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September 14, 2009
Co-op of the Day: 57 Montague Street, #4A
The views alone make this two-bedroom co-op at 57 Montague Street in Brooklyn Heights worth looking at. We like the large living room, too, and the common roof deck. But the monthly maintenance of $1,573? Not so much. That makes the asking price of $849,000 a little tougher to swallow.
57 Montague Street, #4A [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
wrong price on widget
Posted by: more4less at September 14, 2009 12:44 PM
I realize it's right off the Promenade, and that the market is stabilizing, but the average appraisal of $3.2 million still seems a tad high to me. Widget trouble perhaps?
Posted by: CarrollGardened at September 14, 2009 12:44 PM
The carping on maintenance for coops like this is absurd. This apartment likely pays 3X more in real estate taxes than a $2MM brownstone (inequitable but true) and has all the services one needs. The maintenance here is reasonable for what you must pay (taxes) and get (services).
Posted by: BH76 at September 14, 2009 12:52 PM
Can't speak to prices in BH, but love that kitchen window.
Posted by: setancre at September 14, 2009 12:55 PM
Really nice layout. Good use of the sq ft it has. Would probably rent for $4,200-$4,500 given the location. This makes the price look ridiculous, mainly because of the common charges. At $650,000 it might work. At that price, fuggedaboutit.
Posted by: Brokedeveloper at September 14, 2009 1:10 PM
almost a million dollars for project style floors. ? :-/
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 14, 2009 1:10 PM
Maintenance might be reasonable in the sense BH76 is describing -- i.e., no choice with the higher taxes and the services. But monthly payments of mortgage plus maintenance is quite high for square footage. Price might need to give because of that.
Looks like a comfortable well laid-out apt. with beautiful exposures. What floor is it on though? Seems lower than the descriptions of the views imply.
Posted by: Nomi at September 14, 2009 1:14 PM
Love this bldg. Assuming they'll take high 700s and I think they'll get that
Posted by: Ringo at September 14, 2009 1:15 PM
Rob. You love saying that, don't you? You trouble maker.
It's true, there's a whole range of parkay floors, and these are not my favorite, but they are parkay floors. For Christ's sake.
Posted by: Nomi at September 14, 2009 1:17 PM
The asking price and maintenance seems in line to me.
Hey, if you can't afford to live in the Heights, there are more affordable options. This co-op board is tough too. If you want to live here you better be able to show you can afford it and that you are in excellent financial health.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 1:18 PM
sorry but parquet floors always reminds me of the projects.
*rob*
Posted by: Butterfly at September 14, 2009 1:20 PM
Just for the record, this is a dreamy art-deco building with gorgeous half-round bay windows similar to the ones at the Rockefeller Apartments across from the MOMA garden in Midtown. I can't understand how anyone in their right mind could be reminded of the projects by this.
PS, not to be too pedantic, but parkay is margarine, parquet is a type of wooden flooring.
MLF
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 1:26 PM
I don't know why, but I've never cared for this building. I think it has something to do with the fact that the air conditioners in the windows really seem to detract more from a building like this than others because the windows are really the star attraction.
I always think how frumpy and kinda run down this building looks because of it. It's a shame because the inside of this apartment looks really nice and the windows look much nicer to me from the inside than they do from the outside.
No clue about the price, but I would never pay that kind of maintenance for an apartment this size.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 1:37 PM
I agree with Sam
I also agree with BH76 - the maintenance is all about the taxes. If you want to own an apartment in Brooklyn Heights, you have to get past the attitude of "I would never pay that kind of maintenance for an apartment this size."
Posted by: NorthHeights at September 14, 2009 1:41 PM
"PS, not to be too pedantic, but parkay is margarine, parquet is a type of wooden flooring."
Oh, but I meant the margarine floors.
Posted by: Nomi at September 14, 2009 1:41 PM
Margarine floors are awful especially in the summer if you have cats.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 1:45 PM
Minard... you're subscription to the "Location, Location, Location" mantra is a bit over the top.
Basically, you're message is "Brooklyn Heights is priced to keep out the riffraff. Even if it's a 250 sq ft studio priced at $1.7 million with $2000/mo maint, I'm going to say the price tag and maintenance are in-line because that's what the location demands!! The actual property is basically meaningless in the calculation."
Posted by: tybur6 at September 14, 2009 1:50 PM
tyburg: One needs to be financially secure to move into this building, that is all I said. You are the one using words like riffraff, which I find distasteful.
