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October 13, 2009

1,500 Rental Units for DoBro

downtown-rentals-1009.jpg
It's hardly news for anyone who's been paying attention, but yesterday Crain's took the time to point out that three new rental developments in Downtown Brooklyn are all hitting the market at roughly the same time: Avalon Fort Greene (left, 650 units), 80 Dekalb (center, 365 units) and The Brooklyner (right, 490 units); studios at all three places are expected to start at about $1,700 a month. (Free rent concessions, though, bring the cost down close to $1,300, which starts to look pretty attractive.) While one of the developers involves admits that she we have preferred a little less competition at the start, we're not so sure the confluence of launches is such a bad thing. (The article also dangles the possibilities of the Forte and be@schermerhorn getting repositioned as rentals.) The biggest barrier to people deciding to rent in these new buildings in Downtown Brooklyn is the lack of a critical residential mass. With all three coming to market at the same time it's a potential game-changer for the area. Now if one of these places could just get a gourmet market or decent restaurant to sign on, they'd be all set.
Get Ready, Brooklyn: Flood of Luxe Rentals [Crain's]




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Does anyone else think this really points up the oversupply of luxury coop/condos buildings? Even before the crash, I noticed more construction was being built as rental, and now coops and condos are going rental. And still wanting. Not to mention, for most of us in real life, 1700$ for a studio is still way too much money to be affordable. Studios are for singles unless you can find one that is large enough for 2 (been there, done that- no fun).

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 9:40 AM

DoBro- Yawn...give us a break on the cliches please.

Posted by: bobbyj at October 13, 2009 9:59 AM

bobbyj- but this is brownstoner. We're nothing if not cliched :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 10:03 AM

At least renting is relatively low commitment. Don't like it and you can move on in a year (or do a runner and forfeit your deposit). Buy and you're in there for good unless you can offload it.

Posted by: the chicken at October 13, 2009 10:12 AM

Brooklyn Fare is a great gourmet/grocery store next to the Hoyt A/C station.

Posted by: boerumite at October 13, 2009 10:17 AM

dumbo seems to becoming more and more like tribeca. lots of high end fancy condo / loft buildings with rich yuppie family oriented amenities and not much else.

Posted by: CG_ups at October 13, 2009 10:17 AM

Oversupply=more affordability....

The real rent for these buildings is currently 1300mo for a studio (and I bet you could do better).....


If they dont rent at these prices, expect even lower....anyone who wants affordable housing in NY should be jumping up and down with excitement.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 10:22 AM

Oversupply=more affordability....

The real rent for these buildings is currently 1300mo for a studio (and I bet you could do better).....


If they dont rent at these prices, expect even lower....anyone who wants affordable housing in NY should be jumping up and down with excitement.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 10:22 AM

we are, fsrg!

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 10:24 AM

Can we not call it DoBro? Please Mr. B? Pretty please? Keep whack abbreviations out of Brooklyn.

Posted by: havelc at October 13, 2009 10:43 AM

Just curious how this just unleashed glut of 'luxury' rentals will affect condo prices. Is there a parallel between falling rent prices and condo prices?

Posted by: loty at October 13, 2009 10:49 AM

I'm still waiting for SoSlo = south slope to catch on.

Posted by: abrooklynmile at October 13, 2009 11:02 AM

Just took a quick look at the Avalon website. Sticker prices look OK but some of the apartments are tiny - lots of 13-14ft living rooms.

Posted by: etson at October 13, 2009 11:07 AM

my tenant just asked me for a huge rent decrease based on the pricing at 277 Gold Street. These buildings are going to kill me. He wants a 25 percent decrease.

Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at October 13, 2009 11:13 AM

bbb-if you're a small landlord, I doubt your expenses are going down. You have my sympathies- your tenant is asking too much. Maybe you can negotiate something with him.

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 11:20 AM


"my tenant just asked me for a huge rent decrease based on the pricing at 277 Gold Street. These buildings are going to kill me. He wants a 25 percent decrease."

