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May 8, 2009

Rosie Revisited

First Rosie was on Brian Lehrer. Then we blogged about it. Then she led a panel at WNYC. Then New York Magazine cornered her and blogged it. Here's a clip from the New York Mag post:

Perez got pretty slammed on the Brooklyn blogs for her comments. “As much as I find Rosie Perez to be a decent actor, sexy and certainly part of NYC's charm, I must say comments like these make me want to kick her in the shins,” wrote one commenter on Brownstoner. We cornered Perez after the show, and she was happy to clear up what she worried was a hostile comment. “What I really wanted to say was that, yes, I’m nostalgic for the past, but I’m also excited about the present and hopeful for the future," she explained. "Things do change. Water always has to flow or else it becomes stale. But with change, you can bring along some of the good minerals that came from the top of the waterfall." She said she'd read some of the blogs and seen the nasty comments. "I think it’s their guilt of being the gentrifiers. They don’t know how to take it," she said. "But I had to look at myself and I realized it came off a little hostile, to be honest.”

Her parting words? "Even if you’re in a bad mood, just give me a nod.” We'll do one better: Come to the Flea tomorrow, Rosie, and we'll buy you a pupusa!

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Comments

"I think it’s their guilt of being the gentrifiers. They don’t know how to take it"

She's not exactly helping herself out here...

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 8, 2009 9:32 AM

With hooters like those she can afford to come off sounding stupid, in fact, it would be required.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 9:35 AM

Sigh. This isn't going to end well, is it?

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 8, 2009 9:43 AM

DIBs-- just because a man's brain is in his p*nis, it doesn't mean the same is true about a woman and her breasts....

Posted by: Schultz at May 8, 2009 9:44 AM

Schultz...even I, as a gay man, couldn't stand in front of her and have a serious conversation about the guilt of gentrifiers, without staring below the neck in that outfit.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 9:46 AM

Well after all this time that I have only been a spectator on the Brownstoner I felt the need to finally add. This chat has sparked so many different points of reason and while it is good to respect everyones opinion some of the things I read is just plain crazy. I have been a resident of bklyn all my life, so as far as the neighboorhood goes I feel I seen it all. I truely understand Rosies point of view I feel it has gotten ridiculous a takeover has truely happened kind of out of nowere its like when you get that that roach with an egg and once that egg drops you can never get rid of them, they multiply. I have a brownstown that has been in my family forever I was always comfortable and now I just watch what the neighboorhood has become,and it really sickens me to see how these people (and yeah you know what I mean) move in and try to take over but whats new they have been doing it all there lives its in there blood and character. There was a little fleamarket on that same block before the invaders came along and what happened they got pushed out by those people. Please who said we wanted the freakin habbana bull sh*t. Last note what if the old Putnam Downing FT Green pjs ST James Atlantic Terminals Washington and Classon ave would have moved to Bensonhurst do you think we would have been greeted with open arm. HELL NO you would have probley been murdered. Stay in your area and trust I will stay in mine.

Posted by: Broklin at May 8, 2009 9:49 AM

quote:

"We cornered Perez"

ugh no wonder she hates New Brooklyn :-/

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 9:50 AM

Broklin...thanks for adding that open-minded point of view. It was classic racism/classism. Yeah, everyone that moves somewhere is the same and they all lower the standards set by those already entrenched. Glad no one on my street is like you.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 9:54 AM

What's the big deal here (besides, well, um...)? If people don't want to hear opinionated loudmouths talking about neighborhoods, don't live in effing Brooklyn fercrisesakes. Jeez. Or read this site, for that matter. No one appointed Rosie borough historian; Spike flew the coop long ago and Jonathan Lethem gets tired after a while, so they spiced it up with Rosie. Who really cares what she says. On any block, just walk outside on a sweltering day and someone will give some opinion about something to do with Brooklyn that, if you took seriously, would lead to an altercation. This is Brooklyn. Get over it.

Sorry. Need some sleep or a vacation.

Posted by: slopefarm at May 8, 2009 9:55 AM

Broklin;

I believe your ignorance and nativism is obvious to all, but let me just call you on one factual point. During the past 15 years Bensonhurst has undergone as dramatic a change as any neighborhood in NYC. There has been a heavy influx of Chines, Mexican and Russian immegrants, with virtually no issues. The zip code 11223 has the highest concentration of immigrants in Brooklyn.

If you wish to proclaim your nativism for all to see, fine, but stick to comments about what you know, which is apparently your own little corner of Brooklyn.

Posted by: benson at May 8, 2009 9:56 AM

A question for the neighborhood historians - what sort of debate went on when the Clinton Hill Co-Op buildings were initially proposed and then built in the neighborhood?

At the time I'm sure they were viewed as being horribly out of scale for the neighborhood but now they seem to viewed as a housing complex that forms the backbone of the neighborhood.

Just curious.

P.S. Rosie look mighty hot in that outfit. I'll have to look out for in the nabe.

Posted by: LimestoneKid at May 8, 2009 9:56 AM

This thread will bring out all the usual suspect nutjobs plus, as we can see, some new ones.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 9:57 AM

And the fun begins. An internet thread is uniquely inappropriate for a conversation which touches upon people's sense of ownership, control, and safety in their own homes and neighborhoods. So many are mistrustful and ignorant of the "other," especially when separated by perceived (and real) differences of race, class, education and life experience. Even with the aid of facial expression, tone, thoughtful pauses there is great danger of talking by someone and hearing what you want to hear when you have these conversations in person. I know, I have been guilty of it myself and suffered (okay been irritated by it) myself as well. Good luck to you who think you can have such a conversation with positive results here. Far too many will use it as an occassion to speak aggressively in the mistaken belief that it is persuasive. Peace out.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 8, 2009 10:00 AM

Broklin, your spelling & grammar match your mental & emotional age.

Posted by: Arkady at May 8, 2009 10:02 AM

i think the gist of the whole think is that rosie thinks brooklyn these days is too whitebread, and it has NOTHING to do with white or white people. it's just white people that think they are in merryweather and want everything to adapt to them asap. i mean you all KNOW it's true but some people just dont like to admit it.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:02 AM

As far as I could tell from the article, and as one person pointed out because of her accent, Rosie is definitely NOT a Ft. Greene native. Im assuming she recently bought this "celeb" house, correct???

slopefarm is correct...why even interview her about this???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:03 AM

A: give me an f-ing break.
B: I'm white and I greet all my neighbors and frankly, very few of the old timers will look me in the eye and greet me back, so all this drivel about how newcomers just parade around with no sense of community is bunk. Shortly after we moved in, I was walking past what I now know to be Rosie's house and saw her bitching out a guy who was slipping supermarket circulars into her gate. Since that's something that drives me nuts as well, I, not realizing who she was, interjected, "yeah, it drives me crazy when they do that!" She turned, looked at me like I was dirt and went inside.
C: I'm also a woman and while this is slightly off topic, it's come up in past posts, so I'd like to address it. All those people who talk about white women crossing the street or averting their eyes when they see a black man - are you f-ing kidding me? In Fort Greene? Would any of these women have moved here if they trembled in fear of merely passing a black man? Get your head out of the 40s, my friends, and stop flattering yourselves that you're so big and scary. This is your kneejerk response and you're so wedded to it because it fuels your sense of injustice. there is injustice and it should be addressed, but don't take away from it by talking smack. I and at least all the white women I know (some of whom are married to black, asian, native american, etc men) don't have an issue with you and just because we don't look you in the face doesn't mean a thing. I don't look random white men in the face either.
stop calling race when it just isn't the issue, so that we can better deal with it when it IS.
thanks.

