« Brooklyn Food & Drink Round-Up House of the Day: 233 Garfield Place »

September 30, 2009

Condo of the Day: 125 North 10th Street, #NPHD

The new development at 125 North 10th Street in Williamsburg was a little late to the game, hitting the market last March as the world appeared to be collapsing. It took another six months for reality to set in: Across-the-board price cuts were instituted last week. This three-bedroom penthouse, for example, started out at $1,540,000 and is now $1,200,000. Still not giving it away but certainly a step in the right direction.
125 North 10th Street, #NPHD [Core Group] GMAP P*Shark

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did you accidently switch a picture of a high school campus from Hohokus NJ? that is one seriously fugly building (on the outside).

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at September 30, 2009 12:53 PM

This is the link for the HOTD @ 233 Garfield Place.
Anyway, to get back to the prices in Williamsburg: it's probably one of the few places in NYC where prices are going to have to go way down before it makes sense to buy. There are so many apartments, and the initial asking prices were so incredibly high. With Manhattan prices adjusting, some of those listings are now more expensive than downtown Manhattan, and about twice as expensive to buy than to rent. I don't know why they don't bite the bullet and get it over with.

Posted by: Maly at September 30, 2009 12:55 PM

I walk by this building often and it's actually growing on me

Sure, it looks sort of like an office building in south florida - but dare I say the actually apartments look very nice (from what I could see looking through the window)

Believe it or not - external asthetics are probably not that important for alot of people buying condos.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at September 30, 2009 1:07 PM

wrong link

this is a very well done building. walked past it this weekend. it's really nice. not sure that you can judge by this pic. apts facing berry (the shot above is N.10th) have really interesting big covered terraces that i was coveting. they seemed like whole additional rooms.

fyi - there's extensive talk about this building on StreetEasy because some consider it to be one of the better or best of Wburg new developments (the edge may prove to be better, but it's not built yet). many owners have moved in already.

it's a great location, and will be OK long term.

maly - i think your comment is just plain ill informed. Wburg pricing is not higher that Manhattan and isn't even higher than brownstone brooklyn in general. specifically expensive apartments may have to be inspected to understand their pricing (not just in this economy btw) because some apts in Wburg have outstanding manhattan views and of course, like anywhere, features, quality, location, etc... come into play.

Posted by: wine lover at September 30, 2009 1:08 PM

quote:
Believe it or not - external asthetics are probably not that important for alot of people buying condos.

no i believe you.. ive seen how some people dress who have bought in the new condos in my neighborhood. gack

*rob*

Posted by: Butterfly at September 30, 2009 1:12 PM

I don't think I am ill informed. I don't expect you to be fair and impartial (after all, it is where you live), but look at this listing and search for yourself, 3 bedroom condos under 1,500 square feet. You can find condos all over Manhattan for prices similar or under the prices in Williamsburg. It is ridiculous, and the main reason why sales there have stalled.
Make the price 30% under downtown Manhattan, and sales will pick up again.
As nice as some of the views are, you can rent in BPC for less than the cost to own in Williamsburg (if river views and long walks to the subway in freezing windy weather are what makes you happy.)

Posted by: Maly at September 30, 2009 1:20 PM

Sorry, but Maly is a much more informed (and level headed) poster than you are, wine lover.

You are completely, 100% unable to see the downside to anything in Williamsburg and every single restaurant, new piece of crap development that hits the Brownstoner airwaves, you are the first to say it's the best of the best. It's actually so absurd, that whenever I see something about Williamsburg, I *know* there will be a comment from you and I *know* it will be a rave review no matter what it is.

It's laughable.

I don't believe that ANYONE here really cares what you think about anything. #1 because you are racist and #2 for the reason I mentioned above.

Posted by: 11217 at September 30, 2009 1:22 PM

Lots of buildings aren't even bothering to do price cuts in Williamsburg for some reason.

I was keeping an eye on 229 N8th for a bit - their 1 bedrooms were 430ish, and I would have been interested if they got below that 400k threshold (would have been cheaper owning than renting a similar space)

I think they were on the market for less than a month - and they turned rental charging 2600 for a 1 bedroom per month.

Yes, there are people living in them now oddly enough.

I think people have touched on this issue before that the developer has to get permission from the bank to be able to drop prices on these types of places (as well as lowering rents) - so the issue appears to be a tad more complex than the developers being stubborn.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at September 30, 2009 1:42 PM

no floorplan -- just some mock up photos - who can tell what it's like?