You can always say, "no."

Posted by: East New York at October 13, 2009 11:24 AM

if i say no he is moving and I am not sure if I will be able to fill it up with all these buildings being close enough to compete. This is going t be a tough couple of years for sure

Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at October 13, 2009 11:29 AM

dumbo seems to becoming more and more like tribeca. lots of high end fancy condo / loft buildings with rich yuppie family oriented amenities and not much else.

Posted by: CG_ups at October 13, 2009 10:17 AM

I agree. Didn't a while back a few posters list all the upcoming new condos going rental, something like 1,500? I believe it was a Williamsburg-centric list but still.

Posted by: infinitejester at October 13, 2009 11:30 AM

bbb- is he a good tenant or a pain in the a$$? Maybe he threw out the 25% knowing he would have to negotiate.

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 11:32 AM

I'm going to have to agree DoBro is a NoGo.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at October 13, 2009 11:36 AM

there are going to be people that do not want to live in highrise, cookie-cutter bldg and those that do.
Check around yourself, craiglist, realtors websites, etc to see how reasonable your rent is.
Unless you really were getting beyond top rent when this tenant moved in, that kind of decrease sounds out of line.
Don't think is difficult to rent if you charge no fee and are competitive. Anyone who wants to negotiate that much sounds like a royal pain and I wouldn't want them as a tenant.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 13, 2009 12:03 PM

its a floor thru in Fort G and the current rent is 2100. He will stay for 1600. When he sent me the pricing for the highrises his argument made sense somewhat. Some of those places are getting cheap

Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at October 13, 2009 12:12 PM

"$1,300 [studio!?], which starts to look pretty attractive"

Supply will make that figure look like Mick Jagger, very quickly.

"Is there a parallel between falling rent prices and condo prices?"

Uh huh. It's called 10 X [annual rent]. Rent go down >>> condo go down.

DuhBro for the idiots that pay these rents. Assinine.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 12:17 PM

bbb, if you like the tenant, determine what's your bottom price then negotiate - ie it never hurts to try which is what he's doing in asking for 25%

Posted by: more4less at October 13, 2009 12:17 PM

Methinks bitter bubble buyer is playing ya'll.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 12:18 PM

"Methinks bitter bubble buyer is playing ya'll."

I was just going to say the same thing BHO.

Posted by: wasder at October 13, 2009 12:33 PM

bbb- say it ain't so! :(

Posted by: bxgrl at October 13, 2009 12:36 PM

regardless, that could be true to some landlord nearby these bldgs.

too greedy to think a 3 bdrm unit could be rented for 2600?

Posted by: more4less at October 13, 2009 12:39 PM

Let's see, renovated 1 bed on "Franklin" (feel free to insert your street of choice) for $1500 or brand new "cookie cutter" with in unit w/d, a building full of amenities, and a one stop ride to the city.

Disadvantage, Franklin.

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at October 13, 2009 12:44 PM

Uh oh, wasder. It's been 30 mins and bbb hasn't refuted my claim!

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 12:49 PM

Idiot, LilBitOfLuck.

$1500 on St James, fool, and headed west (effect of falling rents)! 1 bed in cookie cutter $2000 plus (if you sign today) in DuhBro. That $500, plus, more than pays for pick up/drop off laundry and a gym membership at Crunch (a REAL gym). Quiet hood, too. Two more stops - so what! St James and west thereof beats being trapped in an all-inclusive resort for far more per month.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 1:05 PM

St. James and a user account on daily heights? LOL, we'll see. Speaking of idiots, Bill Thompson will be speaking tonight - should be a barrel

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at October 13, 2009 1:10 PM

``Disadvantage, Franklin.''

Exactly! I'm on Bedford & Fulton and my rent is pretty close to the new buildings and better neighborhood. It's a no brainer. I'm out... Hello downtown BK! :D

Posted by: nes718 at October 13, 2009 1:18 PM

BHO - you couldnt be more right

If and When Bill Thompson becomes mayor, $1300 for a studio will be ridiculous - it should only be about 2yrs before we are back at 1991 price levels - figure a studio in the $800 range!

