House of the Day: 439 East 19th Street

Kitchen? Baths? Condition?

LOVE the original detail on the interior, great cedar shake exterior. 19th Street in DP is a great block, even if a little too close to Flatbush Ave., a little too far from PPS. Houses on 19th street are prime, from an architectural standpoint. Best DP proper has to offer.

I would pay 1.2 for this house now, if the kitchen and baths are not up to par. I would pay full price if house is mint. It's reasonable, even given the current market. What this house has to offer is unique. Preserved detail like that is priceless. It would have fetched upward of 1.5 two years ago.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 2:01 PM

I agree, if you can afford private school tuition for your kids, or are remarkable adroit at playing the NYC public school game. Depends on number of kids and pure energy levels.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 2:03 PM

I agree with Xris. This house, given what it has to offer, is priced appropriately for this market. Still would like to know what the kitchen/baths have to offer. Even if they need reno, this would be only about $50k, off, and, who knows, maybe the sellers know someone will low-ball and are really only looking for 1.2 million. I know someone in the DP area who used this stratgy about a year ago and off-loaded their house in about a week - just before the market started to seriously tank. People always say don't over price your house - but I think if you aren't grossly over-pricing it and know someone will low-ball you, a slight over-pricing can sell your house in a heart beat.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 3:02 PM

I actually love Pelham, and that's one of the neighborhoods we considered when we were forced for flee Brooklyn due to circumstances beyond our control. The houses stock is very similar to DP and there's a great little shopping area. Super quick into mid-town... When we moved upstate, I was also shocked to find that we ended up tax-neutral as well. That 3 percent NYC tax adds up to more than you might expect. I still miss Brooklyn, but like bklyndoug says, it's a trade off.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 3:06 PM

Just to play devil's advocate, 11217, what about quality of education. As someone who played the public school game with many children covering a span of many years, I can say with authority that it's getting tougher and tougher to position your kids in one of the top public elementary schools, and MS is a trade-off either in terms of quality of life or quality of education. Fewer families can actually afford homes in the zoned areas for top schools... Others try to improve local schools, as we did, but never reap the desired results across the board. Variances are getting harder and harder o come by, if not impossible. Sibling variances are soon to be a thing of the past... I love many things about a NYC education - diversity, independence, sophistication, cultural exposure - all fab. Over crowded classrooms, endless prepping for state exams, drastically limited phys ed programs, lock-down middle school campuses, less than $3000 spent per pupil, one of my beautiful and bright enough kids getting shunted to seriously crappy ms due to the lottery, and nothing much I could do about it? Sucks. Plain and Simple. $24K taxes in Westchester - still cheaper than private school (and it covers an endless stream of kids per family). Do I love the $27k per pupil spending in my district? 14-20 kids in a classroom? Endless outdoor and athletic opportunities? State of the art facilities, including nature walks, ceramic studios, tennis courts, etc... You bet.

But here's the catch - would I have traded the plusses of a city education if I hadn't been forced to due to job issues? Probably not. We would have never left Brooklyn. Would my kids have suffered? Probably not? But do I feel slightly selfish about that choice, now that we're actually up there and I see what they're getting? You bet. It's a complex argument, whatever side you take.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 3:52 PM

Beautiful in that all children are beautiful in spirit and deserve better than some of the crappy educations that are forced on NYC public school kids.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:04 PM

No child deserves to have their soul crushed due to an absolutely awful educational experience, although perhaps some would argue otherwise...

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:06 PM

11217, I hear you, and I'm just playing devil's advocate.

But let me just share this with you. I grew up in an almost all-white, mind-numbingly dull suburb. I swore up and down that I would NEVER leave a city center. I spent the past 20 years living in central London, Manhattan, finally Brooklyn. My husband and I were in 100 percent agreement that we would never leave. We would fight to make the system work for our kids, and it did for some of them, if not for others... But still, we never thought about moving.

Then there was something called the recession. Feeding our children mandated that we relocate. We had no choice. For the first time in our lives, we were forced to leave our beloved urban dwelling. Now, I hope this never happens to you, but honestly, it could. Anything can happen. No one truly knows what the future holds. It's great to have ideals, but sometimes they are compromised.

Being forced to move to a semi-rural (not really suburban) Westchester community has been a huge shock to the system. Would I move back to Brooklyn? I might. But now, in contrast to when I lived in Brookly, I have a nagging guilt about forcing my kids back into NYC public schools. I argued for years that NYC schools were not inferior, what they offered was superior to anything suburbia had to offer, in a nut-shell, we thought we were BETTER. We thought we were too good to live in the suburbs. We denied that our children might possibly be suffering on some level because of our refusal to leave the city. Maybe, to be a little kinder to ourselves, we didn't even realize it. Until we got out here and couldn't deny what are kids were getting, educationally.

