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June 2, 2009
Co-op of the Day: 328 Clinton Avenue, #3

This two-bedroom, two-bathroom duplex co-op at 328 Clinton Avenue in Clinton Hill has a very nice vibe to it—lots of original detail and the kind of spacious vibe you'd expect from a Victorian brownstone. (We're guessing the square footage comes in at around 1,300.) It's currently set up for family living right now but we're thinking this would make a pretty sweet pad for a childless household if you could just open up that lower level into one giant living/dining space. The maintenance is a reasonable $855 per month and the asking price is $860,000. Think that's achievable in this market?
328 Clinton Avenue, #3 [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
it doesn't seem spacious to me at all.
Posted by: sam at June 2, 2009 12:54 PM
"...$860,000. Think that's achievable in this market?"
Absolutely, because there are still clueless and impatient buyers out there (however dwindling in number). Nevertheless, whole Clinton Hill brownstone move-ins will go for less than this by the time prices stop falling.
Looks nice but it's stoopless. Not really a bonafide brownstone.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 12:57 PM
I absolutely love the look of the apartment itself and the location is terrific, but the price seems completely off the mark to me. Like by 200K.
Posted by: 11217 at June 2, 2009 12:57 PM
They have it as a one bedroom, as it should be. The second bedroom is used as the living room - if the walls can come down, they should take them down and open up the room. Using that second bedroom as a bedroom forces the living space to be too small and dark. Because of the space and large terrace, this will get over $600K - but it should be treated as a large one-bedroom (possibly with office).
Posted by: saminthehood at June 2, 2009 1:00 PM
It looks really nice, but could it rent for more than $3K/month? I love the location, but is that location worth $3K/month for a one-bedroom?
Posted by: Heather at June 2, 2009 1:03 PM
Heather, it might be able to get $3k rent. smaller and worst looking 2 bdrms on those blocks still get around 2.5k or a little more. So $3k for this one is doable
Posted by: more4less at June 2, 2009 1:06 PM
I have a friend who has a 3 bedroom (plus office) not far from here (on Clinton) for $2800.
So I'd say no, Heather.
Posted by: 11217 at June 2, 2009 1:07 PM
Umm... isn't this place closer to $4,500 to $5,000 per month.
Posted by: tybur6 at June 2, 2009 1:08 PM
Yeah, I think it could get $3K too... I just don't think it could get more than that... and that's not enough to justify $860K, is it?
Posted by: Heather at June 2, 2009 1:08 PM
Agree with 11217 that this is overpriced, possibly by even more than $200k. Living / dining room is tiny, and don't like the idea of bars on the window of the main living space. I have no problem with the location or the building.
From the photos it looks like it is currently set up as a 1 bed (the room with the sofa in it is labelled as a bedroom on the floorplan), which makes sense for the space. Means that $860k is insane, though.
Posted by: etson at June 2, 2009 1:14 PM
The usable living space (excluding terrace) is under 900 SF. Its a nice large one-bedroom that ideally needs a wall to come down. I'm firm for the low 600s.
Posted by: saminthehood at June 2, 2009 1:17 PM
Sorry, saminthehood. just realized I repeated what you had already written re the 'bedroom' that's really a living room.
Posted by: etson at June 2, 2009 1:20 PM
11217, not kidding. if your friend ever decides to move out of that 3bdrm, let me know. I would sell my place and rent that cause 2800 for 3 bdrm on those prime blocks on Clinton is a great deal
Posted by: more4less at June 2, 2009 1:21 PM
The bedroom on the lower level feels rather tacked on, and one must hike through the living space to a bathroom. Given that, it feels more like a one bedroom with a nice guest room. It feels about 150 to 200k over in this market. We'll see.
Posted by: Nokilissa at June 2, 2009 1:25 PM
OMG - that's my old apartment. I bought it in 98 for 85k and sold it in 2001 for 340k (and then bought my house for significantly less).