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 1:45 PM

I'm voting Thompson then - those prices & rents would be super attractive

Posted by: more4less at October 13, 2009 1:54 PM

M4L,

What fsrg forgot to mention was that under a Bill Thompson regime, the 1991 prices also come with 1991 crime levels.

Posted by: Brokedeveloper at October 13, 2009 1:57 PM

Even with those 2 - 3 months off of rent that would be a huge wake-up call after your lease is up when you're rent shoots up about $300 a month! If you couldn't afford the 1,700 you'd be forced to move out within a year.

Posted by: NYGuy7 at October 13, 2009 2:03 PM

If they are indeed supposed to appeal to the middle class at these lower rates, and it really is still such a terrible recession, then a good supermarket would be more appealing than either a "gourmet" store or a "decent" restaurant. That way people can cook their own decent gourmet food in their nice new kitchens for a fraction of the cost.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at October 13, 2009 2:04 PM

No didnt forget, thought it was obvious! And not just crime 1991 dropout rates, and 1991 level services, and 1991 City Park maintenance and 1991 level homelessness, and 1991 level riots.....etc, etc, etc

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 2:07 PM

"1991 prices also come with 1991 crime levels"

Already in the cards. Bloomberg can do nothing about that (even with his fortune). This is an economic depression. You will soon see.

Thompson was comptroller. He knows a little about finance. Uphill battle though. Debate starts at 7 on NY1 or radio. We'll discuss tomorrow.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 2:08 PM

NYGuy7 - have no fear - in 1yr the incentives will be even greater...the supply will be huge for well more than a year.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 2:09 PM

BHO - you know more about RE than crime....

Unemployment has been climbing for well over 18mo in NYC, the Banks imploded over a year ago...and crime is WAY down this year (11%) [Murder - a VERY reliable statistic is down 12%, from a record level last year]

Crime is not and has not been correlated to economics cycles - but in a way you are correct, because if and when Bill Thompson gets elected and he (inevitably) reverses the policies that brought us to this pre-1960's level of crime, We KNOW that Bill Thompson will cite "the economy" as the reason....and many of the sheep in this city will buy it.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 2:16 PM

Thompson knows ZERO about finance - he was simply the political head of the office...all he did was hire fund managers who contributed to his campaign coffers - the NYC Pension fund has significantly underperformed similar sized funds nationwide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/nyregion/19pension.html

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 2:20 PM

typical nonsense scare fear tactics that spinmeisters use, fsrq.
Vote for someone new and all this terrible stuff will happen. Bloomberg's big $$$ pay for all this nonsense spin.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 13, 2009 2:28 PM

Yeah right Pete - real fear mongering....the NYC I describe is EXACTLY the NYC we had the last time a lifetime member of the democratic political machine was in charge of the city. Thompson is a hack. You may not have been here (or be old enough to remember) but the scenario I paint isnt some fantasy - its a relative recent fact and a reality that other poorly run large cities (see Chicago) are still in the grips of....Despite what you hear from the radical right - Government does matter - and there is ZERO indication that Thompson is capable of running ours.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 2:40 PM

how exactly would I be playing people? Just got back and read some stupid posts.

Posted by: bitter_bubble_buyer at October 13, 2009 2:47 PM

M4L,

What fsrg forgot to mention was that under a Bill Thompson regime, the 1991 prices also come with 1991 crime levels.

Posted by: Brokedeveloper at October 13, 2009 1:57 PM

for 70% off brownstones, I'll take my chances. right now, much of NYC is window-shopping only and standing on this side of the shop window is not necessarily rosey. forget about the USD losing value againts other currencies, most of us regular folks have seen much bigger drop in buying power within NYC the last few yrs. nice house in a nice hood has to $1M or more - I refuse to accept the reprogramming and request a reset to the old default settings where home ownership <> big mortgage anxieties.

