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May 4, 2009

Rosie and Nelson Redux

Did any of you just listen to Rosie Perez and Nelson George discussing the impact of gentrification on the neighborhoods of Fort Greene and Clinton Hill? We find Nelson's nostalgic but realistic take on things quite interesting to hear; he's clearly thought through a lot of these issues. Rosie's relatively un-nuanced views, however, rubbed us the wrong way. Her main point seems to be that she doesn't know as many people when she walks down the street but (1) she's a movie star now, which impacts how people view and interact with you and (2) we don't get the sense she's even around very much. In the four years we've been taking our kids to school just a few houses away from hers, we've never laid eyes on her; in fact, we're not sure we've ever seen the shutters on her house open! (Her house also has the obligatory-for-a-Brooklyn-celeb attached garage.) She was complaining about how people fight over tennis courts in Fort Greene Park now--and then a caller reminded her that she used to have bricks thrown at her by local kids when she was playing tennis. We get how people can miss (and idealize) things from the past, but Fort Greene and Clinton Hill have to be some of the friendliest, most neighborly, streets to walk down in the entire city. How about a little love!




Posted by Brownstoner at 11:42 AM | Comments (85)
Categories: Clinton Hill, Fort Greene

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Comments

As much as I find Rosie Perez to be a decent actor, sexy and certainly part of NYC's charm, I must say comments like these make me want to kick her in the shins. Her comments are similar to Spike Lee, down for Brooklyn but living the Manhattan lifestyle. Disengeneous to say the least.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at May 4, 2009 11:47 AM

I guess you don't get around the city much. I would beg to differ that "Fort Greene and Clinton Hill have to be some of the friendliest, most neighborly, streets to walk down in the entire city." There are so many neighborhoods, granted most not lined with beautiful brownstones, that are way more friendlier and much more neighborly than either Fort Greene or Clinton Hill.

Posted by: Chosen at May 4, 2009 11:49 AM

like Megan from Charm School and Rock of Love says, "jealousy is a disease"

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 4, 2009 11:49 AM

"(Her house also has the obligatory-for-a-Brooklyn-celeb attached garage.)"

Do I detect a green eyed monster?

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 11:49 AM

i think you do ENY

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 4, 2009 11:52 AM

I believe there have been a number a shootings and murders in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill over the last few years. Just like Back in the Day. Really friendly.

Posted by: NewYawker at May 4, 2009 11:56 AM

"I believe there have been a number a shootings and murders in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill over the last few years. Just like Back in the Day. Really friendly."

A rather grisly murder in Carroll Gardens last month. Just like back in the day. Really friendly.

Whats your point?

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at May 4, 2009 11:59 AM

Rosie Perez is still considered a celebrity? She hasn't been significant since she was in White Men Can't Jump. Her accent is probably the 2nd most nauseating in the world next to Fran Drescher's

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 12:02 PM

It's been about 12 years since I played tennis in Fort Greene Park, but people fought over the courts even back then.

Posted by: tasteslikechicken at May 4, 2009 12:05 PM

The idea of Fran Drescher and Rosie Perez in a room together is too much for my libido to handle.

Posted by: Prodigal_Son at May 4, 2009 12:05 PM

I think Brownstoner has a point...


FWIW- A lot of businesses in Clinton Hill and Fort Greene should be thankful for what is happening there every Saturday with the hundreds of people who come to the neighborhood for the Flea. While these neighborhoods were always popular, I cannot fathom that they were attracting the Manhattan (and the other boroughs, etc) crowd on a sunny spring day like they are now. The Flea has made a nice neighborhood even better; locals are also benefiting with stoop sales, etc.

Posted by: Fjorder at May 4, 2009 12:06 PM

I agree with Brownstoner. These complaints are a luxury few other neighborhoods in the WORLD have. "All these new people come here and fall in love with it and want to live here and start families and play tennis and support the small, local, owner-operated businesses!!!!! the horror!"

It's like a beautiful chick complaining about the attention.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 12:22 PM

" In the four years we've been taking our kids to school just a few houses away from hers, we've never laid eyes on her; in fact, we're not sure we've ever seen the shutters on her house open!"

SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!! SHARK JUMPING ALERT!!!!