Posted by: miss priss at May 8, 2009 10:04 AM

well, so much for the air of mutual respect we were hoping for. Change happens- I'm not the biggest proponent of change for its own sake, and there is some truth to Rosie's feelings- although I would never hire her as a psychologist.

The problem is that it seems the worst examples of any group get the most play. But the so-called gentrifyers who are good neighbors, who help in their communities, who try to make it better for everyone, who bring in businesses and are very aware of the impact of gentrification and work to mitigate it- those people you never hear about. Yet many of them post on Brownstoner but they don't get the attention the way A Rosie Perez does, or a Park Slope Stroller Mom.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 8, 2009 10:07 AM

Arkady...will definitely have a field day correcting Broklin's post.

Posted by: faithful at May 8, 2009 10:08 AM

"I have a brownstown that has been in my family forever"

How nice for you. The rest of us had to work for our homes.

Posted by: Smudge at May 8, 2009 10:09 AM

miss priss...I don't know what its like in Ft Greene but in Bed Stuy, EVERYONE says "Good morning" or "hello" to everyone else. It was amazing moving here from Manhattan and experiencing this every day on the way to and the way home from work. Maybe Ft. greene is really too close to Manhattan, in which case some of the comments are actually spot on.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:09 AM

To take Broklin's argument one step further, we should all return to wherever our ancestors came from and give this land back to the few surviving Native Americans. Short of doing that, hasn't New York been a city with constantly evolving neighbourhoods? In Manhattan, haven't areas like the Lower East Side and Harlem (to name two of many) constantly undergone changes in their demographics as new immigrants arrive and old ones move to other areas?

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 8, 2009 10:09 AM

Oh Biff, there you go again, trying to be all reasonable and such.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 8, 2009 10:12 AM

I bet the neighbors didn't like it when your parents moved in Broklin. Shed some more light on your situation.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:13 AM

lol at miss priss the resident "angry white woman"

your arugment still doesnt change the fact that a lot of what rosie says is correct.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:14 AM

Snark;

Yes, but to quote Broklin, Biff is just one of "these people (and yeah you know what I mean)".

Posted by: benson at May 8, 2009 10:15 AM

quote:

How nice for you. The rest of us had to work for our homes.

WOW that is such an ignorant statement.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:16 AM

rob...I happen to agree with Smudge on that remark.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:18 AM

also when i lived in harlem everyone was super friendly too, dave. maybe people in fort green arent as friendly because the encroachment IS too hardcore and too fast and too unfriendly. white women in their 30s and 40s with young children ive noticed are actually the least friendly group of people ive ever encountered in nyc. and a lot of other people feel that way too. i mean it's just my opinion but that is how it feels, to a lot of people.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:19 AM

step into the circle of death my friends...

Posted by: randolph at May 8, 2009 10:19 AM

I'm proud of myself that I was able to buy one but I also love having people on the block who were born here - it's part of what makes it a great place to live.

Posted by: Arkady at May 8, 2009 10:22 AM

This whole me here first attitude is funny. I doubt Broklin and his family were here when the homes were first built in the 1880s. The Pratts were whiter than white. Clinton Hill was either farmland or "surburban estates". At one time everyone who moved to Clinton Hill was demon gentrifier.

Posted by: DeLepp at May 8, 2009 10:22 AM

"slopefarm is correct...why even interview her about this???"

Thanks, Dave. Does that mean I'm not one of the nutjobs you called out today? ;)

But my point is also Putnam's. Why argue on a blog thread about what Rosie said? Like PD said, peace out.

BTW, Biff, the Canarsie band don't deserve Brooklyn back the way they sold out their Manhattan brethren to the Dutch. Not that any of us deserve it, either.

Posted by: slopefarm at May 8, 2009 10:24 AM

What a big to-do about nothing.

In the words of Kelly Bensimon (RHNY), "You ever hear the saying 'of mountains and molehills'?"

(yes, we all know she got the saying wrong but you get the drift)

Posted by: TownhouseLady at May 8, 2009 10:25 AM

Putnamdenizen, that was so well stated! I could not agree with you more. Whenever in mixed groups, I find the effort to have truly meaningful, honest and simultaneously civil discussions about race and class in person is difficult enough. But on internet discussions, it becomes down right impossible. Even the so-called "best" of these types of discussions are always lacking. I know I've never had my opinion changed by these discussions and, from the posts of those who regularly participate, I don't see any change in their opinions as well. So, here's a sincere, serious question for those who have responded to this thread (and others like it): what is it that appeals to you in trying to have this always loaded discussion in an anonymous forum?

Posted by: Brooklynista at May 8, 2009 10:28 AM

They were the Kanarsee Indians, Canarsie is a further butchering of the name.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:29 AM

quote:

what is it that appeals to you in trying to have this always loaded discussion in an anonymous forum?

to laugh at the same old tired argument of, life changes deal with it!!! sometimes certain changes SUCK. a lot. and strollers blocking soccer fields where people play IS annoying so i get her point. it's as simple as that. but keep on going off about demons (or whatever that post above said). it's quite entertaining watching people with white guilt justify their lifestyle and non tolerance of others.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:32 AM

Brooklynista;

I'll throw a question right back at you. Is there some nuance in Broklin's post that you think we "regulars" are missing? I see a post that is loaded with nativism (somewhat hostile nativism, I might add) and ignorance. Are we wrong for calling him or her out on it?

Please advise as to what you think an appropriate response to Broklin's post should have been.

Posted by: benson at May 8, 2009 10:35 AM

I don't understand the term "white guilt." Is this something psychiatrists made up?? It certainly isn't part of Catholic Church type guilt.

"Gentrifier guilt" is even more perplexing. I'd like to hear that in Rosie's accent for the full effect.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:35 AM

The people posting that this is an inappropriate forum to discuss these points of view should just refrain from posting. Very simple.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:38 AM

Right you are, DIBS. Are there any Kanarsee around who want to defend their shady land dealings in the 1620s? In all fairness, the Kanarsee did not share the European notion of land ownership and had no idea they were selling "title" to Manhattan as we would understand the word. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Minuit. All of which somehow, sort of, proves Biff's point -- we can get pretty crazy and turned around once we start with the turf arguments.

Posted by: slopefarm at May 8, 2009 10:40 AM

you people are missing the point. she is NOT telling new people not to move to fort green, she is NOT saying she owns the place. what she is saying to many new comers, specifically young white families is.. STOP BEING SO LAME!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 10:43 AM

Attacking the messenger is a lot easier than attacking the message.

Rosie's main beef seems to be the growing sense of elitism and entitlement that is sweeping the neighborhood. She's of the opinion that people seem to think since they're paying a premium for the lovely neighborhood, they should be able to rule the space.