I'm still in mourning for the sophistication, fredom, cultural exposure, interactions, experiences, etc... that are truly only the domain of the city child. And that is all I ever imagined for my children from the day they were born. Part of me would love to give that back to them... And then I think of what I would have to take away... and I just can't do that either. There is no escape, no matter where I raise them now. There is no perfect world. From my perspective, in terms of my children, neither Brookyn nor Bedford is a clear winner.

So wherever life takes you, 11217, and any future little ones, I wish you the best... Make the most of wherever you are, whenever you are.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:18 PM

Sorry, Sloper, I mean, do you have just one child so you can afford your urban lifestyle? No judgement being passed at all, just curious if that is part of your plan, your way of balancing your needs and the child's.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:21 PM

Sloper sounds like you played the game and won - bought in a prime location when it was way cheaper, limited yourself to one child, could afford the private school option... If I had been inclined to stop at just one child, I would have done exactly as you did.

I think Maplewood's point is, however, that once you have more than one child, things become much more complicated when you try to raise then in an urban environment, at least if you're not seriously well-off. I was committed to raising a large brood in the city - only when I was forced to go over to the other side was I forced to confront the upside to raising a larger family outside of the city.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:39 PM

Sorry Sloper - our posts crossed!

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:40 PM

Everything else aside, I love this house and makes me yearn to return to DP! Still, I am in no condition to do another kitchen/multiple bathroom reno... Will take years to recover emotionally!

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 4:43 PM

It really is the larger family issue... When my older ones fly the coop, we may well return with just the little one (far younger than the others) in tow. But at that point, I would be following Sloper's model.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 5:00 PM

I must have been upstate for too long. I thought the swallow quote was quite lovely, in the purest sense! But then again, I now actually see swallows, so perhaps my point of reference has expanded ;)

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 5:35 PM

God I love that fireplace.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 5:36 PM

Trust me - there is no "perfect."

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 6:31 PM

If my kids were at Stuyvesant, I would buy this house. Express bus from Cortelyou Road. That would be a sweet set up. I know many 70s-80s DP residents who were lucky enough to have this set up.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 5, 2009 7:44 PM

One of my kids attended 51, and I can say that even before I moved to Westchester, I found it disappointing, academically (not to mention the fact that the physical structure is truly depressing). Of course my kid loved the freedom of "out to lunch," although not so sure I did. Now that my children are actually attending Northern Westchester suburban schools, I find the fact that 51 is hyped as a "one of the better middle schools" pretty pathetic. Middle School in Brooklyn is the most difficult hurdle. Things pick up in HS, but you have to really bit the bullet if you are opting for public MS. Ride it out and hope for the best. Anyone expecting a 321 academic experience (which I rank with the best) from 51 will be sorely disappinted, or will just turn a blind eye and delude themselves. Of course, I would have done just that if we hadn't had to more out of the city...

As for Great Schools - rankings are totally subjective. I would never choose a school for my child based on that site. Quite frankly, when we looked for schools in Westchester, I looked at hard data (College admissions, test scores, $ spent per child, classroom numbers, teachers with advanced degrees, after school programs, etc....), not to mention visits to campuses (yes, campuses!) and checking out the vibe of the schools in question. We ended up tax neutral, as the Maplewood poster also stated in his case. I thought we'd be paying through the nose, but I was wrong. $20k sounds like a lot, but NYC taxes go along way to balancing out the equation (especially if you have an S-Corp).

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 8:45 AM

Also, Pelham really is only about an 18 minute ride into mid-town. Sorry, but it's true. I love Brooklyn, but since I've been banished, I'm in a position to post it like it is.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 8:47 AM

Gfan -

I had three kids in Brooklyn MS as of last year. Those are recent oberservations.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 12:24 PM

Gfan -

I had three kids in Brooklyn MS as of last year. Those are recent observations.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 12:24 PM

I've tried to respond to the above posts several times, but they were too long and my computer ate them! Yes, my daugher's ELA class in MS has 14 kids. Her most crowded class has 22. Many have 18/19.

My kids attended 3 different Brooklyn MS in 2008. I speak from recent experience. No way you can compare 51 to the MS my daughter attends now. It comes down to money. 2/3rds of my taxes (which are hefty) go to local schools. Spending here is 27k per child. In Brooklyn, it's around 4k. Teachers are great in both places, but you just can't have the same sort of programs, facilities, etc.. without funding.
Kids in MS can take Mandarin if they choose. Not just Spanish. One Brooklyn school my child attended didn't even offer languages. I could go on and on... But I won't.

Had we not been forced to leave Brooklyn, I would never have known what they were missing. Ignorance is bliss. If I knew all my MS kids would end up at Hunter or Stuy for HS, I'd bite the bullet. But most kids don't get there, even from the better MS. One of my kids got into all the "top" Brooklyn middle schools - Twain, Hudde CIG, 51- I had serious issues with all of them. MS is just flat out better in the suburbs... Elementary and HS? Depends.