The FONZ (Happy Days was canceled the next season)

Someday this war war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at May 4, 2009 12:24 PM

I actually agree with The What on this one. Who knows how long this area will remain as idyllic as it is now? So like I said before, it's a luxury to feel all that love in a place. Enjoy it while it lasts, people.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 12:31 PM

........"A lot of businesses in Clinton Hill and Fort Greene should be thankful for what is happening there every Saturday with the hundreds of people who come to the neighborhood for the Flea."......

What's wrong with you people? Really? The Flea is not the best thing that has happened to Fort Greene or Clinton Hill. Businesses did well in the area before the flea.

What the newcomers to FG/CH should be grateful for is the fact that people who've made this place their home for years aren't revolting against your presence and condescending mannerisms.
It really was peaceful, more spacious, friendlier, and a quiet comfortable melting pot before you came with your "feel good" improvements.
- We didn't insult deliverymen
- We could park on the streets where we lived
- We didn't have a congested tennis courts in FG park
- Unappetizing restaurants were non-existent (now anything goes)
- Dog feces was not strewn along the sidewalks
- I never saw drunks staggering along DeKalb Ave.
- People were nicer to each other
-I didn't have bus loads of people gawking at me like I was out of place
- I could get a piece of cheesecake in 5 minutes (now there's always a god awful line)
- The post office wasn't crowded all the time
- Whining was not how we started the day
- It didn't cost half million dollars to live in a box.
- There was no paranoia about black men minding their business in candy stores or the sex offender next door


the nabe sucks!

Posted by: The Who at May 4, 2009 12:39 PM

Rosie Perez is irrelevant (have to give it to DH on that one).

Thankfully, she doesn't live in Park Slope and thus doesn't miss the crack houses lining the streets by the park.

What a douchebag.

Posted by: bupe at May 4, 2009 12:40 PM

i understood exactly what she was saying and while it may not have been in the language that many of the readers of the blog could understand, what she was/is saying is that she is beginning to feel like the outsider in her own neighborhood. i happen to see her often still getting her hair done at the dominican beauty salon. i, personally, walk down the street, as an african american woman, and people expect me to move, i sit on my stoop and people look at me as if i am not supposed to be here. sometimes, it is not as friendly as it seems. my husband walks down the street and many white women and men will cross the street-he hardly looks like a so called "hoodlum". so, i believe that we have to listen to the concerns of all residents and while no one is pinning for the "good old days" we are pinning for a little respect.

Posted by: witchdoctor at May 4, 2009 12:51 PM

OHMYGOD, thanks for proving my point, the Who. The horrors you have to put up with!

I do want to thank the old timers who fought hard to make this area recognized by the LPC and protected from overdevelopment, and all the people who worked hard on Ft GreenePark, and all the people who continue to live here despite the gentrification, who see past surface and continue to love their area.

These struggles have been going on since long before the latest disgruntled "I was here first"s were here. And the struggles will continue for many generations after us. I am grateful for the people who pass on the torch, not bitch about how it was a better torch in the old days. Anyone who thinks the past was better than the present is either ill-informed or in denial.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 12:53 PM

i don't know where brownstoner has been, but i have seen Rosie on more than one occassion. most recently in Mike's diner on Dekalb. Also, she is the voice of one of the characters on 'go diego go'. so she is a 'celebrity' and caking off of that children's show!

Posted by: bkny at May 4, 2009 12:53 PM

TheWho, I dig your what-like opinion, but don't forget the bulletproof vest ya had to wear.

witchdoctor, maybe they cross the street cuz of your profession not your skin color.

Posted by: guest_poster at May 4, 2009 12:54 PM

Many of the long time residents especially those who own houses have embraced the changes. However, others who though they they might reap the benefits brought about by these changes in either increased employment and business opportunties or better housing and community services feel as though they are being left behind. They are no doubt glad to see their neighborhood improving but that does not mean that they don't have legitmate complaints.

BTW, perhaps beautiful chicks complain about attention because they'd rather receive attention for things that they had control over, like being nice or dependable instead of receiving attention for something that was the luck of their DNA.

Posted by: Chosen at May 4, 2009 12:55 PM

I lived in Clinton Hill (just up the block from Mr. B.) from 1989 to 2007, and I agree with What.

