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August 25, 2009

House of the Day: 182 Clinton Street

How the mighty have fallen. 180 Clinton Street hit the market in a fit of optimism in November 2007 with a price tag of $4,200,000. Despite the buoyant market, it failed to sell. Since then, it's been delisted twice and had its asking price reduced twelve times. We're not in love with a few of the renovation touches but, heck, it's still a great house. Unfortunately, it was always one step behind a falling market; if only it could have gotten out in front a long time ago, it probably would have sold for much higher than its current asking price of $2,995,000.
182 Clinton Street [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
Open House Picks 11/28/09 [Brownstoner]

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one of the best blocks in BH in my opinion.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 1:20 PM

Yes, BO, great block.

I'm not liking the built-in bar.

The master bedroom/ensuite/bath/built in closets is obviously going to rattle a lot of nerves but I'm loving it.

The DR on the garden level, not so much. Tacky to make your guests eat down there with the low ceilings, especially at this price!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:23 PM

I agree with you on the pricing strategy. This would have easily sold in 2007/soo8 at a more reasonable price and one above the current price.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:26 PM

never liked this block. state and clinton are two of my least favorite streets in BH, esp clinton. too much traffic, too many dentists/drs on the ground and parlor levels here (altho I like MY dentist on the parlor level of a clinton st bldg!).

but surely it would have gone for 3mm+ at peak.

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 1:33 PM

Ringo you think Clinton is busy? Where do you live?

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 1:36 PM

I'm all for ensuite bathrooms, but this one is ridiculously big.
Yippy....a bidet!

Posted by: Expert Textpert at August 25, 2009 1:40 PM

At the risk of sounding contrarian, I'm not loving this house - not the kitchen, the Wet Bar, the bathroom (even though it is en suite, a definite plus), or even the garden. And I don't think it's a great location - not only is it one block from the very busy intersection of Clinton & Atlantic, but there is Manhattan-bound traffic going past the house pretty much 24/7. Personally, I prefer the side streets or the "Place" blocks in Brooklyn Heights.

Posted by: CarrollGardened at August 25, 2009 1:42 PM

I love it when the master suite is the entire floor

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 1:42 PM

It would have been wiser to have installed a dumbwaiter and used the 'living room' as a dining room with a deck overlooking the garden with access down to it.
And why does one bedroom have a walk-in closet and not the other? Is that bedroom for the stepchild?

Posted by: Expert Textpert at August 25, 2009 1:47 PM

BO...when we agree, we are really in agreement.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 1:50 PM

I know I sound like a broken record, but no powder room on parlor floor? As for dining on garden level, give me a grand parlor floor for that, it would seem so much more festive.

Posted by: DeLepp at August 25, 2009 1:51 PM

Whew! I thought the house was in Clinton Hill. Mistook the "Street" for "Avenue."

All righty, then. A veritable steal @ just under 3 million.

Posted by: dylanfan at August 25, 2009 1:54 PM

So if a guest needs to use the bathroom, should they go through the master bedroom and the closet to enjoy the side by side toilets, or should they go to the kids' bathroom on the 4th floor?

Posted by: Maly at August 25, 2009 1:56 PM

wow! the high end of the brownstone market is really in bad shape. This house in Brooklyn Heights should be selling way over 2.9 million, and yet it's not. I guess finance types are keeping a low-profile and putting what's left of their dough in tax-free bonds and T-bills. Or maybe we are seeing the tide go out as uber-wealthy types re-discover the beauty of mansions with pools and five-car garages in the suburbs. Everything is a cycle and history keeps repeating itself.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 25, 2009 1:56 PM

Maly...you are right. It needs a powder room on either the parlour level or the garden level. You don't want your guests walking through the master bedroom where they could steal change off of the nightstand nor do you want them to have to traipse all the way up to the top floor.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 2:03 PM

too easy to put a powder room in to complain about that. This place is sweet!

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 2:03 PM

Yeah...maybe $5-7,000 to put it in with new plumbing.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 2:05 PM

Hey MrB while we respect your opinions a lot you do come off the snobbiest design critic at times. Honestly what do you really like in a townhouse / brownstone design?? No Granite, exposed brick or recessed lighting in this place. Please Mr B enlighten us a little on contemporary design.

We think the main issue with this place is the lack of Palor floor powder room otherwise this house is beautiful in an excellent location...yes BO this location is superior to most in all of Brooklyn.
DIBS we like that en-suite bathroom like there is no tomorrow unfortunately the sellers misjudged the market. Yep even brownstones in top hoods can drop precipitously in value..dommage but that is $1.2M off asking and still appears overpriced. The bears have it hands down!

