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June 30, 2009
Court of Appeals Will Hear AY Eminent Domain Case
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There is a point at which Forest City Enterprises will walk away from this project. Then it will remain just a hole in the ground for many, many years. Will these jackasses be satisfied then??? NO. Once someone else is interested in taking it over in eight years that bunch will start up all over again. Be careful what you wish for NIMBYs.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 30, 2009 11:29 AM
I'm one of the jackasses that'll be satisfied.
If Ratner walks away, he'll sell the parcel for a profit to a developer that doesn't need welfare. And we'll only have lost the $50 million in affordable housing grants the taxpayers gave him to, ahem, buy the land. Instead of the $2 billion he was originally supposed to get from us.
Granted, being bilked out of $50 mill isn't a pleasant experience. But it could've been a lot worse.
Now let's find a rational developer who's well financed enough to only need appropriate levels of public assistance.
Posted by: Johnny at June 30, 2009 11:39 AM
You can almost see my apartment building in that photo- I think the photographer and I must be neighbors.
One of the points of view that I happen to agree with is that the Vanderbilt Yards have been a big hole in the ground for years. What difference does it make if it stays a hole in the ground for a few more until the right size development comes along that is also completely transparent in all its dealings and isn't a huge waste of taxpayer money?
If FCR had gone through a completely transparent public review process like the Two Trees building in Dumbo or the thing over in Gowanus w/ the rezoning, if the MTA hadn't given the deal to Ratner and not gone with the higher bid- there might be a whole lot less public outrage. Too bad for them they were greedy and stupid.
Calling the AY footprint "blighted" is a load of crap. It might not be the most gentrified or pretty area in Brooklyn, but if you judge by the friendliness of neighbors or the fantastic time everyone had at last weekend's Dean Street Block Association's yearly street party this area is just as vibrant as any other corner of Bklyn, and should be allowed to develop at it's own pace w/o the interference from city/state govt and greedy developers. (Which it was doing quite well all on it's own when this project came about in the first place)
Posted by: ennuiater at June 30, 2009 11:43 AM
Count me in as another satisfied jackass. Kudos to Daniel et al.
Posted by: cmu at June 30, 2009 11:53 AM
Ennuiater:
I second that transparency in planning was why so many neighborhood residents opposed the Ratner plan. Also, add that the residential real estate that was developed and selling BEFORE the Ratner switcheroo was trading at market. In other words, market forces said that there was no blight.
The so called affordable housing component would come in a future phase and all the while it would be 25 years out.
Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at June 30, 2009 11:55 AM
The issue was not NIMBYISM for the majority of us- it was the project scale, design and expense. I would bet you anything, had Ratner not begun this whole stupid idea, they would already have been construction going on. Smaller projects, more diversified projects, more intelligently designed projects. But Ratner comes along with a monstrous plan and everything that was already happening or in the works, stops dead. That City Planning or FCR did not foresee the strong pushback to AY simply points up how shortsighted and ignorant they were. But that's what arrogance nets you.
Do I think a hole in the ground is preferable- until something well planned and thought out comes along, yes. But to build just anything simply for the sake of building- no.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 30, 2009 11:57 AM
"I would bet you anything, had Ratner not begun this whole stupid idea, they would already have been construction going on. Smaller projects, more diversified projects, more intelligently designed projects."
Too bad I cant take that bet.....a little tough to have these developments you wish just spring up - when you have to build a 100M cover over the railyards....
Posted by: fsrg at June 30, 2009 12:08 PM
So the city offers a free cover for qualified developers.
Still $1.9 billion cheaper than Ratnerville.
Posted by: Johnny at June 30, 2009 12:12 PM
From your mouth to god's ears, dibs -- and let that point be soon! I'd be another satisfied jackass if it's a hole in the ground as opposed the pile of crap Ratner is trying to bury us with (knock on wood).
There may be enough attention there to get something good built. Something inspired, creative, accessible and human. Something that has community input. Have you walked the High Line Park in the past couple weeks? WOW. That's the kind of brilliant (re-)development we deserve. Not arena knock-offs from Indianapolis built by hacks from Cleveland.
Posted by: chuck at June 30, 2009 12:24 PM
Isn't a train yard already a hole in the ground DIBS?