This was a perfectly wonderful neighborhood when I moved in. As a white woman, I learned a lot moving into a mostly-black (probably 98 percent then) neighborhood. I learned that I was a fool thinking I was a pioneer--almost everyone else living there had been there for years and years and they certainly didn't need my presence! It was a family neighborhood, with kids playing in the street every summer and parents sitting on the stoops watching them. I raised my child through age 11 on the block. Sure, it would have been nice to have a better supermarket, but I have that now in Bed-Stuy.

Although I love the Flea, I agree that the old neighborhood (what's left of it) doesn't need it. What they need is a safe place to raise their kids on working-class salaries, a place where families of color can feel comfortable. And that's not Clinton Hill anymore.

Posted by: rf at May 4, 2009 12:59 PM

Chosen, that's a good point. You do have more to live up to as a beautiful girl, you have to prove yourself worthy DESPITE the DNA. But if you know what you're worth, you see the attention objectively, you don't take it personally. However, if you feel inadequate, you feel the attention like an insult. That's not the attention-giver's fault; that's insecurity.

Also, I agree with you that places like Mike's Diner (mentioned above)get overlooked by the customers who prefer the restaurants either side of it for dinner. I sometimes go to Mike's just to be alone, when Bonita and the other joint are just too damn hipster-cheesy to deal with. (I mean, we didn't even get the cool pioneering hipsters that williamsburg once had, FG gets the bland yuppie kids with overpriced jeans and the park slope backwash). So I totally agree that a lot of the people cramming into the limited area are not interested in its inherent and old-school charm, and this just overhwhelms the subtle qualities that were once so obvious.

However, I think if yuo give it time, the buzz will settle down, the NY TIMES will moveon to a new pet area, and I think thepeople who do settle here, settle for life. Those people will be supportive of local businesses, old or new.

But, like the beautiful chick, the old businesses also have to prove themselves and not just rely on the luck of once having been the only diner on the block. It has to be Nice and Dependable -- maybe a better quality of beef for that burger? Some thought into the menu and the ingredients wouldn't hurt.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 1:06 PM

"I lived in Clinton Hill (just up the block from Mr. B.) from 1989 to 2007, and I agree with What."

That was The Who not me ; ^ }! The Who that was well written and well put!

This is another attempt to drive up traffic to a dying website. The collapse of the Mutant Asset Bubble has rendered Real Estate 'null and void''. Today we are concerned about living and meeting our needs. Let the retards worry about their "Equity" and "Housing Prices".

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 4, 2009 1:08 PM

rf: so 2% white is ok, but more than that is . . . not what the area needs? i'm trying to see it your way but it's looking really scary.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 1:11 PM

I don't think that these businesses rely on being the only ones on the block but if they change to much they lose their old customer base. Duncan'son Myrtle has done a good job of incorporating a new clientele while still serving the needs of the older residents. Other places haven't fared so well. If the greasy spoon diner now buys grass fed beef for their burgers instead of donkey meat or whatever it was in their burgers, they now have to charge more for that burger possibly making it no longer affordable for their old customers. It is truly a delicate balance.

I grew up in the Ingersoll Houses when they were at their worst. I do go back occassionally to visit the mothers of friends who got "caught up" and find that many of these women, who are getting up in years, have expressed that while they are happy that the crackheads and drug dealers are gone, they can't afford to shop in the area any longer and that they have to travel further away for basic goods. Some of them are awaiting transfers to other projects and others are heading south or back to the islands.

NYC has been gentrifying from the day that the Europeans "discovered it." Surely after 400 some odd years and thousands of Urban Planning programs at universities the world over, someone - not me - has got to know of a way to address the issues of gentrification in a way that the benefits most concerned.

Posted by: Chosen at May 4, 2009 1:30 PM

A few things: Rosie is around a lot, I see her. The secret of FG is out, with its proximity to Manhattan, great transportation options, nice public spaces, and other things. Any show where the host throws out there that the silver lining of the recession may be that FG goes back to the way it was and the guests don't call him an idiot indicates the participants in the show are only pretending to have an intellectual discussion.

Posted by: jawbreaker at May 4, 2009 1:31 PM

Chosen, thanks for that. Why not you? You seem to know quite a bit and I, for one, appreciate you sharing it with me.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 1:35 PM


"so 2% white is ok, but more than that is . . . not what the area needs? i'm trying to see it your way but it's looking really scary."

