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August 25, 2009

Mystery Downtown Development Going Affordable

The New York Post ran a story yesterday mentioning two luxury condo buildings in talks with the city to unload their unsold units as affordable housing. One building is in Harlem and the other in Downtown Brooklyn, according to the article, but officials cannot reveal where the properties are while negotiations are still occurring. Any guesses, readers? The article says that the city is in negotiations with "banks that have foreclosed on the properties," and that the Brooklyn development is in Downtown. The leading guesses in the Forum are Forte and be@schermerhorn (above). What do you think?
City Dealing to Make Luxe Condos Cheaper [NY Post]

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Comments

Assuming the two are Forte and be@, what % of the units have already been sold???? What is the legal standing of the current unitholders when something like this changes the development so dramatically??

I reiterate my rant (one of many) that buyers purchase in new develoments AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:04 AM

It's Forte. The article mentioned buildings that "banks that have foreclosed on the properties" that can only be Forte. I feel really bad for the people that paid $900 psf to live there.

Posted by: bklynbricks at August 25, 2009 9:06 AM

I'd wager be@ fior the simple reason that be has SO many more units. Its a no brainer. The Forte has more occupancy and also far fewer apartments.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at August 25, 2009 9:07 AM

My question...what is their definition of "affordable housing?" Will we see dramatic price drops at these properties - ie more than 25% or so?

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at August 25, 2009 9:08 AM

Case Schiller numbers slightly better than expected.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:11 AM

"The New York Post ran a story yesterday mentioning two luxury condo buildings in talks with the city to unload their unsold units as affordable housing."

I never hate it when I'm right! Now Jackasses ask yourself one question- Will you continue to maintain your mortgage as the "Asset" goes Tango Uniform?

Goodbye Assheads, thanks for the "Good Times"..

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:11 AM

"Now Jackasses ask yourself one question- Will you continue to maintain your mortgage as the "Asset" goes Tango Uniform?"

Maintaining your mortgage doesn't have much to do with these places going "Tits Up."

News Flash.......the majority of Americans are maintaining their mortgage payments.

No comments on the Case-Schiller numbers or are you still analyzing the data?? Don't think too hard now; you'll give yourself a headache.

This war has already ended.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:15 AM

I think it's kind of awesome. Almost wish they'd skip the "affordable" part and just move poorer-than-"affordable" people in there and then raise some of the projects.

I thought be@ had already released a number of units as affordable housing.

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 9:21 AM

"Maintaining your mortgage doesn't have much to do with these places going "Tits Up.""

Why Dave? Are you afraid? If some Retard paying 4500.00+ in Mortgage payments on a 2 Bedroom Condo and his neighbor is paying 1700.00 a month rent on the same unit then Jackass, will the Retards continue to service his Debt eh.. Mortgage???

"I think it's kind of awesome. Almost wish they'd skip the "affordable" part and just move poorer-than-"affordable" people in there and then raise some of the projects."

That's coming... They're trying to break the news gently..

The What (Here comes the I-Beam)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:29 AM

Actually the person who was correct was me. I said over and over that all this construction would impact on the affordable housing in NYC. Yet the build-nothing crowd constantly bemoaned all new construction as leading to unaffordability and gentrification - which of course goes against all rules of economics.
And so now here we are 18mo past the boom and already the new construction is helping to make NYC more affordable and more attractive.
Please remember this lesson when the next boom occurs.

Posted by: fsrg at August 25, 2009 9:33 AM

what does affordable housing mean?
Is that offered to families who are working, tax paying folks who simply cannot afford to pay $3000 a month for a 3 BR in a nice/safe part of Brooklyn?
Or are we talking section 8 families who can be a dice roll.....

Posted by: gemini10 at August 25, 2009 9:36 AM

I'm guessing be@ - like Prodigal_Son said - there's less occupancy (I don't think anyone's living there) and a lot more units. Moreover, they weirdly pulled all but one of their available listings from streeteasy - which seems either like they're going rental or making some other big change.

Posted by: perhaps at August 25, 2009 9:39 AM

If you cannot rent your dwelling to cover your mortgage,insurance, taxes and utilities, you have probably paid too much for your dwelling.

The question is, since this is true over 90% of the city, why are realtors continuing to say its a great time to buy?

Buyers, why would you buy right now?

Sincerely,

Fred Flintstone

Posted by: Springs at August 25, 2009 9:41 AM

Long time lurker here...I feel really sad for anyone that bought into these buildings. They are so screwed and forget about re-financing. Seems to me the best option for those owners is to walk away from their mortgages, because they're credit is finished anyway.

The risk on new versus existing is just different, I don't see how it's more risky to buy new when existing is riddled with fraud too. True in existing you buy into an established building, but there's then you take on a whole set of other risks.

Posted by: bklyn_rntr at August 25, 2009 9:41 AM

quote:
what is their definition of "affordable housing?" Will we see dramatic price drops at these properties - ie more than 25% or so?

it will be something mad ridiculous. like you have to make between 20 and 30 K and buy a place for 400K and your mortgage will be 95 percent of your income. what's the point?

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 9:41 AM

I believe that the BE@Schmerhorn has not received its CO....Therefore, closings have not begun. Contract signers may have leverage if it is one of the buildings scheduled to go affordable.

The Forte is another matter altogether. Clarett surrendered to its lenders which includes Goldman Sachs. Coupled with the fact that the local assemblyman said out loud that the conversion to affordable was something that was desirable. The conversion to affordable (i.e. less than what they paid for) would be a sad outcome in the recent condo construction boom.

Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at August 25, 2009 9:42 AM

It's Be@, Forte is in Fort Greene.

