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June 29, 2009

Race, Class and P.S. 20's Controversial Principal

This weekend the Local's Andy Newman followed up the extensive blog reporting on P.S. 20 he's been doing with an article about Sean Keaton, the elementary school's love-him-or-loathe-him principal. The story describes Keaton, who missed the Fort Greene school's graduation last week—he was barred from attending by Dept. of Ed officials owing to assault charges he's facing for allegedly beating up a teacher's union rep—as being at the center of a race-class divide: "In the resurgent brownstone bastions of Fort Greene, Boerum Hill and the fringes of Park Slope, affluent parents with one set of expectations for their children’s education — progressive, hands-on, emphasizing freedom — are clashing with longtime, working-class residents who prefer stricter, more structured educational models like the one Mr. Keaton favored, leaving principals caught in the crossfire...At P.S. 20, some of the conflict has been tinged with race: Mr. Keaton is black, as are three-quarters of the students, while many of the families who said they found him hard to work with are white. Much of it has to do with class. Some comes down to personal style: Even many of Mr. Keaton’s supporters say he can be abrasive and inclined to escalate rather than defuse tensions." In a poll of Brownstoner readers a couple months ago that ran before the assault charges, 47 percent of you said Keaton should be removed from the school; 17 percent said he should stay; and 36 percent said you didn't know enough about the issue to have an opinion one way or the other.
As Cultures Clash, Brooklyn Principal Faces Assault Charges [NY Times]
PS 20: It’s a Long Story [The Local]
Time for PS 20 Principal to Get The Boot? [Brownstoner]
Photo from the Bridge & Tunnel Club.

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Comments

"At P.S. 20, some of the conflict has been tinged with race: Mr. Keaton is black, as are three-quarters of the students, while many of the families who said they found him hard to work with are white."

We ain't used to being the minority too often and don't like it when we are. lol.

I guess the What will be back today!

Dibs, do you think it's cool the principal beat up the union rep. Another lol.

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 9:09 AM

As much as I loathe unions these days, denton, I'd have to say that, unless the union rep threw the first punch, the principal needs to go to jail for assault. Not enough info.

Hey WHAT.....I'm still waiting for an acknowledgement of my apology at 2:36 in friday's OT.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 9:13 AM

Perceived class/race war sells papers. The assault angle definitely makes it juicier.

Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at June 29, 2009 9:28 AM

i think a lot of people just have issue with well-heeled crunchy granola parents who always insist their precious little crotchfruit are the brightest and best, when in reality most are just normal, like everyone else.

tho if this guys is punching coworkers out, that's a little over the top.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 29, 2009 9:30 AM

According to the account of the assault, it looks like the principal is guilty.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 9:31 AM

Yeah, I remember when union reps were always the toughest guys on the block!

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 9:32 AM

"The assault angle definitely makes it juicier. "

Yeah, here's a principal who 'goes to bat' for his kids. What's not to like?

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 9:33 AM

The issues at PS 20 may be "tinged with race," but Mr. Keaton is not qualified for the job if he can't handle the parents without them turning on him. His school is not in a unique situation, and other principals in the neighborhood have managed the same issues. Judging from some of the things he's written and the allegations of assualt, he seems at times irrational and unstable. It's a tough job, and he seems not to be able to handle it, that's all.

Posted by: jawbreaker at June 29, 2009 9:43 AM

I work with a demanding public, it is always wise to allow access and to listen to their concerns. I used to work with a slightly apathetic public, and my colleagues and I would comment on how apathetic publics are easier to work with and "better" - no one to hassle you and your decisions, which SOUNDS horrible but really it's just a way of saying we were allowed to be professionals and to enforce standards as we saw fit.

My impression is that he is a capable manager who has zero time or skill in public relations, even the pr between parents and himself and the administration. That is a seriously unwise and problematic thing, however it is correctable.

I would send him to some sort of leadership academy or put in a temporary veteran part-time person to mentor the guy or advise him in handling the public. A huge portion of a principal's job is to deal with parents, except when it's to deal with a school rife with issues. Sadly the parents were a ready-made sounding board for the issues he must have been facing daily, a board he apparently disliked.

Posted by: infinitejester at June 29, 2009 9:44 AM

"Mr. Segarra (the Union Rep) said that at one point, Mr. Keaton began poking him and, when Mr. Segarra would not back down, hitting him (or kicking him) at least 20 times....The police said a stomp print on his head matched the tread of Mr. Keaton’s shoe....Mr. Keaton’s supporters remained steadfast. “He’s straightforward and he pulls no punches."

He don't pull no punches and he don't stop his foot from hitting some white cracker upside the head either. I say that's the kind of dedication we need from teachers and administrators alike. I bet some White Honkies are going to complain, they're going to claim that "stomp prints" on the face are going too far. They just don't get it, (unless whenb Keaton is stomping on their faces) and should move the hell out of Crooklyn. Right What!!??

Posted by: Brooklynnative at June 29, 2009 9:45 AM

Rob, for christ's sake get a grip! you were one too, you know...how did your parents treat you? Or is the problem?

