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June 22, 2009

House of the Day: 329 Adelphi Street

This listing at 329 Adelphi Street makes us wish we had both the means and the time for a renovation project! The Civil War-era wood house has lots of original detail, according to the listing, but needs a head-to-toe restoration. (Even if the interior is a wreck, we still wish the brokers would include a few more photos.) The condition isn't a huge surprise given that the house hasn't changed hands in 40 years! We've heard from a couple of people who've already looked at it and the consensus seems to be that, while an incredible house, the asking price of $950,000 is very high given the amount of dough that will need to be sunk into this place.
329 Adelphi Street [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark

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I absolutely love this house, so with all the love and respect for this pretty place, my estimate does not fit on the widget. I would say $550,000 does the deal. Of course, the lucky buyer will get to spend that much again to make it sing.

Posted by: Maly at June 22, 2009 1:20 PM

I have a meeting set up with the broker to see this house tonight. It all depends upon whether I feel that I have the time, inclination, stamina, etc to go through a gut renovation in a landmarked building.

The exterior is actually in pretty good shape. it is shingle with a brick foundation. The shingles could be powerwashed and the cornices & porch stripped and repainted and you'd get another 10 years out of the shingles.

There is supposedly plaster detail on the first floor only. It needs all new plumbing, electric & HVAC. I need to determine what shape the foundation is in and whether there is termite damage. I don't know how much of the top floor has a full height ceiling.

I'm quite interested in what all these fireplaces look like.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 1:24 PM

What do you all think this is worth if it were restored to perfection??? I say $1.2-1.5 MM. The renovation will be $400-500,000

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 1:26 PM

DIBS--your question is a good one. I would think 1.2 would be a very good price for this place renovated. So if you can get it for 800 and renovate for 400 you have a house in a stellar location at a (for Ft Greene) very reasonable price. One would have to have a lot of capital on hand to make it happen though.

Posted by: wasder at June 22, 2009 1:30 PM

I think your numbers are pretty close, maybe a tad optimistic but not by much. Of course, the unknown is whether you are catching a falling knife. I think as a labor of love it would be worth it, but it would be a very chancy investment.

Posted by: Maly at June 22, 2009 1:31 PM

Dibs, Godspeed. Wouldn't it be easier to just get another boyfriend? Some of your fav posters(belly achers) will have LPC on speed dial if you do buy.

Posted by: DeLepp at June 22, 2009 1:31 PM

It's really charming. I think it will be very expensive to renovate because it's all exposed and on a corner. Everything will have to be on the up and up.

Posted by: Maly at June 22, 2009 1:35 PM

Dave, keep us updated tomorrow about your walk through.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at June 22, 2009 1:41 PM

Maly...I'm operating for now, under the assumption that the exterior is in good enought shape to clean/strip/repaint. Yes, windows will need to be replaced but that's expected. Aside from the windows, nothing else needs to be replaced except the front steps and railings. These are atandard issues with LPC. Tey get ornery when "changes" are proposed.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 1:42 PM

dibs...it would be great if you could post a follow up tomorrow after your viewing!

Posted by: binnyG at June 22, 2009 1:43 PM

And pictures, DIBS! take pictures!

Posted by: bxgrl at June 22, 2009 1:43 PM

Dibs, would love to hear update tomorrow about fireplaces. Olea Meditterian Taverna is across the street if you're in need of quick drink/bite after the walk thru.

Posted by: DeLepp at June 22, 2009 1:46 PM

Imagine what a stunning garden you could do on that corner lot!

Posted by: 11217 at June 22, 2009 1:48 PM

The place next door sold for $1,457,000 in 2007, and needed a fair bit of renovation work. It was a larger place though, I think, and never looked as neglected as #329.

Posted by: 1842 at June 22, 2009 1:51 PM

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/03/residential_sal_79.php

Link to 331 Adelphi sale...

Posted by: 1842 at June 22, 2009 1:52 PM

Dave- This place is very similar to the place we've been working on for the last year. Hats off to you if you take on a wood frame. They are way underappreciated in this area, and many of them predate the brownstones.