Posted by: ReMiXxd at August 25, 2009 9:42 AM

quote:
I think it's kind of awesome. Almost wish they'd skip the "affordable" part and just move poorer-than-"affordable" people in there and then raise some of the projects.

newsflash: shuffling people from the projects and scattering them around the country has DESTROYED communities across america. once SUPER safe suburbs and towns are now cesspools with people afraid to leave their own houses because of a lack of police presence and lack of many people on the street. people run red lights because they are afraid to stop their car in many neighborhoods.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 9:43 AM

" Moreover, they weirdly pulled all but one of their available listings from streeteasy - which seems either like they're going rental or making some other big change."

Word is the big Condo development are Covertly applying for Section 8 and other subsidies.

You see Jackasses this the Dark Side of New York City! The Mutant Asset Bubble lured Suckers from everywhere to build up NYC tax base and overpay for inferior construction and now the whole thing is crashing down your heads.

Ask yourself one question- Will it better from here? My answer is no....

The What (Buh Bye)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:44 AM

" Moreover, they weirdly pulled all but one of their available listings from streeteasy - which seems either like they're going rental or making some other big change."

Word is the big Condo development are Covertly applying for Section 8 and other subsidies.

You see Jackasses this is the Dark Side of New York City! The Mutant Asset Bubble lured Suckers from everywhere to build up NYC tax base and overpay for inferior construction and now the whole thing is crashing down your heads.

Ask yourself one question- Will it better from here? My answer is no....

The What (Buh Bye)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:45 AM

fsrg for the win.

Posted by: eh at August 25, 2009 9:47 AM

It doesn't seem much different than those "luxury" developments that have an affordable housing component, like the Edge. One guy living there pays one third of the price that his next door neighbor does.

Its better to have homes with people in them than just sitting empty.

Posted by: dittoburg at August 25, 2009 9:47 AM

Posted by: bklyn_rntr at August 25, 2009 9:41 AM

There are a few things in your post that you really need to understand before you post like that!!!!

First, why is their credit "finished anyway?" Do you know what walking away from a mortgage does to your credit??

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:49 AM

"I feel really sad for anyone that bought into these buildings. They are so screwed and forget about re-financing. Seems to me the best option for those owners is to walk away from their mortgages, because they're credit is finished anyway."

How many tears do you want? A few years ago these Jackasses was smug and "smart"! Everyone was doing Real Estate and it damaged this nation as a whole and now we should feel sorry for them????????? Are you F*** kidding me????!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:49 AM

A few years ago these Jackasses was smug and "smart"! Everyone was doing Real Estate and it damaged this nation as a whole and now we should feel sorry for them????????? Are you F*** kidding me????!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 9:49 AM

By your own admission, you were a broker then too.

GOD KNOWS HOW MANY LIES YOU SPEWED AND WHAT DAMAGE YOU DID.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:53 AM

well if your mortgage is worth a multiple of the value of the house and you are not loaded (i.e. you can't cover the difference from savings) what happens to your credit standing? you are not getting another mortgage anyway so you are essentially paying a huge premium to live in public housing!! I'd say for most people that you are economically better off to walk away and find a place in a nicer building to rent, at possibly less than your mortgage payments. Your credit is toast for like 7 years, but you effectively can't borrow anyway if you are overleveraged on a house

Posted by: bklyn_rntr at August 25, 2009 9:55 AM

I think I was pretty clear for a long time that new construction condos are very high risk.

How many lowball offers did the developer/realtor turn down - offers that could have saved the development if they had been accepted?

In a falling market, always price below the last trade, not above, and never hire a realtor who mocks people for making low bids rather than working with them.

On a different note, I ask you: how big a bag of crack would you have to smoke before buying this place all cash for a million dollars? What, why don't you take the first "crack" at answering this one.

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1554777

Posted by: lechacal at August 25, 2009 9:56 AM

bklyn rntr...you can't walk away from a mortgage and expect to get another one. Come on.

Additionally, your credit rating has nothing to do with your loan-to-value ratio or what it has become. Your credit standing only has to do with whether or not you pay on time.

Your thinking has some major logical flaws.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 9:58 AM

"On a different note, I ask you: how big a bag of crack would you have to smoke before buying this place all cash for a million dollars? What, why don't you take the first "crack" at answering this one"

Lechacal you smacked it out of the park! This one of the reasons I'm not in Real Estate anymore! People forget Time=Money and every offer you turn down the expectation decreases. The Psychology is astounding and like I said this period of time will be someone's Doctoral Thesis.

This says it all..

"Bring your ideas and your architect. THIS SELLER SEEKS A CASH BUYER ONLY. "

God help us.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 10:06 AM

"What, why don't you take the first "crack" at answering this one."

Oh forgot one thing! You can deposit in the bank the million and live "Rent Free" in Park Slope!!!

The What (Refute that!)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 10:08 AM

well I would imagine that any normal bank will look at the debt you have, at the value of the apt you "own" and then decide if you can borrow. If you owe 850kon a 500k apt you owe a lot of money you don't have. Why would any bank lend to you, and who would refi that mortgage. No sane bank would. Your FICOmay be fine, but you ability to borrow is still massively impaired. Oh and BTW when your existing guy realises that you are trapped in the mortgage you have wait to see the crap treatment you get from servicers etc, because they know you can't re-fi away from them.

If you default, you get put in the penalty box for 7 years and then all's fine, as far as I understand it. So default, rent and save for 7 years and then you can borrow again or carry on paying a multiple of what your property is worth for 30 years and hope prices come back. Seems like an easy decision to me.

