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September 1, 2009
Last Week's Biggest Sales
1. CARROLL GARDENS $1,345,000
215 President Street GMAP (left)
This is a 3,320-sf, 3-family, according to Property Shark. Listing trail MIA. Entered into contract on 6/17/09; closed on 8/14/09; deed recorded on 8/25/09.
2. COBBLE HILL $1,300,000
314 Clinton Street, Unit D GMAP (right)
This is probably the same unit featured as a Co-op of the Day in April, a 1,712-sf floor-through asking $1.35 million. (Only confusion is the apartment number on that listing was 3, not D.) Assuming it is indeed the same unit, the reader appraisal widget came in at $1,042,993. Closed on 8/12/09; deed recorded on 8/24/09.
3. CARROLL GARDENS $1,200,000
82 Woodhull Street GMAP
This is a 3,600-sf, 4-family, according to Property Shark, which says it was asking $1,599,000. Entered into contract on 8/18/09; closed on 8/20/09; deed recorded on 8/27/09.
4. BOERUM HILL $1,130,000
223 Wyckoff Street GMAP
This townhouse was listed for $1,295,000 in February, according to StreetEasy. Entered into contract on 5/18/09; closed on 7/20/09; deed recorded on 8/28/09.
5. PROSPECT HEIGHTS $1,003,500
On Prospect Park, Unit 6L GMAP
This 2-bedroom unit in the Meier-designed condo was listed for $1.6 million, according to StreetEasy. Entered into contract on 7/9/09; closed on 8/14/09; deed recorded on 8/27/09.
Pics from Property Shark.
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Comments
If that Meier building sale is correct, then that sale is pretty interesting. If I remember correctly, the building has had a pretty good record of getting their ask so the whole "seller was nuts for asking that price" thing doesn't really apply. Maybe they are at the end and are more willing to deal to close out the project? Or maybe this is hard evidence of serious price deflation in the upscale condo space.
Posted by: Ledbury at September 1, 2009 11:47 AM
I think the most interesting sale is the Wyckoff Street listing -- it moved fairly quickly IIRC. More importantly, I think it's a nice mark for the team not so bearish. It was a little house (16' wide) on a block somehwat further form the subways than other blocks and near those projects that people always note on this blog. Goes to show that a nicely kept house on a relatively pretty block still has interested buyers willing to pay.
(Also the 20' wide single family across the street went for over $1.5 million last month.)
Posted by: Boerumresident at September 1, 2009 11:56 AM
president st. seems good price compared to previous years.
considering/assuming estate condition(prior owner bought 1970's ) and size 16.5 x45 3 family 4 floors.
Could be proof of cheaper market (I would guess this size/condition/location in previous era would be $1.55)-
but also since no listing trail maybe could have gotten a bit more if marketed thru major realtors.
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 1, 2009 12:05 PM
OPP has definitely been "making deals" lately. the carroll gardens townhouses are interesting. who knows what condition they are in (over 30 years with same owners at both; timing of contract/closing on woodhull suggests possible issues) and the proximity to the BQE would be a negative (for us - we're not car (or car noise and car exhaust) people). but given that they are both in ps 58 zone on decent blocks and not too terribly far from at least one train, i have to say these sales are the first since we bought that make me even slightly jealous.
Posted by: i disagree at September 1, 2009 12:18 PM
Though 10% less accurate than comps, typical original asks count for something...
1. -20%...until proven innocent
2. -4%...born every minute
3. -25%...ouch! (ahead of Case-Shiller)
4. -13%...'every minute (Welcome to NYCHA)
5. -37%...medic!
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at September 1, 2009 12:59 PM
82 Woodhull has a dumpster and permits in front of it. It is a gut job. 215 President street is undergoing a renovation also.
Posted by: sebb at September 1, 2009 1:20 PM
bho logic is garbage in, garbage out.
pls explain why there is a 10% relationship between ask and comp. did you pull this out of your bho? is there some sort of law of averages on this one? did you find hat on wikipedia?
1. huh? oh i see. bc you say so. got it!
2. idiot buyers aka the market. strong sale.
3. not exactly a sought after nabe tucked into the armpit of the BQE/tunnel interchange. pls show me a better comp. 1.2 here seems strong. forget ask, it could've been a niece in iowa who set the ask.
4. see boerumresident comments. strong sale.
5. OPP is a terrible price for building but high in absolute terms for the nabe.
now add Satori strong sales and we see more idiots.
so the market really is full of idiots.
so so you need to revert to your other arguments.
give it time folks, 50% off will be here soon. eventually. in 2009 dollars. or something. really.
so so so i've covered for you and now you don't need to post again on this thread.