Posted by: more4less at October 13, 2009 2:47 PM

"Crime is not and has not been correlated to economics cycles"

Nevermind cycles. Focus on unemployment. Unemployment is directly proportional to street crime. Yes it is. Enter Detroit. Brooklyn will be "taking it" at 1991 levels or worse.

"the NYC Pension fund has significantly underperformed similar sized funds nationwide"

Gimme a number.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 2:48 PM

Big city Democrats (esp NYC and Chicago) give a bad name to all Democrats. If I had grown up in NYC I think I would have ended up a Republican.

Posted by: Brokedeveloper at October 13, 2009 2:48 PM

fsrq - I am quite old enough to remember but not so old that I don't remember, thank you.
you are still spin making. Democratic mayor = crime. sorry.
You are fearmongering. There were many reasons for increases in crime in this city and country and many reasons for decreases. Increases and decreases did not happen over night.

Posted by: Petebklyn at October 13, 2009 3:28 PM

BHO - I can focus on whatever you like - but despite the fact that unemployment in NYC (10.3%) is higher than at anytime since 1993 - crime is at 40-50 years low (and falling) - I also note that crime fell throughout the last downturn (2001-2003) and in the first few years of the 90s (when unemployment was rising)

Re The pension fund - I'll quote the NY Times article linked above:

Over the last seven years, four of the five city pension funds performed below the median for similar funds around the country. In fact, more than two-thirds of big public pension funds did better than the city’s largest fund, the New York City Employees’ Retirement System, according to a widely used financial yardstick compiled by Wilshire Associates, an investment advisory firm.

But Mr. Thompson has benefited from his association with the pension system, collecting more than $500,000 in campaign contributions from its growing roster of money managers since he first entered the 2001 race for comptroller. In some cases, the executives gave to Mr. Thompson just months before the pension funds hired them to manage tens of millions of dollars, according to interviews and public records.

Bill Thompson is a hack!

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 3:34 PM

No Pete - I did not say Democratic Mayor = high crime

- I AM saying a machine politican, with no real accomplishment, no demonstrated political courage and tied to all the same old corrupt forces as past failed mayors WILL equal high crime.

Why wouldnt it? NYC crime reduction has defined all the statisticians that tried to tie crime to demographics, economics, etc....Government and policies DO MATTER and NYC crime reduction (which exceeded everywhere else) is proof.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 3:40 PM

It's bizarre to ignore the effects of unemployment on crime stats. If crime does soar under a Thompson administration, it would reflect the bursting of our latest economic bubble more than his skills as a public servant. A sensible critique wouldn't blame him for what is essentially a national problem escalated by our local dependence on the financial sector.

I do agree with Fsrg that the city's pension funds have done worse than others nationally.

Someone let us know if the Toren starts offering 1 beds at $1700/month. I'd consider being yuppie scum or whatever at that price.

Posted by: Citizen Greene at October 13, 2009 3:47 PM

Bad argument about crime, fsrq. Crime lags as does it's downward trend when employment rebounds. The 2001-2003 "recession" was not. It was rescued by this massive worldwide credit giveaway and housing bubble. Your NY Times quote gives me no number. Performed worse by how much? Most pensions nationwide were slammed.

Bizarre indeed, CG. Just like they'll want to blame this depression on Obama although some of it is deserved because he's kicking the can down the road. Again, how much worse have New York's pensions suffered compared to the national average? -75% loss vs -50% loss. Number please.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 4:11 PM

Exactly why would the city become significantly less desireable under Thompson than Bloomberg, fsrq?