Posted by: bklyn_rntr at August 25, 2009 10:13 AM

Forest City Ratner defined "affordable housing" as applying to families making up to $130K for AY. The term has lost all practical meaning. Those who wish to have everyone running in fear of "project dwellers" invading their lux pads use the term for their own reasons, as do those who expect to be living down the hall with those making much more than the median average for Brooklyn.

That leaves those in the middle, the average working people who want and need good, truly affordable housing, in limbo. These are the people who would be good tenants in a condo building, and appreciative of the opportunity, if given. The whole idea of emptying out the projects, so you can "raise" (that's raze)them is alarmist crap, reminiscent of block busting tactics of the not so long ago past.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 25, 2009 10:14 AM

Lechacal:

This seller seeks a cash buyer. Translation...There is something that is wrong with this property. After numerous appraisals, that came in lower than we anticipated because of a downward moving market, previously unreported deficiences we refused to budge from our pie in the sky price. We, the sellers want to skip the nuisance that comes with the appraisers banks insist upon.

Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at August 25, 2009 10:14 AM

also the actual projects are MUCH better built and higher quality (minus the fancy schmancy finishes of course) than these crappy condos.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 10:20 AM

just a little math. Be@ has 250 units multiply that by 50,000 and it would come to 12,000,000. The city only has 20,000,000 for the entire program. Forte has about 70 units left which would com to 3,500,000. Its the Forte!

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 10:22 AM

The developer of be@ built 53 Boerum and was going to go rental when he saw the opportunity to sell as condos. He has already said that he would go rental with this one if he had to.

Affordable is not cheap - you need to meet income guidelines that many people may meet but they will not have the downpayment. Having OWNERS in a building is always a good thing. Most of the developers were never going to be able to provide the amenities that they promised at the fees that were budgeted.

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 10:22 AM

Let's get back to the downtown brooklyn topic. Do you think in future 3 years this area is going to go a lot better?

Would more people move in to this area?

What's the consequences of having affordable housing in those condos?

With so many high rising buildings and units, the price should come down a lot but I still don't see this happened.
The Avalon's rent is expensive as well.

Posted by: seahawk at August 25, 2009 10:23 AM

BrooklynIsHome - Agree, this place clearly cannot be financed. But it just hit the market today so I don't think there is a price history with this one. One way or another if this buyer thinks someone is going to pour a million hard cash dollars into this place, then spend another $700k or $800k or whatever doing a top-to-bottom gut reno, only to end up $1.8 million in the hole on a modestly sized house on Park Place between 5th and 6th (near scenic Flatbush, Atlantic Center, Atlantic Yards, and the skanky end of 5th Ave), in this market, the seller is under the influence of either hard drugs or an irresponsible realtor.

Posted by: lechacal at August 25, 2009 10:24 AM

Rob is so right about this - Putting aside some aesthetic issues, the projects seem to an outsider to be better built than a lot of the new construction condos out there, which just brings home the hilarity of someone borrowing a million bucks to live in a flimsy, depreciating asset for a monthly after-tax cost that is higher that what they would spend to rent.

Brownstones/rowhouses are going to OK though. And by "OK" I mean prices won't go down very much more and there will always be an active market for them - no one will ever get frozen in as they can in when a condo development goes bust. This is where I disagree with some of the bears.

Posted by: lechacal at August 25, 2009 10:29 AM

"The Avalon's rent is expensive as well."

The Avalon is still under construction. They can ask whatever they want.

Posted by: lechacal at August 25, 2009 10:30 AM

If it is the Forte, I'd say they should ask Brownstoner for their advertising dollars back.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 10:37 AM

11217, ROFL!!! That's awesome.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at August 25, 2009 10:40 AM

NYC Apartment Rents Fall as
Aug. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Manhattan apartment rents fell as much as 10 percent in August from a year ago as tenants gained negotiating power in the recession.
Rents on one-bedroom apartments in buildings with doormen dropped 10 percent from a year earlier to an average of $3,274, according to a report by the Real Estate Group of New York. Studio prices fell 7 percent in those buildings to $2,329 and two-bedrooms declined almost 6.9 percent to $5,161.
“This month has been a bit of a power struggle between
renters seeking value and property managers trying to capitalize on the last of the summer demand,” according to the report. “The summer peak has been considerably muted this year.”
Rents in Manhattan are falling as unemployment climbs. The number of job seekers rose to 402,200 in July, the highest level since 1992, New York City’s Comptroller William Thompson said yesterday.
In non-doorman buildings, the price of a studio fell 8
percent to $1,931; One-bedrooms dropped 5.9 percent to $2,606 and two-bedrooms fell 8.2 percent to an average of $3,527.

WOW, 10%. THE SKY IS FALLING.

Also, they still look to be considerably more expensive than Brooklyn!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 10:42 AM

guess it's time to ask to be fired so I can qualify for an affordable 3-bedrm in the forte

Posted by: more4less at August 25, 2009 10:42 AM

hey i'm all for it.....just let people know where to send the application and paystubs to....

Posted by: aj at August 25, 2009 10:46 AM

seahawk. DT Brooklyn has become residental. It used to be quiet on the weekends and now Court Street's sidewalk are full of residents and tourists. And beter than what? It is not bad now. The new buildings on Schermerhorn near Hoyt (and near be@) have totally changed those blocks.

Fulton Mall will be Fulton mall for a long time -- and that is fine. May not be your or my cup of tea but that's why we live in NYC.

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 10:47 AM

So glad you posted that, Dave. People on here seem CLUELESS about how much Manhattan rentals go for. I'm guessing some will not believe those numbers, even though they are fact.

