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August 24, 2009
Bed-Stuy: 'Experiencing a Little Bit of a Depression'?
The New York Times took a look at Bedford-Stuyvesant this weekend as an area once considered one of the roughest in the city, but one with a rich cultural history where you can now smell gentrification in the air, mainly via the fragrance of higher-end retail. More interesting than the article's notes on gentrification is how it touches on current home values in Bed-Stuy: "'We’re actually experiencing a little bit of a depression,' said Tanya Blackwood, owner of Location Location Location, a real estate agency. 'We’re back to where people are undervaluing houses—it’s just bananas.' The neighborhood’s size makes it difficult to narrow down a price range for houses, but livable two-families generally start around $600,000, said Keith Mack of the Corcoran Group. A house in great shape, he said, might fetch $875,000. (Houses in the historic district still command a little more, but there are very few listed.) A perusal of Web sites like PropertyShark.com shows houses trading at or below $600,000. 'I could’ve given you a general price point a year ago,' said Lakeisha Edwards, a broker at Prudential Douglas Elliman. 'But it’s now really property by property; in between those are so many short sales and foreclosures.'" Agree?
History, With Hipper Retailing in Bed-Suy [NY Times]
Photos by nvrlowdown
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Comments
Dibs is going to be on this sh#t like aahh...white on rice so to speak.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at August 24, 2009 10:42 AM
"I told ya couple times that the Gods must be crazy
But ya didn't listen, so now ya on a mission"
- Lord Jamar Brand Nubian.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at August 24, 2009 10:44 AM
'We’re back to where people are undervaluing houses—it’s just bananas.
Not sure what that means exactly!!!
Apparently the What didn't see the sentence about "sanitizing."
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:46 AM
bananas. now i have that terrible gwen stefani song stuck in my head. and i too dont understand what her point is. just because you think your house is worth a million dollars doesnt make it so. it's like crazy stoop sale nutcases who think their beat up crappy copy of pac man for the atari 2600 is worth 50 bux or something.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at August 24, 2009 10:49 AM
I don't know if that "depression" is specific to Bed-Stuy... isn't everybody's property pretty much "under-valued" right now (esp compared to the frenzied prices of several years ago)?? I honestly don't see much difference in the general area since I moved there 2 years ago; except that the building boom seems generally over which is something to be grateful for since most of the stuff they were building was pretty crappy.
Posted by: herkimermaid at August 24, 2009 10:53 AM
I had just finished reading the article and thought "oh that was interesting. Seemed like a positive PR piece for the neighborhood." Then I come on to Brownstoner and the title you guys pulled out is "Bed - STuy Experiencing a little bit of a depression" ???????
How, WHy, WHAAAT
Posted by: bedstuy11216 at August 24, 2009 10:55 AM
yeah that is a bit crazy thing to say when there are houses all over Brooklyn that are back to 2001 prices.
Posted by: Amzi Hill at August 24, 2009 10:55 AM
Unless Asshats are going to come to buy and keep prices high, I don't want them taking up seats at Peaches & Saraghina. :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 11:00 AM
For those of you who dont read the times this was not a very flattering article considering the drivel they usually put in this section of "if youre thinking of living in .................."
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 11:03 AM
herkimer, where you been? Haven't seen you in the OT, so I e-mailed you the other day, but I'm not sure if you got it.
Posted by: CarrollGardened at August 24, 2009 11:11 AM
Not to belabor a point but jscheff seems to make a point of being less than enthusiastic or knowledgeable about certain neighborhoods.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 11:12 AM
I think the issue is that neighborhoods that are in the process of gentrifying tend to take a harder hit when housing declines versus the less dramatic slide is neighborhoods that are more established in terms of pricing.
Posted by: CG_ups at August 24, 2009 11:15 AM
I totally agree with bedstuy11216. I read this yesterday and thought it was a bit better than the wide eyed fluff that usually accompanies NYT articles about Bed Stuy. The article talked about the positive aspects of Lewis Ave, the affordability (relatively) of houses, and the important and overlooked fact that Bed Stuy is extremely large and can't be codified or boiled down to one statistic or price range, or one anything else.
I figured Brownstoner would run with this story, I am disappointed jscheff went with this angle on it. This is the third disappointing take on central Brooklyn nabes - Italian girl condo today, Crown Heights Art Scene last week, and this. Ignorance is not bliss.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 24, 2009 11:27 AM
To bedstuy 11216
I definitely came away from that article with an acute sense that the market is real soft in Bed Stuy. Usually these are fluff pieces where the writer sees no flaws, however, the mention of the drop in prices and the quotes were definitely more negative than normally the case and seemed to highlight that Bed Stuy is suffering more tham most.
Posted by: doldrums at August 24, 2009 11:28 AM
fair enough CG_ups but over the past 2 years, while things have slowed down significantly, Bed-Stuy's quality of life has far from declined. Things are still opening up, albeit slower perhaps than if we were still swept up in a RE frenzy. As far as I'm concerned the slowdown is a benefit in that the people moving to the 'hood (and they still are, just not in droves) are doing so because they genuinely like the community and want to be there.
Posted by: herkimermaid at August 24, 2009 11:40 AM
MM - I thought of you while I was reading it yesterday - that they'd've been well advised to have you consult on the piece if not write the entire article.
