at October 1, 2009 3:04 PM
EW! ground floor entrance leads to BEDROOM!? WELCOME BEDBUGS!
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 3:04 PM
DeLepp, same for my building. NYC slapped us with 33% tax increase this year over last. Freaking robbing us blind I tell ya!!!!
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 3:05 PM
kens, I thought it was a typo when I first saw it and then realized next year will be even higher becasue teh rise gets phased in over a 5 year period. Our maintenance increase is all about taxes. Put together all this paperwork to make the appeal and they re-adjusted down 20%.
Still going to be our biggest expense by 100%.
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 3:11 PM
oh stop. nyc has some of the lowest property taxes in the country. homeowners complaining about their taxes get no sympathy from me.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at October 1, 2009 3:13 PM
here's that corco listing I was referencing:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1526803
it sold pretty quickly so good chance it sold close or at asking price of 475k. btw, this one lists sq ft at 1500 vs. the 1700 per this COTD.
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 3:14 PM
rob, that is for 1-3 families. condos/coops whole other story, especially after the abatements are gone.
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 3:15 PM
rob, that is for 1-3 families. condos/coops whole other story, especially after the abatements are gone.
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 3:15 PM
DeLepp, we hire a law firm every year who goes to court and fights the assessment. The good thing is that they don't charge anything if they don't win and if they do, its a percentage. They do this for a lot of buildings in NYC (pretty much all they do). They told us that this year will be almost impossible to win the appeal and adjustment cause Bloomy needs money for the city. So we're fucked basically and had to increase maintenance by 7 percent this year to make up for this.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 3:17 PM
kens, what % of yout maintenance goes to taxes?
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 3:21 PM
delepp, super well paid union maintenance staff is biggest killer for my coop
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 3:25 PM
Quick cal about 25%. Yours?
Another thing that kills us is that we are a union building so pay to super and porter is really costly considering benefits, insurance and union dues.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 3:26 PM
Kens, my coops' maintenance crew are overstaffed too. too often seeing them look too comfy doing little to nothing
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 3:32 PM
M4L, ours work hard but still sucks that we have to pay for all the union stuff as well as salaries that match union workers. We would have it a lot cheaper other way around. Our super and porter are great though.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 3:35 PM
Our coop's operating budget is 23% R/E taxes, 25% mortgage, 15% labor and 14% energy -- not much room to maneuver. And no matter what you say, people cannot understand why it isn't decreasing!
Posted by: BH76 at October 1, 2009 3:37 PM
BH76 Welcome to my world. Some loonies in our co-op think we (board) are pocketing the money no matter what numbers you show them!
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 4:02 PM
Kens, that's a nice ride you have. Not convinced your salary can support it. hehehe
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 4:16 PM
M4L it was a nice ride brand new! It's almost 10 years old now. Worth crap lol.
Plus they only elected my ass past November and I had that ride for around 5 years now.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 4:20 PM
Kens, you're being court marshalled communist style so zip your lips as the accusations are 100% 1-way. defense attorney - what's that?
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 4:24 PM
we're about 30% real estate taxes, 20% mtg, 15% heat.
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 4:29 PM
DeLepp, I remember your co-op being a lot smaller in size correct? I can see you having a bit different ratios than I have. My co-op is 90 apartments.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 4:32 PM
we got 12 apts, much smaller
Posted by: DeLepp at October 1, 2009 4:34 PM
Kens, funny thing with these cost stuff is it appears the more units, the LESS cost efficient. my coop is much bigger than yours hence the much higher maintenance. wtf happened to cost efficiency as one gains critical mass?
Posted by: more4less at October 1, 2009 4:37 PM
basically NYC is screwing us all one way or another with these tax increases.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at October 1, 2009 4:38 PM
I've thought about that: it seems that buildings that are up to say 8-12 can keep maintenance down (I think it's the ratio of tax per unit, and the lower operating costs because they have less square footage, staff, etc); larger buildings 80-150 do seem more expensive; though the largest ones get a break because of larger economies of scale. This is anecdotal. Does anyone have evidence?
In my old coop the breakdown was:
Payroll 25%, Energy 13%, Insurance 4%, Taxes 30%, Financial 15%
Posted by: Minmin at October 1, 2009 4:49 PM
On the "overstaffing" issue. If the buildings were cooped under non-eviction plans, it's likely that they had a fair number of tenants who stayed on as renters. Presumably that number has gone down (way down...) over the years, but they are guaranteed any and all of the services that a building had when it was cooped.
Posted by: Minmin at October 1, 2009 4:51 PM
Minmin...Yes. In coops, size does matter. We have about 100 units so are required to have live-in super and 2 FT porters. The building systems are complex, more expensive (elevators??). And we do not get the economies of scale that we would if we had 50% more units. The cheaper per share maintenance is either for very small or very large coops. But then there are the other issues -- we do not have a problem if a few owners are behind... and we are really more of a community that if we were larger.
Posted by: BH76 at October 1, 2009 5:11 PM
Thanks. That was exactly the sense that I had. Kind of a shame, really.
Posted by: Minmin at October 1, 2009 5:21 PM
wouldn't you get tax deductions on both maintenance and your mortgage? for those looking for this type of pre-war apartment, this seems pretty good. there are, of course, potential maintenance additions in this type of large older buildings, just do as much research as you can.
i don't really see the first floor thing as a negative at all. how is this different from a house? just get an alarm system. i live in a place with several 1st floor duplex apts, and all but one are owned by people with kids. it's an advantage i think because it's easy to get in and out.
also, this area has the potential for major growth in the long run and is generally not overpriced.
Posted by: wine lover at October 1, 2009 9:45 PM
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