Recent netroots efforts to displace the FG park soccer crowd and efforts to get the PS 20 principal fired are examples of this 'rule the space' mentality.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at May 8, 2009 10:46 AM

Right, even though Broklin may not win the award for most compelling argument of the year with his/her position of "I was here first," it's still how he/she feels and with that feeling comes tension. To talk about the tension is helpful, to tell someone they shouldn't feel that way, is not.

Posted by: jessibaby at May 8, 2009 10:49 AM

brooklynista- I'm going to take the lighthearted approach and say because we are eternal optimists? :-)

Maybe none of us change our opinions, but its fair to say that, whether for good or ill, the level of awareness gets raised. I wonder how many gentrifyers ever thought of the impact they have on residents of a neighborhood they've moved into? How many long time residents realize how many gentrifyers really do care about the neighborhood and love living there, even without a Starbucks on every corner?

I'm a great believer in dialogue- even if it seems futile because on some level we gain more understanding. Maybe the issue is what are we doing with that understanding? Some people just dig in their heels, others will think about it. You never can tell:-)

Posted by: bxgrl at May 8, 2009 10:51 AM

Col Austin, you probably have a valid point about the "rule the space" mentality of new people in a neighborhood with too much time on their hands and a sense of "we paid more" which someone else alluded to. It seems to most vehemently and arrogsntly revolve around the children's "needs" most of the time.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 10:53 AM

Entitlement? To what? Newcomers get accused of being "entitled" if they want crime lowered, the streets beautified, etc. What's so bad about that? I would have thought everyone wanted those things. Obviously there are some culture clashes--like loud music on stoops at night where, at risk of oversimplifying things, the old and new may part ways, but, come on, new people are not moving in looking to push out or disrespect the people that are already there. it's paranoia.

Posted by: Atlantic Frantic at May 8, 2009 10:55 AM

"white women in their 30s and 40s with young children ive noticed are actually the least friendly group of people ive ever encountered in nyc. and a lot of other people feel that way too."

And white women in their 30s and 40s with young children probably think you're unfriendly too, espeically with that big chip on your shoulder. So it goes.

Posted by: Smudge at May 8, 2009 10:55 AM

"miss priss...I don't know what its like in Ft Greene but in Bed Stuy, EVERYONE says "Good morning" or "hello" to everyone else. It was amazing moving here from Manhattan and experiencing this every day on the way to and the way home from work. Maybe Ft. greene is really too close to Manhattan, in which case some of the comments are actually spot on."

just to point out, Bed Stuy is mostly filled with people from the south and everyone says "Good morning" or "hello" even if you don't know them.

also Perez is loaded. so this is all lame.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 10:57 AM

Still working...
...on metaphor...
...of minerals coming down from the top of a waterfall...
...has Rosie been reading too much Thomas Friedman? (The waterfall distributes more minerals when the earth is flat...)

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at May 8, 2009 10:58 AM

I sure as hell don't ever hear any "southern" accents in those hellos.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:00 AM

colonel steve austin said what i meant in a much more eqoquent way, thanks!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:01 AM

who is rosie perez?

Posted by: mcKenzie at May 8, 2009 11:03 AM

my new personal hero

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:06 AM

"I sure as hell don't ever hear any "southern" accents in those hellos."

well that would be because slavery ended 150 years ago and African Americans slowly moved to new york. Taking the southern friendliness along.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:07 AM

my grandmother who is stuck down in the south now (south carolina) haaaaates it. she thinks everyone is (pardon my use of the word...)but totally retarded. and everyone says that southern friendliness is mad phoney. tho personally id rather encounter fake niceness than the nasty cold im better than you because i paid 2 million dollars for my home smugness that a lot of people complain about.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:10 AM

I wonder if the folks in Bay Ridge complain about the profligation of their neighborhood by Dunkin' Donuts?

Do they complain as much about gentrification or do they just get on with it?

Posted by: LimestoneKid at May 8, 2009 11:11 AM

LOL dunkin donuts is NOT gentification lol. a donut shop that sells organic 10 dollar donuts maybe.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:13 AM

So where are white people allowed to move?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 11:13 AM

I love it when topics like this start a real dialogue - much better than the artificial carry-on so often on the OT. Sometimes it's amazing to see that there can even be differing points of view on some topics & it's a revelation to read them (especially when they're legit & logical.)
O.K., sometimes it gets a little venomous or ad hominem, but even that generally levels out over time as the Usual Suspects find that even they differ with the result that they moderate their own points of view.

Posted by: Arkady at May 8, 2009 11:15 AM

I probably have a very different perspective as an immigrant to these shores. Whether at a macro-level (nations) or micro-level (neighborhoods), I believe the nativists' arguments to be utter nonsense. So you were here first, what then? It doesn't make you any more or less for that reason alone. As a recent American, am I any less valued than some crusty old clown whose great-great-grandparents came from somewhere else?
The gentrification debate in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill is all about race. That's what Broklyn is talking about when he mentions Bensonhurst, that's what Rosie is talking about with "gentrifier guilt" - talk about a Freudian slip. The expression I believe is white guilt. The US birth is inextricably linked to African slavery and European landowners. It is definitely one of the main founding paradox, that a country with a myth as a beacon for freedom also existed to keep slavery as a status quo.
Instead of arguing about the mask, we should discuss what's underneath. Do we want ethnic ghettos? do minorities need the "protection" of ethnically pure enclaves? I think the answer was yes for the past century, but some of us are trying to move beyond that. I personally hope we can move beyond that. Of course I am conscious that it is easier to do as a white person. No one ever asked the likes of me to move to the back of the bus or get out of the way on the sidewalk.
When you are the chickens, it's always harder and scarier to see the foxes move in then it is for the foxes.

Posted by: Maly at May 8, 2009 11:15 AM

white women or any colored women with small children aren't unfriendly, they are just hallucinating from sleep deprivation.

Posted by: wine lover at May 8, 2009 11:16 AM

"colored women" Haven't heard that one in a loooong time, winelover.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:18 AM

"my grandmother who is stuck down in the south now (south carolina) haaaaates it. she thinks everyone is (pardon my use of the word...)but totally retarded. and everyone says that southern friendliness is mad phoney. tho personally id rather encounter fake niceness than the nasty cold im better than you because i paid 2 million dollars for my home smugness that a lot of people complain about.

*rob*"

ha its alittle much. I lived there for most of my live and had to get out. I'm sure the fake niceness is the same deal with dave's neighbors

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:20 AM

"Then we blogged about it."

It? It? What the f*** is it? IT didn't happen again! YOU happened again, brownstoner!!! YOU happened!!!

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at May 8, 2009 11:20 AM

quote:

The gentrification debate in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill is all about race.

no, it's not. about snooty people IMMEDIATELY moving in and imposing their snooty ideals on people who are chill and don't walk around with popsicle sticks shoved up their butts.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:21 AM

You need to pay attention to a long time Brooklynite view and understand where things are going!

Brownstoner is trying to invoke Covert Race/Class Warfare because there is waning interest in Real Estate. We are at the Dawn of a Depression and frankly the great "Experiment" has failed. To make Brooklyn a "Utopia" is going down the tubes and everyone who believed in that dream is going to get Assraped real hard! See the story on 23 Caton Pl.! Do think that is a joke?!?! That will be the reality in Brooklyn very soon and I wonder what you will have to talk about. I think ya'll are all fucking losers, just like Brownstoner himself...

