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September 10, 2009

Ourousoff Weighs In On Barclay's Center Design

The results, unveiled on Wednesday, are somewhat more promising. Some of Mr. Gehry’s original ideas, like opening views from the sidewalk into the arena, have been restored. Mr. Ratner has reduced the size of the structure, moving team offices to another site. And Shop has wrapped it in an appealing rust-colored steel skin, which will make it less harsh on the eye. But it still falls short of the high architectural standards set by the design the city was originally promised. And too many questions remain unanswered about the overall plan — in particular, when and whether Mr. Ratner’s company, Forest City Ratner, will ever build the surrounding buildings, and, assuming it does, who will design them. Without them the cohesion of the original plan falls apart. - New York Times, 9/10/09

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When I saw the rendering from the air, it looked like a Venus flytrap...

Posted by: denton at September 10, 2009 11:23 AM

Better design than the original proposal. Also, not having a "master plan" for the eventual buildings around this arena is a good thing. Do people really like the "cohesion" and uniformity battery park city? No, it would be better this way.

Serendipity anyone?

Posted by: CookieCutterBrownstone at September 10, 2009 11:31 AM

I'm sorry, but from the beginning he's annoyed me by having no sense of the neighborhood and blindly championing the project just because it was gehry. I don't think he even lives in brooklyn, not that that's a prerequisite, but it definitely made him completely tone deaf about the impact on the neighborhood.

Posted by: miss priss at September 10, 2009 11:32 AM

This arena is arguably the most important project for BK since R. Moses blocked the Dodgers. Basketball just part - rock and roll, religious events, NCAA, Caribbean festival, the Pope....We must have this arena. Perfect location.
Will be very tough on cars, great for public transit, but huge huge huge for BK.

Posted by: BK realestate veteran at September 10, 2009 11:37 AM

This is a big improvement from the prior scheme, which was truly uninspriring. I hope they actually build it in our lifetime. That intersection is so empty and ugly; a great work of architecture like this could really make a big difference. Also as a transit hub it is the perfect location for an arena. People can get there without a car. I'm all for it. I think I like the SHOP design even better than Gehry's.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 10, 2009 11:38 AM

Not having a master plan may not be bad if we had a lot of developers in the mix but but the fact is that FCR controls the site and whatever he builds (look no further than the Mall, Metrotech, the Corut St theater, etc.), will look like an expensive project or suburban office park. And the "public" spaces are only open to the public under FCR conditions -- not true public spaces at all.

Posted by: BH76 at September 10, 2009 11:38 AM

The statements of it looking like a grill, or spaceship are stupid. When will you be in a helicopter and fly into Brooklyn at that angle to see the stadium in that way. The straight on and underneath the awning views are what locals and visitors will see.

Posted by: ReMiXxd at September 10, 2009 11:41 AM

I like the Shop design better than Gehry's as well. This would have to be a mass transit accessed space only, which would involve truly beefing up the capacity of the Atlantic/Pacific hub.

Posted by: wasder at September 10, 2009 11:53 AM

BK real estate veteran,

There will be a lot of people driving to the arena, that's why the AY plan provides for 1,100 parking places. The interesction of Flatbush + 4th & 3rd avenues is already gridlocked at rush hour.

Posted by: Boerum Hill at September 10, 2009 12:21 PM

Yeah--if even a thousand car loads drive there it will be a complete mess. I wish there was a way to ensure that this was completely a mass transit situation but of course that is not feasible or possible. Why someone would want to drive there is beyond me but I guess if fans are coming from Jersey or the Island its necessary. Perhaps there could be off site shuttle areas for these fans. As Boerum Hill says, even on regular days this intersection is already unmanageable. Too many roads coming together at too many crazy angles. Perhaps some urban engineering could rationalize traffic flow here.

Posted by: wasder at September 10, 2009 12:31 PM

I prefer this to the Gehry design as well.

Anyone notice how the exterior invokes something similar to the skin of a basketball?

And is the same color as brownstone?

Nice touch.

Posted by: 11217 at September 10, 2009 12:34 PM

I think it's nifty. Should be pretty nice if it's ever built. Hopefully the building has a good bike rack.

Posted by: tybur6 at September 10, 2009 12:39 PM

By the way, is it still the Barclay Center? They haven't reneged on their naming contract? That's a good sign.

Posted by: tybur6 at September 10, 2009 12:40 PM

Providing free off site parking and transportation - say in Jamaica, which is a 10 minute shot on the LIRR - would be a simple way to reduce congestion. But even though it is about as convenient to Mass Transit as can be, it will be a traffic nightmare. Get ready for tons of new parking facilities downtown and in the non-landmarked parts of Prospect Heights - oh, wait - they'll just park on the rest of the development site for the next several years. I guess that will be fun.