Also this is not a studio, it is a lovely 2-bedroom, 2-bath apartment in one of the most magnificent Art Deco buildings in Brooklyn. What part of that implies lack of value to you? If this doesn't sell for at least $800,000, we're all in trouble in the boro.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 2:00 PM
"If this doesn't sell for at least $800,000, we're all in trouble in the boro."
I have no idea what this statement means, but I find it absurd.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 2:04 PM
minard lafever = broker
Posted by: CHAOCguy at September 14, 2009 2:08 PM
You could be right, Chaocguy. And one that specializes in Brooklyn Heights at that, I would guess due to the extreme nature of the BH boosting.
I love the fact that he/she thinks that there's people left with the money to spend NO LESS than 800K on a 1000 sf 2 bedroom with obscene maintenance, but there are no people left to buy a huge, perfect mansion 10 times this nice for 3 million.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 2:12 PM
tybur6: Brooklyn Heights is TAXED to keep out the rif raf! Not much we can do about it...unless the rest of you want to lobby to pick up more up more of the burden.
Posted by: BH76 at September 14, 2009 2:13 PM
when jumbo financing is out the window, I don't see it so unreasonable to think there are still lots of folks who can and will spend $500K cash to buy this apartment but not so many people able or willing to pony up $1-$2 million cash for a house, no matter how nice.
Posted by: NorthHeights at September 14, 2009 2:24 PM
The very last thing in the world that I am is a real estate broker. Heaven forefend! I am a brooklyn Heights booster, I think it is a great neighborhood. 11217 is a Park Slope booster, he must feel the same way about his nabe that I do about mine. I'm less antagonistic than he is tho.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 2:37 PM
I may be more antagonistic (mostly in good fun) but I would NEVER say that if a run of the mill art deco 1000 sf 1 bedroom apartment in BROOKLYN doesn't get almost a million dollars with 1500 a month maintenance, we are all in trouble as a borough.
That is absurd.
When you look at rent to own ratios (which you should be) this apartment is about 200K overpriced.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 2:54 PM
This is a very good price for a nice sized apartment in a great location - comparable apartments in BH have been selling closer to $900K recently. I'll be shocked if they don't get their asking price.
Posted by: columbiatch at September 14, 2009 2:55 PM
Some years ago I looked at a place in this building. The apartments are very handsome, the lobby less so. I was very put off by something about the proportions of the lobby, plus it had some very drab, bunchy, gray carpet, which I trust has since been replaced.
Once you add service to a high tax building, it's hard to get maintenance any lower than about $1.25/sf. And, if I recall, this building has a fair amount of staff, which is going to send it up even higher.
What I want to know is how some of those buildings in Park Slope offer such obscenely low maintenances. Their RE tax must be absurdly low and they must have no underlying financing. I'm also pretty sure they have no services whatsoever, and they may be doing without a Management Co.I run my co-op's books and I just can't see any way else they can do it.
Posted by: bessie2 at September 14, 2009 3:00 PM
11217, the apartment is going for $849,000 not a million and it is not run of the mill. Furthermore, if you did your research on what the the going rate is for maintenance on top-notch co-ops in Brooklyn and Manhattan you would see that this figure is well in line. There is nothing outlandish about this ask, and furthermore there is nothing illogical about my comment that when a prime property in a prime neighborhood cannot sell for a decent price then the whole boro is in trouble especially the not-so-prime properties in not-so-prime locations. I am in no way trying to denigrate Park Slope. It is my second favorite neighborhhod. You on the other hand are trying to denigrate Brooklyn Heights, both here and on other threads, and that stinks. There is plenty of room in Brooklyn for many nice neighborhoods.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 3:03 PM
I love Brooklyn Heights, Minard.
The difference is that if this apartment sells for 700K, I will love it just as much and think Brooklyn is EVEN HEALTHIER because of it.
You holding onto your home value is not the clincher for the health of Brooklyn.
Allow more and more people the opportunity to our borough is better for it, in my opinion.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 3:16 PM
You also seem to have a complex about older people, Minard.
I never said older was worse and younger was better, so unless you are projecting, how is me saying that the average age of Brooklyn Heights (a true statement) is "denigrating" it?
Brooklyn Heights is an extremely lovely, very wealthy, very white, a bit older neighborhood. True or not?