Posted by: antidope at September 1, 2009 1:24 PM
We saw the President St house a few months ago. It was actually in pretty nice shape (definitely not estate condition), with the lower duplex and one of the other 2 appartments rented at market rate, with all rents expiring or expired. The other apartment needed paint here and there, but looked like you could rent it out pretty much right away or live in for a while. Downside: not many details left, garage next door, facade painted over, old boiler. Don't know about the rest of the mechanics though. We couldn't afford it, but $1.345M sounds almost reasonable, esp. given the insane price level in Carroll Gardens...
Posted by: tobikun at September 1, 2009 1:25 PM
82 Woodhill is in fact a complete dump. Saw it a few months ago. Needed a complete gut and is right near the BQE on a noisy block, just near a BWQ off-ramp. The buyers must have been out of their minds to pay more than $800k...$900k for it.
Posted by: tobikun at September 1, 2009 1:28 PM
interesting Tokibun, what realtor did you see President st. from and what was asking price then?
How would you describe duplex- layout, age of kitch, bath, etc.?
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 1, 2009 1:47 PM
The price for Woodhull alarmed me, guess we know why.
Posted by: Lowhearts at September 1, 2009 1:53 PM
Petebklyn, it was listed with Vita Realty for $1.65M. Not sure if it ever showed up on a website. Lower duplex had kitchen and living room on the garden floor, which was another minus. I don't remember more details or the exact condition of the kitchens or baths (was 4 months ago when we saw it). They were all alright, but certainly not the latest and greatest.
Posted by: tobikun at September 1, 2009 1:58 PM
dope - Sellers typically price 10% off comps (above during boom and below during bust). If I'm wrong, what would you say the figure is? How far off do sellers USUALLY price their properties (serious - I want your input)? I don't put garbage in. So so I don't get garbage out.
Since Case-Shiller is down -20%, that's what I assume until confirmed. Yeah, a sale during THIS stage of the cycle is not strong if idiots are not had.
So so what?
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at September 1, 2009 2:08 PM
tobikun, how long have you been looking for a place? given what you say about the quality of president street, $1.65mm ask sounds like kind of a joke. when we were looking, at the "top of the market" as they say, places in the condition you describe generally were selling for around $1.4 - $1.5 - on the lower end for the narrower places and the closer to the BQE or the projects. this really doesn't seem like that much of a drop from those comps to me - $50k? $100k? - but i haven't looked that closely at the comps in this neighborhood so could be wrong.
Posted by: i disagree at September 1, 2009 2:18 PM
look there are very few commentators who think the market is strong these days. the point is that there are a lot of anecdotal data points that look, on the face, relatively strong. of course, there must be a lot of property that isn't moving...
as to my theory of your garbage...my view is that there is no correlation between ask and comp on any given property in nyc. brokers will suggest to owners a price, but in the end the broker will initiate a sales process at whatever price the owner requests. or lose the listing. and owners are all over the map. this was true during the boom decade and it is true today.
since that's the way of the market and i am quite certain the other posters with experience will confirm, then i would put the burden back on you. you make the claim that asks are somehow related to comps +/- 10%, but i challenge you to show us how you get there. do you have any data or is it your gut? not to devalue anyone's gut, but they're not exactly valuable as everyone seems to have one.
Posted by: antidope at September 1, 2009 2:31 PM
Carroll Gardens has remained pretty strong, compared to most other neighborhoods, it seems. It's starting to come down now, but is still pretty high (incl. rents) and has a long way to go before it's reasonably priced imho. My guess is that many people are moving to CG for the schools and the vibe. It seems a lot busier this year during the day than last year. Could also be because people lost their jobs or spend their vacation in the city to save money...
Posted by: tobikun at September 1, 2009 2:46 PM
"there is no correlation between ask and comp on any given property in nyc"
Pure garbage. There's definitely a correlation. But you might be right about my number, 10%. That figure was based on common recommendations for sellers to price 10% above comp (during the run-up) or 10% below comp (today during the freefall). But I checked the widgets in a few HOTD's and COTD's and found a spread up to 25%. The widget is a fair representation of what people would sign contracts for. Even brownstoner himself will comment on whether a price is reasonable or not and he often does within 10 to 20% (again, maybe my number is just off). So maybe my number should be adjusted to 15 to 20% between comps and asks. But there is a correlation. If you insist on listing too far outside that correlation (i.e. $2M for an average 4-fam in Bed Stuy), brokers wouldn't take your listing. Comps are better but asks are not completely irrelevant as many exaggerate.
Does everyone else disagree with me?
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at September 1, 2009 3:52 PM
precisely BHO! you’re learning. so let’s see. if we take your spread (still just a guess, btw) of up to 25%, then on any given piece of sales data we have to provide for some serious sloppage in the data. a $2 mio ask might have comped at an actual 25% off, or $1.5 mio. and if it sells for $1.35 mio, then the sales price is actually off peak comps by 10%. how is this a useful base from which to discuss where prices are vis-a-vis ask?
i don’t think there are many brokers who wouldn’t take that $2 mio listing by the way. they make their fee on the actual sales price, but so what? no one’s tracking who sells the most properties at the greatest percentage of original ask. though they/we should. that would be useful data in determining who/whether to use a broker.