It is a great space, but previous posters are correct in that it is better used as a one bedroom. Using it as two bedroom would make the living space distressingly dark and cramped. It guess using the "nursery" as such would be a nice compromise, but it would put the infant's room right next to the living space and a spiral staircase away from the master bedroom. The very spacious deck once had a view of the WTC - I watched the smoke for weeks from there. It still faces the side of Queen of All Saints - lovely alpine light. I did stage one of the kitchen reno (ikea cabinets), which seems to have been opened up onto the dining area (good idea), and there was totally enough space for what now seems to be a walk-in closet.
When I sold the financials were shaky, and the building was suffering from the downside of a small co-op. There was one very difficult shareholder who may or may not still be there. They've certainly done a lot of great physical work to the building. When I walk by I still miss it - the location, and perhaps my bachelorhood!
The price? Well you can guess my reaction from the numbers I bought and sold it for. I think a smaller ground floor unit sold in the 600's a few years ago. I guess if I were selling my home (2 unit, twice the size, etc) on my lousy Clinton Hill block I'd be looking for the same number. Kind of hard to believe I could have gotten 700k back on my 10k downpayment from oh so many years ago! But then again that initial price was clearly a pre-boom price.
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 2, 2009 1:27 PM
There is a true two bedroom in a mansion across the street going for 725K.
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1554229
Downside is high taxes. 328 would be nice for a couple who needs an office. Hopefully they'll take down that wall to make a real LR/DR.
Posted by: DeLepp at June 2, 2009 1:33 PM
I'm terrified of these little co-ops. Seems like a commune. And what on earth does "self managed" mean? No managing agent? No super? What happens when the "charming and historic brownstown" heating goes kaput on a cold January night?
Posted by: clintonhillbuyer at June 2, 2009 1:37 PM
"smaller and worst looking 2 bdrms on those blocks still get around 2.5k or a little more"
Not new leases. Nuh uh!
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 1:39 PM
Management companies are pricey. Many small coops self manage, when the heating goes kaput you call the plumber directly. And you hire a super to clean/maintain the bldg/grounds.
Posted by: DeLepp at June 2, 2009 1:40 PM
BHO, I beg to differ. I live in the area and has been monitoring the listings (cause I want to sell then rent) and that's what I'm seeing. if you see better deals, don't withhold the info.
Posted by: more4less at June 2, 2009 1:46 PM
"Not new leases. Nuh uh!"
Said with such confidence BHO. How do you know? Clearly the rental market is softening but I would imagine that 2500 is still a reasonable starting estimation of two bedroom rentals in that area of Clinton Hill.
Posted by: wasder at June 2, 2009 1:50 PM
"Nevertheless, whole Clinton Hill brownstone move-ins will go for less than this by the time prices stop falling."
Wow--just saw this. Do you really think that whole houses are going to go for less than this pad before we see the bottom? That is a bold prediction--I won't say it can't happen cause obviously it could but that would be a pretty dramatic turn of events.
Posted by: wasder at June 2, 2009 2:00 PM
Ugh. No offense to Putnamdenizen, but taking half a floor and putting it on top of another half floor and calling it an apt....ugh. I can't stand these chopped up places. And the high prices.
Posted by: mopar at June 2, 2009 2:07 PM
File under D for "Delusional."
Thr first number in the price should be a 5.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at June 2, 2009 2:09 PM
Guys - $2,500 is gonna get you a duplex. Rents are still falling and they can't get up. If you sign for a single floor-through in that amount, pick a bridge (it's yours for another $2,500).
Where are you looking, more4less? Craigslist (you can't even locate those puppies)? Check the Times (the listings smart enough to locate themselves). Rentals are sitting and sitting and sitting...
***Bid half off peak comp***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 2:09 PM
Given that none of the houses on my block are moving and they are priced at 800k and 900k, I think it is a very reasonable statement. Given that I have shared that this very apartment sold for ONE-TENTH the asking price 10 years ago, and sold for 40% seven years ago, doesn't that suggest that realistic prices are much, much more lower. (Sorry Wasder and Amy C. says hi...)