Yes, there are overprotective parents and those who take any disciplining their kids badly, but on the surface this principal does not seem to be right, if the reporting is right.

As one who grew in very strict schools and whose son is going to ICE (probably the loosest public school in NY,) I am heavily in the other camp. My son had problems with his V grade teacher this year; while I never took issue with her, I know it's because of his slightly anti-authoritarian and contrary nature (which I will admit I/we must've fostered.) But had it occurred earlier or more often, believe me I would have protested to the administration.

Posted by: cmu at June 29, 2009 9:48 AM

Yes how dare these yuppies insist a school be for learning and exploration when they should know what the NYC publuic schools are, a daycare for working mothers meant to instill fear, FEAR...

Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at June 29, 2009 9:49 AM

Brooklynnative lemme get a dollar.

Posted by: infinitejester at June 29, 2009 9:52 AM

Brooklynnative is a big man behind his login. Probably looks like this in real life:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/enfantprovocateur.htm

Let's see if the what's really anti racism with the use of the "honkies" word above or is it just a one-way street.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 9:52 AM

Teachers' unions and incompetent administrators: a pox on both your houses!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 9:53 AM

Ininite - Brooklynnative lemme get a dollar??

Huh?? People don't get my humor but what the hell is that in reference to?

Posted by: Brooklynnative at June 29, 2009 9:57 AM

You don't get that? What are you, a total liar with your handle? If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

Posted by: infinitejester at June 29, 2009 10:08 AM

I beleive Infinitej is engaging in what Brooklyn youths refer to as "running your shit" or "getting herbed."

Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at June 29, 2009 10:14 AM

IJ, I'll 'splain it to him :-)

You're walking your punk ass down the street with your momma's lunch money and three kids come up to you and say 'yo, lemme get a dollar'. I think IJ was suggesting you would promptly give it to them.

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 10:17 AM

Speaking of race & class, I watched "Gran Torino" this weekend. WOW, was that good.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 10:28 AM

dibs, I second that... saw it last weekend myself.

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 10:46 AM

Dave, first time I ever saw my husband openly crying in a movie. Gran Torino. It should be required viewing.

Posted by: Nokilissa at June 29, 2009 10:48 AM

Yes, Nikilissa, I did too. First one I ever cried at though was "Gallipoli"

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 10:51 AM

"There's only one boss around here, and that's me. The HNIC." ~ Joe Clark

Posted by: DizzyNYC at June 29, 2009 10:56 AM

I'm sorry, but if your response to a professional conflict is to knock someone down and stomp on their head, you really have no business being an educator.

Children should not learn that grownups can handle business conflicts this way and still keep their jobs. Because, really, 99% of the time you can't.

Posted by: bkrules at June 29, 2009 11:00 AM

Sad thing is, he won't likely be fired because of the f**&&ing union. He'll wind up in that padded room with all those others.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 11:05 AM

Jeez, it's been a while since the school yard days. Ring Go Leave Yo 1,2,3.

Posted by: Brooklynnative at June 29, 2009 11:05 AM

DIBS,

Principals are not UFT members. Their union is the much less powerful CSA. They took the wise choice a few years back and gave up ironclad tenure in exchange for a large pay raise. I wish the teachers' union would do the same!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 11:11 AM

I dont know anything about this principal or PS 20 but based on what Ive read the guy sounds a little off....

But NYT please STFU with your ridiculous assesments - "the affluent" generally dont want education that is "progressive and emphasizing freedom" - I am sure a few do - but for the most part - they want a GOOD education - that is education that meets the skills and needs of their kids and keeps them challenged and moving forward. AND FOR SURE the working class "longtime" members of the community either want the same thing - OR - dont give a too much of a $hit.

Sorry but we are in an education based society....if you are on your 3rd generation of H.S. dropouts (for example) then odds are the reason is YOUR family culture and the likely main factor in your low socio-economic position is that lack of emphasis on education.

Posted by: fsrg at June 29, 2009 11:12 AM

the article noted something i thought was telling: one of mr. keaton's "supporters" "supported" him in public, when she was surrounded by other parents who support him. but later, when alone, she was much more equivocal ("but he can be evil"???).

this controversy seems about two conflicting approaches to education than about keaton himself. as i see it, keaton just had the totally wrong personality and set of impulses (and who knows what else - not enough experience, life or job?) to bridge the conflict between groups of parents. instead he came to personify one side of the debate, which leaves the unfortunate situation of some people defending behavior that doesn't really seem defensible (if the allegations are true).

fsrq - i agree with much of what you're saying. i think that all parents who care want a good education for their kids, but as i understand it (do not have a kid at ps 20) the issue was how much parents can be involved in the education process at school, and what is the correct approach to things that distract from the education itself - e.g., discipline. i think it's just laziness to encapsulate the debate as "progressive" vs. "traditional," but keaton's authoritarian approach (as it's been described) appears to have been a flashpoint, and a true portrayal of the conflict would probably be more like a master's thesis than a newspaper article!

in any event, even with keaton gone, the debate will continue, and will continue to raise some rancor. this is one fear i've heard from parents all across brooklyn who are reluctant to send their kids to their local public school.