P.s. I was just reading another article about this affordable housing plan and the quote was that "500K apartments will be offered for around 300k"

So no, this will not be section 8. Many posters here, in fact would still probably not be able to afford the "affordable housing" in these two yet unnamed buildings...

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 10:49 AM

of course it's not affordable 11217. no one here is stupid enough to believe section 8 will go into any of those buildings. duh. these "affordable" units should just be rebranded, "what the damn prices should have been to begin with" units. which are still out of reach for 99 percent of new yorks and 99.95 percent of the country.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 10:52 AM

Confidence Among U.S. Consumers Rose on Jobs Outlook

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3wdcbiGyOfA

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 10:52 AM

Raze! Of course. And I said that I thought it would be great if they allowed people who couldn't AFFORD affordable housing to move in. Not that that is what is happening. But I mean it - I"m not about scare tactics. I think housing projects are a failed idea. What's so scary anyway?

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 10:55 AM

Mark my words, this same scenario will creep up on Toren in 6-12 months time.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at August 25, 2009 10:57 AM

If you think you can qualify for a affordable condo purchase plan with little or no income, you're dreaming! Here's a guideline, if your downpayment would require you to get PMI - you have no chance in the current lending environment. If your debt to income ratio is worse than 40%, forget about it.

If one of these newly affordable 1 bedroom condos will now sell for 300K, that means unless you have 60K plus closing costs in hand, plus earn at least 75K/year or so, you won't qualify. It satisfies a sense of victimization that many on this board have to feel that some welfare queen is getting a break that you're not, but it's time for a reality check. Affordable does not mean what you think it means.

Posted by: LilBitOfLuck at August 25, 2009 10:57 AM

I am a big bear but even I am amazed at todays housing numbers. They just keep going down and down. There should have been some sort of bounce in other parts of the country and yet its off another .7 percent.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 10:58 AM

"Mark my words, this same scenario will creep up on Toren in 6-12 months time."

Rewrite!

Mark my words, this same scenario will creep up on Toren in 3 months time.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 10:59 AM

Toren currently has:

34 completed sales
85 units in contract
23 units currently for sale

Yes, I would like to mark your words. Mark that they are wrong.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:00 AM

"I am a big bear but even I am amazed at todays housing numbers. They just keep going down and down. There should have been some sort of bounce in other parts of the country and yet its off another .7 percent."

"The S&P/Case-Shiller home-price index declined 15.4 percent from a year earlier, the smallest drop since April 2008, the group said today in New York. The gauge rose from the prior month by the most in four years."

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:02 AM

Brickoven the lending products of 2005 are long gone! The fuel that powered the Mutant Asset Bubble is gone and now we await the collapse! 2010 is going to be very very very bad....

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 11:03 AM

Park place building: I subscribe to the "disagreable appraisal" theory. stated reason for cash-buyer preference was that seller already had a deal fall through and didn't want to wait for a buyer to get financing. But they could easily wait a lot longer to find a cash buyer, so I'm not sure I buy it. Most buyers could buy this without a jumbo loan, so I don't see the big closing risk. Saddest thing about this place: it smells like urine and mold from top to bottom, there are/were apparently a LOT of people living there, and instead of desperately needed repairs there are brand new flat-screen TVs on the wall. I really hope there weren't any kids in there.

Posted by: joe_the_bummer at August 25, 2009 11:04 AM

Brickoven,

For someone who CLAIMS to be so smart, your comment that you are surprised that the numbers keep going down shows what a total ignoramus you are. Yes, in a housing bust, the housing numbers will go down. Just like they have in EVERY housing bust in the last 200 hundred years.

And then guess what happens after they go down??

THEY GO BACK UP!!

What a concept!!!

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:05 AM

smart money will walk from contracts at Toren after the Forte. Downtown is too fringe to buy in and the whole area will most likley have to go rental

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:05 AM

The funny thing is "affordable housing" really isn't. In this city people think its either means section 8 and welfare families or at the opposite end, its a 10-20% price drop on an already overpriced space. The real losers are people in the middle who work, aren't making lots of money and just want a place to live that won't eat up most of their salary and be clean and safe.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 25, 2009 11:07 AM

Brickoven:

You also said that Ft. Greene was fringe 2 weeks ago and every single person on this board told you how idiotic you were to say so.

P.S. Brooklyn Heights is directly next to Downtown, in case you've never walked over there.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:07 AM

Toren will start closing in September and is over 50%. No way. Forte in hands of bank at around 30%. Be worked out with banks and is showing/selling. More likely goes rental than affordable.

Posted by: BK realestate veteran at August 25, 2009 11:08 AM

11217 Fort Greene is fringe!

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:10 AM

BH76. When you said for a long time you mean 10 years? There are just so many projects going on in DT which makes me think about Las Vegas where there are so many empty condos.

Plus is the government dedicated to continue those construction such as the CityPoint, Streetscape, etc?

Posted by: seahawk at August 25, 2009 11:10 AM

brickoven, go back over the numbers and read what 11217 posted. You're not getting it.

I always thought you were better with the numbers.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 11:11 AM

11217 how are there any completed sales at Toren if closings have not even started yet?

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:13 AM

"Toren currently has:

34 completed sales
85 units in contract
23 units currently for sale

Yes, I would like to mark your words. Mark that they are wrong."