Posted by: Arkady at August 24, 2009 11:42 AM
I cant remember them ever being even a little negative on where they are writing about. Can you name an area where they were this negative? Why did they bother
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 11:42 AM
hi herki, I should've been clearer in my original comment. I meant that pricing declines are steeper, not necessarily quality of life declines. From the various people on the board, we can see that Bed Stuy has a lot of great things to offer and seems like a nice place to live. I have to get to Saraghina before it gets any more online reviews. :)
Posted by: CG_ups at August 24, 2009 11:49 AM
"We’re back to where people are undervaluing houses..."
No, sweetie. We're VALUING houses. And to do so, we have to go bungee jumping. Weeeeeee!
Sniff sniff. I smell fear.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 24, 2009 11:53 AM
DIBS, I noticed the "sanitizing" comment and it didn't sit right with me.
I thought the article was fine, but I had forgotten about the way the Times fluffs things up. Gosh, so they must really hate Bed Stuy if they're being this realistic.
Posted by: rh at August 24, 2009 11:56 AM
BTW, like "subprime", depression contagion is coming to a zipcode near you.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 24, 2009 11:56 AM
I actually didn't think the article was all that negative. Bed Stuy is an extremely large area and very, very diverse in the quality of the housing stock.
I'm not sure what a really spectacular property would go for now. There haven't been any on the market since those two limestones on the 400 block of Stuyvesant sold...one to Babs Corcoran. There is a lot of stuff always on the market that needs a complete gut rehab.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 12:00 PM
CG_ups, again, a good point. I think the thing I liked about the NY Times article is that it talks sincerely about a community which remains strong and engaging despite the slowdown. I can't say enough how i hope that people moving to the area do so because they value the history and community, not because it's prey for opportunists (which actually i don't think is a huge issue where Bed-Stuy is concerned, it's too well defined). So in that sense I think the Times piece is actually OK.
Posted by: herkimermaid at August 24, 2009 12:10 PM
"I actually didn't think the article was all that negative."
Naw, just price movement.
"There is a lot of stuff always on the market that needs a complete gut rehab."
But but but I thought inventory was limited. Tha tha tha they said that no one's building any more land.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 24, 2009 12:10 PM
Isn't it incredible that BHO knows everything about every neighborhood???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 12:14 PM
When I saw the quote of the Billy Joel lyrics in the first paragraph I thought "Not again!"
People's preconceived notions of the neighorhood are going to be around for a long time, so that Billy Joel lyric and crime stats will be part of the Bed-Stuy story for now. I don't agree with that, but it is part of what the general public knows and this article just panders to some of it.
It would have been nice if they could have put more on the history of the nighborhood. The one or two sentences they did put in there are certainly not enough.
Posted by: Miss Chiff at August 24, 2009 12:15 PM
We're discussing Bed Stuy, DIBS. Please stay on topic.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at August 24, 2009 12:17 PM
I think almost every neighborhood is undergoing a reality check- and I se no insult in saying prices are down because they are. But they are down everywhere. I didn't find the article itself negative but jscheff's re-titling above is yet another misbegotten attempt to prove he's sophisticated and knowledgeable about Brooklyn. Maybe he is, but I can only assume it extends no further than Bklyn Hgts or Park Slope. I don't mind a certain amount of editorializing, but jeesh. At least editorialize what you know something about.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 12:17 PM
Jscheff lives in Ft. Greene.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 12:19 PM
"I cant remember them ever being even a little negative on where they are writing about. Can you name an area where they were this negative? Why did they bother"
I was going to post and wonder why they never seem to write about any other neighborhoods other than ones in Brooklyn - when was the last time you saw an article about Gramercy Park or College Point?
But it's pointless to act like the Times is on the leading edge of this, whatever the topic here really is. B'stoner and other blogs (where are you, other blogs) are the ones with the insider story. Two things to remember: insider stories translate very differently in mainstream circles; and B'stoner is not beholden to the ideas published in ANY place else (meaning, we can comment where we want but let's not get bent out of shape over just the usual).
Posted by: infinitejester at August 24, 2009 12:19 PM
I'm obsessed with this place:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/604-halsey-street-brooklyn
which my better half is less impressed with. If you're looking in Bed Stuy, this is worth checking out.
Posted by: serpentor at August 24, 2009 12:20 PM
serpentor: This is my block. Why are you obsessed with this place? (Please tell me it is not the purple/pink walls.) What are your better half's concerns?
Posted by: Miss Chiff at August 24, 2009 12:30 PM
just my 2¢, regarding the original post, I think it's deliberately provocative, as many of them are, designed to generate a heated debate. Whoever he is, jscheff is a master puppeteer!
Posted by: herkimermaid at August 24, 2009 12:38 PM
I think the Times saw Saraghina opening as a big change in the neighborhood, and decided to write a piece. The story seems to be the correction to the yuppie spaceship article people on this board have been saying they want. Especially in its comment that the area is huge and encompasses many neighborhoods.
The real estate agent's estimates of housing prices seem disingenous and way too high. Prices on regular (non foreclosed) properties have come down about 20 percent just like everywhere else. There's no special housing crash in Bed Stuy. But it is for sure full of more REOs than the "prime" areas the NYT usually writes about.
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 12:49 PM
Speaking of Babs Corcoran, has anyone else seen that new reality show (on Sunday nights) called Shark Tank yet?!?