Posted by: i disagree at June 29, 2009 11:28 AM

The principal sounds like some kind of control freak or egomaniac. He does not deserve to remain in the school. Beating someone up is not only cause for dismissal but could be a reason to go to jail. Crazy is crazy -what does race have to do with it?

Posted by: sam at June 29, 2009 11:47 AM

Race is an issue because moderately wealthy liberals like those who predominate in Park Slope have a distorted view of how children should be raised. Less well off people of color have a very different idea of what discipline means and why children need it.

Posted by: Polemicist at June 29, 2009 12:08 PM

The author characterizes PS20 as a "place in a neighborhood where uneasily coexisting tribes come together for a crucial civic activity. And in Fort Greene, it seems like all the everyday hassles and potential flip sides of this place’s vaunted diversity — resentment, fear, misunderstanding, misinformed assumption — emerge in capital letters in the schools."

So according to the author, Fort Greene is in the midst of some sort of tribal war. (Maybe The What is on to something with his covert race rant).

Anyway, the removal of Mr. Keaton is certainly a victory for one of these tribes.

Now that he is gone, will victors actually send their kids to PS20?

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 12:10 PM

As opposed to his rant on the Armory thread, I'm kinda inclined to agree with Polemicist here.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 12:12 PM

"crotchfruit"

This is a particularly offensive and unfortunate term.

Posted by: East New York at June 29, 2009 12:13 PM

It must be almost impossible for anyone. let alone a principal to please everyone. It sounds like Keaton really did some good things, and had great potential but his own personality got in the way. I don't think an effective principle should be forced out because not every parent loves him- so long as the school keeps improving and kids are getting a good education. But a man who stomps a union rep/teacher during an argument should be in jail for assault. If he can't control his temper in a meeting with a professional colleague, what makes anyone think he can control his temper with a child?

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 12:24 PM

"don't think an effective principle should be forced out..." agree, effective ones should be naturally adopted.

sorry, couldn't resist.

Posted by: cmu at June 29, 2009 12:39 PM

"Less well off people of color have a very different idea of what discipline means and why children need it"

and at the risk of more contention, are you implying that they are right? ot that the liberals coddle their kids?

Posted by: cmu at June 29, 2009 12:41 PM

(Maybe The What is on to something with his covert race rant).

Not maybe is!!!!

The Union Rep got in The Principal's face and got his ass kicked with a good ole fashion Brooklyn Beat down! This story is old but leave it up to Jon and Brownstoner to to roll out Covert Race/Class Warfare!

I was in a great part of this state yesterday! The neighborhood was fantastic. Large spaces, big green lawns, Children paying outside, excellent school system and not a care in the world. I thought about you (Neighborhood Hijacking Retards and their Crotchfruit living in the worst part of Brooklyn because of the Brownstone "investment". You put yourselves and your Children's future at risk everyday and whine like little pussies when you can't get your way. This is why I've calmed down because is only a matter of time before you lose everything and the stagecoach returns in to a pumpkin...

The What (Dumbasses....)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 12:47 PM

"Less well off people of color have a very different idea of what discipline means and why children need it"

not even sure its a color thing. ive seen that leaning towards strict dicipline among poorer white, and various economic classes of eastern europeans (my parents) and asians

Posted by: goldie at June 29, 2009 12:51 PM

"The Union Rep got in The Principal's face and got his ass kicked with a good ole fashion Brooklyn Beat down!

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 12:47 PM

TYPICAL LOW-LIFE RESPONSE.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 12:53 PM

I am in this district and have a 2 year old, so I have been asking other neighborhood parents about PS 20 for awhile.

The biggest issue (prior to the assault) seemed to be about inclusion vs. exclusion of parents. Keaton was a 'my way or the highway' administrator, so if you questioned his methods, you were shut out of the process. This alienated many parents (all races, the real FG divider is wealth), and appeared to be the primary reason PS 11 (the other district school) has 7 - 8 new kindergarten classes, while PS 20 only has 2-3.

Yes, there is a racial component to this, but the bottom line is that Keaton had no interest in keeping all the people happy all the time, and created a division amongst parents in the area. This worked for him until he went (way) too far, and now he must face the consequences of his actions.

Unfortunately, my kid (and those other FG kids that are 2-5 years old) are the bigger losers, since the district school is in shambles. Moreover, there are hundreds of new kids about to move into all those new apartment towers they just built in the area. For obvious reasons, I am not optimistic that the City will find a workable solution.

As a result, I have had to consider the worst fate I can imagine - suburban living.

Posted by: Knickerbocker at June 29, 2009 1:01 PM

The union rep got what he deserved. He's a real tough guy when it comes to little kids. He has a history of assaulting students. Since 2000, he has attacked/physically disciplined 3 students.

The fact that he the school union rep speaks to teachers unions as a whole.