True enough, perhaps not "affordable" but the value for those who bought in will
-plummet-. Expect rentals, lots of 'em.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at August 25, 2009 11:13 AM

Dave which post? What are you talking about

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:14 AM

Toren currently has:

34 completed sales
85 units in contract
23 units currently for sale
according to 11217

BWHAHAHAHHAHAHHA

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:20 AM

@ 11:02

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 11:22 AM

So east to west, you have Ft Greene (fringe), Downtown (fringe), Bk Heights (most expensive nabe in Brooklyn). That doesn't exactly make sense. Downtown has the best transportation in all of New York, is smack dab in the middle of Bk Heights, Dumbo, Ft. Green, Boerum Hill.

How is that exactly fringe?

Posted by: Bklyn365 at August 25, 2009 11:23 AM

> Toren currently has: 34 completed sales

11217, please learn how to read Streeteasy. These are "previous listings" that "may or may not have sold."

29 of those 34 units are clearly marked as "Off-Market."

Posted by: DitmasSnark at August 25, 2009 11:23 AM

I'm not sure that the Forte is the poster child for all condo buildings. It's got some real negatives. Considering that I don't care that much what the outside of buildings look like, this is one of the few that I find really really bad.

The place is brand new and looks dirty and old already. I'd say that the design is out-dated, but that would mean that it was at some time in fashion, but no way here. It's like a sad lonely high rise in an underpopulated part of a city somewhere (think downtown LA.

Even though it's fairly close to Fort Greene's main drags, it's actual location is pretty bad. Not many areas of Brooklyn have less charm than the Fulton/Flatbush intersection.

Posted by: wine lover at August 25, 2009 11:24 AM

this is all happening at a time when fulton mall is actually be spruced up -- the famous blue sign is no more!

Posted by: bklynite at August 25, 2009 11:25 AM

Toren cannot have completed sales wiohout a CofO and it is not nearly completed. Unless the developer sold a block of units to an investor. I happen to think that most of those units are sold to investors who will never close, but that's me.

All the post-grads want to live in Brooklyn. If the rents on all those units come down, they will move to DT Brooklyn. It will never be like LV .. or Miami.

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 11:26 AM

"Case Schiller numbers slightly better than expected."

Another headfake for 'Italian Suckers'.

...

May-08 194.22 -10.01% -7.74% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Jun-08 194.74 -9.77% -7.04% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Jul-08 193.70 -10.25% -7.04% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Aug-08 193.48 -10.36% -6.61% [FALSE GLIMMER]
Sep-08 191.66 -11.20% -7.13% [BACK TO REALITY]
Oct-08 189.68 -12.12% -7.71%
Nov-08 186.55 -13.57% -8.72%
Dec-08 183.54 -14.96% -9.17%
Jan-09 180.92 -16.17% -9.74%
Feb-09 177.80 -17.62% -10.33%
Mar-09 173.32 -19.70% -11.80%
Apr-09 170.48 -21.01% -12.45%
May-09 170.51 -21.00% -12.21% [FALSE GLIMMER?]
Jun-09 171.49 -20.33% -11.94% [FALSE GLIMMER?]

But two consecutive upticks toward the recent peak! You might be right, DIBS! But there's a flip side: You're probably wrong! You'd have been wrong in Jun 08. Where's commercial RE going? Where's unemployment going? Where's FDIC going? Where's FHA going? Where are the toxic-laced balance sheets going? Where's our national debt going? What's the long term picture (5 years out)?

My call: Another FALSE GLIMMER of hope.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 11:29 AM

Dave there should have been some sort f a positive bounce for the rest of the country and there has not been still off .7 percent Y over Y. Huge pain coming in NYC this year. 11217 stop posting false information here!

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:30 AM

BHO...you start to run up against easy comparisons. The numbers are going to get better if just for that simple reason. Think about it.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 11:32 AM

...forgot heading

DATE, READING, CHANGE FROM PEAK, YOY (Change From Same Month Previous Year)

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 11:34 AM

dave the worrisome thing is that should have happened already not even a dead cat bounse?

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:34 AM

??????????? DIBS @ 11:32. Please restate.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 11:36 AM

11217 every time you post something dumb you outdo my wildest expectations of you

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:37 AM

"BHO...you start to run up against easy comparisons. The numbers are going to get better if just for that simple reason. Think about it."

Tell us why Dave..

What's up BHO, just another month of Case Killer.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 11:37 AM

Brickoven:

Every word you post here is false information.

Or stupid information.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:38 AM

11217 coming from somebody who just got busted posting total BS numbers you got balls

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 11:40 AM

Bxgrl- agreed
I'd like to see familes who are hardworking and maybe only make $40-$90K a year combined get into places like this in a safe nabe that has some nice amenities, sorta what Stuy town was set up like many years ago...

Rob -agreed oddly the project buildings were built like forts as opposed to many of these drywall specials being built today

Posted by: gemini10 at August 25, 2009 11:41 AM

Nothing goes down forever, What. Most of the numbers have already turned. It's why interest rates are rising.

The leading indicator, the stock market, started predicting this quite awhile ago.

You've been left in the dust and are poorer because of it.

You cling to the employment numbers and the housing numbers like a drowning man. They are always the LAST numbers to turn in a recovery. Look it up.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 11:41 AM

I didn't get busted with anything. Off market tells us nothing. They may very well have sold.

Did you even LOOK at the numbers, or are you talking out of your ass yet again?

I see NO ONE here agreeing with you besides What/BHO.

You just got called out AGAIN for saying a non fringe area is fringe.

Why aren't you commenting on that? Please tell us more about how fringe Ft. Greene is!

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:43 AM

What up ROTW. The thrilla of Case Killa. It's like a Bear vs Bullshit brawl up in here.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 11:43 AM

Does anyone here actually know what the guidelines are for affordable housing as far as salary requirements?