Posted by: pierre de taille at August 25, 2009 2:06 PM

Whoooooa....totally missed the bathroom setup. It is shitty (No pun intended)
Not even a bathroom or powder room on the garden level?!?! Guests can just pee in the bar sink, I guess.
Yeah, bad design decisions overall.
I do like the heights though.

Posted by: Expert Textpert at August 25, 2009 2:07 PM

Beautiful house...It really doesn't bother me to see the formal dining room on the ground floor because you can also entertain your guest in the garden if you wanted to,but I have to agree a powder room on the ground floor would be nice!

Posted by: mysideofstuy at August 25, 2009 2:10 PM

It's easy to move the DR to the Parlour Level...you just move the furniture. That tacky bar has to go though.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 2:13 PM

putting a powder room into a place this size is easy and cheap.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 2:14 PM

To me it seems like the high-end brownstone market has hit an iceberg, and you all are talking about powder rooms.
Powder rooms? The ship is listing and taking in water, we should be discussing life preservers not powder rooms.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 25, 2009 2:18 PM

Apparently, 182 Clinton Street is an important site in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. http://bk.ly/tV

Posted by: Franz at August 25, 2009 2:21 PM

Mssr. Lafever...here is the 10 course menu from the Titanic:

http://www.armchair.com/recipe/titanic1.html

After 3 hours of that you will be discussing where the powder room is.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 2:21 PM

I disagree that the "high end of the brownstone market is really in bad shape" but it's certainly true that buyers are more fickle/demanding. Houses in the Heights, Cobble Hill, etc. have sold in recent months at higher prices so it just shows that idiosyncratic houses can sit in today's market. I've wondered for a while why this house hasn't moved; the layout isn't typical but in the boom market that wouldn't have mattered much. As the comments here show, it matters A LOT today.

Posted by: NorthHeights at August 25, 2009 2:23 PM

Amazing Franz. How the hell did you dig that up??? Reason enough to buy this place and have parties all the time.

I'd have a plaque made and put outside!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 2:24 PM

brickoven, I live on a quieter street. obv.

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 2:26 PM

We saw this house about a year and change ago. Was waaay over-priced at the time, and we thought they needed to come down about a half a million. I think however that there is a powder room on the garden floor. Not sure where (next to the kitchen?) but I recall there being a small powder room.

The home's kitchen and baths were outdated and it had one of those "prison yard" gardens. We also weren't too big on that particular street. While beautiful, a steady and relatively heavy stream of Manhattan bound traffic (hell, its what we always take coming home from Red Hook etc.) made it pretty much a deal breaker for us.

But it is a really beautiful and beautifully preserved home. Very elegant, well-proportioned rooms etc. And unfortunately, they were always chasing the market. I think they likely could have gotten 3.2 to 3.5 last year.

Posted by: Nokilissa at August 25, 2009 2:27 PM

The lack of toilet access for guests and the twin toilet setup tells me there is something very wrong with the latest remodel, more money than sense, or hidden S&M closet? Only a careful examination can tell. To keep with your Titanic analogy, it's the tip of the iceberg.

Posted by: Maly at August 25, 2009 2:27 PM

This house was on the BH tour a few years back and had an interesting history of the house and AA

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 2:28 PM

Buyers haven't heard of bjork moving close by

Posted by: bklplebe at August 25, 2009 2:31 PM

p.s. I think it was the home of Bill Wilson, and was the host home to the first AA meetings.

Posted by: Nokilissa at August 25, 2009 2:34 PM

menu from the Titanic, right. Keep an eye on the horizon while eating your crepes and caviar.

BTW, powder rooms in high-end residences are generally upstairs near the bedrooms which ladies can use to gossip in and adjust this and that, and where the sounds of gentlemen's streams do not drown out the conversation in the parlor.

In the 1830's during the height of my career, gentlemen guests used oriental vases to piss in, but I digress.....

Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 25, 2009 2:34 PM

Looking at the floorplan, it would appear that the price per SF is still relatively healthy at about $900 psf. Also, I think prospective buyers are somewhat dismayed by the fact that this house has a shallow lot of 70 feet plus is only a single family residency. Even rich people don't mind some rental income and the house would need some reconfiguration work plus a lot of aggrevation from DOB to change the C of O to a 2-family.