The idea that he is a kindergarten teacher, given his rap sheet, is utterly appalling.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 1:04 PM

As would be typical, it seems that whenever unions are involved there are injustices that would never occur "in the real world."

And some people wonder why I rant on unions.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:13 PM

"The union rep got what he deserved. He's a real tough guy when it comes to little kids. He has a history of assaulting students. Since 2000, he has attacked/physically disciplined 3 students."

See now we are getting somewhere! Why was the Union Rep on school grounds?????!!!!!

He attacked CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This clown attack kids but everyone is all over the Principle because he is Black! Case F***** Closed. See Hypocrites you skirts are showing! F**** Losers LMMFAO!!!!

The What (Got stomped in The Face, LMMFAO!!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 1:16 PM

You moron, what. Nobody cares whether he is black or white.

TIME FOR YOU TO STFU.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:18 PM

"As a result, I have had to consider the worst fate I can imagine - suburban living. "

Knickerbocker, pls see WHat @ 12:47. Never thought a guy who claims to love the old Brooklyn would love the new suburbia.

Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 1:30 PM

Yes, denton. Why didn't he stay there???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:33 PM

"Knickerbocker, pls see WHat @ 12:47. Never thought a guy who claims to love the old Brooklyn would love the new suburbia."

Hey Dumbass don't twist my words! The idiots retards put themselves in to dumbass position! Moving to a neighborhood and want to change everything well move to Park Slope because PS 321 is the best School in the world, Oh I forgot you can't afford Park Slpoe, Sorry...

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 1:35 PM

CSA, if this represents some kind of tribal "victory" for the other guy, i guess you lost? are you the victim here? you've somehow lost out because an out-of-control and possibly unstable individual has been removed as the head of your kid's school? incredible.

Posted by: well_pHed at June 29, 2009 1:37 PM

What is apparently ignoring me, which is fine. He never has much to say of substance anymore except his contrived racist rants.

He's even not enough of a man to acknowledge my apology. He lost all his credibility with his rant about my so-called racism.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:40 PM

What -stop using the word retard as a slur

Posted by: dittoburg at June 29, 2009 1:41 PM

Col. Steve- where are you getting this information on the union rep? I f you're going to accuse him of something, please post your information source.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 1:41 PM

I gotta agree with bxgrl, as much as I hate union reps!!!! :)

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:42 PM

Keaton fucked up. I make no excuse for him.

http://fort-greene.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/doe-segarra-has-disciplinary-record/

Does that change the dynamic of the conversation at all?

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 1:48 PM

It does not excuse Mr. Keaton from criminal prosecution but what is it with the education department and substantiated charges like that??? How many do there need to be before this jackass gets fired???????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:55 PM

Col. Steve- I don't know. All the blog says is that Segarra was accused. Having teachers in my family and friends who teach I have to say just because someone is accused, the charges may or may not be true. So until there's more information on what the charges were and if they were true or not, I'm willing to wait and see. I know teachers who have been attacked by students and when they defended themselves, the teacher was accused of corporal punishment. Other times, the teacher really is at fault and has no business being in a school.

However, there is not much doubt that Keaton whaled on Segarra, during a meeting and in a professional setting. I will say if Segarra is also at fault, he should be dismissed as well. Schools are tough enough with fighting kids, but adults are supposed to be..well...adults.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 1:56 PM

http://fort-greene.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/doe-segarra-has-disciplinary-record/

Does that change the dynamic of the conversation at all?

The What throws Col. Steve Austin a years supply of Skittles!!!!

Yes the Union rep has a history of hitting CHILDREN but due to the Covert Race/Class Warfare The RETARDS that fact is omitted. The RETARDS are hypocrites and well.. RETARDS!!!

The What (RETARDS!!!!!!!!!!!)

Someday these RETARDS are gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 1:59 PM

If you're a teacher accused of assaulting a student, I guess it makes sense to have teacher rep who has a history of assaulting kids and getting away with it representing you.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 1:59 PM

Extremely childish What. Extremely. Notice how fewer and fewer people even bother to respond to you.

LOSER

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:02 PM

At least the Principle kicked another RETARDS Ass and not a child!!!!

He stomped that RETARD in the face, the shoe print matched the wound in his face, ROTFLMMFAO!!!! Good for that RETARD!!!!

The What ( That how you kick a RETARDS Ass)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 2:04 PM

Kids lose.

Posted by: East New York at June 29, 2009 2:11 PM

I can lend you the money for the medication if you can't afford it.

Alternatively, you could pay me back in trade like when you were in lockup.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:12 PM

I had my son at PS 20 for one year, in pre-k. Because of how pre-k was filled that year, the class was overwhelming made up of middle and upper middle class students (of all races). Many stayed on for the next year, kindergarten, but were so appalled by the power-struggles that they bailed during that year or at the end of the year. Keaton just didn't seem that bright. He was tone-deaf as far as what was concerning me as a parent. He walked into a pre-k parents breakfast where we wanted to discuss reading curriculum and he handed out xeroxes of pictures of -sex offenders in the neighborhood. He yelled a lot in the courtyard before school.