10 and 12 year olds should not have to battle for spots in decent MS, but that's life in Brooklyn. Yes, I miss the city, but would I drag my kids back now? No. Not until the older ones have flown the nest. At that point I suspect we will return with the little one (big gap) in tow - and we will follow Sloper's model. Private school. I guess that's the answer - As much as I love city life, if I can't afford private school, then I won't bring my kids back.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 12:57 PM

For CGFAN and BKNY:

http://www.westchestermagazine.com/Westchester-Magazine/January-2003/Evaluating-Westchesters-Public-High-Schools/

From 2007 Westchester Mag (spending for 2008 was significantly higher, oddly enough, at least according to our recent budget proposal)

Class Size
Class size is commonly used to determine the quality of a school. The smaller the class size, the bigger the impact the teacher can have, says Ed Lichtenfeld, an adjunct professor at Iona College. This is the standard Terence Peavy, director of Admissions at the Eugene Lang College-New School University lean(s) toward when judging a high school, because, he explains, small classes allow the exchange of ideas, not just the regurgitation of facts and statistics.

In Westchester this year, the smallest average class sizes were found at Fox Lane High (16), Pleasantville (16), Walter Panas (16.4), Dobbs Ferry (17), Briarcliff (18) and Irvington (18). We're very sensitive to class size, says Robert Maher, Briarcliff High School's principal. We even run classes when they shrink below ten students.

But here again, forces beyond a district's control such as budgetary constraints, contractual arrangements with faculty, and increasing enrollment¡ªmay make small class size a difficult goal to achieve. And once again, money helps. ¡°Some communities are willing to pay for the additional teachers needed to keep class size lower, says Stephen Falcone, principal of Fox Lane High School in Bedford.

Student Expenditure
In most cases, the richer the school district, the more it can spend on children. If that money is spent wisely, there is no doubt it can help. As a general rule, Gillette of Yale's Teacher Preparation program says, the more money spent, the better. To support his point, he notes that schools in Maine, Alaska and Connecticut, which spend more on education than schools in all other states, each year outperform schools in all other states. No parent will go seek a school that knowingly spends less, Gillette says.

The schools that spent the most on their students this year were Scarsdale ($19,098), White Plains High School ($18,480), Fox Lane ($18,417) and Briarcliff ($18,000).

But beware! How much a school spends on a child can be affected by such non-curricular expenses as security, transportation, construction, etc... And some expenditures may be low because the school has few non-curricular expenses. For example, non-bussing school districts like Pleasantville tend to have low student expenditures because they save money on transportation.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 1:53 PM

Hi Bklyndoug - If we still had a Manhattan commute, Pelham would have been a definite choice for us. However, our move was dictated by a job offer in CT... Just too much of a commute from Brooklyn (we tried it for 6 months...). Northern Westchester was a quick hop, skip and a jump from Greenwich on backroads - we ended up in Pound Ridge. Very beautiful, but a tad isolated and that much further out. Pelham seems to me like a great alternative for Brooklynites, expecially DP types who love that sort of period architecture... still see your neighbors, fantastic schools, nice shopping, so close to Manhattan! I'm envious!

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 5:56 PM

Ringo -

Can't beat Pound Ridge elementary. Talk about idyllic. Gorgous new library with rotunda, playing fields, etc... They actually have to keep snow boots and bibs at school so they can go sledding in the winter!

Since we were limited to the Northern Westchester/Fairfield area, we opted for more space (3.5 acres, pool, etc...) instead if something more neighborhoodish, although I miss sidewalks, walking to shops, etc., which you can have in a place like Pelham or Irvington. I also think taking care of the property is a real chore (landscapers charge astronomical rates, but there's no getting around hiring leaf guys in the fall....). My husband, however, doesn't seem to mind it, so I suppose I shouldn't either :) It is amazingly beautiful. Sometimes I look out the window and think I'm living in the middle of Prospect Park (in the wee morning hours, before people actually arrive...).

My youngest will be attending PR elementary in a few years. I have kids at Fox Lane, too, and am very satisfied. There is actually some cultural diversity there, too, as Mt. Kisc is also zoned for Bedford Central School District.

If you want land and don't care about the commute (it's over an hour to mid-town and parking is tough), it's great. If you live in Bedford Village or Bedford Hills you can get on the waiting list for a parking spot there.

You can always get a spot in Stamford if you only have to be in the city now and then. About 20-25 minute drive from PR. Everything in PR is minimum 2 acres zoning. Nice public pool complex with incredibly cheap day camp (less than $500 for SIX WEEKS). Also building brand spanking new community center which will be an asset. Local food shopping is no worse than the city pricewise and you can get all your basics and indulgences in PR. Target and things over in Mt. Kisco. New Canaan is 15 minutes away and has lots of shopping, restaurants, as is Ridgefield, also very lovely. The Lewisboro School District (The Salems, Katonah) is also excellent, and lots of land around there, too.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 7:35 PM

Also, the door-to-door school bus can't be beat. As much as I miss city life, not having to schlep a multitude of kids to a bunch of different schools has, in some, way given me my life back.

Posted by: Architerrorist at August 6, 2009 7:42 PM