Posted by: NYGuy7 at August 25, 2009 11:44 AM

And I already called you out yesterday, BO for being a liar.

You aren't 32, and you most definitely did not own property in Manhattan and sell for a huge profit (as you claim) when you were 29 years old.

I'd believe it, if you sounded like you were a smart person (or even a well educated one coming from old money) but you sound more like Homer Simpson, so I don't buy it one bit.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:44 AM

I still like Forte (more than most of the new buildings). I would happily pay 300K for a 2-bedroom there as long as they can guarantee that the concrete doesn't start falling off the side of the building.

But yeah, duh -- the projects and various Mitchell Llama developments were built larger and better than a lot of the new condo construction. I know I keep saying this, but it is what gets me about the new development boom: 99% of these places spend a third of their square footage on bathrooms, have 10x11 bedrooms, no closets, and island kitchens which only serve to take more space away from the living area. Our rental, which is a failed condo project, is a little like this, except instead of the second bathroom we have a pantry and no island in the kitchen. Although I suspect both of things things happened because they ran out of cash, it's one of the things that makes the apartment more livable.

Posted by: Heather at August 25, 2009 11:44 AM

Allow me to hang you with your own words.

"Nothing goes down forever, What. Most of the numbers have already turned. It's why interest rates are rising."

If interest rates go up then what happens to housing??????????????????????????????

F***** Fool Ass!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 11:44 AM

Interest rates aren't going up so much that they will be a problem. They are just inching up. You never understand the historical context of anything except Bed Stuy in your beloved 70s.

Interest rates have been double digit and as high as the high teens as recently as the late 70s and early eighties. they were much higher in 1990-1993.

They are low, VERY LOW, by historical reference and they will remain that way.

FUCKTARD.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 11:48 AM

http://www.nyc.gov/html/housinginfo/html/homeownership/home_buying_opportunities.shtml

Link for city afforable purchases

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 11:49 AM

> Off market tells us nothing. They may very well have sold.

11217, as much as it pains me to do so, I'm agreeing with brickoven on this one. Off-market does NOT mean sold. There are no actual sales in the Toren as there is no CofO. Period.

Posted by: DitmasSnark at August 25, 2009 11:49 AM

I'm not sure what you are saying, Ditmas.

The 34 units at the bottom of the Streeteasy page show the 34 units which have sold. Closings still have yet to happen, if that's what you are referring to.

It very clearly breaks down the units sold, those in contract and those still for sale.

I stand by the numbers.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:52 AM

So sold isn't the best word, entered contract and waiting to close is more appropriate.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 11:54 AM

does anybody think 11217 has a brain now? Dude you and an idiot!

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 12:02 PM

From City web site -- Harlem affordable coops:

Bluestone East 118th Street Realty, LLC is pleased to announce that applications are now being accepted for 43 cooperative apartment units being constructed at 152 East 118th Street in the East Harlem section of Manhattan. These cooperative units are being offered through the New York City Housing Development Corporation’s Affordable Cooperative Program. The estimated purchase prices for these cooperative units range from $252,184.00 to $324,635.00 and include 10 studio units, 33 one-bedroom units. Maximum annual income restrictions will range from $126,700.00 to 134,400.00.

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 12:05 PM

Brick Oven:

NB, a forum is a place by which individuals share their opinions. In regards to your treatment of 11217, you're just sharing meaness.

Behave your blooming self.

Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at August 25, 2009 12:07 PM

"Dude you and an idiot!"

Rock on, BO. Rock on.

You showed me!

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 12:08 PM

also not taking sides in the bear/bull argument, but as per streeteasy. it does this confusing thing of taking listings that have been pulled and putting them in the 'Sales' column in the 'activity for the building' section. however, that doesn't mean those are actual sales - the ones at Toren are marked as 'off-market' - so those aren't sales, just pulled listings. bad design on streeteasy's part though - don't know why they still haven't fixed that.

Posted by: perhaps at August 25, 2009 12:09 PM

k i will behave u r right

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 12:09 PM

Ok, so let's forget the 34 which are called "sales" then for a second.

What about the 85 apartments under the "in contract" column.

Are those false as well? Because when I click on them each individually they show a precise date in which each of those units "entered contract."

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 12:13 PM

11217 streeteasy is a way for the developers to game the buyers. You should not put much stock in the inventories that are given.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 12:15 PM

11217 in contract means nothing in the new buildings.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 12:18 PM

yes toren's definitely got 85 units out of 240 in contract. so turning into affordable housing doesn't look likely at all. rental, seemingly still a possibility. they certainly don't seem in any hurry to sell out, with an almost edge-like refusal to lower prices or (so i've heard) even negotiate.

Posted by: perhaps at August 25, 2009 12:18 PM

It really doesn't even matter. I was simply stating that with so many units in contract (TONS more than either Forte or Be which have been on the market for MUCH longer) that Toren will not be turning "affordable" anytime soon.

I have faith in that statement, even though Streeteasy is a little effed. That's all.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 12:19 PM

"Brownstones/rowhouses are going to OK though. And by "OK" I mean prices won't go down very much more and there will always be an active market for them - no one will ever get frozen in as they can in when a condo development goes bust. This is where I disagree with some of the bears."

Well said Lechacal.

Posted by: wasder at August 25, 2009 12:20 PM

Streeteasy is easily manipulated by the seller of any given property.
They listed my house under Windsor Terrace when my broker first put the house on the market. SO I emailed Streeteasy telling them I am the owner and my house is located in Park Slope -they fixed it within 24 hours no questions asked.....