Posted by: BH76 at September 30, 2009 1:48 PM

Could someone who knows this stuff tell me: Is there a rent/own ratio or range of ratios that tells you if buying a property is likely to be a good investment?

It seems like lots of people on here believe that owning should cost the same (monthly) as renting. That doesn't make sense to me since you build no equity with renting.

Posted by: Nomi at September 30, 2009 2:05 PM

There are many accepted ways to determine a rent/own ratio. One of the easiest way is to look at cap rate. First you calculate the net income (annual rent - annual expenses) and then divide by the purchasing price. Some people say they want 5% minimum, others think that since rent are pretty low, 4% would work for them. The advantage of this method is that you remove the cost of money, so it is very simple to calculate. Of course, since it's simple and fixed in time, it's also inaccurate.
Another way looks at minimal positive cash flow as fine, since you are building equity with leverage (assuming you can borrow money.) In this instance, even though the cap rate is almost nil, you're looking at real estate appreciation as beating other types of investments. If you carefully select you start and end dates, it can work. The issue is that many people think the appreciation we've seen in the last 30 years is a one in a lifetime demographic blip driven by the baby boomers.
Yet a third way is to look at it is from an owner-occupant for the long term. If you know this is your house forever, and you believe the tax breaks for homeowners will continue, it can be cheaper to own even it cost more than to rent. Over time, the equity you build balances out the increased initial cost.
If you would like to play around with assumptions of return on your downpayment, inflation, appreciation, etc, Trulia has a very nice rent vs. buy calculator.
http://www.trulia.com/rent_vs_buy/

Posted by: Maly at September 30, 2009 2:21 PM

11217 -
i'm not promoting Williamsburg, far from it. i am saying that is NOT true the Wburg psf prices for the SAME THING is more expensive than in Manhattan. perhaps in harlem or something, but not below 96th street Manhattan. that's nuts.

Also, this building is terrific looking on the exterior. Rob - go look! it's great. this pic is misleading.

actually, i think the exterior of my own building is not great looking at all, but this place is.

11217 - you yourself rail on Rob for saying sh*t out of a**. this is another one of those cases. he's never seen this building and knows nothing about it. again, if anyone is interested, they should visit the discussion board on streeteasy about this building. there's hundreds of posts.

Also, how am i a racist?? WTF? why would you say this? where did that come from? i am extremely anti-illegal immigrants but that includes white folks too. you have zero information about my personal life, and if you did, you would never say that. i have spent a good deal of time fighting for civil rights.

yes, most stuff in williamsburg is very good compared to the rest of brooklyn.

Posted by: wine lover at September 30, 2009 2:53 PM

Wow, thanks, Maly. I figured my question would just sit there until the internets disintegrated.

Yes, I will play with the Trulia calculator. I'll probably do that for an embarrassingly long time tonight.

Posted by: Nomi at September 30, 2009 2:56 PM

wine lover's comment re pricing is accurate. while williamsburg prices haven't come down a ton, they've come down a bit. the only places in manhattan that you have a prayer in finding comparably sized units for similar prices would be the far LES, far yorkville or upper manhattan. and there's a lot more going on in williamsburg food/drink/shopping wise than in any of those places.

Posted by: mt_molehill at September 30, 2009 2:56 PM

btw, based on actual closings rather than list pricings, although also on some realistic list pricings, there are a number of condos and homes for sale on the east side of the BQE that would be cheaper to own than rent. this has not been so in many years here. prices here have come down a bit more than on the other side of the highway.

Posted by: mt_molehill at September 30, 2009 2:59 PM

"It seems like lots of people on here believe that owning should cost the same (monthly) as renting. That doesn't make sense to me since you build no equity with renting."

You make no sense. "Building equity" is not a sure thing. People who buy at present prices might build no equity in the next 10 years if this bubble works like the previous one. However, this bubble is much worse than the previous one so the time horizon will likely be longer. Also you forget the fact that people on average spend 7 years on a property. Even if one has good intentions things happen... That's why owning should cost LESS than renting, after all your downpayment is a capital that must have a return in a reasonable time frame especially in risky times such as these.