The What (Six month of Life Support Left)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 8, 2009 11:23 AM

"I'm sure the fake niceness is the same deal with dave's neighbors.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:20 AM

I guess you know more about my neighbors than I do. Douchebag.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:24 AM

You mean like people who move to Park Slope and rant about strollers and moms? Your popsicle stick is showing. Read again Rosie's comments. All about race. This thread is like Groundhog day meets Do the right thing.

Posted by: Maly at May 8, 2009 11:27 AM

As I said when it posted it, the question was sincere. (Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you). But, I was not expecting there to be a "right" answer. And, Benson, that question was meant for Broklin as much as much as it was meant for anyone else. I also thought it to be a question that might make for an interesting secondary discussion about the particular challenges and rewards of online communications on really tough subjects, in general.

DIBS-- you may be right when you say that people who think that discussions of race and class on online forums is inappropriate should just not post. Indeed, I've pretty much adopted that strategy on this forum. (On some others I frequent, not as much). Although, I admit that, from time to time, I can't help myself from wading into the fray with my POV here. Fact is, I grew up in an activist, working class family during the Civil Rights era. As a result, I've been dealing with these issues both personally and professionally my whole life. So, it's hard for me to keep my mouth entirely shut -- even when I can't see the benefit of opening it to me -- or to anyone else! :-) Which again, kind of goes back to why I asked the question in the first place. My own hunch about the answer is that somewhere, underneath all the garbage that we sometimes manage to sling at each other in anonymous fashion when we're on this subject is really nothing more than an attempt to get others to notice our hurt. And, yes, I believe we're all hurtin' whether we are white, black, brown,red, yellow, other, gay, straight,trans, young, old, rich, poor, yada, yada, yada! But, yeah, now, I know I'm probably getting into " feminine","touchy- feely",or unsnarklike territory by going down this road. (Which I also know is not PC here). So,at least for now, I'll just put that thought out there and retreat.

One last thing for DIBS -- I've made a few feeble attempts to "connect" with you on this forum to no avail. I take it from your posts that we can be pretty far apart on these race and class issues and yet, I sense that, as just people living in Brooklyn in 2009, we are probably a whole lot closer than surface impressions might seem. Just a thought. FWIW, though, I will continue to post -- as you do -- when moved to and not by whether others invite my opinions or not. Peace out.

Posted by: Brooklynista at May 8, 2009 11:27 AM

I knew we wouldn't be disappointed with your response, What. As ignorant as Broklin.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:27 AM

This is silly to me - if there were white people from Park Slope complaining about "degentrification" in their neighborhoods - people moving in who happened to look different from them who don't act the way they want - it would be considered extremely racist.

No different here - when on earth did it become impossible to be racist towards white people?

Neighborhoods are dynamic and always changing. I always try to be a good neighbor wherever I live - but i'm sick and tired of the sense of entitlement, covert racism and flat out lying I hear when it comes to this issue.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 11:30 AM

I suspect that we're not actually far apart at all Brooklynista. I took your first post about not posting as, well, a non post and waste of space.

The last one weas something that I certainly agree with you on. If anything, a forum like this shows you other people's true feelings or maybe just a made up internet personna to bait others, either way, the disuccion is valid for lack of other more face to face and probaly unrealistic in this day and age forums.

thanks for trying to connect, perhaps I mistook other times for something else.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:32 AM

rob,

heres the problem. These people buying million dollar homes make up maaaaybe 5% of the population of these areas. Chances are you will not see or meet them on a daily basis or even a weekly. Many of these white homeowners might have bought 10-15 years ago. This sense of entitlement is carried on both sides of this shitfest. If Parez was hanging out in the park and I came up with my soccer ball and friends and asked her ass to move she would yell and thrown a bitchfit. Seriously, fuck this rich lady. She is just as high and mighty as these rich home owners shes complaining about.

also about bensonhurst and bayridge. Every italian I have met from these areas is pissssed about all these new people. They have been completely taken over and the reason all of the new comers dont complain is that they are in the same boat. New comers in a new area. If white people didnt jack up prices in these areas I would assume they would be filling up with asians and arabs. The Hassids have already taken over north bed stuy.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:34 AM

no one is being racist against white people dipster! as a "degentrifier" of park slope myself, i experience no such hatred because im white. i do however experience on a daily basis dirty stares, comments, and a general nasty attitude by the stereotypical stroller moms. and yes they were there before i moved to park slope. but that's not the point. the point is the that snooty attitudes of some MUST BE TAKEN DOWN A NOTCH. and it WILL happen, believe me.

*park slope degentrifier*

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 11:36 AM

dave,

I dont know your neighbors better than you do I just lived in the south for 16 years and understand how southeners act. I would bet you 100 bucks your neighbors have relatives that came from the south to new york. Im not saying they are fake but they are acting they way they do because of this southern connection they have. They say "hello" "thank you" "pardon me". I also would have to assume that these people you speak of are all over 50 and relavlity well off.

also how am I a douchebag? this whole thread is about assuming how people act and think that we've never met.

also if you havent spent a good amount of time in the south you have no idea what im talking about.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:38 AM

Thanks for showing your true colors Santa. Your a real "class act" as racists go.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:39 AM

WHAT.....I think you'll be surprised by my comments on Caton Place.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:39 AM

this has nothing to do with race. white women and black women in the south act the same way. The "they" in my statement refers to "people from the south" not "black people".

but think what you like.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:42 AM

also pulling the "racist" card is weak and you know it.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:43 AM

Consider me done with this thread and this topic.

Nothing but a bunch of whiners and lunatics.

You all need to get over your over inflated sense of self-worth and just get on with it.

Peace. Out.

Posted by: LimestoneKid at May 8, 2009 11:46 AM

I was talking about your 11:34 rant when I called you a racist. Perhaps you need a rewrite but it sounded absolutely ridiculous to me.

Like this....

"If white people didnt jack up prices in these areas I would assume they would be filling up with asians and arabs. The Hassids have already taken over north bed stuy.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:34 AM

Absolutely ridiculous, uneducated and plain stupid.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:47 AM

"
I knew we wouldn't be disappointed with your response, What. As ignorant as Broklin."

Why because you don't agree with it?!? Plus I don't buy that Bullshit you neighbors like you Dave! You come off as a Pompous Scum-Bag Asshat here at Brownstoner and I'll willing to bet your neighbors can't stand you! Matter of fact I'm willing to bet that someone is "Scheming" on you right this very second! You are a fucking retard Dave and you will have your Ass handed to you very very soon!

Oh to the rest of the Retards just keep on keeping on. Just pretend that this is your neighborhood and everyone "Loves" you! Keep on having Black Nannies pushing your kids around in predominantly Black Neighborhoods stirring up resentment!

The What (Keep on Keeping on!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 8, 2009 11:47 AM

I have two different black girlfriends who totally turn their nose up at my Brooklyn neighborhood and wouldn't live here. (However unfair their assessment). White women aren't the only demographic on the planet who want a certain quality of life and amenities. How absurd. Rosie needs to get a clue. She's also taking an anti-environment stance as high density cities are better for the environment than suburban sprawl.