Curious to hear what the real condition is. Many people assume a gut renovation when sometimes you can tread more lightly on the house and still make it pretty good. Is the electric two wire exposed? Cloth? Is the plumbing all original? In a lot of ways, the wood houses are easier to work on and restore, as long as they have sound foundations and no termites.

Also- if you ever do buy it, looking forward to comiserating with you on finding a good wooden stoop restorer in Brooklyn.

Posted by: Park Place at June 22, 2009 1:54 PM

Good luck, DIBS! As a shingle house owner, be advised that powerwashing is generally not recommended; it can be too damaging.

However, if this is a gut job, you can add a lot of insulation from the inside, which I'm sure this house needs.

Posted by: tinarina at June 22, 2009 1:54 PM

dibs, I think you may over-estimating the cost of renovating this little house. It is just a matter of new mechanical systems (cheap) and sheetrock and plasterwork (not that expensive) and a new kitchen and two new baths. I say you could do it for $250,000. It isn't a big place like a brownstone, it is a little country cottage almost.
The widget did not accept my sale price, which is 530,000.

Posted by: sam at June 22, 2009 1:55 PM

I would be very interested to know - it looks to me as if there is much more to work on. Let us know about the details, the lack of interior pics is reqlly frustrating.

Posted by: Maly at June 22, 2009 1:55 PM

Sounds like everyone assumes Dave is going to buy this place!

Posted by: wasder at June 22, 2009 1:57 PM

Thanks 1842. That was 2007 but this looks to be a much larger house.

Having looked at the exterior of 329, I don't believe its that neglected. Because of the overgrown yard, it looks more "neglected" than it really is. We shall see.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 1:58 PM

Dibs - I agree w/ Sam that you're overestimating costs esp. if you do a lot of d-i-y. Can't wait to learn your impressions after this evening.

Posted by: Arkady at June 22, 2009 2:03 PM

sam, you're right...this is not a large house.

This house does need 3 1/2 baths though!!!!!!! I was surprised to see the powder room on the first floor.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 2:03 PM

Dave, it could be a really stunning house. Don't over-do the appliances and such, think "country". You could get 1.4 million for it if you could figure out a way to sneak in a parking spot somehow from the side.

Posted by: sam at June 22, 2009 2:08 PM

This place is about 1,600 sq. ft NOT including the third floor (not sure how much of that is actually full-height ceiling). What it does not have, which I really think is essential is a third room on the first floor as a family room. I think anything above $1MM in Brooklyn needs a formal LR, a formal DR, a good size kitchen + a family room.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 2:16 PM

I went and saw this house about 2 or 3 weeks ago. I think $4-500,000 is underestimating the costs of refurbing. ALL of the floors are nearly destroyed and sagging, the staircases were reminiscent of slides, and all the rooms are chopped up in the strangest arrangement. The exterior is truly the best part at this point.

The top floor has "full height" ceilings only for the one bedroom in the middle of the floor, the other two (they didn't call bedrooms, appropriately) have sloped ceilings that go down to less than 4 feet, if I remember correctly. And that basement, it made me sad to think that people were clearly living down there.

As for the garden, which was actually pretty amazing, albeit overgrown, it was severely cut into because of the extension off the back of the house, and has some water features that limit any standing space even.

It is a beautiful place, though, and if someone has the patience and means ($) to make it shine again it will be truly amazing. The practically floor to ceiling windows on the parlor floor were spectacular. This is no DIY job by any means, unless you are a seasoned contractor.

I'll be interested to see if you agree DIBS.

Posted by: amt230 at June 22, 2009 2:18 PM

Haven't been inside, but the owner of this place recently died. Apparently it was packed to the gills with stuff, a la Collyer Brothers. I think the good news is this house has been neglected, not ruined through half-assed renos, etc. The garden was on a the garden tour years ago--it was amazingly charming and secluded for the location, if I recall.

