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June 12, 2009

Fifth Avenue Bike Lane Debate, Continued

The news earlier this week that the Fifth Avenue BID in Park Slope wants to do away with the Class 2 bike lane, blaming an uptick in the number of tickets delivery trucks were getting on it, Streets Blog sent a correspondent out to talk to a bunch of merchants on the commercial stretch and couldn't find much support for the BID's angle. "I haven't heard a word or noticed anything," said Emily Isaac, owner of Trois Pommes Patisserie, which receives about ten deliveries per week. "As far as the delivery guys, no one's complained to me that because of the bike riders they're getting tickets," said the owner of 'Snice at the corner of 3rd Street. There was consensus on one matter though: There need to be more designated delivery zones. The space in front of The Associated, for example, is not long enough to accommodate the big rigs that come to deliver milk several times a week; as a result, the trucks end up sticking out into the bus stop and getting hit with a ticket.

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I think you milked this comment-cow for all its worth already.

Posted by: dittoburg at June 12, 2009 10:32 AM

Good reporting to go out and talk with people.

Posted by: East New York at June 12, 2009 10:36 AM

I think I'll stay out of this one except to agree with this:

"The B63, which runs on Fifth Avenue, is the slowest bus line in Brooklyn."

I can routinely walk over 15 blocks without getting passed by the B63, most recently last Friday around 5:00pm (I was late and tired and really would have liked to jump on the bus for 10 blocks or so...).

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 12, 2009 10:41 AM

If the delivery trucks generally don't have a problem, as it seems is being reported from your investigative journalism, then there's no problem.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at June 12, 2009 10:44 AM

"Good reporting to go out and talk with people."

That's a shock! Brownstoner makes it all up!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at June 12, 2009 10:48 AM

Thanks for staying on top of this. If you hear of how we in the neighborhood can help the business owners advocate for larger loading/unloading zones, please let us know.

Posted by: bkrules at June 12, 2009 10:50 AM

Both the buses on 5th Ave and 7th Ave are so slow and scarce they might as well not exist. I too can walk the entire stretch of either avenue through Park Slope and not have one single bus pass me. When I was having to go to my doctor at NY Methodist frequently during my difficult pregnancy, I ended up spending a lot of money on car service rides because the 7th Ave bus seems to arrive only twice a day. I tried many times waiting for the bus on 7th Ave near the B/Q stop only to have to give up and waddle my way down to 6th street. Without one bus passing me, as I said.

Posted by: traditionalmod at June 12, 2009 11:07 AM

So many bikes on 5th Avenue - I wish the bikers wore helmets! and obeyed some traffic laws.

Posted by: ebklyn at June 12, 2009 11:22 AM

So many bikes on 5th Avenue - I wish the bikers wore helmets! and obeyed some traffic laws.

Posted by: ebklyn at June 12, 2009 11:23 AM

A 15 minute walk from 9th St. to Flatbush Av. vs. an hour plus wait for a bus.

Posted by: Arkady at June 12, 2009 11:28 AM

When the pedestrians start obeying traffic laws, maybe the folks on bikes will... teach by example, right?

Posted by: tybur6 at June 12, 2009 12:07 PM

It doesn't take long for a discussion about bike lanes to yield it's first "bikers don't obey traffic laws" comment.

Posted by: Ditmas at June 12, 2009 12:24 PM

So, it seems like people really hate bikers for some reason, and also really hate park slope stroller moms (and dads).

Some of the stupidest road behavior I've seen is the combo: park slope parents who ride their toddlers on the handlebars.

I was biking home from work recently (after sunset) and passed a father, without a helmet for him or his child, with no light, swerving all over the place...

I've bike commuted to work in the city for 6 years now and have seen enough to know that:
a) you need to wear a helmet
b) you need to be 100% alert at all times, and
c) NYC city streets are really no place to be biking with your kids (though some are better than others)

That last part is just my opinion, but an educated one having avoided many a door (narrowly), been hit (at a very low speed) by a car, and flipped (at a high speed, in traffic) because I hit a deep pot hole that I didn't see until too late...

Posted by: young archi at June 12, 2009 12:27 PM

ebklyn...cyclists, not bikers (are you channeling PitBull Rob?) and yi:...why should we wear helmets? Read up on it first, go any other country and check out the cyclists there. Even kids don't wear helmets. It's so stupid to want cyclists to wear helmets without knowing anything about it (or being a cyclist, no doubt).