Posted by: TenaciousM at August 25, 2009 2:41 PM

anyway I think I may just have found a buyer for this at 2.5. Lets see if there bid hits

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 2:43 PM

I seem to remember from the tour that it was the childhood home of Bill W's wife and that maybe the couple lived here for a time and hosted early AA meetings here (or perhaps Oxford Group meetings?). Someone can google this I'm sure, but that's my vague memory.

Posted by: Ringo at August 25, 2009 2:49 PM

Agree on the 70 feet lot - the backyard is probably half the size of a typical Heights brownstone yard, and only 30 feet deep. And because it's 1 house in from the corner, it faces the side of a State St building and not another yard. Someone above wrote that it was like a "prison yard."

But disagree about the 1 family. I think that's a plus in the $3 million house market. "Even rich people don't mind some rental income" - yes, but in someone else's building, not their own house.

Posted by: NorthHeights at August 25, 2009 3:00 PM

pierre de taille --
what's the deal with the "we" in your comments? are there two people typing? are you referring to your left and right hands? as soon as i read we i skip the rest.

we strongly suggest you drop the pretext and change to first person singular.

Posted by: antidope at August 25, 2009 3:02 PM

Sometimes my right hand doesn't know what my left hand is doing.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 3:05 PM

we understand.

Posted by: antidope at August 25, 2009 3:07 PM

"I disagree that the "high end of the brownstone market is really in bad shape""....

Posted by: NorthHeights at August 25, 2009 2:23 PM

Well, NH, you are certainly allowed to disagree with reality if you like. Doesn't make you right. Pretty much common knowledge the ultra upper end market is under siege right now.

Greedy seller has now LOST, yes I said it, LOST hundreds of thousands of dollars by mis-pricing. 25% or something drop off original asking. Let's be kind and say had they originally priced 1/2 way between original ask and now, they probably sell quickly, and have moved on with their lives.

That sounds like $600K worth of lost profit and improved quality of life---A very wise word to the wise for today's delisters and stubborn sellers digging in their heels.

If people ain't buyin what yer sellin, you gonna have to lower the price. B/C they ain;t going to magically get more money in this economy.

But, I know, I know Team Bull, since the sellers bought it for 2 cents and a bag of beads in the 1800s, when it does sell, they didn't "lose" any money in this scenario, and it's *not* representative of a market decline if any one seller gets more than they originally paid.

LOL

Posted by: MoneyForNothing at August 25, 2009 3:32 PM

"asking price reduced twelve times"

Holy batshit! Only 988 cuts 'til death!

-29%. Yes, asking prices are inaccurate but not THAT inaccurate. Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 3:45 PM

Oh, one more observation...

The 25%ish haircut this one has taken (and still not sold) is remarkably consistent with the 25% haircuts we saw on the recent "6 month later" picks that actually sold.

Only difference is some of those 1.5M+ properties have a slightly larger buyer pool, so more support at the bottom.

So yes, indeed, the higher end is getting ugly. Along with everything else.

Posted by: MoneyForNothing at August 25, 2009 3:46 PM

"Well, NH, you are certainly allowed to disagree with reality if you like. Doesn't make you right. Pretty much common knowledge the ultra upper end market is under siege right now."

I wasn't basing my post on "common knowledge" or the other BS that passes for reality on Brownstoner, but on the comps recorded in ACRIS for May/June/July (which have often shown up on this site as "Last Week's Biggest Sales.")

I didn't say everything was hunky-dory and to the moon. Just that things are not in "really bad shape."

Forget asking prices - that's meaningless. Take a look at sold prices for 1 and 2 family homes or comparable-sized coops in Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill in 2007/2008 and compare to 2009, and then tell me if things are in "really bad shape" or simply levelled off from the froth.

Posted by: NorthHeights at August 25, 2009 3:47 PM

We saw it and can confirm there is a powder room on garden level next to kitchen where a closet is shown on floorplan. In addition to the poor pricing strategy I think the downer is the 80's style reno which leaves you with 20+ year old mechanicals, single pane windows, cheap-looking pine floors and built-ins on parlor floor, and the master suite taking an entire floor so just 3 real bedrooms. The garden level, top floor and yard worked OK for me. 169 Clinton St (which was cut up but MUCH bigger and with 2 or 3 parking spots) was asking $3.2m and a much bigger place on Sidney Place (quieter block) is asking around $3.5m from memory so this doesn't shout value to me at $3m, but I think it will go for close to that, maybe $2.8m...