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 2, 2009 2:09 PM
I didn't create the apartment - I just bought it. It actually is two-thirds a parlor floor and half the floor above, a reconfiguration of what had previously been two floor-throughs. There is a complementary apartment in the front of the building. It (as a one bedroom) is incredibly gracious and spacious. The spiral stair was a bit of a challenge when I'd arrive twisted from the city at 4 in the morning. But fortunately I frequently had help up the stairs (ah those were days!).
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 2, 2009 2:12 PM
Wasder - GM/Chrysler bankruptcy was no less dramatic. It's consistent with my tagline. Peak comps for the 'Hill were roughly $1.5M, fixer-up or not. Halve it and there you go, less than $0.860M.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 2:12 PM
Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with BHO on the rents...
I've found three 2 bedroom apartments (REAL 2 bedrooms) for friends moving to the city over the last 3-4 months....Two were in PRIME Park Slope and the other is in Carroll Gardens.
None were above 2500 a month.
Maybe Clinton Hill has gotten more expensive than both these neighborhoods...? ;)
Posted by: 11217 at June 2, 2009 2:13 PM
"Maybe Clinton Hill has gotten more expensive than both these neighborhoods...? ;)"
More stupid (the newbies that is). Same hood.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 2:16 PM
"Wasder - GM/Chrysler bankruptcy was no less dramatic. It's consistent with my tagline. Peak comps for the 'Hill were roughly $1.5M, fixer-up or not. Halve it and there you go, less than $0.860M."
I hear you and I know these are strange days so I am certainly not going to say it couldn't happen. I certainly wouldn't have believed that 2 of the big 3 would go bankrupt simultaneously if you had asked me last year. So your tagline coming true would certainly not be the strangest thing imaginable. And really as long as the people who buy at those much lower prices are invested in making the neighborhood as nice as it can be then I look forward to their arrival. I am in a zen place about the whole thing, mostly because what else can I do?
In re rents 11217 is clearly correct that you can find prime two bedrooms in the slope for 2500 these days. On the other hand I have seen anecdotal evidence of similar sorts of pricing for apts on the nicest streets in Clinton Hill. Certainly not every place but there are definitely apts achieving this rental number. IF you go looking for evidence on craigslist you can basically "prove" any point you want to make.
Posted by: wasder at June 2, 2009 2:27 PM
11217, again, being serious here. Those are in the legit prime areas of park slope and carroll garden? if so, pass along some those listings if you see them. I would like a real 2 bdrm (2nd bdrm cant be that nursery size) in prime park slope for 2.5k. Prime as in no 4th ave, not those right next to flatbush ave, not those south slope claiming to be park slope,... aptmt needs to look like a real park slope pad - the pre-war works/details (doesnt have to be loaded like the brownstones units w/ fireplaces, etc). bathrms and kitchens in good conditions (doesn't have to be fancy,..).
Clinton Ave is probably most prime blocks in Clinton Hill so a nice big 2 bdrm is 2.5k or more. "Fringe" blocks have big 3 bdrms for 2k or less but those blocks not as nice and the units are very so so
Posted by: more4less at June 2, 2009 2:33 PM
M4Less:
You'd have to do some follow up on the floorplan, exact location for these, etc, but here's a start for ya so you get a feel for what you can get for $2500:
http://www.idealpropertiesgroup.com/property/details/5211
http://www.idealpropertiesgroup.com/property/details/5071
http://www.idealpropertiesgroup.com/property/details/5256
http://www.idealpropertiesgroup.com/property/details/4269
Posted by: 11217 at June 2, 2009 2:55 PM
"I am in a zen place about the whole thing, mostly because what else can I do?"
Brace for impact.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 3:01 PM
Don't fall for it, Wasder, they're yankin' your chain, but--to mix a metaphor a bit--you are such a nice guy, I really hope your feathers are unruffled. Trust me, in the end, you will have the last laugh. History, something many members of this site's community lack, is on your side.