Posted by: traditionalmod at May 8, 2009 11:48 AM

So what's the point? Very few neighborhoods have stayed the same over the years. But instead of being open and welcoming, we're all xenophobic and so we miss out the benefits and delights of meeting new people and learning about new cultures. It really is a shame. Ethnic enclaves have their place but no one owns neighborhoods. It would be just so much nicer if we believed more in sharing turf instead of circling our wagons. And that's on both sides.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 8, 2009 11:49 AM

I spent about a year in the "south"

Southerners are also very racist

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 11:49 AM

The idea that “a person of color” would be snubbed in FG/CH is ludicrous. One of the best things about the nabe is how well integrated it is between people of all races and socio-econ status'. And as someone accurately pointed out earlier (Miss Priss?) and you don’t move to this area if you’re afraid of blacks, hispanics or any other race/ethnicity. And I don’t dig this limousine liberal crapola about gentrification being a bad thing either. It’s ludicrous that Rosie somehow still identifies as a "homegirl" when she's living in a multi-million dollar brownstone on one of the best blocks in Ft Greene- so her home is not contributing to gentrification? Explica me mucho!?

Posted by: dokas at May 8, 2009 11:51 AM

I like your "black nannies" injection, What. That was a particularly good touch to try and make something out of nothing.

just because I act a certain way to you doesn't mean I act that way to "normal, civilized, sensible" people.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 11:52 AM

""If white people didnt jack up prices in these areas I would assume they would be filling up with asians and arabs. The Hassids have already taken over north bed stuy.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 11:34 AM

Absolutely ridiculous, uneducated and plain stupid."

how is this stupid, racist and uneducated? Asians and arabs have moved into many parts of brooklyn which were affordable and had easy access to manhattan (sunset park, bay ridge). How could this have not happened to Fort Greene?

also yes most southeners are racist but so are most notheners.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 12:01 PM

also yes most southeners are racist but so are most notheners.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 12:01 PM

Wow, you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. I suggest you quit now while you're semi-behind.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 8, 2009 12:09 PM

"also yes most southeners are racist but so are most notheners."

there's no comparison between the north and south when it comes the racial tensions.

god this topic is so played out - but rosie looks fantastic in that picture.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:10 PM

ha i gotta go eat some food.

also has Rosie been in any good movies besides White Man Cant Jump?

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 12:13 PM

pineapple express?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:17 PM

i can agree with that

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 12:20 PM

Well according to IMDB and wikipedia - she was born and grew up in Bushwick, and went to high school in Queens.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:20 PM

> "there's no comparison between the north and south when it
> comes the racial tensions. "

True. I grew up in the south. Then I moved to Boston.

Boston was far more racist.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 8, 2009 12:21 PM

Where in the south snark?

to be fair some states in the south are better then others.

yeah boston is pretty bad too haha.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:37 PM

Deep down everyone hates change. Deep down everyone is a bit racist/classist.

We all suck. We all just don't want to admit it. Threads like these make people who feel guilty about pangs of racism/calssism feel better about themselves. They get to defend how they want to feel and absolve themselves of their own ironic, hypocritical guilt about how they truly feel.

Rosie is hot. That shirt of hers made my week...

Posted by: christopher at May 8, 2009 12:37 PM

"and yes they were there before i moved to park slope. but that's not the point"

Sure it is. You should obviously try harder to fit in and stop expecting everything to adapt to you.

Posted by: Smudge at May 8, 2009 12:38 PM

"Rosie is hot. That shirt of hers made my week..."

Yeah Boyee Rosie got a Rack on her! I love to get familiar with those Ta-Ta's..

The What (Come to Daddy)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at May 8, 2009 12:47 PM

but smudgie, im not a gentifier, im a degentrifier. so your point is totally moot. this thread is ridiculous tho and brings out the worst in all of us. ugh how i was throwing ink balloons off my roof right now at nannies.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 12:48 PM

...just had to respond to miss priss on this one. Just because a white woman is married to a person of color, doesn't mean she isn't afraid of other people of color. I have a lot of white friends who are dating black men or whatever...they may not be afraid of their man, but that doesn't mean they aren't afraid.

I see it all the time.

Posted by: roofrights at May 8, 2009 12:48 PM

I am most afraid of any person under the age of 22 at the moment regardless of their color -
youth today are downright scary!

Posted by: gemini10 at May 8, 2009 12:51 PM

anyone else feel like gouging their eyes out right now with a rusty butter knife?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:52 PM

Man, being on west coast time means you miss all the action in the morning. This was a fairly typical melee for a topic such as this on a board such as this but some people should be complimented for stepping above the fray and trying to elevate the discussion. I thought Maly's initial post was really spot on, and of course Putnam Denizen and Brooklynista both raised interesting points about whether or not it is possible to have a worthwhile discussion on such loaded topics on an anonymous internet board. I personally do think that important ground can be covered in a forum like this and I do try to give my fellow commenters the benefit of the doubt most of the time. As someone who lives on a very racially mixed block I definitely spend a good bit of time thinking about how to bridge differences and about how I am perceived by my neighbors. Clinton Hill really is a kind of "ground zero" for these kinds of issues because, in my opinion, it is one of the most ethnically/racially mixed neighborhoods in the city. For the most part I think it operates as such pretty well. I don't doubt that real resentments exist between different race and class groups but I am fairly proud of the neighborhood as a place where the historical mistrusts between different ethnic/racial/demographic groups is melting away.

On a separate note: I wonder how the movie star part of Rosie Perez would like being approached and chatted with by her neighbors. In my experience, that level of public notoriety cuts a person off from the "common" people around them.

Posted by: wasder at May 8, 2009 12:53 PM

"but smudgie, im not a gentifier, im a degentrifier. so your point is totally moot."

Why? Are only gentrifiers supposed to fit in rather than change the neighborhood? Park Slope is full of snooty unfriendly stroller Nazis, everyone knows that. Why should people moving in complain about that any more than new people should complain about, say, loud music in Bushwick?

Posted by: Smudge at May 8, 2009 12:54 PM

DH- did that. What else ya got?

Posted by: bxgrl at May 8, 2009 12:55 PM

anyone else feel like gouging their eyes out right now with a rusty butter knife?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 12:52 PM

OR walnuts.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 8, 2009 12:56 PM

> Boston was far more racist.

Oh so true, Boston is the only place I've ever been called the n word to my face. The bigot was a high-school aged girl and the year was 2001. Quite jolting for someone who worked and went to school in the deep south with no such open hostility.

Regarding the debate, there is no use in talking about a topic where no one wants to honestly assess how quickly Ft. Greene has changed in the past 5 years. The perfect example is the Soul Summit that used to be held every Sunday afternoon in Ft. Greene Park. This popular event attracted all classes and colors and was generally regarded as a uniquely Ft. Greene experience. A few years ago Brooklyn Record had a posting about it and there were comments made about the Summit attracting dangerous looking people, which was a complete lie. Fast forward to 2009 and the event is only allowed to be held once the entire summer, much to the disappointment of the promoters and attendees. What is a reasonable person supposed to think is the cause behind the roadblocks the promoter has had to deal with every year?

Posted by: streetwise at May 8, 2009 12:58 PM

"anyone else feel like gouging their eyes out right now with a rusty butter knife?"

Before or after I stick my head in a vat of boiling oil?