If cycling is to become popular, it needs to be seen as something everyone does casually, without having to wear spandex and helmets and spend $2000 on a bike. It needs to be seen as not dangerous and normal, and you won't get that by forcing special duds.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 12:33 PM

"c) NYC city streets are really no place to be biking with your kids (though some are better than others)"

Have a friend in Bedford, I once asked her about her kids cycling. She doesn't let her kids out on the roads. 'Too much traffic, and too fast'.

I guess kids just have to stay home these days. Life is too dangerous, better to play games on line.

Posted by: denton at June 12, 2009 12:52 PM

"I guess kids just have to stay home these days. Life is too dangerous, better to play games on line."

Sadly true. Look no further than that white bike you reminded us of in the other thread.

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 12, 2009 1:00 PM

It's the perception, not reality, denton, if you were being serious. My 11-yr old has been walking around for almost 2 years by now, and several of his classmates take the bus and one the subway for over a year (remember the flap about that kid in Manhattan who took the subway by himself and his mother was excoriated in the blogs? Please).

Parents (and cycle-averse people) are terminally risk-averse nowadays. If its not helmets, its worries about stairs, railings, lead paint and CFL mercury.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 1:01 PM

nsr fits well into my groupd, so you'd stop driving because you heard of a fatal car accident?

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 1:04 PM

"I guess kids just have to stay home these days. Life is too dangerous, better to play games on line."

Or... you could go to a park. That's something else you could do. There are several of them.

I just dont see biking as so glorious I'd want to risk my kid's neck riding around in NYC traffic. A small concession to the realities of living in the city.

Posted by: woodys at June 12, 2009 1:16 PM

Yes Denton - the only logical conclusion one can reach after determining that NYC streets are generally too dangerous for kids to be riding their bikes on...is to keep them at home, because obviously there is nothing in-between...
Stop being a troll

Posted by: fsrg at June 12, 2009 1:32 PM

young archi total agreeance. there are so many people on my block who dump their kids on their bikes. it's insane. then they get hit and complain about cars and pedestrians.

ive never had an issue with a stroller on the street tho. there are just as many strollers up in harlem as there are in park slope, cept they dont cost 1000 bux.

this bike issue tho is dead. someone said earlier that it brings the worst out in people. weird. ive decided to give it all an open mind. bitterness causes ulcers.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 12, 2009 1:38 PM

I always used to get mad at people who suggest you shouldn't be talking about something if you haven't experienced it, but comments by ya and rob make me want to say it (to be fair, comments by many parents are ridiculously over-protective also.)

"dump their kids" on a bike, rob? what the devil does that mean? Kids need to be exposed to life and learn about dangers, and if you keep them sheltered they'll never do so. One of the beauties of living in NYC is precisely that kids become self-reliant at an early age. Besides, kids under 16 are ALLOWED to ride on the sidewalk, and if you thnk that's unsafe you shouldn't have kids.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 1:54 PM

So many of these issues are just a matter of the "entitlement" syndrome. If drivers remembered they're enjoying sitting inside a warm/cold, dry place while pedestrians are dealing w/ weather; if cyclists realized that pedestrians aren't looking for traffic from the 'wrong' direction & can't move quickly; if stroller moms figured out that standing in the middle of the pavement blocks people from getting by - most of the complaints on here would be obviated.

Posted by: Arkady at June 12, 2009 2:11 PM

cmu. u are barking up the wrong tree. i grew up feral for the most part and took the bus to port authority from jersey to nyc from when i was 9 years old. (that would be the year 1986).

i do think it's lame when parents dump their kids on their bikes as fashion accessories and or political statements, which i see ALL the time in park slope. these same parents wont even let their kids eat peanuts.

beleive me dude, i grew up much more hardcore than you or your crotchfruit ever will.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at June 12, 2009 2:22 PM

cmu -I think people on bikes should wear helmets for the same reason people in cars wear seatbelts b/c accidents happens regardless of how careful you are. I think its a shame when people get hurt.

Posted by: ebklyn at June 12, 2009 3:11 PM

".why should we wear helmets? Read up on it first, go any other country and check out the cyclists there. Even kids don't wear helmets. It's so stupid to want cyclists to wear helmets without knowing anything about it (or being a cyclist, no doubt)."

OMFG!!!!! Are you serious! Why people should wear helmets????