I've always thought that the worst thing about AY (other than the rapacious abuse of public funds and processes and the willfully pollyanna-ish financing scheme (sure we'll build Gehry apartment buildings for $300 a foot!)) was the master plan and proposed density. Ouroussoff still defends it in print, but really, it was destined to be an enclave and a wedge between FG and PH. (We are really missing that Carlton Avenue Bridge right about now.)

I like SHoP - they are a firm at the top of their game, local, and a savvy choice for Ratner for the project, but I'm not sure that this is an improvement over the Gehry design for the Arena. However, if it presages a more modest development with active recreational areas that is better connected to FG and PH, then it is a good thing.

Posted by: architect66 at September 10, 2009 12:59 PM

I think its fine that arena got split off from the rest as arcitect66 says above the plan as a whole is a big divide between two great neighborhoods. A nicely designed arena with a restored Carlton AVe bridge and a few choice retail options would fit the bill without bankrupting local government.

Posted by: wasder at September 10, 2009 1:31 PM

In general I'm bothered by the density, lack of public space and subsidied involved in the project.

But I have to say I really like this design - more than the Gehry version even.

People who are forecasting gloom and doom don't know what they're talking about. They're probably the same people who were saying that the IKEA was going to lead to massive traffic jams in Red Hook. In general, people don't understand how traffic really works and like to get all dramatic with nightmare scenarios the rarely materialize. 1,100 parking spaces is really not that many. Remember that the arena will seat almost 20,000 fans. Even if thos ecars all carry 2 passengers, that's still about 10% of all people coming to the arena.

I agree that the intersection is currently a nightmare and think it would be terrific if there could be some sort of reallignemnt to rationalize traffic flow there. I just don't really see how this arena is really going to make it worse than it already is. All you'll have to do is drive there once to realize that next time you should leave the car home and take mass transit. Even people coming from Jersey can take a PATH into lower manhattan and then hop on the train.

Posted by: bkre at September 10, 2009 1:47 PM

The new design is an improvement over the previous one but Gehry's arena design was better. More interesting and striking. His designs for the rest of the complex was awful. Be that as it may, I think it was always going to be too problematic to actually build.

Traffic and mass transit-wise, the whole thing is a nightmare. I don't think they can up the capacity of the hub- wasn't there a report last year that the whole system operates at max capacity in terms of trains running?

Posted by: bxgrl at September 10, 2009 1:48 PM

I hate rust buildings. I think they always look like someone couldn't afford paint or sealer. They bleed and look miserable. I have yet to see ONE of them that I like. I also think the rendering looks like a closed cell phone with a bottle cap opener. Probably represents the sports bars that will open on Atlantic and Flatbush like near Madison Square Garden...anyone think that will be an enticing neighborhood.

You really need to give DDDB credit. They have done exactly what they intended to do which has been successful so far. You need to admire success when they clearly were the underdog fighting the Mayor, multiple Governors and the powers that be.

Posted by: smeyer418 at September 10, 2009 2:07 PM

The concerns about traffic are in my opinion overblown. Of course there will be traffic at game time - just like ANY metropolitan arena location! Madison Square Garden seems to do just fine, with fewer public transportation links, in a more heavily congested area.

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2009 2:08 PM

ENY--good point. I would love to see the Nets rocking downtown Brooklyn if they can get the transit hub right.

Posted by: wasder at September 10, 2009 2:39 PM

I love it. I thought the original Gehry design was too kooky, hated the soulless feel of the first Ellerbe design, but this feels contemporary and iconic, and looks like it will integrate well into the neighborhood, such as it is.

I live in the area, and you can't tell me this won't be a major upgrade to the eyesore that's there now. I would love to take my family to world-class games and events there.

Kudos to Ratner for listening to criticism and pulling out a solid design at the 11th hour.

Posted by: Recidivist at September 10, 2009 3:16 PM

I have to agree with smeyer418 - since when is "rust" an appealing color?

Posted by: hermanjoshua at September 10, 2009 4:02 PM

Updated, 3:04 p.m. | The proposed basketball arena that has long been the centerpiece of the contentious Atlantic Yards development near Downtown Brooklyn would result in a net loss to the city of nearly $40 million over 30 years, according to a new report prepared by the city’s Independent Budget Office.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/report-finds-net-loss-to-city-from-atlantic-yards-arena/?hp

Posted by: BH76 at September 10, 2009 4:08 PM

someone pointed out that the hole has been there for over 70 yrs. For the record and just to reiterate.. we the people of PH do not mind the hole.

Maybe the rust color is for a basket ball look?

Posted by: jack slade at September 10, 2009 4:11 PM

i, a person of PH, do mind the hole. you do not represent me or all of PH, jack slade.

smeyer - what exactly do you think a few sports bars is going to do to the ambience of flatbush and atlantic? have you been to 4th avenue at atlantic? bars, trashy delis, electronics stores. seen what's on flatbush currently? empty storefronts, bad pizza, outpatient treatment services. as long as they handle their own trash and have enough restrooms, i think even sports bars would be an upgrade (or, at least, not a downgrade).