Posted by: antidope at September 1, 2009 4:10 PM
That figure was based on common recommendations for sellers to price 10% above comp (during the run-up) or 10% below comp (today during the freefall). ----uh, somehow I think that statement is pure nonsense. Nobody besides you thinks we are in 'freefall' and I would bet real $$ that no realtor is suggesting that anyone list at 10% last sale.
10% above yes, because most buyers will insist it is bad market and want to negotiate.
In hot market some realtor were suggesting pricing below comp to start bidding war.
ALso - I keep asking for resale examples in relative new condo buildings for change in sale prices....and really haven't gotten any ....Want to offer a few examples up?
Ones I have posted have been relatively steady..few % points above or below.
Posted by: Petebklyn at September 1, 2009 4:38 PM
even resale data can be subject to improvements, but it is the best hope...
a few weeks ago, i posted about a strong resale in bloody wburg waterfront and the darksiders blew it off as either a) subsequently improved and/or b) a special building.
Posted by: antidope at September 1, 2009 4:56 PM
"precisely BHO! you’re learning."
No, dope. I meant your statment that there is no such correlation was pure garbage. There is a correlation - we just haven't pinned down the exact number (I only stand corrected about that).
"a $2 mio ask might have comped at an actual 25% off, or $1.5 mio. and if it sells for $1.35 mio, then the sales price is actually off peak comps by 10%."
How you figure? That $2 mil might be based on peak comps or something not too far below. If something sells for 1.35 mil post-Lehman then you can be rest assured that peak comps (established pre-Lehman) were higher in the overwhelming majority of cases.
"how is this a useful base from which to discuss where prices are vis-a-vis ask?"
It's not. It's garbage from you. Are you blurrying the discussion with the confusion of peak comps vs present day comps?
"i don’t think there are many brokers who wouldn’t take that $2 mio listing by the way"
True. I can say they won't dedicate much time to it though because it'd be a certain stalemate. That's the point I was trying to make. Most asks are in some kind of ballpark with comps. Few are way over the top. I'm writing from the point of view of Team Reasonable. You know my take on asks (see tagline).
This discussion is motivating me to keep score of the ask/comp spread. I talking recent closed sales around the time of ask. I want to get to the bottom of this. I know there's a correlation because I can feel it. I just don't know the number.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at September 1, 2009 6:17 PM
Yet another Meier unit that makes this list. I'm still confused, as so many on this board have insisted that this building is a failure...
Posted by: Big Jugs at September 1, 2009 6:23 PM
We just bought our house in Fort Greene for $100,000 but it needs some renovation.
Oops! Sorry, time warp, that was a (relatively) long time ago.
Okay, so I tried a little humor at the end of a long day.
***Some day this tagline is going to end...***
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at September 1, 2009 6:24 PM
Okay, Pete. Freefall is my opinion (come on, I'm not alone - MoneyForNothing, No Recovery For You, ROTW, Miss Muffet, cornerbodega, etc, the list grows daily.). But when I say pricing, I'm talking price history. The cascade of asks if you will. They follow the market DOWN, not up. And no, it wasn't commonplace to price below comp to incite bidding war. Asks mostly went up, not down, during the run-up. I remember. I was shopping. Regarding resales in new buildings - the data is out there. Remind me, I'll try to scrape something together. Don't really follow condos anymore.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at September 1, 2009 6:25 PM
In freefall failure?
Climbing stairs/Descending stairs
Brooklyn beats best bets
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at September 1, 2009 6:32 PM
A million bucks for a two bedroom apartment in the Meier building sounds somewhat reasonable, but I still wouldn't be surprised if this time next year similar apartments are being sold for 30% less. Seriously, in lots of cities, $700,000 can buy a duplex penthouse. People who are still flush with cash these days aren't foolish enough to part with it so stupidly.
The party's over. Time to sober up, folks.
Posted by: IronBalls at September 2, 2009 12:18 AM
I know that President Street block. What a rude million dollar awaking living across the street from #198 is going to be.
Did the broker mention you get your very own junkie occasionally sleeping on the stoop for that price?
Posted by: HoneysuckleWeeks at September 4, 2009 11:47 AM
Latest Restaurant Additions
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Le Barricou
added November 20, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Der Schwarze Kölner
added November 19, 2009 12:00 PM in Fort Greene -
Oak Wine Bar & Café
added November 18, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Mr. Wonton
added November 17, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Casa Rosa
added November 16, 2009 12:00 PM in Carroll Gardens -
Cousin John's Café & Bakery
added November 13, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Elote
added November 12, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Miracle Grill
added November 11, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Phoebe's Cafe
added November 10, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Ruthie's
added November 9, 2009 12:00 PM in Clinton Hill, Downtown Brooklyn
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