That does it- Thanks you for validating how fucking retarded you are. Oh shit!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at June 12, 2009 3:17 PM

cmu -

i don't have a problem with kids who ride bikes, especially (under 12 - not 16) who are allowed to ride on sidewalks.

I DO have a problem with grown-ups putting toddlers on their handlebars, riding in the dark without light, and without helmets. its ridiculously dangerous.

I've been riding in the city long enough to know the risks: and if you want to take the risk and not ride a helmet, fine. but to put a 3 year old at risk is crazy to me.

also, wearing a helmet is not synonymous with wearing spandex. I bike in jeans, a t shirt and your godd##n right i wear a helmet. if you ride enough, you WILL be in an accident.

Posted by: young archi at June 12, 2009 3:27 PM

"If cycling is to become popular, it needs to be seen as something everyone does casually, without having to wear spandex and helmets and spend $2000 on a bike. It needs to be seen as not dangerous and normal, and you won't get that by forcing special duds."

Do you think with enough lies and propaganda you can trick people into believing it is safe to ride bicycles on the streets of this city?

You better get rid of that white bicycle I walk past everyday...

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 12, 2009 3:47 PM

"cycling is to become popular"

Cycling IS popular.

"Do you think with enough lies and propaganda you can trick people into believing it is safe to ride bicycles on the streets of this city?"

It can be dangerous to bicycle in this city. I know - I biked to work, from Brooklyn to midtown Manhattan for about 7-8 years. I knew it was dangerous, but that was just something I chose to deal with. It can also be dangerous to drive a car or walk down the street in NYC. New Yorkers aren't going to stop doing any of the three things anytime soon. Get used to it.

Posted by: East New York at June 12, 2009 4:00 PM

I guess you didn't pass basic math in grade school, northsloperenter, or else why is ONE death-bike indicative of unsafeness? You probably think kids shouldn't walk the streets by themselves because they will be abducted by molesters.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 4:03 PM

cmu -- when you start wearing a helmet, I'll consider taking you seriously.

Until then, you are "The What" of bicyclists imo.

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 12, 2009 4:07 PM

i used to not wear a helmet...for 2-3 years in fact.
here was my logic:

I know how to handle a bike (i was a messenger for a bit after college and ride every day), helmets are hot and uncomfortable, and i felt like i was aware enough to avoid any problems.

The reality check was flipping over the handle bars in heavy traffic on flushing ave. I hit a pot hole that there was no way to avoid because the traffic was so heavy i couldn't see it until it was to late.

I've worn a helmet since.

I'm a huge bike advocate, but c'mon cmu - saying you don't need a helmet while riding in NYC is preposterous...

sure you don't NEED one, but you also don't NEED to pay attention while riding...

anyway, what does cmu stand for? the masonry unit? the university?

Posted by: young archi at June 12, 2009 4:24 PM

Please God let the What think car seatbelts are also only for retards.

Posted by: dittoburg at June 12, 2009 4:46 PM

You see, y-a, you have not grown up in India like I did, where potholes are so routine that it's easier to go thru them than around them (joke). I cycle slowly, as a routine activity, (if I want to go more than 5 mph I go to the park) so avoiding a pothole is somwewhat easy. I also pay extreme attention to traffic, peds, and road conditions.

I have a friend who hit a ped...said he couldn't avoid him; I asked him how fast he was going...not fast, he says, about 15mph. Hmmm...at 15mph on a busy street a cycle is basically an unsafe moving object.

nsr, I;ve read enough of your posts to be flattered that you wouldn't take me seriously.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 4:50 PM

"One of the beauties of living in NYC is precisely that kids become self-reliant at an early age."

That's right cmu. When I got my first bike, a Schwinn single speed, I was probably nine. That would have been 1963. It allowed me to get the hell out of Harlem and see what the city was like, cuz my parents weren't planning to take me. One of the trips I took that I never forgot was to Brooklyn Heights. Never saw anything like it, and from that moment on wanted to live there. And I did for a decade.

Went to Coney Island, East Harlem, Bronx Zoo, several cemeteries, all the museums (they were all free then). They didn't have helmets back then either. Used to lock it up with a two dollar lock and chain, amazing it never got stolen.

Used to hang out at Simm's Bike Shop up on 140th Street and ogle all the 'racing bikes'.

Posted by: denton at June 12, 2009 5:04 PM

That's great, denton...hope my son is as adventurous. I expect he'll refuse to let me go with him on the subway to grade school after a week next September.