Trying to decide which will be less painful than reading this thread.

Posted by: cobblehiller at May 8, 2009 1:01 PM

I already did my eyes. Maybe we could go to the streetcar thread and get run over.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 8, 2009 1:01 PM

Is *Rob* actually Rosie's breasts (nice augmentation, by the way) typing away while Rosie is getting her beauty sleep?

*Rob*, meet Broklyn, marry him/her, have some kids, and move to NJ - FOREVER, please!

Posted by: bupe at May 8, 2009 1:04 PM

yes this is getting tired
I can't even comment b/c I live in that horrible village called Park Slope and wouldn't dare dream to comment on the wonderful eden that Ft. Greene is
hahahahaha

Posted by: gemini10 at May 8, 2009 1:07 PM

If we're being allowed to choose our own fate, I'll opt to be suffocated to death by Rosie's bodaciousl pupusas.

(Sorry, but this thread seems to be going nowhere, but for another of wasder's thoughtful and balanced posts)

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 8, 2009 1:07 PM

quote:

dude calm down. im not trying to change them. i dont care. i moved to park slope cuz i wanted a safe place for myself and my dog and somewhere clean. that's all! i dont even talk to people in park slope, unlike how i used to talk to everyone in harlem. people in park slope are in general just not my kind of people, that's fine. they can do what they want. live and let live! now if only people took that attitude when moving into un park slope-ish neighborhoods things would be fine! and yes ill flick my ciggie ash in your stroller (not on the baby of course) if it's in my way, much like rosie should pop those ladies in the nose on the stroller field like they deserve! it's nyc, not gingerbread land!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 1:10 PM

oh and FYI the ash in the stroller thing was just metaphor, i wouldnt do that. im not sure why that just popped into my head hahaha.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 1:11 PM

oh the ash comment was metaphorical btw i would never do that!!!! (tried to comment that in but i dont know if i went thru)

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 1:13 PM

Hey, gang! Go over to the Forum & put in your two cents about a Classified section on here.

Posted by: Arkady at May 8, 2009 1:15 PM

"dude calm down. im not trying to change them. i dont care. i moved to park slope cuz i wanted a safe place for myself and my dog and somewhere clean. that's all! i dont even talk to people in park slope, unlike how i used to talk to everyone in harlem. people in park slope are in general just not my kind of people, that's fine. they can do what they want. live and let live! now if only people took that attitude "

The What tosses Rob a box of Skittles! ROB puts his money where is mouth is! He lives in Park Slope! Maybe some of the retards can take a que from him!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 8, 2009 1:16 PM

rob,

the problem is that you live in the absolute wrong area of park slope. If I remember correctly you pointed out you live somewhere around 1st street and 6th ave. I live just on the other side of flatbush and rarely see strollers and the area is just as "clean" and "safe" as park slope. Its also cheaper. Even the area around 16th street and 5th ave has no stollers and cheaper than where you live.

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 1:20 PM

biff--there could be far worse fates!

Posted by: wasder at May 8, 2009 1:23 PM

Rob - you probably just love walking past CT Muffin on a Sat morning? - hahah that place is horrible with all the stroller brigade - it's actually kinda rude

Posted by: gemini10 at May 8, 2009 1:28 PM

" i dont even talk to people in park slope, unlike how i used to talk to everyone in harlem. people in park slope are in general just not my kind of people, that's fine. "

OK, so you left Harlem because it wasn't safe and clean enough for you and your dog. But you don't talk to the locals in your new neigborhood because they're not your kind of people. Oh, and while you're not talking to them, you're plotting ways to TAKE THEM DOWN A NOTCH. That's just hilarious. Keep fighting the good fight, Degentrification Man!

Posted by: Smudge at May 8, 2009 1:29 PM

I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for the stroller moms. They're taking a lot of hits. Weren't all of us in strollers at one time being pushed by (hopefully loving) moms and dads?

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 8, 2009 1:31 PM

actually it was more unsafe in the apartment i lived in harlem than it was OUTSIDE for both me and my dog, mentally and physically, i had to get out of there. i originally was looking at shares in bushwick but i stumbled upon a very perfect share in park slope and jumped at the chance for it. i had no intention of ever living in park slope. but i will admit i do love it. stuff happens! it's fun to hate on park slope moms but really ive never actually had a real problem with any of them. are they crazy? yes. do i look them in the eye? hells to the no!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 8, 2009 1:33 PM

There is a scene in White Men Can't Jump where you catch a glimpse of her bare shirt fillers. I might have to go home and dig that DVD out...

Posted by: christopher at May 8, 2009 1:33 PM

"There is a scene in White Men Can't Jump where you catch a glimpse of her bare shirt fillers. I might have to go home and dig that DVD out."

shwing.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 1:37 PM

We need more minerals from the top of the waterfall!!!

Have a peaceful weekend, you nut jobs; your collective productivity on a Friday must be staggering.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at May 8, 2009 1:38 PM

Biff - true
but if you have ever been to CT Muffin on a Sat morning on 7th avenue in PS, you would know what I am talking about. You can't get in the door b/c of all the moms and their strollers blocking the entrance on the outside. But wait, then you get to particpiate in "Stroller Duel Saturdays" when you have 2-3 stroller moms on the inside cramped at the 2 tables they have inside.
it's a zoo
sorry if I am offending anyone - but it's too much

Posted by: gemini10 at May 8, 2009 1:40 PM

White women with strollers also love it when you walk up to them on a quiet street and say,

"Don't I look normal? I'm a total psychopath. Can I play with your kid?"

Posted by: infinitejester at May 8, 2009 1:46 PM

*checking in as only poster who doesn't think rosie is hot*

Posted by: infinitejester at May 8, 2009 1:47 PM

Does Rosie have a brother????

Discussion on the race/class/nabe issue over.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 2:21 PM

dave in bed stuy."judging by the way she speaks, accent?' wtf? i'm sorry. is there a ft green dialect that in in my 27 years here i am missing? for your information.
rosie is born and raised in bushwick- before it was eat williamsburg heights.
she's lived in the nabe for at least 20 years. first on carlton in a modest brownstone, which she rented an apt,
she bought her place on clinton maybe 10 or more years ago.
so, lets see. a "celebrity" house is bad but a "regular" house is ok?
those of us who have lived here for many years feel as though the neighborhood has changed- drastically and not always for the best. we feel isolated and many of us are troubled by a new wave of entitled, self absorbed and somewhat less than friendly of people who have moved in. this negative attitude is not exclusive to FG. there is a "it's all about me" vibe many 20- early 30 somethings express. it is why it is difficult for many of us old timers to forge relationships with, some, of the newer residents. because they are too busy hurrying to the new hot spot than to notice their neighbors. they see this as a destination spot.
many of us raised kids here. having a child isn't rocket science. to act as though you have done something that only you can accomplish and then ask the rest of us to marvel and rearrange our life, side walks, resturants etc so that little phineas can ride his scooter without any regard for other people is insulting, to anyone! when my children and my frien'd kids, as well,were young, if they acted up inside of an establishment they were taken outside and told to cool it . we did not expect the other adult patrons to indulge our children's bad behaviour. if they saw an adult coming down the streets, they either moved to the side so the adult, especially elderly, got by, or, if they were younger, we picked the kid up and moved them. we didn't ask other people to navigate their ways around a two year old who has no idea that he/she is in the way. we showed by example that we live in a world with other people.

it is this oblivious attitude expressed by some of the new people, along with the idea that us oldsters should be thrilled that there's a new "hot" bar/resturant/flea market that bothers some of us.again. there is a middle ground between crack dealers and 22 dollar entrees. is it nice to have new places, sure. is this neighborhood WAY too small to handle all the new traffic? yes. it's a huge crush of people. it's taking a while for some who are used to living in a relatively small, quiet area to handle a lot of people, who do not live here and are not invested in being here. 10 years ago chez oscar, sol began to pop up-and they were fun, don't get me wrong- a few people said'oh you must be so happy now. you must feel so much more comfortable--translation- there's more white people. nasty attitude is nasty attitude, black or white.

rosie is a lovely, smart, funny, talented woman. leave her alone .