Posted by: tinarina at June 22, 2009 2:20 PM

tinarina...the broker did mention something about the garden actually being quite nice if you cut away all the overgrowth. I couldn't even tell what the fence was like!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 2:23 PM

hey, why is that comment review feature holding my comment? I've commented plenty before.

Posted by: amt230 at June 22, 2009 2:24 PM

I guess DIBS is the only person left in Brooklyn (or on this blog) with the wherewithall to buy a house? That block is one of my favorites.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 22, 2009 2:25 PM

Ahhhhh, Putnamdenizen, you haven't been following Last Weeks Biggest Sales here on brownstoner every week. This house won't even make that list!!!! Plenty of people with a lot more money than me buying homes in Brooklyn every week.

This is the intro for a heated discussion from BHO, cornerbodega and the other members of team Bear!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 2:30 PM

What a beautiful house. As long as it remains a one family, the layout seems absolutely ideal. (OK, maybe you could put a powder room on the top floor -- but I wouldn't think you'd actually be using all the bedrooms as bedrooms, in which case it wouldn't really matter.) Personally, I detest combined family/kitchen rooms. But I agree most people these days do want them.

I don't see how you'd put one of those in here, though. A big farmhouse table in the kitchen ought to do the trick.

Can't wait to hear about the detail, wiring, plumbing, Dave.

Posted by: mopar at June 22, 2009 2:31 PM

Great, I love the current look.

Posted by: dittoburg at June 22, 2009 2:35 PM

good luck dibs. Looks like a nice place. I like the ad, the most honest we've seen in a while!

Posted by: denton at June 22, 2009 2:39 PM

David,
A family room? Hhhh...So you can sit in there with the family and watch CSI every night?...

Anyway, it'd be nice if you took this house over. Woody and Dan lived here for 40 years and were a very lovely couple.

And, I agree that you can definitely freshen up the house for a lot less money than some people would lead you to believe. It is not a huge brownstone or brick rowhouse.

The windows may be able to be restored/refurbished to a large extent...and sad to say, but luckily, you can add storm windows, including the new double-glazed ones, without getting approval from Landmarks. If they're well done (i.e. not the cheapo version), storm windows might be a decent way of saving a lot on the cost of completely new windows, give you the option to have screens in summer and keep the historic windows in place.

Listen, their house is not such a wreck. Yes, it IS cottagy and needs work but still, it's not falling into the earth that I know of.

It has a nice entry door...and they used to keep the streetside garden all the way around very nice. There was always something blooming. The yellow broom that was still blooming last weekend is VERY sweetly scented...very lovely although a bit too bright, intense yellow for my gardening taste...still though worth leaving. And the poncirus trifolate ("orange") is a nice specimen.

Frankly, I would redo certain areas of shingling entirely. This would be a much cheaper affair in New England to have done--am not sure who is good for this in Brooklyn--but I think you really would have to do some reshingling done on the extension.

Other than that, the house has and many decades of positive energy and only got a little ramshackly the last couple of years after Woody passed away.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 22, 2009 2:47 PM

And now I'm depressed thinking about Woody and Dan. They were very nice people. Sigh, sigh, sigh...sniff...

All is vanity I guess and we're only here for a brief moment.

I hope someone can make this a happy home again.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 22, 2009 2:52 PM

I dunno about some family room on 1st floor. I don't even recall seeing anyor many townhouses with that even well over $1m.
This kind/age of house is expected to have a quirky layout.
Parlor layout looks fine way it is except I don;t see any door to garden from back/kitchen. And 3 1/2 baths is at least 1 bat too many. I know you seem to have a bath fetish but helluca a lot of money - unless you plan on occupying for yourself...and why would you need 3 and a 1/2.
Basement maybe could be used as 'family room' - looks like has windows - but who knows what ceiling height is.(it does show a powder room on that level also).
Maybe a 2nd bath on bedroom level - and if top floor is real short - just combine rooms and make like office or sex den.