While there are some in this thread who take a lot of joy in being provocative to be cute or silly, they are doing so at the expense of children and their parents who are seeking quality public school education. Keaton's misleadership at PS 20 resulted in one year of interested and educated parents seeking that education elsewhere.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 29, 2009 2:12 PM

"the class was overwhelming made up of middle and upper middle class students (of all races)."

Upper Middle Class??? In Fort Greene and Clinton Hill????????!!!!!

"Keaton just didn't seem that bright. He was tone-deaf as far as what was concerning me as a parent."

No he did not Kiss your Ass Putnam, that's the reason!

"He walked into a pre-k parents breakfast where we wanted to discuss reading curriculum and he handed out xeroxes of pictures of -sex offenders in the neighborhood."

What wrong with that???????!!! GOD forbid something happen to your child!

" He yelled a lot in the courtyard before school."

Discipline Bitch, Discipline!

"While there are some in this thread who take a lot of joy in being provocative to be cute or silly, they are doing so at the expense of children and their parents who are seeking quality public school education"

Hey Dumbass no one is forcing you to be here! Move to a better school district and you wont have these "problems" Race Baiter!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 2:17 PM

csa - i don't think anyone who actually read the story assumed that this guy, segarra, is pure as the driven snow or even blameless in the situation (or the teacher he was representing). but it doesn't matter. if segarra's record, whatever is it, doesn't excuse keaton, why should it change the "dynamic" of the conversation about keaton? and defense of keaton using this approach is actually scary to me - you want your kids taught that it's okay to beat on someone because, what, you think he's a bad person? what, exactly, do you think should happen here? because you've thrown a fair amount of mud, but you haven't said what you think is the right result.

Posted by: well_pHed at June 29, 2009 2:19 PM

Why is the What still not banned?

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 29, 2009 2:19 PM

Putnam, is an educated parent better than a non-educated parent? Why the need for such a distinction?

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 2:19 PM

Discipline Bitch, Discipline!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 2:17 PM

I believe that the "b word" is in the same category as the "n word" and the "f word"

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:22 PM

Why is the What still not banned?
Posted by: northsloperenter at June 29, 2009 2:19 PM

Why Dave is not banned for using the "N Word"??????!!!!!!!

Hypocrite!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 2:25 PM

Misogynistic, racist, homophobic, nativist, ablist.

The What really has the whole rainbow doesn't he/she.

Posted by: dittoburg at June 29, 2009 2:34 PM

The primary color divide in FG is green(backs) not skin color.

The wealthy people stick together - and I would guess that at least 30 - 50% of wealthy parents in the FG district are mixed race couples (that's a non-scientific guess, but it's what I see on the playgrounds).

This issue is more about rich v. poor, not black v. white.

I grew up in Manhattan in the West 90s in the 1970s. Same gentrification story then as it is now in FG - except this time I am the one moving in, rather than being pushed out. This also happened to my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents (family arrived in Ellis Is in 1910, we never left NYC - hence my 'Knickerbocker' handle).

This is the way it always goes in NYC. No one 'owns' their hood, we all rent. FG has only been a 'hood' for 40 - 50 years. Everything changes sooner or later. I'm totally used to this issue having lived on both sides of the debate (and having lived within 1/2 mile of the FG area for almost 15 years).

But the argument about PS 20 here seems to have shifted into whether two wrongs make a right (i.e whether Segarra deserved a beat down), not what's best for the school and the ENTIRE community.

Frankly, it is difficult to understand how anyone can defend Keaton on the basis he was 'provoked'. That is not a legal defense, and it is certainly not one that ever flew when I was in NYC schools (when everyone got in trouble).

All of them need to go to jail if any of this is actually true. But as previously said, the kids are the only ones who lose out here. Any efforts which prevent the situation from improving for the kids sake is another crime in progress.

Posted by: Knickerbocker at June 29, 2009 2:34 PM

Knickerbocker, I think overall you have the right perspective. BUT, the only person who has actually said that Segarra deserved a beat down was the What, and he's not very lucid today.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:38 PM

So does anyone have the real details on Segarrra? Or is he going to be ripped apart over allegations that no one seems to have the details on or resolution to?

Is this supposed to be some sort of illustration of a race war? No matter what he does, Keaton gets a pass because he's black? Yes, What- that is such an intelligent way to go through life. Just goes to show how little respect you have for your own people. Any bad behavior is ok, because you can use color as the excuse? I don't know a single Black person (both friends and in my family) who would agree with you- they have much higher expectations and goals. And achievements. Which they earned the hard way.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 2:38 PM

Of course the What is going to come after you on that one, bxgrl. But he won't have an intelligent argument. he'll just call you a bunch of names.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:42 PM

well pHed,

Consensus among the FG Stroller Set was that Mr. Keaton had to go in order to make PS20 a better school. The principal is GONE; a casualty of the FG Tribe Wars(though entirely self inflicted). What happens to him from here, is up to the courts. But he is no longer the principal. He's GONE.