Noboby told the MTA they have to sell the land, they can keep it and continue to use it forever and eventually sell the air rights to the highest bidder. It's buy low, sell high, not the other way around. The sweetheart deal DDDB's trying to fight reeks more of socialism than capitalism Dave.
Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at June 30, 2009 12:30 PM
agree w Johnny - covering the rail yards would have been just the thing for the city to do - once it owned the yards or took some form of control over them.
In fact, I remember from the PLANNYC 2030 literature that the city was proposing to do essentially the same thing to the BQE, Prospect Expway, Sunnyside, and other sunken road or railways: deck them over and build housing.
But let's remember also the the City is a peripheral player here....this is Albany's game.
Posted by: epkwy at June 30, 2009 12:30 PM
Whether Atlantic Yards gets built or not, I have no idea...but the one thing I do know with absolute certainty is that if AY does not get built, the corner of Flatbush and Atlantic will be a hole in the ground for the rest of our collective lifetimes. Do you really, honestly think that there would not have been NIMBY's suing Extell if the "UNITY" plan had been adopted? Everyone in this fricken borough thinks that there a goddamned real estate developer and that they can do a better job in conceptualizing, planning and building development projects! If Jesus Christ came back to life and promised to build heaven on earth in Brooklyn, at the corner of Flatbush and Atlantic, I assure you that there would be some group of NIMBY's fighting against it. Look at every single development project proposed for Brooklyn in the past 15-20 years...Brooklyn Bridge Park, Willoughby Square Park, Renovation of the BQE, Coney Island, Navy Yard...the list goes on and on....every single time some project is proposed to improve this borough...there is always some group that comes out against it....sheesh!!
Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at June 30, 2009 1:11 PM
FtGCorey - I'd like to agree w/ you but the development is almost a side issue to the matter of MTA's having virtually given away the space. I'd rather they get a reasonable sum so they won't have to keep raising rates just to maintain infrastructure. It the whole AY deal falls apart, I imagine a better deal will be made in the future.
Posted by: Arkady at June 30, 2009 1:18 PM
Arkady, my point is that there will never be a "better deal" in the minds of NIMBY's. If some other developer (not named Ratner) promised to pay a Billion Dollars up front, people would still be bitching and moaning about "giving away public lands to private developers". They would say "It's too big", or "It's too small" They would say "Why is a retail development" or "Why is it a residential development". They would say "The development is too modern for Brooklyn" or they would say "Why is it so old fashioned and traditional?" In our overly litigious society, there has to be damned near unanimity for any major project to get built, otherwise you end up with a slate of frivolous lawsuits..and in a place like this with all of the wacky characters we have here, unanimity is virtually impossible.
Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at June 30, 2009 1:31 PM
This whole project was out of scale from the beginning and if any developer wants to build within the context of the surrounding neighborhoods, the community will be very welcoming to reasonable development. We have lived in Prospect Heights for 20 years with that whole in the ground and can live another 20…40 years until someone who engages with the neighborhood comes along and does not ram a monstrosity down our throats and suck taxpayer money from us to line his pockets. Jackasses we will be. Go DDDB!
Posted by: bklynrocks at June 30, 2009 1:52 PM
Bklynrocks...you're a liar...I guarantee that if a developer were to drop a carbon copy of prospect heights on top of the train yards, you would say "There's no original details" "There aren't enough trees" "The new developments will attract outsiders" "I've been here for twenty years...now people from Manhattan will move here!" NIMBY!
Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at June 30, 2009 2:00 PM
Not to be the dark cloud, but this is a total pyrrhic victory. Kelo v. New London still allows FCR and Brooklyn the right to eminent domain for private development. Which, again, is why FCR has won every single challenge to AY.
The Appellate Division of the State Supreme Court, unanimously rejected the eminent domain challenge. Sadly (for some on this board) we are still a nation of laws and Kelo v. New London means Ratner can build.
I can't wait to see what f*cking architectural downgrade we get now.
Posted by: havelc at June 30, 2009 2:29 PM
if Forest City walks, it won't be developed for many years, can't be sold....