I caught a bit of it last night and she comes across as incredibly NOT business savvy compared to the rest of the bunch.
Posted by: 11217 at August 24, 2009 12:52 PM
Many new businesses are opening up and it seems a lot of people are buying houses in the area -- the volume of purchases is up compared to other neighborhoods, I think -- so it seems to me the area is quite healthy and doing well and only getting better, not in a "depression."
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 12:52 PM
Babs Corcoran is DUMB!
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 12:56 PM
Brickoven, that may be so, but Babs did AT LEAST sell her company for 300 million dollars, owns like 5 or 6 properties, and you rent an apartment in Brooklyn Heights. But sure, she's dumb.
But in terms of this particular television show, I think she needs to stick with real estate.
Posted by: 11217 at August 24, 2009 12:59 PM
did we really need the nyt to validate that bed stuy (and other speculative "rough" areas) would get hammered the most? I think at this point 90% of even the ignoramus population knows this. Yeah, we have delusional morons like Dibs who argue otherwise, but we've only seen the beginning..
Posted by: cornerbodega at August 24, 2009 1:01 PM
11217 I owned a place in Manhattan and sold it in 2006, I rent now and I would not even think of buying something until 2011-2012. People like you have a long road ahead. What year did you buy in?
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 1:11 PM
Corner, did you even read the article?
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 1:12 PM
Brickoven:
According to you the other day you are 32 years old now and you're telling me that you SOLD your Manhattan apartment when you were 29? How long exactly did you own it for?
I call bullshit.
Posted by: 11217 at August 24, 2009 1:20 PM
"Many new businesses are opening up and it seems a lot of people are buying houses in the area -- the volume of purchases is up compared to other neighborhoods, I think -- so it seems to me the area is quite healthy and doing well and only getting better, not in a 'depression.'"
I very much agree with mopar on this. In spite of foreclosures an economic downturn,Bed Stuy is experiencing positive growth. This is what we needed, more realistic pricing, enabling slow, positive growth across the spectrum, not the mega-million dollars houses artificially throwing the entire market upward where no one who wanted to live here could afford it, and few who could afford it wanted to live here.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 24, 2009 1:22 PM
And why exactly would you sell your Manhattan apartment in 2006 when prices continued to skyrocket until 2008?
Talk about dumb.
Posted by: 11217 at August 24, 2009 1:22 PM
"There haven't been any on the market since those two limestones on the 400 block of Stuyvesant sold...one to Babs Corcoran."
Yeah, yeah. Keep talking your book DIBS. Maybe if you and Babs clap loud enough Tinkerbell will come back to life.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 1:29 PM
11217 I sold it as soon as I made the 250,000 on it! Never had any regrets. I know I got lucky
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 1:31 PM
yawn, did somebody say something?
Posted by: herkimermaid at August 24, 2009 1:33 PM
Sounds like you got scared BO, not lucky.
We clearly don't have the same idea about home. I bought mine to live in, not flip for profit.
Posted by: 11217 at August 24, 2009 1:35 PM
Despite what has happened to the housing market, I feel Bed Stuy is doing well. Special houses priced right are selling fairly quickly.
It took me more then two years and heavy ass kissing to finally get the home I really wanted. I purchased this year and didnt get the deal of the century, and the house needs a gut reno. But I love the house, love the neighborhood, love my neighbors. What's going on in Bed Stuy right now reminds me of Fort Greene in the early Nineties, but I was too young to even think about owning a home. Prices needed to come down to reality so residents that have a been a positive influence turning the neighborhood around can afford to stay.
Posted by: Crooklyn at August 24, 2009 1:51 PM
"livable two-families generally start around $600,000" - doesn't sound so cheap or retreat too much in prices
(considering size of BedStuy and varied prices/quality of homes/blocks in such vast area).
Posted by: Petebklyn at August 24, 2009 1:58 PM
Those price quotes from the agents are inflated.
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 2:17 PM
Yuppie Spaceship article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/nyregion/27gentrify.html?pagewanted=print
People said it didn't represent Bed Stuy.
Here's a recent one I hadn't seen about a hat seller who says white people are moving into Bed Stuy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/nyregion/09metjournal.html?pagewanted=1
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 2:37 PM
"There haven't been any on the market since those two limestones on the 400 block of Stuyvesant sold...one to Babs Corcoran."
Yeah, yeah. Keep talking your book DIBS. Maybe if you and Babs clap loud enough Tinkerbell will come back to life.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 1:29 PM
WOW, What an Asshole. Did you even understand the sentence???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 2:39 PM
There's been a little bit of unnecessary swearing back and forth today. Please, let's keep the discussion civil. No?
I'm glad to hear that (possibly due to lower prices) houses are selling in Bed-Stuy. I just hope what is selling is not forclosed houses at a huge discount.
I think we should listen to Mon'Rose and David a little bit since they actually live in Bed-Stuy.
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at August 24, 2009 3:02 PM
A great example of the issues is the house that was open last week on bainbridge. It had a fantastic brownstone & redstone (?) exterior yet the interior was somewhat "troublesome." Yes, great block and great facade but behind that, not much. Those are the most delusional sellers in my opinion.