Posted by: tricks73 at August 25, 2009 3:51 PM

NH- don't bother citing actual statistics to this crowd; they will always bash away about stupid buyers, dumb prices on the strong data AND absolutely hyperventilate on the anecdotal weak spots. like the saying goes, don't confuse them with the facts.

Posted by: antidope at August 25, 2009 3:52 PM

"A veritable steal @ just under 3 million."

For the sellers. Gimme the loot! Gimme the loot!

"The ship is listing and taking in water, we should be discussing life preservers not powder rooms."

Ha ha. Nice, Minard. Nice.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 3:54 PM

"...since the sellers bought it for 2 cents and a bag of beads in the 1800s, when it does sell, they didn't 'lose' any money..."

Grossly, MFN. But damn...they refi'd LTV back up to 100% and more (bloop bloop bloop...)! It wasn't just a housing boom.

"Forget asking prices - that's meaningless."

No no no no no. Asking prices are not meaningless. They are less meaningFUL than comps but NOT meaningless. As MFN alluded to, and as can be deduced by most languishing listings in general, your run-of-the-mill ask is within 10% of comps. That's an error of only 10%. Yeah, you'll have your over-the-top begs but most asks are halfway between peak and drop (generally agreed to be -20%, beltwide).

"Take a look at sold prices for 1 and 2 family homes or comparable-sized coops in Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill in 2007/2008 and compare to 2009, and then tell me if things are in 'really bad shape' or simply levelled off from the froth."

Take a look at the number of such sales. It has fallen off a cliff. A collapse in sales precedes a collapse in price. When sales pick up, you can be rest assured there'll be significant drops.

THE HIGH END OF THE BROWNSTONE MARKET IS REALLY IN BAD SHAPE.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 4:11 PM

...look at the foreclosures in the Hamptons. Fugeddaboutit!

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 4:14 PM

THE HIGH END OF THE BROWNSTONE MARKET IS REALLY IN BAD SHAPE.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 25, 2009 4:11 PM

And yet you still can't find one at half off peak comps!!!!

One can often sense the intellectual bankruptcy of your belief by the shrillness of your rhetoric.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 4:15 PM

I was in this house on a BHA house tour. It is huge and perfect. The garden is perfect the layout is perfect. If you like old houses, this one is a beauty. 2 or 3 years ago, this house would have sold for 4 million dollars. If this keeps up, houses may become affordable again in brownstone Brooklyn. Even in Brooklyn Heights! Who would have guessed it? Mind you, I don't think it is a bad thing. If this house sells for 2.5 million -that is still a lot, but we will need to re-adjust expectations especially in the partially-gentrified neibs.

Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 25, 2009 4:32 PM

One can often sense the intellectual bankruptcy of your belief by the shrillness of your rhetoric.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 4:15 PM

Love that Benson quote.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 25, 2009 4:32 PM

Some bulls are spoiling for a fight today, but aren't these simply the facts: The most unique places have sold, presumably to people in the artificially buoyed financial sector, and the run-of-the-mill places haven't found buyers, or are taking substantial cuts. Doesn't this conform to what everyone knows anecdotally about the labor market and the NYC economy? The recession may be ending, but with super sluggish growth and high unemployment, who is buying meh brownstones at toppy prices anymore? You don't think everything but the finest properties are still going down? Then go ahead and call a bottom. I keep daring you to do it but you refuse. Why? because there isn't a house for sale in the borough I can't get for less in six months, and you and I both know it.

Posted by: Whuh at August 25, 2009 4:42 PM

Brickoven, the traffic on Clinton St. is some of the worst in the Heights. There is a non-stop stream of cars virtually all day and much of the night. It is a major thoroughfare from points south to the Brooklyn Bridge, and also a shortcut from the BQE to both Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges. Compared to the mostly quiet streets of Brooklyn Heights, living on Clinton requires a tolerance for the noise, commotion and soot of traffic.

Posted by: punko at August 25, 2009 4:44 PM

Punko: you mean they are letting cars drive through the streets now? My God, what next? Trucks?

Posted by: Minard Lafever at August 25, 2009 4:49 PM

Punko it is a through street and not a side street granted but I do not think this is a noisey block at all and I live about 2 blocks off of it. I think this is one of the best blocks and If the price went to 2 million by next summer I might have to do something stupid.

Posted by: brickoven at August 25, 2009 4:52 PM

If they don't sell, then it's not a decline!! Beautiful logic.