Court of Appeals is taking to get it over with and confirm the law, they aren't a trial court
no one else will step up at this point
no FCRC, nothing will happen for many many years no one else has the will or capability other than maybe Silverstein Properties
Posted by: chrishavens at June 30, 2009 2:30 PM
At this point, you really have to ask what dark lord the DDDB people have a connection to such that they can continue to lose on the same grounds and continue to get new court dates.
Posted by: havelc at June 30, 2009 2:39 PM
Let's at least stop with this foolish claim that everyone who is opposed to AY is a NIMBY (or NIMBYer or whatever we have decided to call them).
I don't live anywhere near AY and whether it is constructed or not will not impact my neighborhood, but there are plenty of people including myself who don't live in the area but still think that if a developer is going to get a cut rate deal to develop a piece of property owned by a city or state agency, he or she should deliver on the promises they made to get the sweetheart deal in the first place. In this case, that includes delivering on affordable housing. If the project is not going to deliver on its promises, then clearly the city or the MTA should be receiving some piece of the profits as compensation.
Posted by: bkhabitant at June 30, 2009 2:47 PM
An unusual amount of love for DDDB here today! It would be nice if some money followed that love. I will be writing a check for $50 today myself. Just saying.
My block association is a member of DDDB, and while you have a point, FtGreeneCorey, that there will always be haters, the haters could not have built themselves such a relatively broad constituency had Forest City not conspired to ride roughshod over our reasonable complaints. The only other topic my block association has rallied around has been our annual block party.
I certainly hope this project is abandoned. I'm disappointed there will be a hole in the ground for many years but pleased that the inevitable hole in the public's pocket (that site does need a lot of remediation for any new construction) will be smaller. It might even yield some real public benefit.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at June 30, 2009 3:06 PM
I think that the only thing we can ALL agree on is that one way or the other this whole mess will be resolved by 12/31/09
Posted by: FtGreeneCorey at June 30, 2009 3:33 PM
I also object to people shrieking NIMBY because of opposition to this project. Corey, havelc- that may be your take on the whole issue- you aren't looking at all the issues. Kelo does not guarantee that any developer can go and claim eminent domain and take private property. It sets a precedent but developers still have to contend with state eminent domain laws- and therein lies either saving grace or thorn in the side, depending on your point of view. Obviously the Court of Appeals did not like what it read in prior court decisions, which is why the appeal was accepted. That should tell you something.
And yes- no matter what project, there is always someone who will not want it- but most of them will not be so misbegotten as this one. It would be nice if pro-AYers could drop the frantic name-calling and insults, and actually LISTEN to the objections. Had Ratner tried to work with the community and people who protested,DDDB, he would have generated far more positive press and far less aggravation.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 30, 2009 3:36 PM
I'm with you FortGreenCorey. And to backup your point, I suggest all those folks who are cheering the end of AY head over to the Village and take a walk along the Hudson River. That is, take a walk along the narrow strip of green alongside six lanes of noisy highway full of polluting, smelly cars and trucks and imagine what might have been: Westway, a buried highway covered by acres upon acres of park. It was blocked by a small group of tireless, determined NIMBYs who spent years arguing that the current state of affairs would be better for the environment, and finally won on a technicality. And then take a trip up to Boston, to the buried Central Artery, for what Westway could have brought our city. I have resigned myself to the realization that NYC will never have any of the world-class architecture, any of the major new developments that grace other cities, and Brooklyn especially, where people hate the likes of Gehry but revere the incredibly boring Williamsburg bank building as an iconic tower (now converted to luxury housing, and I didn't hear anyone on this board concerned about affordable housing protest that one). I for one am incredibly sad that we will be stuck with a hole in the ground for decades.
Posted by: westernnygirl at June 30, 2009 3:37 PM
What makes you think the Gehry design was world class? He has done world class buildings- they weren't coming to AY.Comparing Westway- which would have been a huge plus- to AY is like comparing zebras and bears.
AY was not going to rectify anything environmental, and would have, in fact increased pollution, put much more strain on area resources and infrastructure, while not providing the promised public spaces. And the affordable hosing? Maybe in 15+ years, if ever. And probably not on-site. I really hate repeating this, because pro-AYers seem to never get it- people do want development there. But they want a good plan, well thought out and intelligently planned. That was not AY as presented.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 30, 2009 3:50 PM
"I'm with you FortGreenCorey."