The two limestones were fantastic on the inside and fetched $1.1 MM each +/-. There hasn't been anything comparable since early 2008.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:07 PM
Dave,
Yes, I understood the sentence. Subtext - the good properties don't trade, but last time they did a certain special someone expressed their confidence in Bed Stuy in the form of a mansion purchase (psst - I hear Goldman is in the crowd using wedbush as their give up buying heavy).
I'm sick, which is why I am online at this hour (damn HR), so forgive the tone. However, I see you on this site 9-5 telling everyone who'll listen how happy you are to have the majority of your net worth tied up in Brooklyn real estate. If you weren't so deeply invested in Brooklyn real estate, and were all cash, would you purchase right now? I bet you'd wait till someone had to hit your, much lower, bid.
But hey, gotta keep selling the dream that you already bought.
- pause for your "I have so much money I don't care" response.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 3:25 PM
See, isn't it better not to have to throw in swear words?
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at August 24, 2009 3:27 PM
"However, I see you on this site 9-5 telling everyone who'll listen how happy you are to have the majority of your net worth tied up in Brooklyn real estate. If you weren't so deeply invested in Brooklyn real estate, and were all cash, would you purchase right now?"
If you see me on this site 9-5 then you'd know that the majority of my net worth is not tied up in Brooklyn real estate. With a 45% LTV, I'd say about 15% of my net worth is in my Bed Stuy house. I have three other homes of which only one has a mortgage, and a small one at that.
If I were all cash I would definitely buy right now if i found the house that I want architecturally. That's why I bought when I did in Bed Stuy. Having the house drop in value 10-20% really doesn't mean anything to me.
If I were all cash I'd probably look harder at things that are coming down in Ft. Greene or Boerum Hill.
I have "enough" money that I don't care.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:39 PM
So anyone who bought in Brooklyn only says how happy they are in order to keep their property values up? It would probably shock you to know that not everyone buys just for investment and that they are actually happy with what they bought. Some people just never get that.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 3:42 PM
I think many of them don't get it, bxgrl.
They also really don't understand the economics of moving from manhattan to Brooklyn especially if they don't mind the "inconvenience" of a tenant on the first floor paying practically half of the mortgage.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:45 PM
People...you can buy a whole house in bed Stuy for the price of a one-bedroom condo in many places!!!!!
No, home ownership is not for everyone but these places are soooo cheap. I know it's difficult for first time home buyers in this market. The whole process of qualifying, not to mention the uncertainty of the appraisal is a big problem here.
Brownstones are not for everyone b ut they only need to be "for" a small aprt of the homeowner population because, as a % of the total housing stock, they are a very small portion indeed.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:48 PM
Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick... Tick...
The What (Tock...)
Someday this war is gona end..
Posted by: Return of The What at August 24, 2009 3:48 PM
At least I don't have to live in some hole in Lodi, NJ.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:49 PM
HEY WHAT....you seem to know all about Bed Stuy (at least since 1970, which accounts for about 15% of it's entire history!!!)....what's your take on this article????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:53 PM
"Prices needed to come down to reality so residents that have a been a positive influence turning the neighborhood around can afford to stay."
Crooklyn, I get the sentiment, but not the finance. If you bought your home in 1975 for 20k, what does it mean 'afford to stay?' The current price means nothing to the original pioneers except that they can either stay or sell and move somewhere else and have enuf money to live on for the rest of their lives.
Posted by: denton at August 24, 2009 3:59 PM
"At least I don't have to live in some hole in Lodi, NJ.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 3:49 PM"
Smells like sanitation....
"HEY WHAT....you seem to know all about Bed Stuy (at least since 1970, which accounts for about 15% of it's entire history!!!)....what's your take on this article????"
This tape will self destruct in five seconds, Good luck Mr. Phelps....
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at August 24, 2009 4:04 PM
denton...I suspect that all my neighbors on my block, who I believe have all owned their homes for many decades, are laughing all the way to the bank.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:06 PM
Obsessed with: the carriage house. And the light afforded by bordering on a driveway instead of another building.
Not wild about: honestly, I wish I knew. I think it's a location thing. Farther, by bicycle, from the places we go, mostly.
In general, I think the place is in great shape (okay, so the carriage house needs a roof) and the price is right, and I'm kind of amazed it is still on the market.
Posted by: serpentor at August 24, 2009 4:06 PM
Bxgrl,
Not everyone. After nearly a decade of residents I can say with sincerity: I love Brooklyn. And as soon as I can put together a down payment, I'll likely find something to buy. If, that is, the relationship between incomes and home values corrects. I am young and make a healthy wage. I hope it works out.
However,the persistent defense of multi-million dollar brownstones is absurd. In the past decade, people lived and bought beyond their means. This includes bed stuy (see the foreclosures). Current prices are aberrations, holdovers of a time, economy, and lending environment that no longer exists. For dave to pathologically defend them is a testament to his bias.
Defend Brookly to the death, but don't defend price points.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 4:06 PM
I have never said that prices in my neighborhood and Brooklyn brownstones everywhere would not drop. They won't fall 50-70% though.
If you can come up with some hard evidence that they will I'd like to see it, since you actually work in finance and I'm just a dumbass over invested in real estate in the ghetto and three other nice locations.
People have been on that 50-70% off wagon for a long time here and yet lots of places are selling 10-20% off. All those buyers must be wrong; but then they would be since they are the ones who have actually made the money and are willing to spend it.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:19 PM
Dave have you ever looked up youre neighbors finances on ACRIS?