I don't think its mudslinging to let folks know that a teacher with a history of assaulting students teaches kindergarten children. That certainly relevant.

Moving forward... Was the principal really the ONLY problem with PS20? Now that he is gone, will folks like, PutnamD, send their kids to PS20?

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at June 29, 2009 2:45 PM

DIBS- well, its an honor to be on the same side with you! :-)

He thinks he's some sort of standard bearer and hasn't figured out that what made him so interesting to NY Magazine is long gone. Now he's just a caricature of himself- and a poor one at that.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 2:46 PM

DIBs - but he's funny right?

Posted by: dittoburg at June 29, 2009 2:46 PM

ditto, he's only here for our amusement. We couldn't laugh at all the rest of us because no one else is really as pathetic in that way except maybe PropJoe and cornerbodega.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:49 PM

"Why Dave is not banned"

Because what he said was not offensive. No matter how much you cry about it, it wasn't. The fact that you played the race card and won, doesn't mean you were right.

And just about everything you post these days is utterly offensive garbage.

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 29, 2009 2:50 PM

CSA- you are right. I just want to know the full circumstances of the accusations against Segarra and if he has assaulted children he needs to be in jail- next to Keaton. I don't think you were mudslinging, it's important to know that there are questions in Segarra's record too, but everything depends on what the real facts are (and will we ever know them?)

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 2:53 PM

northsloperenter, he didn't win because I wasn't banned. I finally apologized to him only because it offended him. He still doesn't understand the context within which I used the word. Nor does he understand why I should have commented in the first place (I was invited in with the use of the "f word" as much as he felt he was invited in with the use of the "n word") He's too dense to understand that it was a discussion about the words, not about people and defintely not directed to anyone as a slur. He's just too dense to reason with. He's probably the product of a bad public school with a bad kindergarten teacher who beat him and a principal who was out of control.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:56 PM

And he's never been man enough to acknowledge the apology.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:57 PM

it doesn't make sense to say keaton's a casualty of these "wars" but that his wound was self-inflicted. he did this to himself.

is what the teacher did supposed relevant to the issues with keaton? or is it relevant because it suggests that the school has more problems than other public schools? or is it relevant because teacher's unions are terrible so we all have good reasons not to send our kids to any public school?

in any event, i doubt anyone thought that the principal was the ONLY problem at the school or that the school would be perfect if he were gone. certainly, the vibe between/among the parent groups seems toxic - that alone might be a reason not to consider it. there are a number of public schools in "brownstone brooklyn" with the same kind of ethnic/racial makeup of students (and probably similar class divides) and not all of them are this rancorous. ps 11 is the obvious parallel. it's nice to send your kid to your zoned school, for a lot of reasons, but why would you expect a parent to deal with that kind of stuff if they have other options?

Posted by: well_pHed at June 29, 2009 3:11 PM

I find myself a little disgusted by
The tone of much of what I'm reading
Glad that one lives in Minneapolis
And the other in Cambridge no
But I still care about all the kids
And their parents in our village
That we might find some peace
That someone in a position of power
Might not be pushed and stressed
A fractured, damaged society
Dynamic, anxiety, old wounds

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 29, 2009 3:15 PM

I find myself a little disgusted by
The tone of much of what I'm reading
Glad that one lives in Minneapolis
And the other in Cambridge now
But I still care about all the kids
And their parents in our village
That we might find some peace
That someone in a position of power
Might not be pushed and stressed
A fractured, damaged society
Dynamic, anxiety, old wounds

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 29, 2009 3:17 PM

sorry, but pushing and stressing is just what happens to people in positions of power. if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be in positions of power. particularly ones involving children.

Posted by: well_pHed at June 29, 2009 3:23 PM

dave,

I think he understood exactly the context of what you said, but he saw it as an opportunity to use it as a stick to beat you with.

So, he worked up some fake tears and pretended to have his sensitive little soul wounded and then whined and whimpered for days and days and days until Brownstoner said nobody is allowed to say that big bad word where What might read it, because we all know how easily he is offended by harsh language.

I had very little respect for him before. I have none for him now.

If he doesn't get banned soon or we don't get an "ignore" feature soon, I'll find another web site to browse while killing time at work.

He no longer posts here to express a point of view. He posts here to take pleasure in being offensive. I suppose one could argue he wasn't always a worthless troll, but that's all he is now.

And my tolerance for his contrived litany of complaints is nearing its end.

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 29, 2009 3:25 PM

nsr- agreed. What is desperately trying to be relevant and so failing.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 3:37 PM

I'm inclined to pull for Keaton. It just sounds like an attack by twee parents on a principal who isn't toadying to their dictates.

Listen, I worked at an extremely large, blue chip firm, a firm so besieged by parents calling to find out why little Chloe or Nate wasn't being promoted faster and mentored every step that HR was finally forced to dedicate an office whose sole function is to field calls from parents. From fighting to get their kids in the right preschool straight through to college, these parents are accustomed to dictating to school personnel to ensure their kids' career track.

Comparing Keaton to Mugabe is typical of the mindset...because anyone who doesn't follow their directives is just the WORST...PERSON....EVER!!! That's the mentality.