Posted by: gemini10 at August 25, 2009 12:27 PM

I could buy a property in foreclosure. That would be less than half off peak comp, which we reached last year at the latest. But I won't. Then I will have nothing to talk about.

I am a real estate agent. Well, I was a real estate agent until I was fired for engaging in criminal behavior. Now I toggle between screen names since I don't have a job unless you consider waiting for the MAB to burst a job. If these condos accept Section 8, I can finnaly move out of mama's house! Have I moved the goal posts lately?

I am 32 years old. I have owned property since I was 5. I sold my place when the value had appreciated exactly $250K. I am a real estate wizzard and a spelling champ.

I am a lawyer and a finance person. I multi-task.

Posted by: ghettoazzpnkbtch at August 25, 2009 12:29 PM

> Ok, so let's forget the 34 which are called "sales" then for a second.

Consider them forgotten. Even the 29 of those 34 clearly marked as "off-market." ;-)

> What about the 85 apartments under the "in contract" column.

They're clearly marked "in contract." Nobody is contesting that. Well, I'm not anyway.

But this does means that only about 1/3 of the units are spoken for. And that means no closings are likely happen until those numbers go up at least a little, because nobody will be able to get financing.

Is that a fair statement?

Posted by: DitmasSnark at August 25, 2009 12:37 PM

Totally fair, Snark.

Considering Forte has been on sale for over 2 years and sold only 1/3, I'd say Toren is doing ok given the situation and the fact that they've been for sale for half the time as Forte (and mostly during the bust) as opposed to Forte which was for sale well before the bust.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 12:40 PM

quote:
I'd like to see familes who are hardworking and maybe only make $40-$90K a year combined get into places like this in a safe nabe that has some nice amenities, sorta what Stuy town was set up like many years ago...

i agree, but also people who choose NOT to breed should get the special advantages too that people who DO breed seem to get in this city. it's really frustrating that families get preference for EVERTHING. not to mention there is reverse sexism involved as well. grrrrr

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 12:43 PM

Hiya Asscracks! The Pole Smoker in Bed Stuy aka PSBS loves to talk about "Green Shoots" right?

Consumer strain: Pens and notebooks put on layaway

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Consumer-strain-Pens-and-apf-1974175437.html?x=0

NEW YORK (AP) -- To gauge consumers' strain, look no further than the rows and rows of plastic bags awaiting layaway payments at Kmart. They are filled with back-to-school basics -- not just T-shirts and jeans but notebooks, magic markers and pencils.

ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!

Burlington Coat Factory Warehouse Corp. said its layaway business is stronger than a year ago. And e-Layaway.com, which offers online layaway services for about 1,000 merchants, has seen its business double from the same time last year. Customers are setting aside even $25 calculators and $30 backpacks.

The Credit Cards are Dead! Layaway is the way to go!

"It just tells you that consumers have no money -- even that $30 backpack is something they can't afford," said C. Britt Beemer, chairman of America's Research group.

Tick.. Tick.. Tick..

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 12:44 PM

11217 you are the dumbest that is fo sho

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 12:46 PM

I am so glad credit cards are dead. Now I won't have to feel bad that my crappy credit, which kept me from getting a credit card in the first place, won't make me feel so inferior.

If I had just gone to college - where credit card companies offer students credit cards all the time - instead of hanging out in the movie theater on Fulton, I could have had a credit card.

Oh well, off to the check cashing store.

Posted by: ghettoazzpnkbtch at August 25, 2009 12:50 PM

"1217 you are the dumbest that is fo sho"

"k i will behave u r right"

Miley Cyrus, is that you lurking on brownstoner??

BO, you write like a 12 year old girl. If there was any doubt in my mind you are a fraud, your comments today have sealed the deal. You add NOTHING to the conversation other than calling people names and telling people who own multiple properties how smart you are to have landed your single rental. You are totally clueless.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 12:55 PM

Rob - agreed I didn't mean to limit it to families. I think they could drop the income requirement a bit for an individual so that they too can have a chance to live in a nice new condo in a safe nabe...

Posted by: gemini10 at August 25, 2009 12:59 PM

"Our rental, which is a failed condo project..."

The Clermont, Heather?

"...the bottom of the Streeteasy page show the 34 units which have sold. Closings still have yet to happen..."

11217 - You serious?

"an almost edge-like refusal to lower prices or (so i've heard) even negotiate"

That's not Toren. That's BANKS/Investors.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 1:01 PM

> Toren is doing ok given the situation

True that. Nice looking building too. Beats the pants off of Forte in the looks department.

Posted by: DitmasSnark at August 25, 2009 1:01 PM

G10...I'm eating a Fresco on the Go meatball sandwich. MMMmmmmm

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:05 PM

quote:
Miley Cyrus, is that you lurking on brownstoner??

Miley has more talent in her little finger than you have in your whole body. and she doesnt have to live in a single room im sketchy park slope!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 1:06 PM

BHO the scary thing is 11217 is serious and no matter how hard people try to explain it to him he keeps burying himself deeper and deeper......