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 4:21 PM
Denton
The price the homes sell for impacts
- the rental market (not all old timers are home owners)
- the tax base. Higher appraisals mean higher taxes. Older owners on fixed incomes risk being priced out if there is too big of a jump.
- Young buyers who grew up in the neighborhood can't afford to buy in the area they have lived all their life.
Posted by: bedstuy11216 at August 24, 2009 4:23 PM
brickoven....why is it that you think EVERYONE is overleveraged. I've actually got a pretty good idea which houses might be in trouble along Stuyvesant Ave. There are three between where I live and Fulton Park.
If you look up my property it shows that I have a $370,000 mortgage and a $280,000 HELOC. I've never drawn a dollar from that HELOC.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:25 PM
I bet not many of you know how low the real estate taxes are in Bed Stuy!!!!!!!!
I pay $2,000 for a 2,560 sq. ft. place. ROTFLMMFAO. I paid $5,500 for my 750 sq. ft. condo in Manhattan.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:26 PM
dave why do you have the Heloc then?
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 4:28 PM
right DIBS. And talking about 'seniors on fixed incomes' makes me scream. Social Security has been indexed to inflation for decades, in fact they got a nice 5.7% COLA this year.
Posted by: denton at August 24, 2009 4:30 PM
Because Bed Stuy is so geographically large, and its housing stock ranges from Stuyvesant Ave limestones to Fedders specials, it's hard to lump all purchases, and all foreclosures under one statistical group. From the last foreclosure map I saw here recently, a sizable amount of them have not been in the brownstone areas of BS, but on the fringes, where new construction is the norm. That, of course, does not make foreclosure any less painful for those in trouble, but it also doesn't mean Bed Stuy is circling the bowl.
There are also a significant amount of seniors and others who have been victims of mortgage fraud and predatory lending who also rachet up the figures. That is not simply a case of buying above one's means. All of these statistics are much more complex than simple greed or miscalculation, which is why blanket statements don't begin to tell the story here.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at August 24, 2009 4:31 PM
Actually works in Finance- I'm not defending the price points, and actually neither is dave. I hope it does work out for you, but dave gets attacked for saying he's happy with his investment and the reasons why. He doesn't regret it- but wehnever he posts something positive like that, people attack him as only trying to keep his property values high. Montrose Morris gets attacked the same way for loving Crown Heights. I agree with you about the market but defending a neighborhood you love and the investment you made in it is not the same thing as defending unrealistic pricing.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 4:34 PM
"Prices needed to come down to reality so residents that have a been a positive influence turning the neighborhood around can afford to stay."
Crooklyn, I get the sentiment, but not the finance. If you bought your home in 1975 for 20k, what does it mean 'afford to stay?' The current price means nothing to the original pioneers except that they can either stay or sell and move somewhere else and have enuf money to live on for the rest of their lives.
Posted by: denton at August 24, 2009 3:59 PM
It's the kind of thing that keeps old folks in rent-controlled apartments that are way too big for their needs--older people would love to downsize and stay in the neighborhood but they can't. And their kids, unless they want to share the brownstone with mom and dad or grandma and grandpa, can't afford to move in.
Posted by: rf at August 24, 2009 4:34 PM
brickoven...in case I want to leverage up and do something stupid. It's free. I don't pay a yearly fee. It's there if i want it for anything like a Duesenberg or some other necessity.
If I had taken that HELOC out and bought C at the bottom I'd be in the Jennifer Connolly mansion now.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:35 PM
Dave why do you have a HELOC?
Posted by: brickoven at August 24, 2009 4:38 PM
"It's the kind of thing that keeps old folks in rent-controlled apartments that are way too big for their needs--older people would love to downsize and stay in the neighborhood but they can't."
RF, that doesn't add up. If they're staying in their rent-controlled apts, then they're staying. And they can afford to stay. Good argument to abolish rent control tho. Distortion of the markets, for sure.
Posted by: denton at August 24, 2009 4:39 PM
"Dave why do you have a HELOC?"
Not dave, but it's always prudent. Most HELOCS are tied into the prime, LIBOR, or whatever, right now you can borrow money at a rate less than you prime mortgage and have the opportunity to leverage it into another investment cheap.
Posted by: denton at August 24, 2009 4:41 PM
brickoven...I just missed a foreclosure on a condo in Hoboken that was listed for $154,000 and easily could bring in $1,300-1,400 a monmth rent.
That's what the HELOC is there for if I don't want to sell securities...flexibility.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:42 PM
I can certainly borrow through my HELOC at rates lower than my margin account AND that interest is deductible.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 4:48 PM
Bxgrl,
Then Dave should defend his neighborhood, not his "investment." The whole bubble started when, incentivized by government backed programs and institutions, homes became more than places where you sleep, shower, and put your stuff. Babs and all the other smirking cheerleaders got filthy rich off of the massive delusion of over leveraged homeowners. Trying to keep the bubble inflated because your little corner is different is false.
Dave,
You don't believe those 4 RE "investments" color your comments on this site?
By way of example, Montrose Morris is all about the neighborhood and nothing about the price. That is the kind of information I want. Dave's "if you were as smart as me you'd buy now too" bs is contemptible.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 5:08 PM
I defend the neighborhood every chance I get. You were ranting about properties, their prices and whether they were or were not smart investments. I responded in kind.