Posted by: dylanfan at June 2, 2009 3:16 PM
11217, thx. will check those out
Posted by: more4less at June 2, 2009 3:17 PM
Maybe my standards are too high, but those listings from 11217 are some small looking rinky dink apartments. You'd have to check out the location as well. Maybe you'd luck out and the location would be good. The prices are not great, but in the $2500 range.
Posted by: 1842 at June 2, 2009 3:28 PM
"Brace for impact."--I'm as braced as I can be at this point. The good thing is that I am enjoying the hell out of my house with the nice weather. Tomato plants and fresh basil in the ground, lots of flowers in the flower beds and YES even grass growing. My garden is looking awesome and my grill is cranking on the deck. I have saved what I can save and I am prepared for most contingencies so I will ride out whatever comes.
dylanfan---thanks! hopefully you are right but I definitely am not going to make any definitive statements about anything except the fact that I am super happy living in my house. BTW I am also a major dylan fan, most especially of the Blood on the Tracks era.
Posted by: wasder at June 2, 2009 3:28 PM
No they certainly aren't palaces for $2500, but they are 2 bedroom apartments (some in PS. 321) and are within the actual borders of Park Slope.
Posted by: 11217 at June 2, 2009 3:38 PM
Fall for what, dylanfan? I'm telling the guy to be prudent and he's already doing it. History says we'll be fucked for some time.
Make the best of it, wasder. You'll do fine.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at June 2, 2009 3:41 PM
These kind of apts rent for $2200/$2300 in this market. Which means if you decide to buy it and pay the same monthly including maintenance, you shouldn't offer more than $340K (including 20% down on 30Y @ 5.8% fixed)
Remember when you buy you take additional risks vs renting. These risks should factor in your price. There is no viable reason why you should be paying more to buy than to rent. Especially in a declining market.
Posted by: stringer at June 2, 2009 4:08 PM
"Make the best of it, wasder. You'll do fine." Thanks dude. Seriously. Sorry I have been such a bitch to you sometimes. You have a POV and you advocate for it. I have a POV and I do my thing and we all can live and let live.
Posted by: wasder at June 2, 2009 4:12 PM
You folks are so tangential sometimes - you make me laugh. You are far more comfortable discussing hypothetical rental apartments than the property in front of you. After seeing my old place listed for ten times its purchase price of ten years ago, and even its widget value eight times as much, I feel more sure that prices have a long way to drop. I always explained my good deal by the referring to the impact of race. When I bought many white folks were still not seeing Clinton Hill as an acceptable neighborhood. Too black. But even if we posit that this has changed, should an apartment cost that much more?
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at June 2, 2009 6:14 PM
Fall for your gloom and doom prophecies, BHO. Wasder is happily living in a house and neighborhood he loves, with substantially less overhead and substantially more space, building up his equity and collecting rent. And trust me, his house will not be worth half what he paid for it--at least in his lifetime.
Let's see where Wasder is and where you are three years from now.
Wasder, I have to laugh for another reason: I recall a dinner many years ago with a number of female friends and one of them said as soon as a man said Blood on the Tracks was his favorite (break-up) album, she ran for her life, and then all the others at the table said, Come to think of it....
Posted by: dylanfan at June 2, 2009 7:54 PM
I saw this place over the weekend at the Sun OH and its much grander than it looks in the pix. They removed the big gates from the parlor room windows since those photos were taken. What they dont show in the pix are the two spa like renovated bathrooms, very smartly done. And the private deck is quite breathtaking. Tons of storage and a big plus is the central AC! Maybe not 860 but not so far off as comp places are going for around that in Clinton Hill/Ft Grn.
I also saw the 2 br across the street and its much less desirable, talk about a cut-up apartment, and its four flights up, no private outside space either.
Posted by: Clinton Hill Kid at June 3, 2009 8:43 AM
Hmm. Can anyone pick out the broker in this lineup?
Posted by: kimcheater at June 5, 2009 3:46 PM

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