Posted by: bridges at June 29, 2009 4:09 PM

You actually should have an "ignore" feature, hopefully by September...

Posted by: brownstoner at June 29, 2009 4:39 PM

bridges that is incredible! The American spirit is in serious decline these days.

Posted by: infinitejester at June 29, 2009 4:41 PM

PS20 is NOT a failed or failing school. It has excellent test scores and sends its graduates on to success in middle school and high school.

There's certainly no defending Keaton for what he apparently did to the union rep. But the conflict between old timers and newbies will re-emerge. I really hope the principal who is selected is able to handle both groups with respect.

Posted by: rf at June 29, 2009 4:43 PM

"You actually should have an "ignore" feature, hopefully by September...

Posted by: brownstoner at June 29, 2009 4:39 PM"

Please do it! Thank you so much Brownstoner just kill the site! Thank you thank you!

Th What (Victory)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 4:46 PM

rf- if it's not one conflict, it'll be another. I would be looking at Keaton for his accomplishments, but beating up another person- a colleague no less- really makes it a moot issue. If anything it is much more important that school management be able to work through difficult situations without freaking out.

On the other hand bridges really does address another problem- the air of entitlement many people have- and they probably were making Keaton's life difficult. But he was doing himself no favors- in his position it was up to him to resolve conflicts, work with parents and teachers, and show real leadership. A bad situation all around and the kids lose.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 5:00 PM

Who wants to send their kid to a school where the infighting is so vicious and pronounced? Good test scores are an important consideration, but so is a stable learning environment. Discipline is a tried and true way to provide that kind of environment, but it appears that the principal was a bad tempered individual, or to be kinder, maybe the kind of person who likes to rock the boat and shake the trees. Good riddance to that. I hope the next principal is up to the task, and has better luck. He or She will need it.

Posted by: architect66 at June 29, 2009 5:04 PM

So far I haven't heard from anyone else who has had or has kids at PS 20. CSA, parents don't have to be educated to be interested in their children's education, but I want my kid to go to school with other children who are read to at home, whose parents value booklearning and arts and science; that's what I mean by educated. Keaton's constant screaming at children in the schoolyard and focus on very basic and inflammatory security issues (no I don't think my child is safer if his principal is wasting valuable time scanning sex offenders photos - most sexual abuse is committed by family members and friends) was alien to me. To some extent parents want to replicate themselves and their values in their children. It is perhaps easy to disparage those of us who thought PS 20 wasn't up to snuff, as well the kind of people who say things like "not up to snuff", but that's pretty facile. I am not sure if the people I know in the neighborhood will give PS 20 another chance - we've all found other places for our kids. My son is at PS 261, which he loves. Other parents more focused on developing a local school were more welcomed at PS 11. The next year or so is going to be continued turmoil at PS 20 - why would anyone return there.

One of the recurring themes I detect in these threads is a sense of outrage and bewilderment by long-term residents that the old institutions aren't considered good enough by newcomers. Why do you want to change the school my sister went to, why do you want to change the commercial mix on Fulton Street, why do you want to tell your neighbor to turn down the music at 3 am. I think one of the pernicious effects of racism and classism in America is that it isolates the marginalized in a way which numbs them to the true injustice of their condition. They accept and begin to defend substandard services and conditions in a mistaken over-identification with the conditions of their disempowered position in society. That is not to say that the newcomers are not over-ready to throw out the baby with the bath water or brush aside the new to create coalitions so all could feel like stakeholders.

Perhaps Sean KEaton could have been a good principal - he was earnest energetic, concerned. But sometimes that is not enough.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 29, 2009 5:05 PM

"You actually should have an "ignore" feature, hopefully by September..."

Great news.

Guess who will be first against the wall when the ignore feature arrives...

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 29, 2009 6:16 PM

bxgrl,

I am not defending Keaton! Not at all!

But I think there's definitely an issue here for the black parents at this school. When I lived in Clinton Hill and was looking for an elementary school for my daughter (she started Kindergarten in 2001), I heard good stuff about PS20, but ruled it out because without seriously considering it, due to the logistics of getting her there. PS20 has always been a successful school. Regardless of the conflict with and around Keaton, I think that newbies have shown a lack of respect for that success and for the families who sent their kids there because they wanted a structured learning environment.

My daughter is Chinese, and I wound up sending her to a Chinatown school which also has a structured learning environment. I can only speak first-hand about her school (not about PS20). Many white parents who live in the zone of the Chinatown school avoid it. When you talk to them, they say that the school is rigid, that children are not respected, that parents are not allowed to have input in their children's education. This is absolutely not true--the structure gives the students the opportunity to learn their subjects as well as work and social skills that will help them throughout their lives. And the principal is extremely open and available to parents.

Keaton is gone. But the basic conflict he failed to resolve is still there. I hope the DOE appoints a principal who respects both sides. In Greenwich Village, 2 schools share a zone: PS41 is more "traditional" and PS3 is more "progressive." Perhaps something like this can be worked out for PS20 and PS11.