Posted by: Petebklyn at June 22, 2009 2:59 PM

This place could be cool but it is small. I think no matter how much money you put into it it will not be worth more then a million dollars under Obama(next 8 years)

Posted by: brickoven at June 22, 2009 2:59 PM

BrooklynGreene...thanks for that bit of history. Christ, I sound like I already own it and that's probably not even going to happen. Funny you should mention the "Scottish brooms." I have a number of them out on the Cape and I really love them.

Yes, a shingle job in Brooklyn is going to be mighty expensive. I'm assuming LPC would allow them to be replaced with clapboards which would be easier and more durable ( I'd even use Hardie board...it'll last forever). I suspect it was originally clapboard but who knows.

Woody and Dan were a gay couple, I assume???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 3:00 PM

The widget won't accept my estimate either...950 for a total renovation, with the additional disadvantage of being landmarked, is insane.

Posted by: bridges at June 22, 2009 3:05 PM

Pete...yes, I noticed the basement windows in the floorplan. When I walked by the house, and as you can see with the front porch, the first floor is about 4' above grade but I never saw the windows.

This would add greatly to square footage and usability if these are "real rooms" and not just a potential dungeon.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 3:05 PM

The commision staff can be impossible, depends on who you get. hardyplank should be a-ok. one of the realtors is on the landmarks commission, she would be your key contact to get the children's desk moving on the permits.

Posted by: sam at June 22, 2009 3:06 PM

Dave, if you don't buy it, and no-one else does in the next 2 months, I will when I get back to NYC. It's really sweet and hubby and I are gluttons for punishment when it comes to renovations.

Posted by: Maly at June 22, 2009 3:08 PM

David,

Yes, you're correct...at least I don't think they were brothers... :-) sniff...

They were a neighborhood fixture.

Yes, indeed, the house was probably clapboard originally. shingles are a cheap alternative to clapboarding. Although these days, the installation is the costly part, cedar shingles are still relatively cheap on their own. Getting someone to install them well and do a great job is the tough part.

Just buy the house already and get crackin'. It's a very charming, little house and a great location.

Of course, I'm biased/rah-rah on Fort Greene so don't ask me.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 22, 2009 3:12 PM

DIBS, I'll be very curious what you think after you see the place. I live nearby and have been inside a few times, and while it is a very sweet house, it needs a tremendous amount of work, in my opinion. I think you'll have to replace all the floor joists (very slopey), maybe some supporting beams and the roof looks to be in bad shape. If you want to preserve the original flooring or the plasterwork on the first floor (which is gorgeous) that will just add to the price. This looks to me like the kind of place where you end up having to replace an entire back wall. AND there isn't that much full standing room on the top floor. I know people with similarly eaved wood frame houses who haven't been able to get permission from Landmarks to lift the roofline or put dormers in. Maybe they're are more lenient now. But I don't see how you can do elec, plumbing, the exterior, a kitchen, and two and a half baths for less than 500k. That said, I'd love to be proven wrong, and hey, if I had the money, I'd buy it renovated for 1.2 in a second. I think you could even get a little more.

Posted by: lucybb at June 22, 2009 3:28 PM

BrooklynGreene, loved your post. Maybe the house doesn't need renovation, just a little structural maintenance. Don't fix what ain't broken.

Posted by: mopar at June 22, 2009 3:52 PM

FYI, LPC will approve Hardiplank. It's cheaper than new shingles, but still no bargain once you remove the old shingles, insulate, and add the clapboard. But much better than wood, of course.

Posted by: tinarina at June 22, 2009 4:14 PM

I've used Hardi board before. I love it.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 4:19 PM

I wrote a long entry that was snapped up by this new comment review process, but in a nutshell:

I saw this place about 2 weeks ago, and thought it needed a lot of work. mainly, the floors and stairways were significantly sagging and sloped. top floor has ceilings that meet the floors except for the room and the center of the peaked roof. basement was direct from a horror movie. and the rooms were chopped up awkwardly. I think this is going to be a half-mil plus reno, and is not a DIY job at all, unless you are an experienced contractor.

the enormous windows on the parlor floor were amazing. the garden, which is pretty small b/c of the extension, is impressively green and lush feeling, although overgrown (and a large water feature chews up a lot of space).

with that said, it's a beautiful building, and it would be great if someone with the time and money to restore it to its original beauty got a hold of it. if restored right, I think it could get more than the estimates above. but, you're going to need some serious dough on hand to get it there.

