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June 29, 2009
House of the Day: 357 Pacific Street
It will come as no surprise to long-time readers that we don't tend to like renovations that try to maintain a traditional style but that end of looking too shiny and new; we like to see a little authentic imperfection in a brownstone—a creaky floorboard, an plaster wall that's not perfectly straight, a crown molding that shows its age. So, while the owners of this new listing at 357 Pacific Street clearly put a lot of work into their renovation, the place just isn't for us. Which is probably a good thing, since we couldn't swing the $2,499,000 price tag anyway. We'll see whether the 17-foot width hurts the single-family home's chances.
357 Pacific Street [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
It looks like there are crown moldings and that door casing is rather nice. I'm not seeing issues with the renovation. No, its not a restoration. Frankly there are not enough photos to know.
However, if those are engineered floors, that's deal killer for me. Thay always sound like you're walking on plastic.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:22 PM
"we like to see a little authentic imperfection in a brownstone—a creaky floorboard, an plaster wall that's not perfectly straight, a crown molding that shows its age."
A few mice running around, coupla waterbugs, maybe some fabric wrapped wire, some screw fuses that blow when you run the toaster and the microwave at the same time. lol.
Interiors look 16' wide.
Still, nice house for a family who doesn't need the rental income.
Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 1:22 PM
I like to click on the "Mortgage Calculator" because it makes me laugh...
$13,847.00 per month. That's $166,164 per year.
I know about 3 people that earn that much in TOTAL per year. All I'm saying by pointing this out is that the person buying this home better damn well realize they are RICH and not a member of the "middle class." You're as much in the middle class as 36th Street is "South Park Slope."
But of course... the rebuttal is, I'm not rich, this is New York!
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 1:25 PM
(Oh... and by laugh, I pretty much mean the opposite.)
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 1:26 PM
Not enough pictures to know. Floor plan is very nice, but based from one of the two interior photos, which was a kitchen that was not my style, I don't like it. If they can afford a major renovation with major systems, expensive appliances, etc., then why couldn't they spend 150k or so on a carpenter to install period style or high quality flooring. I understand sometimes that original flooring must be ripped out sometimes because it's too thin to withstand another sanding, or it's rotted, etc., but that's not an excuse to skimp on an installation of nice and appropriate flooring.
The windows look large which is a plus.
Posted by: cmar7785 at June 29, 2009 1:30 PM
One block down, on Pacific Street between Bond & Nevins, are two 20' wide brownstones with rental income, both asking in the same ballpark.
The bottom-floor kitchen/dining room makes poor use of the space. Everyone ends up hanging in the kitchen, which is cramped and uncomfortable, and the parlor floor hardly gets used.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at June 29, 2009 1:31 PM
I like the kitchen and dining room off the garden floor. It makes sense that the fridge would be close to the grilling spot. Families spend all their time in the kitchen and it allows the kiddies to run inside and outside with supervision. The garden floor is large enough for a sitting nook it in the kitchen with couch, recliner etc. It makes the backyard part of the living space. I think that's a major benefit to this place... but hey, I'm a gardener and cook :) all my favorite parts on the house on the same level works for me
Posted by: cmar7785 at June 29, 2009 1:34 PM
t6, as has been said by others, a lot of people sell Manhattan properties that have appreciated greatly from what they paid and use the profit to buy a house like this. I've also noted how many people get family help when buying.
Also, you forget that there are many two income couples in NYC today. Certainly they'd be rich by national standards, but not so by NYC standards.
Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 1:35 PM
denton, in additional to Manhattanite transplants, I started seeing the trend with some Long Island folks as well. A few of my friend's parents are selling their rather large houses in LI as soon as the kids are out of the house and off to college, and buying either condos or smaller brownstones in Brownstone Brooklyn.
Posted by: Kensingtonian at June 29, 2009 1:40 PM
Denton... really? You're holding on to "middle class" for a place with a $14,000 monthly mortgage payment?! (not counting the 1/3 of a million dollar down payment required to get that monthly payment).
OK -- I'll let you have it. Middle Class includes folks that have a family income of $500,000 a year. It's NYC after all! That's only like $75,000 a year in Omaha.
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 1:41 PM
Amending my post, 433 Pacific Street, previously a HOTD, appears to be off the market.
411 Pacific Street, also a nearly-new renovation, is still available for a comparatively cheap 2.475:
http://www.brownharrisstevens.com/detail.aspx?id=993912
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at June 29, 2009 1:43 PM
Oh and by the way, the Manhattan transplant argument to maintain your "middle class" status is bullshit.
The kid who inherits $500 million... is he rich? According to you, no, because that was a one time thing and he only makes $40,000 at his job.
The sale of the overinflated property in Manhattan *enriched* the seller... i.e., made that person RICH. A $2 million house is NOT middle class, no matter how you slice it. It very amusing that folks paying this amount of money want to cling to being "connected" to something they are not. I guess it helps ease the guilt as the watch the *real* middle class lose their homes and forced out of the city because of the housing market they've created... "I'm middle class and I can afford it."