I don't think that's exactly what rf said....

"What they need is a safe place to raise their kids on working-class salaries, a place where families of color can feel comfortable."

Chosen makes good points. Change is ongoing and inevitable. There's no "blueprint" for gentrification. I'm sure we all appreciate positive change. However, it's naive and smacks of hubris to believe that longtime residents should necessarily "be thankful" for every aspect of change.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 1:50 PM

"A place where families of color can feel comfortable."

What does that MEAN????
What feels comfortable to families of color? White families? Asian families? Sounds like gated community suburbia talk. SCARY.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 1:55 PM

"What does that MEAN????"

Perhaps you wouldn't really know unless you were a person of color. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Again, change is coming, regardless. But the fact that you can't understand the perspective of people with whom you disagree doesn't make their views less legitimate or yours particularly valid.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 2:04 PM

oh I get it. You either get it or you don't, one of those feelings.

I guess I have felt that way before, that "I get it, they don't" mentality, but never been very proud of it.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 2:11 PM

Just the classic case of "I'm cooler then you because I lived in this neighborhood before it was cool"

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 2:15 PM

i see rosie all the time. debating her relative celebrity is obnoxious but then again, this is the site that posed the question about an educator's performance and possible tenure as a "yes""no" random poll.

and not to defend her but rosie was in pineapple express, does a lot of v/os. was on broadway recently and is a cool person.

as for the"new ft greene". no one wants crack back but crack was a city wide problem not contained to this area alone. i'm so tired of the rebuttal to people upset about the new attitude in the area is to make the case that there's no middle ground between crime and community. I have been here since the mid 80's. now i can go an entire day without seeing anyone i know and i'm not alone in this observation. i was out this past saturday. first i had to navigate my way down the street around strollers and parents standing in the middle of the street, talking, and blind to the idea that other people are trying to walk-and yes. i have kids. this neighborhood is too small to support all of the new events drawing throngs of outsiders. the flea is fun but the streets are blocked with oblivious hipsters. the crowd at habana(another nice place) spills over to the point where you have to walk in the street to get by. on warm days the park is so crowded there is no place to sit.it is starting to look and sound like bleecker street in the summer.
the neighborhood is no longer reasonable, there is a plethora of overpriced resturants catering to who knows who etc etc this used to be a friendly, look out for your neighbor place.with rare exception people don't acknowledge passerbys they get miffed if things don't change in their favor. they are angered by the things that made ft greene a nice place to live.i saw this place as "home". i raised a family here, dedicated myself to community events- this no longer feels like my home.it is now a destination place.

Posted by: ramona at May 4, 2009 2:23 PM

oh. one more thing. for as long as rosie has lived here she's been famous.

Posted by: ramona at May 4, 2009 2:25 PM


"Just the classic case of "I'm cooler then you because I lived in this neighborhood before it was cool"

Or, I don't like feeling like a stranger in the neighborhood where I was once an example of its identity.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 2:27 PM


"starting to look and sound like bleecker street in the summer."

I knew this would happen in Brooklyn one day. I just HOPED it wouldn't.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 2:29 PM

"Or, I don't like feeling like a stranger in the neighborhood where I was once an example of its identity."

Seriously though - neighborhoods are always changing. The reason why Ft Greene/ Clinton Hill is so much different today then the "good ol days" is because some of the old timers sold out, and made a killing doing so. Don't hate on the new people just because they are trying to make a better life for themselves.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 2:32 PM

And in the current economic climate, if the biggest problem your neighborhood has is trendy cafes/bars opening then consider yourself lucky.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 2:36 PM


"Don't hate on the new people just because they are trying to make a better life for themselves."

I'm not hating. I'm the one who said change is inevitable. I'm just saying that some people may not be comfortable with every aspect of change, and their feelings are every bit as legitimate as yours. If you're truly interested in making positive change lasting, that's one of the first things you should recognize and respect.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 2:38 PM

Agreed

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 2:41 PM

It's not just the old timers who hate being overrun by the lookie-loo's (mainly bridge-tunnelers from manhattan). I had friends in from the city (artists who'd lived in the dirty, dangerous soho of the "good old days" and saw that overrun and destroyed). And their first reaction to FT Greene was: "EW GROSSSSSS what's up with all the friggin yuppies? it's like the hamptons at their worst here."