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 3:21 PM
bessie, this building did a major lobby/hallway renovation a couple of years ago. agree, it used to be not so good. about your question, taxes are higher in BH. they're very high in fact. the "services" would be the same since it's union all over the city. I'm on our board and it's really difficult these days. Taxes, services, and heat. KIller!
Posted by: Ringo at September 14, 2009 3:25 PM
seems to me that the rent vs own comparison on this is in line, perhaps slightly favoring ownership. Approx $4,500 mort pmt + $1,500 maintenance less tax shields and equity component of mortgage pmt results in around $3,600 monthly outlay (ex closing costs).
What do you think this would rent for?
Posted by: Bklyn365 at September 14, 2009 3:39 PM
This apartment would most likely rent for about $5K/month... which is just about what it would cost after tax at the asking price.
Posted by: BH76 at September 14, 2009 3:39 PM
Anyone who would pay 5K a month to rent this place would be the ultimate sucker.
The mortgage and maintenance on this place is $5700 a month.
I have confidence you could find a comparable rental for 4K.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 3:45 PM
And Bklyn365...the monthly outlay is still almost 6K a month.
You don't receive the tax savings each month. That is something you get back when you file your taxes.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 3:48 PM
Why is that relevant? It's still $ you get back each year; plus you could probably tweak your withholding for a monthly benefit, but again, kind of irrevelant.
Probably not a $5K/mo rental, but I think $4.2K or so. Anything over $3,750 per mo and I think you'd be better off buying.
Posted by: Bklyn365 at September 14, 2009 3:55 PM
11217 is on the warpath today.
see you all tomorrow.
MLF
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 4:27 PM
"Why is that relevant?"
Because you need to be able to afford to PAY $5700 per month.
It's not irrelevant at all....the entire housing market just burst because too many people decided they could afford things based on your very fuzzy math.
There's a big difference between 3600 and 5700 a month.
Posted by: 11217 at September 14, 2009 4:39 PM
Of course you need to be able to cover the pre-tax amount, but when comparing the two alternatives you need to look post-tax.
Posted by: Bklyn365 at September 14, 2009 4:45 PM
A friend and I were just talking about how every other women in Brooklyn Heights is pregnant. It seems to me like there are a lot more young families than there were 5 years ago. Still not a lot of singles or 20-somethings, but it's not ALL seniors.
Posted by: Ringo at September 14, 2009 5:05 PM
Funny thing about the whole tax deduction thing, is that you LOSE it once you hit the AMT or worse, if you lose your job (no income, no tax deduction). How many people out there do you think were counting on the mortgage deduction, only to lose it when they became unemployed? A double whammy if there ever was one.
Posted by: Brokedeveloper at September 14, 2009 6:42 PM
I tend to agree with Ringo's anecdotal evidence...and the census data backs up his 5-10 year ago assessment.
According to nyc.gov per 2000 census:
Brooklyn Heights--
total population: 20,132
percentage households w/ persons 65 years and over: 18.9% (#: 1,965)
percentage households w/ 65 years and over living alone: 6.9% (#: 1,219)
female householder with no husband present as a percentage of total households: 3.8% (#: 393)
Park Slope--
total population: 57,442
percentage households w/ persons 65 years and over: 12.4%
(#: 3,273)
percentage households w/ 65 years and over living alone: 2.4% (#: 1,381)
female householder with no husband present as a percentage of total households: 10% (#: 2,637)
here's the racial breakdown:
BH --
77.5% white
7.3% black
4.9% asian
7.5% hispanic
PS --
61.6% white
9.9% black
5.3% asian
19.5% hispanic
Posted by: NorthHeights at September 14, 2009 7:20 PM
log master: you should really review the poster 11217's antagonistic and bullying posts. his multiple posts, one after the other, seem intended to silence other voices. Today, he seemed off his meds. He is a turn-off to me, and I assume to other objective and good natured posters. Especially those of us from Brooklyn Heights, which he seees as an old age village. Has he ever been here? Does he have even a remote attachment to reality? You should ban him for a while. We do not need such bias and negativity.
Posted by: Minard Lafever at September 14, 2009 10:22 PM
Didn't the character played by Jack Nicholson in "Prizzi's Honor" live here?
Can't imagine Mafia hit men would pass the co-op board.
But maybe the film was made about the days when the place was a rental (which would enable hit men to be grand-fathered in).
Posted by: NOP at September 14, 2009 11:44 PM
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