Interested to hear if you agree to this assessment of your new home, DIBS.

Posted by: amt230 at June 22, 2009 4:24 PM

Wow we didn't realize this was for sale. We live only 5 houses away on Lafayette and have always admired the cottage feel of this house...totally charming.
DIBS can't believe we may possibly become neighbors; listen dude this is a great house in an excellent location that we are sure you will come to love ..go for it. Also your half a million estimation is excessive given the size of the house..should be able to do a complete gut for $350k here even with detailed restoration. LPC will be strict though.
Lets us know how the viewing goes and remember that price is heavily negotiable...yeah take that team captain bull :)

Posted by: pierre de taille at June 22, 2009 4:48 PM

For the people that have posted about using hardi board/hardi plank. What have peoples experience with cost been. I have a frame house with a capboard facade and a shingled rear facade. I am considering removing the shingles and replacing with hardi plank (would insulate at the same time). The project is about 650 square feet.

Posted by: Boerum Hill at June 22, 2009 4:58 PM

BH...I'm having a gable end about that size done right now but its down in Pennsylvania. The total cost including the removal of the old clapboards, Tyvek, priming & painting is just over $5,000.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 5:03 PM

Well, no offense to David...but I think Fort Greene is a bit better of a location in general...there are many services around and you're a much closer taxi ride in from Manhattan if that floats your boat.

I just don't see how a renovation of their house would truly cost $500 thousand unless I'm completely out of touch...? It's very small and compact. Plus, I would assume there will be desperate contractors willing to be more "flexible" with their estimates. It was shocking how, in the last 10 years, you could barely get a contractor to stop by and even look at a "job". Maybe I'm just negative.

Anyway, despite the fact I like Woody and Dan's house looking cottagy, brown and overgrown, I wouldn't mind seeing it become a cute pastel and the columns on the porch made more of.

I had to laugh when I read LucyBB's comment...luckily I'm short and can stand up upstairs...of course, the husband is WELL over 6 feet tall which presents problems in small houses.

Foregone conclusion: David is moving to Fort Greene and will be on the garden tour.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 22, 2009 5:07 PM

"Anyway, despite the fact I like Woody and Dan's house looking cottagy, brown and overgrown, I wouldn't mind seeing it become a cute pastel and the columns on the porch made more of."

Not all gays like pastel, BG. :)

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 22, 2009 5:09 PM

Well, I like pastels so you're painting the house a pastel. ;-) (if it were the old days, you could do Z-brick or that fake field stone...or aluminum siding...ugh!)

No, but seriously, something a little less rumpledown than that deep brown wouldn't hurt. Something historic and cute...pale blue, pale earth green...white trim...shutters, window boxes, lots of pretty plants... ;-)

He made a showplace
Decided to take the plunge
On next year's house tour

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 22, 2009 5:27 PM

It's an adorable house, the pricing makes me wonder how this compares, however, to the mansion on Clinton Ave that (eventually) sold for about the same price. True, that needed and is getting a complete gut, and true, I guess you could argue the location isn't as prime (I guess, although the school zoning is better) -- but that was about five times more house than this.

Because of that, I'd wonder if you could get this place for under 800. You know, maybe -- if the stars were aligned.

Posted by: Heather at June 22, 2009 7:00 PM

dibs, no pastels.
The house should be pure white with black trim (including black shutters). Good New England traditional.

Posted by: sam at June 22, 2009 7:25 PM

I lived here in college - my landlord was the owner before Woody and Dan. The previous posters are right - the interior is a wreck. I was only in it once in recent years visiting Dan, but it seemed as if there hadn't been any work done inside since I lived there in the late seventies.

In addition to being very slanty, loose plaster, awful floors and two different levels between the two parts of the house, the house shook in a terrifying way every time the train ran below. The bathroom was a travesty - there were two of them sort of back to back as I recall. The fireplaces upstairs were just holes in the wall, although they may have had mantles added since I was there. I'd be disinclined to light a fire in any of them.