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 1:48 PM
I think this whole "middle class" argument is ridiculous. Either somebody can afford something or they cannot.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 1:51 PM
t6, someone is buying these houses.
If you close for $2 million, and put a million down, you could pull off the mortgage (30 yr fixed @6.25%) with an annual income of $350-400k.
Not out of the question for a 2 income family in NYC. I'd call them upper middle class, for sure, not middle. Not teacher/fire/police middle class. But banker/lawyer middle upper middle class.
To me rich means not having to go to work tomorrow. But that's a whole other discussion :-)
Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 2:00 PM
t6, I never tried to define 'rich', I was only pointing out that any number of people can afford these houses, and do, because they are being bought and closed on. I sat on the board of a coop in PS for a number of years, so I see where people get their money. Anyway, dibs is right, people can either afford things or not.
Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 2:08 PM
whatever class it is, I actually really like the interiors.
forget about wanting "original baseboards" or whatnot, my one requirement is a modern kitchen and that one looks like a beauty.
I think it still retains the charm, but just looks cleaner - like the sellers filled in the cracks and slapped a fresh paint job on. The location isn't my cup of tea, but the house, not bad at all..
Posted by: secondbecky at June 29, 2009 2:16 PM
denton- give me a call when you have a chance.
I will have to disagree with you John, I like the reno, just make sure my floors are hardwood.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at June 29, 2009 2:16 PM
Heck, a dual income couple who takes in $300K in this city is certainly upper middle class. And still couldn't afford this place...
They'd be rich anywhere else...
Posted by: secondbecky at June 29, 2009 2:18 PM
Denton, do tell -- where do all these people get their money? if a lot of it is inherited, it makes me feel like less of a loser for my sad financial career. I still live in the servant's quarters of a "middle class" family's brownstone in the slope. (strange place for an evil banker, no?)
I think middle class is anyone who has to work, which has a very high upper end in NYC. and I don't see why I need to feel bad that "working class" folks can't afford 2MM townhouses. That's why we have Queens. I also don't understand why we insist on new affordable units, when the entire borough of Queens is affordable, and when we don't restrict the lotteries to people who actually live in the neighborhood that people are being "forced out of". what a sham.
Posted by: joe_the_bummer at June 29, 2009 2:38 PM
"I think middle class is anyone who has to work, which has a very high upper end in NYC." Agreed.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 2:40 PM
Not my taste either but I'm sure a lot of people will like this. FWIW, the floor plan is designed with a center staircase to maximize the width of the narrow house. (You still end up with a small side room, here identified as the "library," on the front door level.)
Posted by: mopar at June 29, 2009 2:58 PM
The entire borough of Queens is "affordable"?!
People are being "forced out" because of what is considered affordable. I'm not a communist... people can afford what people can afford.
But stretching the "upper limit" of what is middle class to such a ridiculous level is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A house that was $800k 10 years ago is now going for $2.4 million... We skyrocketed through many tax brackets to find the happy couple that finds the new price affordable.
The "This is NYC" argument is equally as ridiculous. Working class folk shouldn't be able to afford a $2MM townhouse. But a *real* middle class person should probably be able to find an apartment in Brooklyn without having to live on the edge and live a modestly comfortable existence... and I include renters here. The $2MM townhouse that some "upper middle class" person buys causes the studio apartment to be $1/2 million + $800/mo for maintenance. Or the rent to be $2,500/mo. That's how people are "forced" out.
This buy what you can afford (even if it's not true) is a sickness....
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 2:59 PM
300-400k is upper middle class? That just made my head explode
Posted by: dirty_hipster at June 29, 2009 3:00 PM
By the way... by your combined arguments above, if you just sold you place in Manhattan, got your grandma's inheritance then MOVED TO QUEENS as you suggest we all do... you ALSO would not have to work. Thus, NOT Middle Class!!!
You make $500,000 or more a year and *choose* to buy a $2 or $3MM home -- just because you have to keep on working to pay that absurd mortgage doesn't make you less rich. It makes you rich because you could have basically retired, but chose not to.
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 3:09 PM
As usual, this thread is off an unrelated and unresolvable tangent.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at June 29, 2009 3:12 PM
I don't really understand the point of this conversation. As was said, you can afford what you can afford. You certainly CAN find affordable housing in prime Brooklyn neighborhoods on a middle class income. It's just going to be a smaller place, or a little further out on the train. Tyburg, the only alternative to what you are always talking about seems to be communism. Is that your preference?
Posted by: 11217 at June 29, 2009 3:15 PM
I'm with you, tybur6. Some are still lost in the euphoria of 2007 and can't get out.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 29, 2009 3:24 PM
"I don't really understand the point of this conversation."
I'll explain it to you in plain english: PRICES ARE GONNA GET FUCKIN' MURDERED!
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 29, 2009 3:30 PM
BHO, it's clear from the weekly postings of Last Weeks Biggest Sales, that people aren't "lost in the euphoria of 2007" but merely going on with their lives and buying $1mm, $2mm and $3mm houses because they can and because they want to.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 3:31 PM
Wow, What, I mean BHO...always adding the really insightful commentary here.