Posted by: bklplebe at September 30, 2009 4:01 PM

Totally agree with Maly. Manhattan is now cheaper than Brooklyn and that's just insane. I just gave up on Brooklyn and moved back to Manhattan - what's the point of paying Manhattan prices (or more) in Brookyln?!? Maybe I'll pick something up in Brooklyn in a year when prices adjust to sane levels. If not I wont miss Brooklyn at all.

Posted by: loty at September 30, 2009 4:06 PM

What equity? I can rent a better apartment for the money you spend on maintenance, interest payments and property taxes and invest down-payment money. What's your return on real-estate 'equity' for the last 3 years? -30%?

Posted by: loty at September 30, 2009 4:10 PM

you seem rich and poorly informed.

Posted by: mt_molehill at September 30, 2009 4:11 PM

"If not I wont miss Brooklyn at all."

You mean you won't even come to read and post on a blog which is 99% about Brooklyn?

Aw shucks!

Posted by: 11217 at September 30, 2009 4:12 PM

"what's the point of paying Manhattan prices (or more) in Brookyln?!?"

Because I like Brooklyn more.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at September 30, 2009 4:43 PM

Ditto what DH said.

If I won the powerball, I wouldn't move back to Manhattan.

I kinda hate Manhattan actually.

Posted by: 11217 at September 30, 2009 4:52 PM

"If I won the powerball, I wouldn't move back to Manhattan.
I kinda hate Manhattan actually."

Definitely - it would have to a pretty special opportunity in a pretty special neighborhood for me to really go for it. I did love my time on Elizabeth St, but I'd take Williamsburg, Cobble Hill, Fort Greene, Boerum Hill, and the Slope over most of Manhattan, no question.

Posted by: bjw2103 at September 30, 2009 5:14 PM

Bjw:

You might be happy to know that *I* would absolutely take Williamsburg over Manhattan any day of the week.

;)

Posted by: 11217 at September 30, 2009 5:34 PM

Manhattan puts me in a horrible rage half the time I go there- I HATE that place. It's a completely different city in many ways than Brooklyn. and I cannot imagine a circumstance which would make me move back to Manhattan. Residents of Brooklyn are nicer, I'm completely bike-mobile here, and my neighbhorhood (PLG) is neighborhood orientated and FAR cheaper than Manhattan. Also, if I lived as close to Central Park as I live to Prospect Park, my mortgage would probably be $4000 more per month! Brooklyn Pride!

Posted by: cmar7785 at September 30, 2009 7:03 PM

"Manhattan puts me in a horrible rage half the time I go there"

Ha! Me too. Sometimes I think I will end up like some older Brooklyn people who almost never go to Manhattan. If anyone remembers Josie on Court St. in Carroll Gardens (crazy, ran "Josie's"), I think she told me she'd been in Manhattan twice in her whole life which was 70-something years at that point.

But . . . certain things are only in Manhattan, unfortunately. Certain things I don't want to miss. Like the Vermeer that's at the Met right now. Cannot miss that. Alas.

Posted by: Nomi at October 1, 2009 4:33 AM

11217, what a load of horse manure. 99% of people in billyburg won't be there if they could afford a place in the city. Same applies to other fringe places (LI City, etc) where the only perceived value is in the proximity to Manhattan. So now take the only argument - cheaper prices - out of the equation and what do you have left? Either Manhattan prices have to rise dramatically or Brooklyn prices have to fall a LOT for parity to return.

Posted by: loty at October 1, 2009 11:57 AM

"99% of people in billyburg won't be there if they could afford a place in the city."

loty, I've heard this before. I have yet to see any real evidence of it. There's much more perceived (and actual) value in the neighborhood than its proximity to 14th St. The problem is, too many people see Manhattan as this stand-alone, universally awesome thing, when the fact of the matter is, it's composed of many, many neighborhoods, some of which are great, some of which are ok, and some of which are terrible (and this is all subject to taste of course). The same is true of Brooklyn. And for living purposes, I prefer Williamsburg (and several other Brooklyn areas) over the vast majority of Manhattan. And there are plenty of others who have had the same thought process instead of just getting stuck at the pretty-dumb "Manhattan = good, Brooklyn = less good" line of reasoning.

Posted by: bjw2103 at October 1, 2009 12:11 PM

« Brooklyn Food & Drink Round-Up House of the Day: 233 Garfield Place »

September 30, 2009

Condo of the Day: 125 North 10th Street, #NPHD

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