On the other hand, the parlor floor was flooded with light and it was a comfortable spot for six or eight students and an occasionally present landlord. There was a lot of space and the porch was great.

The cellar might be a decent studio space for an artist who doesn't need any light but it really shouldn't be a living space.

Posted by: Stonergut at June 22, 2009 8:03 PM

DIBS is all talk and will not buy this house.
I went by to see it (Just from the outside).
This place just oozes cute. Anybody who thinks you could renovate this house for less than $500K has no construction experience. And you will pull your hair out and have a nervous breakdown in the bargain. But it is a great location.
Curious to see what happens.

Posted by: leftmanhattanneverlookedback at June 22, 2009 8:04 PM

I cannot believe that anyone in their right mind would spend more than 500,000 on this little cottage/shack. even that seems outlandish. it is in a historic district, you cannot enlarge it. it is two small stories with an attic and a cellar. whoever buys it will have to pay cash as I do not believe any bank will mortgage it in its current condition.

Posted by: sam at June 22, 2009 9:14 PM

Well we do have a guy (Dibs) who claims to be interested. This is the same guy who stands to lose 50-70% on his well publicized "investment" in the ghetto so who knows?

Posted by: cornerbodega at June 22, 2009 10:24 PM

Woody & Dan's story:

http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-11-30/nyc-life/two-story-circa-1800-wooden-house/

Posted by: guest4 at June 23, 2009 11:21 AM

http://dolledesign.com/hill/images/Archive/Hill.Spring.03.pdf

Go to page 19, Woody's story.

Posted by: guest4 at June 23, 2009 11:41 AM

Well, now I want to hang out with Woody, Dan, and their dogs -- and regret never having the chance to do so.

But discussions like this about renovation always make me wonder what the low end is: if this house wasn't in a prime location and the main goal was to keep it from falling down or catching fire or leaking, while also having working appliances... and still be relatively tasteful... what would the cost be then?

Posted by: Heather at June 23, 2009 11:42 AM

Thanks for the the trip down memory lane...and finding that article!

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 23, 2009 12:44 PM

DIBS, how'd it go yesterday? I'm so excited that you're considering this place.

Someone mentioned the house was flooded with light. Did you find that to be the case? It has no southern exposure, so I'm assuming it gets a lot of western/sunset light?

Pics please!

Posted by: iz at June 23, 2009 12:58 PM

I inspected this house for a potential buyer.

It is an exquisite little building - and deserves a great deal of love, attention and money.

It is a wood frame house and originally had clapboards on the exterior walls. There is extensive evidence of rot, settlement and general structural degradation. Roof is sagging, floors are sagging, porch is sagging etc. It is also a free standing structure, so all four walls are structurally in play when it comes time to start to repair the frame and sheathing etc.

I believe that the renovation cost here is going to be much more in the neighborhood of 1 mil ++. In the long run and for the right person it will be worth it, but this thing really requires a serious commitment.

BRC

Posted by: Brendan Coburn at June 23, 2009 4:35 PM

My goodness Brendan!
Couldn't that buy a new house?
What could cost so much?

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at June 23, 2009 6:21 PM

When the project is complete, it will be a new house. This structure is going to be a Reconstruction - and I think it is worth reconstructing. This building will need to be basically taken apart and put back together, and to do it in the correct way, you will need terrific carpenters ( With timber frame experience) terrific masons and in general terrific tradesmen in all categories. But again I think if you love the neighborhood and you love this type of structure and you are going to be living here for 10 years or more, i think it would be well worth the time and effort.

Also, THe house is not that small. Depending upon how you use the basement and attic/top floor there is between 3200-4000 sf of living space in this house.

Posted by: Brendan Coburn at June 24, 2009 8:42 AM

« Co-op of the Day: 170 Prospect Park West, #4L Streetlevel: Loulou No More »

June 22, 2009

House of the Day: 329 Adelphi Street

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