Posted by: ramona at May 8, 2009 3:03 PM

rosie perez is a notoriously bad actress i assume. i never heard of her.

Posted by: mcKenzie at May 8, 2009 4:13 PM

mckenzie
you make assumptions because yuou've never heard of it. sweet.
shall we assume you're not intelligent because we've never heard of you?
oh. she's an oscar nominee, fyi.

Posted by: ramona at May 8, 2009 4:46 PM

* Do the Right Thing (1989) .... Tina
* Criminal Justice (1990) .... Denise Moore
* Night on Earth (1991) .... Angela
* White Men Can't Jump (1992) .... Gloria Clemente
* Untamed Heart (1993) .... Cindy
* Fearless (1993) .... Carla Rodrigo
* It Could Happen to You (1994) .... Muriel Lang
* Somebody to Love (1994) .... Mercedes
* Thumbelina(1995).... Thumbelina
* A Brother's Kiss (1997) .... Debbie
* Subway Stories: Tales from the Underground (1997) .... Mystery Girl
* Perdita Durango (1997) .... Perdita Durango
* The 24 Hour Woman (1999) .... Grace Santos
* The Road to El Dorado (2000) (voice) .... Chel
* Human Nature (2001) .... Louise
* Riding in Cars with Boys (2001) .... Shirley Perr
* King of the Jungle (2001) .... Joanne
* Widows (2002) .... Linda
* From the 104th Floor (2003) (voice) .... Narrator
* Exactly (2004) ....Angela
* Lackawanna Blues (2004) ....Bertha
* Just Like the Son (2006) .... Mrs. Ponders
* The Take (2008) ....Marina De La Pena
* Pineapple Express (2008) .... Officer Carol Brazier
* Lipstick Jungle (2008) ....Dahlia

Posted by: Santa at May 8, 2009 5:01 PM

ramona, you missed the point on the accent. Of course its not a Ft greene accent which is what my point was.

Your sentence "there is a middle ground between crack dealers and 22 dollar entrees. " is spot on however your translation about things changing to make you feel more comfortable meaning more white people is ridiculous. It just means that you've got less crack and mor other options.

Nasty attitude IS nasty attitude, black or white.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 8, 2009 5:02 PM

Phineas is a great name! And spot on for a representative of the newer set, of all races. Ramona I salute you if you were able to instill politeness in your kids. Most of us (of all races) struggle with it. I regret to say that the kids I see who appear to be those of longer term residents don't especially impress me with their gentility. They seem, well, just to be kids. I've had to ask more than a few kids coming from PS 56 not to throw trash in my front yard; most have complied. Speaking of trash, I find the act of simply picking it up on a systematic basis to be strangely satisfying. Perhaps we who have posted here should commit ourselves to picking up one piece for evey word we have posted here. Much more concrete, and more likely to bring smiles to our neighbors, of whatever hue, persuasion, knockerhood, or Oscar-nominated status.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 8, 2009 6:02 PM

Hear, hear, Ramona. You hit on what I perceive as the real issue here. I would bet that the vast majority of the new residents in FG are products of the suburbs. They do not understand (nor care to learn) the dynamics and rules of the city- rules like the ones you mention regarding children. As a product of a working class urban community, you respected the rules/mores of a neighborhood when you entered it. Many of the newly-urbanized suburban people appear to be playing "city life" instead of understanding it. Ooh, block party, how cute, how kitschy, how real. I find it offensive because there is no attempt to blend in with the community, but to remake the community in your suburbanized image. I would bet money that these are the issues that bother Rosie, as they do a large number of us.

Many of the attitudes expressed on this site scream I'm an overprivileged suburban white person who wants to be cool living in the city. It's fine if you want to flee the suburbs, just don't bring your attitudes and ways with you.

Posted by: orestes at May 8, 2009 6:04 PM

With a rack like that, she can say whatever she wants and I won't hold it against her!

Posted by: Big Jugs at May 8, 2009 6:18 PM

tell you what dave. when the food in the "new" ft greene cost as much as crack i can afford to eat out.
my point 'bout comfort was that the implication was that i SHOULD feel more comfortable if i'm seeing more white folks.
white people make me nervous. all those boys in shrunken pants looking like 12 year old girls? yikes!

Posted by: ramona at May 8, 2009 7:03 PM

Hahaha Ramona - that made me laugh!

May I suggest doing a little research on white people so we don't seem as scary to you? I recommend the site below as an entertaining and informative read in between arguing with us Asshats on Brownstoner:

http:\\www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com

Cheers!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 7:28 PM

Funny what Ramona said - comparing white men to 12 year old girls - didn't make me laugh. It just confirmed how hard it is to have respectful conversations about these issues. Perhaps she meant it in the light hearted way which you have chosen to interpret it, but I fear, given her earlier less then complimentary and loving comments about white children that she is more comfortable disparaging the manhood of the "other" than she is in seeking common ground. Name calling in this context is disappointing, but hardly surprising.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 8, 2009 8:06 PM

I think it might be nice to have a break from all the snarkiness. I get along great with all the folks on my block, from the old guy on the corner who fixes his van half the time, to the newest couples with their young babies.

Not all of Brooklyn is full of battles between new folks and long-established residents.

Okay, you can now return to snarking.

Posted by: phrooch at May 8, 2009 8:37 PM

I agree Putnamdenizen - but given Ramona's previous comments, all one can do is laugh as it is clear this isn't about expensive cafes and strollers.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 8, 2009 9:06 PM

putnadenizen
first- i'm white-white, white and then some more white.
second i am refering to a bad fashion trend- started by designers
like thom brown, which features very tight, super slim, super small clothes. when you put shrunken suits and shorts on a grown man he looks childish; straight, gay whatever. it's a stupid, sexless look- as bad as the girls wearing baby doll dresses when they're kissing up to 35.
fine- grown men dressed like 12 year old boys.ok? my point is that it's a sexless, dweeby, super silly fashion- just as ginormous droopy jeans looks dumb
oh. did i mention i was WHITE!!!!!!! to quote the great kool moe dee- how ya like me , now?

Posted by: ramona at May 8, 2009 10:12 PM

did i mention i'm white---and so are some of my best friends. funny how that you'd assume when i'm talking children being raisedpoorly(and i blame the parents NOT the kids( you assume i speak of the whites.