Nothings leveled off NH if units are not selling. Those that are are fetching about 25% below peak comps within 1+ year.

Hate to break it, but even normal real estate crashes STATISTICALLY take much longer than 1 year to level off...a 5 year proposition typically.

Honestly, why are we even really having this discussion?

Until the "Open House Picks: 6 Months after" start being 3/4 sold upon return and are within 5% below latest ask, we all know where we're headed with this.

Posted by: MoneyForNothing at August 25, 2009 5:04 PM

"...because there isn't a house for sale in the borough I can't get for less in six months, and you and I both know it."

Posted by: Whuh at August 25, 2009 4:42 PM

Thank you.

Posted by: MoneyForNothing at August 25, 2009 5:07 PM

I'd like to point out this place is right off Atlantic Avenue.

Call me squeamish, but for 3 million clams, no thanks. At least if I'm someone with money to burn looking for an over the top 3 million dollar home, that's what I'm thinking.

Posted by: MoneyForNothing at August 25, 2009 5:08 PM

I used to live around the corner on Remsen between Court Henry + Clinton and agree with posters who say the street traffic is negative for this house. That stretch of Clinton gets a high volume of traffic heading to the Brooklyn Bridge, and traffic is often bumber to bumper. I also agree with posters who see the single family house as a postive. 1 rental at $3,000 per month could cover about $500K of mortgage. I'd rather have a single family for $1.5 million than a triplex + rental for $2.0 mm.

As for for the comment at 3:32 - if you sell something for more than you bought it for - you made money. At least that's what accounting textbooks and the IRS say. If there is an opportunity cost standard applied for not selling at or near peak, the same standard applies to potential buyers if they wait to buy and have to pay more because prices went up. Looked at that way, I've lost millions. I think I looked at 50-75 houses between 2000 and 2002, before buying in 2003. Even with the correction, most of the house I looked at would for a higher price today.

Posted by: Boerum Hill at August 25, 2009 5:20 PM

PRICES OF BROWNSTONES WILL BOTTOM THIS YEAR, WHUH. I'M CALLING IT. THAT MEANS BETWEEN NOW AND DEC 31.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 25, 2009 5:28 PM

"we strongly suggest you drop the pretext and change to first person singular"
antidope you don't have to read our comments as you've pointed out yourself. As soon as we see antidope we expect nothing of substance.... from your left and right cerebrum.

Posted by: pierre de taille at August 25, 2009 7:37 PM

Wow, that's a pretty gutsy call, Dave. That's practically tomorrow. Given the seasonal nature of real estate, I'll guess prices of brownstones in Brooklyn will start going up in the spring.

MoneyForNothing, prices bottomed in two years during the '89 crash. Then they were flat for many years.

Does anyone else find it amusing that the same people on here who say the ghetto (their name for Bed Stuy) is the first to fall and the last to recover are the same people who claim New York is "behind" the rest of the U.S.?

The crash started here in 2006 just like it did everywhere else. We are two years in. So we could be close to a bottom. We might not get much further than 20 to 25 percent off Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. Remember, everyone always says "prime" neighborhoods like those are the last to fall and the first to recover.

Posted by: mopar at August 25, 2009 10:49 PM

I know you've all been in bed for two hours already ;), but maybe some insomniac or early riser will see my question. It's about the floors. A poster who's been in the house called them "cheap-looking pine floors."

Were the floors in a grander house like this originally pine? If so, would it be proper to redo them with a hardwood, or proper -- preservationist -- to keep the original pine?

Posted by: Nomi at August 25, 2009 11:28 PM

Hi Nomi --

Maybe the "cheap-looking pine floors" are new replacement floors?

Though it's true some houses built in the mid-1800s had not-so-great wood floors that weren't meant to show because they would be covered in wall-to-wall carpet.

Posted by: mopar at August 26, 2009 1:02 PM

182 Clinton Street is where AA started, period. After Bill Wilson had his spiritual experience at Towns Hospital he was bringing drunks to this house for 6 months prior to meeting Dr. Bob, and the official start of AA, June 15th 1935. It is the family home of Lois Wilson (maiden name Burnham) Bill's wife and the co-founder of Al-Anon Family Groups.
I would not be surprised if who ever has been in this house has heard from AA Pilgrims. :)

Posted by: courtautomation at September 10, 2009 10:34 AM

« Greetings From The Big Island Streetlevel: Traif Bike Gesheft »

August 25, 2009

House of the Day: 182 Clinton Street

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