I don't need to actually defend the neighborhood, it stands on its own merits. I bet you've never even been there.
If I didn't believe in the neighborhood I wouldn't be there. I could have paid more to be elswhere.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 5:12 PM
Dave,
I said you were talking your book, which you are. And that prices generally don't reflect the change in the economy.
I won't be in the market for some time, I could really care less. However, your constant drum-beat for high RE prices is obnoxious. If you're so neutral, then why was Bab's purchase in bed sty an important part of your comment? What value did it add?
Oh, and I live on the other side of Atlantic.
"I could have paid more to be elswhere[sic]." Really now? you grace us with your gilded presence. People like you make me uncomfortable with the amount of money I make.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 5:24 PM
Concerns about gentrification forcing people out are way premature at this point. Rents are low, people who grew up in the area can afford to buy (and I know two who did on my street), and as already stated above taxes are low.
The biggest problems facing low-income owners are the high cost of heat, health problems and no insurance, predatory lending, and fraud.
If Bed Stuy gets more nice restaurants like Peaches, Bread Stuy, and Saraghina, and starts attracting young professional singles (of any color) who can afford high rents, Bed Stuy may go the way of Fort Greene. But for now, rents are low.
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 5:30 PM
Actually works in finance please leave Dave alone. He's psychotic over his lost in the Mutant Asset Bubble and he must keep his delusion going before the Time-Space Continuum collapses around him.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at August 24, 2009 5:32 PM
Actually works in finance- Atlantic is a very long street. And I happen to know dave- you can misconstrue all you like. Like he said- he wouldn't be there is he didn't want to be. But since he is in finance, I see no reason for him to not be able to express his opinion how he knows best. I hope at some point in your life you'll be as successful as he is, with as much real estate experience as he has, but until then you shouldn't be putting words in his mouth. And you have no reason to be insulting him.
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 5:52 PM
I love how one man's or woman's opinion of a neighborhood (that being the author of the article) gets everyone's panties in a bunch.
Posted by: italiana71 at August 24, 2009 6:19 PM
Bxgrl,
I made a snarky comment and he called me an A__h___. After that I think I can take a swipe or two. Dave is probably a nice guy, but he is a beneficiary of the government subsidized real estate bubble machine. He regularly defends artificially high real estate prices. And it grates me when the lucky, with respect to timing, claim to be experts. Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Taleb explores this cognitive error.
Again, nice guy, not an expert, who also has a a conflict of interest.
"I don't ask my barber if I need a hair cut." WB
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 6:28 PM
Italiana71- I thought b'stoner only existed to get our panties in bunches. :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 6:29 PM
AWIF (sorry- getting a little lazy here)- with all due respect, dave's success is not the result of luck, but hard work, smarts and expertise. I realize you don't know anything about him, but dave didn't stumble over his success, he created it. You shouldn't make the mistake of assuming because you don't agree with what he says, that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
That said, yes dave can get snippy. It's one of his more lovable traits :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 6:52 PM
actually works in finance...I hope it's not in a fiduciary position because I don't think you've understood one thing I've said here. You make a personal snarky comment and I can call you an asshole. You sounded like an asshole. You don't seem to understand that either.
I think you haven't understood one thing I said and you've added absolutely nothing to the discussion. What a waste of time.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 6:55 PM
bxgrl, not only do I enjoy getting snippy but it entertains me to no end when I see people who can't even understand a simple sentence. His lack of understanding of the point I was making in the senr=tence that included Babs Corcoran was simply to make the point that there haven't been any real high-end buildings on the market since early 2008.
Inability to comprehend runs rampant on brownstoner. Is that too snippy???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 7:10 PM
Hmmm.... maybe not snippy enough :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at August 24, 2009 7:30 PM
serpentor: Sorry I saw your post rather late.
As for location: Halsey is a bus block and the bus (B26) gets you to Clinton Hill, Ft Greene and Downtown rather quickly. The A/C at Utica, six blocks to the south, gets you to your destination rather quickly too. Not sure what other places you like to go, but if your better half needs some convincing, I can help provide ammo.
As for the roof, that is an easy fix. If you need a contractor, Millad of CTG construction lives a few doors down from here. He is a good guy, he does good work and is reasonably priced.
I hope you can move to the neighborhood.
Posted by: Miss Chiff at August 24, 2009 7:33 PM
"I could have paid more to be elswhere[sic]." Really now? you grace us with your gilded presence. People like you make me uncomfortable with the amount of money I make.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 5:24 PM
LOL...talk about snippy!!!
BTW, your profile says "attorney" so which is it???? attorney or actually work in finance???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 7:38 PM
You don't have attorneys at your fund? No outside counsel? No attorneys that used to be analysts/traders or vice-versa?
Granted the name was chosen back during the crash, and if I had the patience I would create a new name. It was chosen for a specific conversation, and I have not changed it.