What I find is that people love to look on the bleak side; we're a fearful country as a whole (most people have a wildly exaggerated viewpoint of, for example, fear of crime). And, apparently, fear of cycling.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 5:17 PM

I bike regularly... and, of course, I'm also a pedestrian... BUT I also drive fairly regularly and find myself almost AIMING at the pedestrians standing in the middle of the road because they can't possibly wait on the sidewalk. In fact, when I take a right turn, I make it tight hoping I run over a foot.

I have to say, if pedestrians are hit by a bike or a car, the odds are very good that they were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing.

I'm really not sure how people can't just accept the existence of bicycles and take on some self-responsibility!! Don't wait in the road, wait on the sidewalk. Actually LOOK when you step into the street... stop talking on your cell phone and texting when you step into the street.... just LOOK!

A 15 mph bicycle is a slow moving object, faster than walking yes, but not unsafe! Ridiculous.

Accidents happen, sure. Bicycles don't cause traffic and safety problems (many times they help reduce congestion or have no impact); most pedestrians get hit by all sorts of things because they are dumbasses; in fact, pedestrians have a MUCH worse impact on traffic than bicycles... crossing whenever they feel like and blocking intersections.

I'm a proud pedestrian that waits on the sidewalk, not halfway in a driving lane... and I'm a proud cyclist that does "stretch" traffic laws, but not in ways any worse than the average holier-than-thou pedestrian... and I'm a driver that subconsciously wants to run down half of the pedestrians I see.

Posted by: tybur6 at June 12, 2009 9:35 PM

There you go tyburg, undermining all the reasonableness I've been striving for...you're obviously one of those cylcists (and driver, apparently) we all hate. Pedestrians should be afforded more leeway precisely because they're more vulnerable. I suppose you think it's ok to mow them down because you have the right of way.

And NO, 15mph is bloody fast for a bike...on a street. It does not have the braking or maneuvering capability to avoid accidents, if you think it does, you're being obtuse. You're not on a race track.

Posted by: cmu at June 12, 2009 9:54 PM

tybur6 -- just curious, has anyone ever told you that you are a schmuck?

Posted by: northsloperenter at June 12, 2009 11:02 PM

Yes, I've been called a schmuck... :-)

So -- exactly why should pedestrians be given "leeway"? It's perfectly acceptable for pedestrians to cross the street whenever and wherever they please? Stand in the middle of the street waiting for the same thing they could be waiting for on the curb?

CMU -- going 15 mph on a bike, with traffic, obeying all traffic laws... is that unsafe? If you think that a bicycle is unsafe and unmanouverable at 15 mph, you shouldn't be on a bike. That's fine.

Do I "stretch" the traffic laws at 15 mph? NO. I slow to 3 or 4 mph, basically the speed of a fast walker and "run" red lights... the same way and for the same reason folks "jaywalk."

Should bikes be allowed to drive the wrong way down streets? Absolutely not. Those assholes should get tickets. Should bikes be ticketed for running red lights... yes! But so should cars and jaywalkers!!

Don't get down on bikes if you, as a pedestrian, can't operate with the same level of self-awareness. Guess what, I should NOT have to worry about riding down the street at 15 mph on my bike and have a fucking pedestrian STEP OUT IN FRONT OF ME!! But they do all the time... Oh, they do it when I'm driving my car too! It causing braking, swerving, and generally unnecessary and potentially unsafe actions by riders and drivers...

Again, I'm not saying Pedestrians are the root cause or something ridiculous like that... but CHRIST... take some ownership and stick your "leeway" up you bum.

Posted by: tybur6 at June 14, 2009 2:23 PM

Nobody takes the cyclists-never-do-anything-wrong claims seriously. It's propaganda ultimately only succeeding in preaching to the choir. A recent study said 50% of cyclists in NYC run red lights. Which of course we already knew. It's illegal and unsafe, for themselves and others, period.

Most annoying? The fact the cyclist fanatics believe cars should yield to bicycles because bicycles are more vulnerable, but then refuse to acknowledge bicycles should yield to (or even watch out for) the more vulnerable pedestrian. Total utter lack of logic.

Posted by: traditionalmod at June 14, 2009 2:29 PM

« Kitchen Bar Out, Lot 2 In 160 Imlay Changes Hands; Future Still Uncertain »

June 12, 2009

Fifth Avenue Bike Lane Debate, Continued

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