Me, too.
"I for one am incredibly sad that we will be stuck with a hole in the ground for decades."
Me, too.
Posted by: East New York at June 30, 2009 3:55 PM
westernnygirl: While I agree with you, the spectre of Robert Moses still haunts all development/NIMBY issues in NYC.
However - the missing fight here is that Rater is not the problem - its the MTA.
Ratner wants to make $$ -that's all. He will do anything to get $$, including cut as many corners as legally possible. That is also par for the course.
But the MTA continually ignores its obligation to accept the highest bidder. The Extell plan would have been fine, but too many politicians got sweaty hands while waiting to stick their hand in the cookie jar - so FCRC's bid was rigged.
I am not happy with the hole in the ground, but also hated the original Gerhy design.
Had the MTA complied with its directives, this would have worked, but the fix was in way too soon, and DDDB is not wrong to call out FCRC and the MTA on their complicity.
Posted by: Knickerbocker at June 30, 2009 4:42 PM
Phew! Is he gone yet?
Rainbow arched the vanished bridge
I step out in blue
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 30, 2009 5:57 PM
Kinickerbocker is correct, there are several parallels between Westway and AY: terrible communication and a complete lack of transparency between planners and the community being the key. The spectre of Robert Moses was too great for Westway -- after all, this was the guy who wanted to run a 6-lane highlight across lower Manhattan (right through SoHo and the West Village). Similarly after the disappointments of Metrotech, many Brooklynites don't trust Ratner. And then there's Frank Gehry who (whether you think his work is brilliant or not) has a lousy reputation for designing out-of-context developments.
But AY has always been a farce. Too big, too expensive, too dependent on taxpayer subsidies. The affordable housing was the worst lie. Never really affordable (maybe 10% under market rate when rents were at their peak, now it's probably par) and even included minimum income level exclusions, ie. if you earned too little, you wouldn't qualify! Also there was never any obligation to build it at the site. The affordable housing component could have been constructed anywhere in the borough. The agreement with ACORN -- heralded as a big deal -- stipulated that if Ratner didn't follow through on the affordable housing (and there was no timeline specified), he would have to pay a penalty of $500,000. BFD!
We are better off w/o this nightmare. Though I'm sad the organic redevelopment and reuse of buildings that was once so active in our neighborhood has been halted by FCR's absurd ambitions. Losing the Ward Bakery is especially hard to take. Built in the same style as BAM and the Audubon Boat House, it's original grandeur could have been restored and there were plans for that to happen before FCR bought the property and knocked it down to create "conditions on the ground."
Posted by: grand army at June 30, 2009 6:05 PM
grand army- I didn't know there had been plans to restore the bakery. Makes Ratner even more of an a$$.
Posted by: bxgrl at June 30, 2009 6:12 PM
Woo hoo! I am very satisfied -- that "hole in the ground" is by no means new, and is actually the LIRR's Vanderbilt Yards. Yes, it would have been nice and is certainly more aesthetically pleasing an idea to have all that underground, but not nice enough to warrant the nightmare proposed by Ratner financed mostly at taxpayer expense.
And the most recent proposal would even have reduced the LIRR's capacity at this site, making life even more hellish for commuters and local users of the Atlantic Avenue terminal.
Off to DDDB's website for a celebratory donation!
Posted by: babs at June 30, 2009 6:24 PM
This is a shame. This will effectively kill AY and the entire northern part of Prospect Heights and the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush will remain vacant lots for the next few decades. A million bucks says that Dan Goldstein moves out shortly after Ratner throws in the towel. Thanks, Dan, we're all so proud you elected yourself to represent our interests!
Idiot...
Posted by: Big Jugs at June 30, 2009 7:36 PM
Big Jugs: Have you considered the possibility that people would move into Dan's building. There are signs of life coming from the building located at 6th and Pacific. Hmmm...buildings were condos were selling north of $500,000 before Ratner started all of this foolishness.
Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at June 30, 2009 9:20 PM
Even if every unit in Senor Goldstein's building were to be occupied tomorrow, the northern part of PH would remain a hole in the ground, so your point is meaningless!!!
Posted by: Big Jugs at July 1, 2009 6:24 PM
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