Today's Babs example was more pretext than anything. I am rarely on this site during the day, and only witness the cheer leading when I check it at night. I believe that the psychology of your cheer leading, that of someone who, though a great deal of circumstance, was at the right place and time in real estate, is an impediment to the rational prices in the housing market. And at times your "I make a lot of money and you don't" (e.g., rattling off the antiques in your multiple homes) meme is sickening.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 8:24 PM
AWIF you rarely comment or go back and forth with someone so don't place your judgment of a person who you know nothing about. Just to clear a few thing, Dave actually never flashes anything that he acquired unless its directly dealing with the conversation and he states his experiences or advice, which I personally find very helpful (just speaking for myself). I don't have one tenth of his net worth yet we had drinks at least 4 times on different occasions and he never flaunts anything he owns or acts better or superior to anyone else. Anyone who would meet him in person would agree. Maybe you shouldn't judge people so much and actually come out to a brownstoner meetup one of these days and actually judge for yourself then listen to some sock puppets and made up internet personalities.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at August 24, 2009 8:53 PM
If Bed Stuy gets more nice restaurants like Peaches, Bread Stuy, and Saraghina, and starts attracting young professional singles (of any color) who can afford high rents, Bed Stuy may go the way of Fort Greene. But for now, rents are low.
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 5:30 PM
Remember last week's Bed-Stuy rentals? When a family size apartment costs twice what a family-size median income family can pay for rent, families (the descendents of the old-timers who own brownstoners in Bed-Stuy) can't afford the neighborhood. And that's what happened in Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill.
Posted by: rf at August 24, 2009 9:04 PM
actuallyworksinfinance = sock puppet
shillstoner = sock puppet
Posted by: rf at August 24, 2009 9:04 PM
I never made any assumptions as to how much you do or do not make, AWIF. And how am I "an impediment to the rational prices in the housing market?"
I really enjoy listening to you, an attorney, put words in my mouth and misunderstand so much about what I thought were fairly simple and straightforward sentences.
If you think I am keeping you from finding something affordable in the market, as you implied above, then you really don't understand real estate.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:09 PM
rf...I hear what you are saying. It's not just Bed Stuy where the children are priced out but everywhere. The children of UES & UWS parents can't afford that area. The children of BH & PS parents can't afford that area either. That said, if a home gets passed from one generation to the next, which usually happens in one form or another, the children do benefit.
I don't think we can single Bed Stuy out as the only place this is occurring. In fact, you might be able to say that Bed Stuy residents are benefitting to a greater degree (from a lower base) in the rising housing prices than other neighborhoods.
I think if people were getting forced out of their apartments by rent increases here in Bed Stuy we'd hear a lot more about it.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:16 PM
Dave,
I was just responding to Mopar who said that rents are still cheap in Bed-Stuy. Not for a working, median-income family.
And yes, I have seen families of this description move out of Bed-Stuy while more upscale singles and childless couples and couples with little babies move in, just as I saw it in Clinton Hill when I lived there from 1989 to 2007.
Posted by: rf at August 24, 2009 9:21 PM
MJ's death ruled a "Homicide" by LA County Coroner.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:22 PM
I, for one, would be psyched if the prices drop; my landlord bought our very nice building five or six years ago for $350k, we totally love the neighborhood (okay, okay, we're right over the border to crown heights, but darn close) and it would take some drastic reductions (like back to $350k for a decent work-in-progress brownstone) for us to ever buy here.
(I also see some POS buildings priced like it's 2007. It seems like almost everything is priced 25% over reasonable)
Posted by: bfarwell at August 24, 2009 9:31 PM
rf...those rentals we saw posted on here last week in what I would refer to the northern end of Bed Stuy seemed ridiculously high. I know that a nice small one bedroom, newly renovated, can be had for $1,100 at 327 Stuyvesant, the corner of Macon. Four units were recently rented out there at that price and $1,300 for one slightly larger.
I'm not sure how much cheaper you can actually get a place for anywhere in Brooklyn. Shouldn't someone making $50,000 be able to afford $1,100 per month???
I have to admit, I may not be the best person to analyze what people should be able to afford. Also, as a landlord, I can't see raising rent on people more than a couple of percent every year should be unaffordable either.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:31 PM
ps- we're a half-yuppie couple with a baby. sorry. ;)
Posted by: bfarwell at August 24, 2009 9:32 PM
Ever buy a table at Christie's for $9,000, cornerbodega?? No, I suspect you've never been to Christies. That kind of expensive furniture.
It's labelled underneath and was made in NY in 1772-1775. You need to learn to appreciate the finer things in life.
You stay in contact with me here more often and maybe it'll rub off on you.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at July 31, 2009 6:47 PM
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 9:34 PM
DIBS, above is why you sound like a pretentious dick. Thanks for the offer kensington, but I'll pass.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 9:37 PM
I just stood on a $100,000 chair recently trying to reach something. It was an ugly-ass chair. Expensive and 'finer things in life' do not always align.
(the chandelier above the chair, however, which had a clock face built into the round base so you could look up and see what time it was, was superfine. I'd trade them at *least* four of the chairs for that chandelier.)
Posted by: bfarwell at August 24, 2009 9:41 PM
Why don't you post the discussion that led up to me posting that, jackass.
Typical lawyer trying to stretch something to fit his argument by taking something else out of context. You're a real pip, AWIF.
Maybe you could join in on the tour of the Met that I offered to take bodegaboy on and learn something yourself!!!!