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 1:09 PM

my previous comment was really dumb :-/

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 1:11 PM

"Brownstones/rowhouses are going to OK though. And by 'OK' I mean prices won't go down very much more"

I agree, lechacal, that condos will fare worse but brownstones, inspite of their mystique, just like any other multifamily dwelling, still have to go through the mathematical grinder of affordability (lending standards, employment, interest rates, etc.). Going forward, I don't see how they will be OK. I still see half off, everywhere. Obviously you don't think we're already in a depression that will rival the 30's (too many parallels but yet still an unpopular opinion like the recession call last year). You will change your tune though. In due time.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 1:12 PM

DIBS
Told you Fresco's is AMAZINGGGGGG

Posted by: gemini10 at August 25, 2009 1:12 PM

Scary indeed, BO. I'm off to see TOK.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 1:13 PM

I knew of it bewfore when I lived on East 54th St...before I became an Asshat and moved to the ghetto. Their pizza is spectacular. I also love the lasagne.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:13 PM

Obviously you don't think we're already in a depression that will rival the 30's (too many parallels but yet still an unpopular opinion like the recession call last year). You will change your tune though. In due time.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 1:12 PM

It's really only the lunatic fringe that believes we will have a recession/depression like the thirties. We are already headed into positive GDP numbers. japan is there now.

Denial is not just a river in Eqypt.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:15 PM

> No comments on the Case-Schiller numbers or are you still analyzing the data??

Gosh, I'm *shocked* that DIBS has taken a sudden interest in Case-Schiller now that it's not declining.

Posted by: Smudge at August 25, 2009 1:16 PM

No, BHO. It is too small to have a name. Well, okay, actually it does have a name, but it was never marketed so the name would mean nothing.

Posted by: Heather at August 25, 2009 1:16 PM

"The estimated purchase prices for these cooperative units range from $252,184.00 to $324,635.00 and include 10 studio units, 33 one-bedroom units. Maximum annual income restrictions will range from $126,700.00 to 134,400.00."

Okay, am I the only one who sees problems, even with this affordable housing? 152 East 118th street is in asthma corridor city. Now, I happen to like Spanish Harlem, for what it's worth, but if I wanted to live there it'd have to also be cheap enough to make up for it being in Spanish Harlem, surrounded by bus depots and highway and very few amenities and the Lexington Ave subway line which is not the best.

Studios for $250K? Can't I get that already in Kensington? Inwood? Riverdale? Queens? Nicer parts of Harlem?

1-bedrooms for $324K -- ditto, only even more so?

While I think it's great affordable housing is being built with actual (by NY standards) middle-class income limits, shouldn't it either be a.) sized for families or b.) a hell of a lot cheaper?

How can these prices and this location compete with what's available on the private market?

Posted by: Heather at August 25, 2009 1:23 PM

> Studios for $250K? Can't I get that already in Kensington?

Actually, there are studios for sale in Kensington for less than $150k.

Posted by: DitmasSnark at August 25, 2009 1:37 PM

Heather: That's why I posted. The city "affordable" programs are not such a great deal. Developers own all the politicians in this city.

Posted by: BH76 at August 25, 2009 1:44 PM

And you can find studios for 250K in Prime Park Slope.

But there are some people who will never leave the isle of Manhattan, no matter what it costs (or doesn't cost). Even if that means East Harlem.

Posted by: 11217 at August 25, 2009 1:46 PM

Oh, okay, yeah, BH76. Sorry, sometimes I need to spell these things out for myself.

Posted by: Heather at August 25, 2009 1:49 PM

well truth be told 11217, harlem (even spanish harlem) definitely is a lot cooler than park slope.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 25, 2009 2:17 PM

i just read this thread and i dont understand why 11217 and brickoven are "fighting" about?

but whatever

fort greene is not really fringe tho unless u talking about north of the park or clinton hill (which some think is fort greene). unless u believe any area where non whites live or can be seen must be fringe, in which case brickoven is right.

it may be fringe in 2-3 yrs but not yet at least

in 2-3 yrs NYC could be fringe! i do miss the old days of 2 murders a day on average in times sq....

not

Posted by: dinobot at August 25, 2009 2:24 PM

"How can these prices and this location compete with what's available on the private market?"

You, heather. And I. And we. Taxpayer subsidy. Just like TARP. Another bailout/taxpayer shaft.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 3:10 PM

"It's really only the lunatic fringe that believes we will have a recession/depression like the thirties."

It was the lunatic fringe that called a housing bubble in 2005 and a stock market crash, recession and a drop in rents, last year.

"We are already headed into positive GDP numbers."

Divide that by total US debt and get back to me.

"japan is there now."

How can Japan do any worse than it did for the last 20 years?

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 3:22 PM

I don't respond to What impersonators.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 3:27 PM

How can you? He be spot on. As his impersonators by definition.

DIBS, the economy is going to shit and you know it. Stop misleading the people. Did you divide GDP by total debt like I asked you to? Does it not look parabolic (whoops, another What flag!)?

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 3:37 PM

I don't respond to What impersonators.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 3:27 PM

ROTFLMMFAO! That takes the cake! Hey BHO You got the Lawn Chair, Beer and Ray Ban's ready?

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at August 25, 2009 4:00 PM

If you actually knew what the Fed's balance sheet looked like, BHO, you'd know why the dollar wasn't weakening anymore.

Pull your heads out of your asses, both of you. BHO, if you had put some money in the market late last year you could buy a brownstone now for any price.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 4:32 PM

Screw turning new condos into "affordable" aka "lottery" housing for lucky bastards.

Lets the banks auction the remaining units to the highest bidder and let folks who saved up their money buy an apartment for a reasonable price.

Posted by: IronBalls at August 25, 2009 8:52 PM

I just got an automatic update from Streeteasy indicating that last night around 5pm almost all the units up for sale at the Forté were taken off the market:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/230-ashland-place-brooklyn

There are still six units still listed as up for sale there. That could be a bug on Streeteasy. In any case, there used to be, I don't know, like two dozen apartments listed there.

Posted by: anyhoo at August 26, 2009 7:19 AM

« Tuesday Links Open Thread »

August 25, 2009

Mystery Downtown Development Going Affordable

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