Posted by: i disagree at September 10, 2009 4:40 PM

"we the people of PH do not mind the hole."

Well I certainly do mind it. I'm sick of looking at it. In fact I haven't liked it since I was a kid in the 1970s, OK?

And for the record I live within 1 mile of the arena (Crown Heights) and previously live at 521 Dean Street, adjacent to the site, from 1997 to 2001.

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2009 4:43 PM

smeyer418, the De Young Museum in San Francisco is a rust-colored building that's amazing, blends in with the environs (the GG park), and doesn't bleed - might be worth a visit just to check it out for architecture alone (the art collection is OK).

Posted by: bupe at September 10, 2009 5:17 PM

As someone who resides near the stadium site, I certainly hope the optimistic predictions about no traffic congestion are true. But I doubt it. Car people are married to their cars. Mass transit has stated publicly it has no plans to increase mass transit options around events. And the multiple types of events needed to finance this financial albatross will be mostly one-off events, like concerts and conventions. Drivers will learn -- after they spend hours stuck and honking their fool heads off on my residential street -- too late that they can't park conveniently.

The only way to really reduce the number of drivers in the immediate area of the stadium is to have substantial congestion pricing: $60 to drive anywhere near the arena on an event night should put people on a subway car.

Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at September 10, 2009 5:37 PM

"Car people are married to their cars."

Like jack slade, you are attempting to speak for a large group of diverse people. I own a car myself and it's no given I'd drive to the arena. When I visit Yankee Stadium, I sometimes drive but just as often take mass transit. As I mentioned previously, MSG, which has fewer transportation links than the AY site, and is located in a far more congested area, seems to do fine. The "congestion" issue is much ado about nothing.

Posted by: East New York at September 10, 2009 5:45 PM

1. The bars on 4th avenue aren't sports bars. They are mostly community bars a horse of a different color as far as bars go.
2. I'll stop by the De Young Museum when I am in SF. There is almost always an exception and maybe that is one of them...

Posted by: smeyer418 at September 10, 2009 6:06 PM

The traffic will suck regardless of how car owners behave. It already does. And it will chew up more of our streets. It will come up Flatbush, up Atlantic, across Washington and Vanderbilt Avenues, and will spill over onto parallel streets too.

We had all better hope that people start driving zero emission vehicles, or our beautiful downtown Brooklyn air will get even worse. (We are already ranked among the worst in the nation - see http://greenbrooklyn.com/air-up-there-american-lung-association-gives-kings-county-d-grade/2008/05/01/)

Posted by: architect66 at September 10, 2009 6:12 PM

I Disagree and ENY, what you didnt see the hole when you searched for that apt or home? It didnt appear overnight you know.

And ENY good for you. You grew up and moved away. Adjacent from the site pre bubble?? I would have moved too the area was not pleasant. And we know a mile away is big deal in Brooklyn. You're not right there.

My point is using "the hole" as an excuse to build is a bold face lie.
Ratner made it worse by tearing down whatever he could to piss off DDDB. Ward's Bakery is casualty of this war.

Posted by: jack slade at September 10, 2009 6:42 PM

BTW perforated cooper plates are not rust colored They may start out copper colored. They will age green just like the Statue of Liberty. and not bleed rust like iron/steel will.

Architects Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron and engineers Arup designed the newly rebuilt structure, which reopened on October 15, 2005. The current building is clad with perforated copper plates, which will change colors through exposure to the elements. A 144 ft. (44 m) observation tower allows visitors to see much of Golden Gate Park's Music Concourse (see below) and rises above the Park's treetops providing a view of the Golden Gate and Marin Headlands.

Posted by: smeyer418 at September 10, 2009 11:05 PM

People are thinking too narrowly about the potential traffic mess. Of course, the intersection itself will be a nightmare, as it often is right now. Anyone headed south in Brooklyn by car from downtown will be affected. Secondary roads, like Union Street and Vanderbilt Avenue, which take cars through Grand Army Plaza and south on Flatbush will be impassable, and this overflow will work its way through Prospect Heights and Park Slope, as well as along Atlatic Avenue and 4th Avenue. No real traffic study was ever done. Phil Habib, who did the pitiful traffic study which was part of the EIS, casts his eyes downward and shuffles his feet when asked if he thinks this was a meaningful and professional study.
Ourousoff's more interesting article on the same day took on Amanda ("the Chair") Burden more directly than anyone has done in print that I've seen. Bravo!

Posted by: probopop at September 11, 2009 2:28 PM

« Brooklyn Sales: Under a Million Inside Third & Bond: Week 100 »

September 10, 2009

Ourousoff Weighs In On Barclay's Center Design

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