Luckily the Japanese market is quiet and there's nothing on TV so I can amuse myself by watching you get your knickers in a bunch over me!!! ROTFLMMFAO
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:41 PM
bfarwell...what's a "half-yuppie" couple??? :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:43 PM
I'm glad I'm here for your enjoyment, AWIF. Too bad you can't seem to add anything to the discussion of Bed Stuy instead of acting like a pompous know-it-all.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 9:45 PM
It was a ridiculous discussion, and corner bodega is unhinged. However, your condescending tone rung clear as a bell.
You're not keeping me from anything. The psychology of cheer leading of home prices past traditional income related measures is, and has been, highly destructive. You flipped a condo and got a brownstone. Now you think the illusion is real, and your brownstone is worth what you paid. Truth is, the liquidity sloshing around the housing market pushed up your appraised value, not anything tangible.
In re Bed Stuy: great architecture in areas. Not much transit. Still not cool at night for a lawyer in a suit.
Posted by: actually works in finance at August 24, 2009 10:01 PM
Bernanke said to be nominated by Obama for second term
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:02 PM
I didn't "flip a condo" moron. I lived in it for 10 years. I also don't think my brownstone is worth what I paid. It amazes me how you make shit up to suit your version of what you think reality is.
You can't afford a brownstone it seems so you take it out on others. It's just the market it's not the fault of any individual or group of "cheerleaders." Get a grip.
The way you behave I suspect not many areas are cool for you in a suit.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:07 PM
Actually works in finance that it from me...
Get yourself a nice six pack, a comfortable lawn chair and some Ray-Ban's. The mushroom cloud is going to be pretty. Jackasses like Dave is going to get smashed..
The What (Dave and the Sock puppets suck my Balls!)
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: Return of The What at August 24, 2009 10:08 PM
You don't see me going after people on the UESblog.com because I can't afford a $40MM east side townhouse.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:09 PM
Hi What. Taking a break from watching the Asian markets?? Or are you just in between lines???
I'll be fine What. Even if I had to bail and sell I'd still be fine. See, unlike what you think everyone in the world has done, I have not leveraged myself.
But that may change...there are some very cheap properties over in Hoboken that have realistic yields well > 10%.
You should think about your future and make some investments so you don't have to work the restof your life!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:14 PM
It always strengthens your position when What throws you Skittles, AWIF.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:18 PM
Congratulation people on a job well done. We've kept this thread going for 12 hours with nothing substantive being added since rf did at 9:21.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:33 PM
RF, also want to say those rentals listed last week were way overpriced and not typical. You can rent a very fine 1.5 bedroom apt, perfect for a small family, in great condition, for $1200 to $1300. You can rent a three-bedroom for $1400 to $1600. In New York City, that is a steal.
Sure, you could get a two-bedroom for $800 -- in Carrboro, N.C.
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 10:37 PM
Hi Dave!
Posted by: mopar at August 24, 2009 10:38 PM
Hi mopar. I'm watching the Barrett Jackson auto auctions on Speed.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:41 PM
"When the top goes down, the price goes up." I love that line.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:43 PM
I'm surprised how much money they get for 60s Corvette resto-mods. They approach the price of original restored vehicles. I wish I still had my '59.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:45 PM
hey dibs- My wife's a young professional (architect) and I'm a vaguely-employed freelancer artist person. Therefore, though neither of us are much of a fit with the typical yuppie image, I must admit that half our couple does fit the literal yup acronym.
though at 33, we're probably pushing the Y end of it. Mauppies, here we come.
(and I bet one could find a $800 2br... and it would be either a fluke or a shithole. we overpay ($1700) for a really pleasing 2br with a nice landlord right upstairs... but i had a $700 2br on atlantic avenue oh these many (8?) years ago, and it would still be a ripoff at that price today. worst place I've ever lived.)
Posted by: bfarwell at August 24, 2009 10:51 PM
Good night all. Hope you feel better tomorrow, AWIF.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at August 24, 2009 10:55 PM
re lawyers in suits- I wore a suit (I had a more 'real' job back then) and carried a big ol' camera around my neck going home at night (late at night) to atlantic and nostrand whenever that was (2001? 2000?) and it was no more or less dangerous-feeling than it is now. Sometimes you get shit for looking weird, sometimes you don't.
Admittedly, it is only a couple blocks from the subway, but still. Plenty of opportunity for razzing, and I only even got _verbally_ harassed once or twice a year.
Posted by: bfarwell at August 24, 2009 11:00 PM
I just got beat on by some "youths" in "Historic Stuyvesant Heights" less than an hour ago at the corner of Macdonough and Stuyvesant.
You know: one block east of Peaches and Saraghina... the fabulous restaurants the Times and others have been gushing about.
Still want to live in Bed Stuy?
How much off the purchase price is your health and well being worth to you?
Feel like taking a beat-down for no reason?
Then Bed Stuy welcomes you, friend.
Posted by: bryanx at September 8, 2009 9:11 PM
Latest Restaurant Additions
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Le Barricou
added November 20, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Der Schwarze Kölner
added November 19, 2009 12:00 PM in Fort Greene -
Oak Wine Bar & Café
added November 18, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Mr. Wonton
added November 17, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Casa Rosa
added November 16, 2009 12:00 PM in Carroll Gardens -
Cousin John's Café & Bakery
added November 13, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Elote
added November 12, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Miracle Grill
added November 11, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Phoebe's Cafe
added November 10, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Ruthie's
added November 9, 2009 12:00 PM in Clinton Hill, Downtown Brooklyn
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