You're a genius!!!!!
Posted by: 11217 at June 29, 2009 3:32 PM
But DIBS... you can't argue they are truly "middle class" and in any way, shape or form should consider themselves as part of the national conversation concerning the middle class??!!
Let's accept that the $2MM and $3MM homes are *worth* that much... if someone decides to pony up that sort of cash, you can't argue that "because they have to work" they are middle class! They could simply move to Queens as Joe suggests and retire. They, in fact, don't need to work. They are, in fact, not middle class.
The purchasers of these multi-million dollar homes are more than Upper Middle Class... they are more than well-heeled... they are effing' rich. And it makes me angry that they (you?) insinuate themselves into the greater conversation about the middle class.
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 3:38 PM
What's the big deal with whether a buyer is middle class or not?
I agree that real estate prices generally are out of whack with incomes. That said, I don't see much evidence that high costs are forcing essential people out of the region (it doesn't matter whether they live in NYC itself or not). A thread about a house priced at $2mm+ is not the right forum for that debate anyway.
Posted by: etson at June 29, 2009 3:43 PM
Then define middle class.
Like I said earlier, this is a ridiculous discussion. Believe it or not, middle class is not the same thing in New york City as it is in the majority of the country outside of 4, maybe 5 cities.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 3:43 PM
You grow up "upper middle class" the son or daughter of a physician, accountant, engineer or small business owner.
You get a job in publishing, journalism, graphic design, advertising, etc. making around $120,000.
You buy a small 2-bedroom apartment on the upper east/west side for $350,000 in 1999 with a little help from your parents.
Your parents/grandparents/favorite uncle pass away leaving you an estate worth over a million dollars.
You sell your small apartment for a post-boom $950,000.
You negotiate the price down to $2.0 mil.
You put down $1.5, easily get a 500k mortgage and you've still got a coupla hundred thou in reserve.
This is just one of a zillion scenarios (and no, alas it is not mine.)
Posted by: manofelt at June 29, 2009 3:52 PM
Joe, don't get bummed out :-)
From what I have seen in any number of places, people are able to afford residences in 'prime' hoods, thru one of the following, and in this order:
-sale of a Manhattan apt;
-often combined with the above, 'gifts' from well off relatives. Note that the two income couple model gives the couple at least four potential parental sources, plus other relatives.
-last, and least frequent, trust funds.
You can debate what income equals what class, but from where I sit rich people live in Manhattan.
Posted by: denton at June 29, 2009 3:57 PM
WOW...I've been ranting on and on and on for over a year about how so many Brooklyn brownstones can be bought by anyone who has owned a condo in Manhattan and has gains on it...and theres are tens of thousands who still have significant gains even after prices have fallen. and can buy places like this. And most of the Team Bear members think I'm being ridiculous yet there are three or four others with the same viewpoint here today.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 29, 2009 4:01 PM
Sure they could move to Queens, but then we wouldn't be talking about what it's like to be middle class in the "prime" locations of Brooklyn!
Sure you can say "just move to Brownsville" and you could be rich!
Posted by: secondbecky at June 29, 2009 4:08 PM
I'm not saying folks shouldn't necessarily pay $2mm for this house... though, it does seems a little on the ridiculous side to pay that much for a house, in general. But that's an aside.
The issue that I brought up is that someone buying a $2MM house is ANY city is not middle class. Simple as that.
You want me to define "middle class"??!! I've accepted your definition. Someone that must work.
And my argument is that someone who pays $2MM for a house does not have to work!! They choose to tie up their enormous amount of cash and significant income in a overinflated house. I don't care about Teams Bear and Bull... you guys can speculate on the absurdities of the Brooklyn housing market all you want.
I just want everyone in a multi-million dollar house to admit they are rich and admit they don't have the same hardships as a *real* person in middle class America (including NYC).
Posted by: tybur6 at June 29, 2009 4:16 PM
tybur6 has a point on the absolute threshold that +$2mm makes you very well off - in any city. However, reality is that choices are made from a relative standpoint up and down the spectrum of wealth..
the sense of entitlement to certain neighborhoods in this thread is troubling.
most people/families buying the real estate reviewed on this site are working (their ass off) to buy a nice place to life at all price points rent and own. some probably had help - others thru old fashion work and save.
Posted by: boerumite at June 29, 2009 5:14 PM
...also thru equity appreciation during the work/save years/decades
Posted by: boerumite at June 29, 2009 5:15 PM
So, um, what do you all think of the fake shiny wood here? It reminds me of fake antiques. Is that lower class, middle class, or upper middle class, or rich?
Posted by: mopar at June 29, 2009 5:16 PM
I say this sells for no more than 1.5.
Posted by: wasder at June 29, 2009 5:39 PM
Why Wasder? Because it's a one family?
Posted by: mopar at June 29, 2009 5:50 PM
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