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 4:14 PM

Its not "bizzare" -since the relationship between unemployment and crime is weak (some for property crimes - almost none for violent crime) - and causation has not been established - additionally, NYC has seen ZERO correlation (and btw - unemployment did rise here 01-03 - credit bubble or not)
I am sure you can use google as well as anyone but:

http://bk.ly/MY

and if you read the article I linked you would have read:

Through June, the median annual return for large public pension funds for the past seven years was 4.5 percent, according to the Wilshire Associates data. For that same period, four of the five city pension funds had returns below the median. Although the difference was less than one percentage point, that amounts to tens of millions of dollars over a long period of time. The fifth and smallest fund, the Board of Education Retirement System, was at the median.

Under Mr. Thompson’s predecessor, Alan G. Hevesi, the city’s pension funds outperformed their peers. For the seven-year period that ended in June 2001, the year Mr. Hevesi left office, the median annual return for large public pension funds was 12.16 percent, according to Wilshire. For that period, four of the city’s five pension funds delivered returns above the median, records show.

Posted by: fsrg at October 13, 2009 4:33 PM

I'll grant you that the relationship isn't a simple correlation but both common sense and social science support the view that street crime rises when legitimate employment's in short supply. I can't view the link you posted on my phone unfortunately. I'm pretty sure a google search would turn up studies backing both our points of view (though I'm confident that work on large metropolitan areas would support BHO's suggestion). It's clear that you've done some work in this area, so please explain which of Bloomberg (or Rudy's?) policies/initiatives were responsible for the big drop in crime in the late '90s. Copstat? Broken-windows enforcement? If so, why do you think Thompson would kill these 'efficient' projects?

'01 - '03 unemployment was nowhere in the range of 10.3%, as I recall. BHO has also explained how different that technical recession was from the widespread downturn we're feeling (and will continue to feel).

Posted by: Citizen Greene at October 13, 2009 5:09 PM

"the difference was less than one percentage point"

Case closed.

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 5:14 PM

Can you please answer me @ 4:14, fsrq?

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 5:16 PM

"Ahead of the debate tonight between the two mayoral candidates, William Thompson received the backing of a law enforcement union which has backed Mayor Michael Bloomberg in the past two elections." - NY1

Uh oh!

***Bill Thompson for Mayor***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at October 13, 2009 5:35 PM

these buildings seem to compete for a wall street renter i suppose against the financial district. it's a non neighborhood although somewhat walking to BH or FG or dumbo. they will lower prices to compete. seems like a sad existence to live there.

Posted by: wine lover at October 13, 2009 11:10 PM

Mr. B is right -- the first decent restaurant or cafe to open downtown is going to open the floodgates to the area changing.

Posted by: bklynite at October 15, 2009 10:45 AM

Good let them get the pizzerias that charge 5 dollars for a slice of pizza and 3 dollars for a cup of coffee.I don't need junk food at hip prices

Posted by: hannible at October 15, 2009 4:41 PM

You would be STUPID to rent at Avalon now.

Last week they were offering 200 off the rent PER MONTH if you signed a 18 month lease PLUS with 3 months RENT FREE and an extra 500 bucks if you submitted a application the day you came in. Effectively making your rent 1700 for a 1 bed. A price that was right where it should be.

I was told there are 30 units that closed on that price when they were looking for 10. They in turn rose the price back up thinking they undershot the market. My guess is that they will go back due to the upcoming competition.

They have done away with all those incentives and if you do rent at Avalon know that your neighbor is paying at least 500 less than you a month. Check weekly for deal changes and wait for another good one.

Posted by: brooklynknight at October 20, 2009 1:35 PM

Over Priced Rentals with no super market or shopping near by at all + you are neighbors with all the crappy Projects next door. WOW!? Now I call that a Great Hood Guys offering great incentives. Where is everyone going to shop etc.?
Check out the hood~More prey for the projects.

Posted by: tjj at October 26, 2009 7:15 PM

Over Priced Rentals with no super market or shopping near by at all + you are neighbors with all the crappy Projects next door. WOW!? Now I call that a Great Hood Guys offering great incentives. Where is everyone going to shop etc.?
Check out the hood~More prey for the projects.

Posted by: tjj at October 26, 2009 7:15 PM

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