Posted by: rf at June 29, 2009 6:20 PM

By the way, schools are required by law to hand out pictures of sex offenders who have moved into the neighborhood, so Keaton was just complying with the law in this case.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 6:31 PM

Uh, schools are not required to hand out photos of sex offenders. That's just silly. In any case, the issue was that for most of the parents in that meeting it was a wasted opportunity to talk about education. Keaton seemingly had no sense we were all stunned by what he thought was important. Much like a teacher who's handle on a webset indicates s/he is just counting the years to retirement, perhaps?

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 29, 2009 6:46 PM

Putnam,

No, my handle counts the number of years I've lived in Brooklyn. Please refrain from making assumptions about me.

Perhaps it's not the law, but only DOE policy that requires schools to hand out photos of sex offenders. I'm not saying Keaton's a good principal, if that's what you're reading into my comments.

Thanks for playing!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 6:53 PM

Fair enough. I apologize.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 29, 2009 6:55 PM

Apology accepted.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 6:57 PM

I can't wait to be ignored! When no one is reading my insanity, I win! Victory! The war will be over and I won't be able to celebrate with all of you because you will ignore me!

If I have completely lost my mind, do I need medication any more?

Posted by: ghettoazzpnkbtch at June 29, 2009 8:14 PM

rf- Sorry- I actually was agreeing with you in general. My writing isn't always clear :-)

ghettoazzpnkbtch- where've you been? We missed your humor.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 29, 2009 8:31 PM

navigating the public school system in NYC is tricky business. i personally really don't understand exactly why or what "progressive" is actually. also, i don't buy into oversimplifications of class or race. each kid is different and each school may have good or bad teachers or situations that affect each family differently. it's unfortunate to tarnish a schools image overall when a particular class or teacher may be great for your kid. at our last school my kid became great friends with a white boy whose parents are true artist bohemians, an italian boy, a hispanic boy and a black girl from the projects. on a local parent's board, a woman complained that the school was too conservative, but it was a terrific experience for our kid.

we chose a pre-k that is well regarded by inside schools but was given a bad rap a few years ago by a handful of parents. we inspected for ourselves and really liked the teachers, the classrooms, the general program and the principal.

this sounds like a crazy situation, but i hope local parents can still try to analyze the school with an open mind. i am more optimistic than most about races and classes co-existing than some and especially more than the what.

Posted by: wine lover at June 29, 2009 8:34 PM

(bxgrl: Unlike the What, I have been very busy with work. I will try to get back in the groove later this week.)

Posted by: ghettoazzpnkbtch at June 29, 2009 8:45 PM

I almost never agree with wine lover on anything, but s/he hit the nail on the head with this one. "One size fits all" does NOT apply to education. I wish someone would tell that to our politicians - yes, of BOTH parties.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at June 29, 2009 9:32 PM

"I think one of the pernicious effects of racism and classism in America is that it isolates the marginalized in a way which numbs them to the true injustice of their condition. "

Crack pipe alert! Putnam please stop! Has things gotten better in Clinton Hill yes but there is room for improvement!

"They accept and begin to defend substandard services and conditions in a mistaken over-identification with the conditions of their disempowered position in society. "

Oh no Putnam you don't really believe that, right? Being Black in America come with a price. Things are already substandard from birth. You see the jail full of young Black men while The kleptocracy robs everyone blind!

"That is not to say that the newcomers are not over-ready to throw out the baby with the bath water or brush aside the new to create coalitions so all could feel like stakeholders"

Stop that you know you want a new "Utopia" for all you "Buds"...

"this sounds like a crazy situation, but i hope local parents can still try to analyze the school with an open mind. i am more optimistic than most about races and classes co-existing than some and especially more than the what.'

Co in what?? No Winelover you want it all.. Come on say it.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 29, 2009 9:45 PM

I want all of your children to get the same sub-par education I did!

Posted by: ghettoazzpnkbtch at June 29, 2009 10:12 PM

"have things" not "has things". I have no idea "what" you are talking about. Truly incomprehensible.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 29, 2009 10:18 PM

bxgirl wrote:
On the other hand bridges really does address another problem- the air of entitlement many people have- and they probably were making Keaton's life difficult. But he was doing himself no favors- in his position it was up to him to resolve conflicts, work with parents and teachers, and show real leadership. A bad situation all around and the kids lose.

I agree the kids lose out. Listen. I went to PS41 back in the stone age, and we came from all classes..from kids who lived in SROs to the comfortably well off. So I know it can HELP poor kids to be educated along with wealthier kids because the parents of those children are more likely to get results when they insist their children be educated. As always, money talks.

However that took place in a more respectful climate. There may have been parents who WANTED to walk their children to the classroom every day, but would not INSIST on it. I can easily imagine the angry, thwarted entitlement Keaton had to deal with from parents accustomed to treating everyone ELSE as an underling.

Posted by: bridges at June 30, 2009 9:43 AM

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June 29, 2009

Race, Class and P.S. 20's Controversial Principal

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