Posted by: ramona at May 8, 2009 10:16 PM

These threads tend to degenerate so fast, which is a shame. There is something really interesting going on in FG / CH right now - from many angles. There is class consciousness, racial tension, and the ramifications of gentrification on a neighborhood with important history. There's the intentional rezoning (and "yuppification") of downtown BK and all that means for the surrounding areas - overloaded classrooms, transit strains, lack of parking and eventually a lack of affordable goods. It's enough of an issue to merit citywide attention on WNYC. But in the end, all we end up doing is arguing anonymously.

Here's an idea: since Brownstoner is so good at organizing things (and thanks, by the way, for making it impossible to get into a restaurant on a Saturday afternoon in Fort Greene,) why don't we organize a community meeting to discuss these issues face to face?

It could even be in Fort Greene or Clinton Hill, unlike the NY Times recent event! Give back to the community you mine for profit, Brownstoner. I already know my neighbors, but I want to meet these people posting who seem to have such a bad opinion of me because I don't fit their mold. I want them to see that I am not here to disrespect or abuse the neighborhood, and I want to learn from their perspective and shared history.

It's so easy to construct biases based on lack of information. If we were all in a room, shaking hands and looking each other in the eye, I doubt comments like some of the nastier ones above would be made.

Brownstoner, I challenge you to make something real out of this. You have the tools at your disposal, even if Thurston Moore doesn't show up.

Posted by: chorosch at May 8, 2009 11:42 PM

In response to the question from Limestonekid about the Clinton Hill Co-op Apts:
The buildings that are now the Clinton Hill Co-ops were built in the '30s as housing for Navy Yard workers; they went coop in the '80s. However, no renters were evicted, although many of them bought their apartments. I think that is why there are still many wonderful elderly people living in the coops today (some of them are widows of Navy Yard workers). Since we moved in here 3 years ago, we have met many interesting neighbors, and have experienced nothing but friendliness. People actually talk to you in the courtyard, say "Good Morning!" and "Have a nice evening" in the elevators, and chat in the laundry room. They may not be the most beautiful buildings in this neighborhood, but they are full of nice people.

Posted by: brooklynette at May 9, 2009 2:52 AM

Ramona - your "gotcha" moment of "I'm white" doesn't detract from the fact that you limited your comments about a clothing style to "white men" not hipster men. I tried to engage you on the kids issue with giving you the benefit of the doubt on your racial subtext (which is pretty strong!); you chose to ignore that. The "other" I referred to can just as easily be a tension between the classes as races. I still can't get why you think belittling a certain style of clothing would advance this conversation. In my middle aged body I would feel no more comfortable in little boy clothes than I would in the still here (after 20 years!) habit of waddling around with your belt on your thighs and your ass hanging out. Oo that felt good to write, but it wasn't responsible, respectful or on topic.

Ramona, whatever your race it takes work to have these conversations and a sense of generosity of spirit which most of us find it hard to maintain. Good luck with Phineas, Kofi, Ashante, and Fiona - I hear they are having a toddler scooter drag race of Dekalb today!

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 9, 2009 8:55 AM

"gotcha" ? i've been white my whole life LOL!!!

peace out- ccol?

Posted by: ramona at May 9, 2009 10:11 AM

All of this talk about her cleavage is ridiculous and silly. She obviously wasn't wearing the outfit in the photo above on at the WNYC event.

Here's an actual pic. Quite respectable actually.

http://vassifer.blogs.com/alexinnyc/2009/05/really-rosie.html

Posted by: RufusStripe at May 9, 2009 10:13 AM

Clearly everyone up here loves Brooklyn (or at least I would hope so). And yet, for me, Chorosch had the only interesting and intelligent comment regarding this story.

I wish more commenters took Brownstoner to task and challenged him to do something substantial instead of encouraging these anonymous bickering fests.

Posted by: prospectparker409 at May 9, 2009 11:32 AM

Chorosch, your suggestion of a community meeting is wonderful and your points are on target, but a community meeting may only foster more community anger. I witnessed inability to listen and take residents' concerns seriously, eye-rolling, denigration, and manipulation by those with power and privilege at last summer's Brooklyn Flea meeting. Flea owners eventually worked to alleviate the concerns of nearby institutions, yet residential neighbors were shut down, shut out, told "live with it" (we do). This was a very negative experience for some residents used to being able to work directly with local businesses, and this enterprise is enormous.

One of the saddest and most telling comments at that meeting was Mr. Butler's own early statement that he had lived in the neighborhood for four years and the meeting was the first time he was truly meeting his neighbors.

Posted by: sydney8 at May 9, 2009 12:26 PM

For those interested, the Clinton Hill Co-Ops were built between 1943 and 1955, in response to the WWII housing shortage (NYT article "Equitable Life Sells Brooklyn Development" July 7, 1958). So far, I see no mention of community activism against the '41/'42 sale or later demolition of the Pouch Mansion (No. 345) in the Brooklyn Eagle at fultonhistory.com or in the NYT. The Brooklyn neighborhoods which supported the Navy Yard entered a "downturn" about 60 years ago when WWII's economic boom ended, the growth of car culture (help from with Robert Moses) enabled suburban growth (even farther out in what is now Brooklyn), etc. That downturn is the same one that only ended within the last ten years, but may now be replaced by this one.

Posted by: sydney8 at May 9, 2009 12:52 PM

cool.

Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 9, 2009 3:58 PM

I think a meeting is a GREAT idea, and I wrote to Mr. B. asking him to do it. Invite Rosie and Nelson George! Ask Brian Lehrher/WNYC to sponsor! Every MLK Day, he does a wonderful panel discussion on race at the Brooklyn Museum. I've been once and I was so impressed.

Roberta
white, single mom to a 13-year-old girl from China raised in Clinton Hill and now in Bed-Stuy

Posted by: rf at May 9, 2009 5:28 PM

the neighborhood needs to have a mtg about the flea.
at first i was one who thought, oh. come on! it's fun. what's the harm? those cranky QOAS people!
that was then. it is almost impossible to get up and down lafayette on a saturday. half of the time i have to walk in the street because the sidewalks are crowded from curb to stoop.the neighborhood-which really is not that big land wise(maybe 1/2 that of, say park slope) is very noisy, congested, constant car traffic bikes, it's as bad as being in the city on a weekend. that the flea is also a big factor in FG's status as place to be seen not to live, is almost besides the point. the flea is just too big and it seems that as big as it is, gauging by the relentless press attention, the organizers want it to be bigger!
seriously what does FG/CH get from the flea? certainly loughlin gets some $ but while it is a fine school,alma mater of "Action" Jackson!) it's a private school -meaning it has other sources of income. maybe some local resturants get some $ but now that there's enough food vendors to open a resturant, that seems unlikely. the intentions are good but with a third flea opening a fun quirky market is now a chain. i begrudge no one getting the chance to earn a living-especially now, but the rights of those who live here should be as high of a priority as those who want to make money and then clear out .
what about the flea being open once a month? between the spillover from habana(nice guys who actually do A LOT for the area and the flea, saturdays are like being stuck in a mosh pit.
i think community board 2, tish and the flea folks need to have a sit down.the flea is fun but now it's close to infestation.

Posted by: ramona at May 9, 2009 7:24 PM

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