BUT their second reaction was, "So, um, how much does a house around here go for?"

So thats your problem, old timers. Your neighb is just too darn cute; not even discerning old time New Yawkers can resist the charm, yuppie infestation notwithstanding.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 2:46 PM

Agreed.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 2:46 PM

NYC used to be cool. Now it sucks like every other place, but here you have to wait 2 hours to eat at Egg on the weekend. Which is one of the reasons it sucks cause you have nimrods waiting 2 hours on the weekend to eat BRUNCH, after a night of PBR's and nerd rock.

Posted by: billyboomer at May 4, 2009 2:48 PM

To guestposter:

-I never needed a bullet proof vest.

-My girls walked 5 blocks to and from Queen of All Saints and Bishop L. (circa 1987-1995) never raped, fondled or shot (at) Oldest girl goes to Hunter College walks home from train at night gets home about 11ish p.m. - no incidents. I've been walking thru FG Park to work 15 years - no problems with paranoia about the black men in the nabe


- And...never, never did I have a bedbug or rat problem~!

Posted by: The Who at May 4, 2009 3:02 PM

ramona, I hear ya... but you were there from the 1980s? I remember back in maybe 1980 or so I was sitting with an African American friend of mine in his home, he bought for 35k in the mid 1970s, and with us were some of his neighbors, elderly Black women probably in their 80s, even back then. I guess they're gone now..

They were talking about change in the nabe, one of them referred to a neighbor who was a 'newcomer', my friend says, hey, she's been here thirty years, and one of the other old ladies says yeah, but she doesn't go 'way back'.

That had me laughing... now my friend is in his eighties, and so it goes...

Posted by: denton at May 4, 2009 3:06 PM

Okay - so I understand where you guys are coming from (ramona, ENY)

So as a 20 something gentrifier, what can i do when I move into a neighborhood to not detract from the old charm.

Isn't it your responsibility to welcome me to the neighborhood and show me the ropes?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 3:24 PM

ENY, you've made some good points. Change can be good, but displacement in your own home feels awful. I am thankful for the handful of establishments in FG where I am seen as a "regular" and not as a tourist. I avoid the places that make me feel like an outsider or that are starting to feel like a tourist trap (think Habana Outpost and Madiba). I dodge the stollers and don't buy from the stoop sales/flea markets that think they are high priced consignment shops. Just this weekend, I went on to Clinton Ave (after visiting the Flea) and bought some fried chicken and ribs from the Coop who were having their own "stoop sale". It's a delicate balance between old and new. . .

Posted by: roofrights at May 4, 2009 3:32 PM

"So as a 20 something gentrifier, what can i do when I move into a neighborhood to not detract from the old charm. Isn't it your responsibility to welcome me to the neighborhood and show me the ropes?"


I'm not pretending to have all the answers. Yes, it is a good thing for longtime residents to extend a welcome to newcomers, but it works both ways - newcomers should also be open to friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) with longtime residents. It sounds corny, but it all begins with mutual respect and a willingness to try to understand each other. You don't have to be best of friends. But walking about as though you're too good to engage anyone other than your "kind" won't fly, either. A roofrights says, it's a delicate balance.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 3:40 PM

dipster how long have you lived in williamsburg? i would hardly call you a gentrifier. i think youre just the biproduct at this point, no? now if you moved to detroit you might be a gentrifier.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 4, 2009 3:56 PM

i totally agree - just playing devil's advocate of sorts.

I remember when I first moved to Crown Heights back in the day - i still had my manhattan mentality of walking really fast with my head down and not really paying attention to anyone. it wasn't until someone said "good morning" to me one morning that i slowed down my pace a little, took a look around and realized i wasn't in manhattan anymore. I was living in a community of people that knew each other. after that i got to know my neighbors alot better and loved my time there.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 3:57 PM

Williamsburg for 2 years (wasn't my first, or even 2nd choice of neighborhoods, but have been making the most of it) - before that crown heights for 1.5 years (my landlord sold his house and the new owner didnt renew the leases) before that i bounced around manhattan while in school (chinatown, les, ues)

I don't consider myself anything - i just want a nice place to live. but for arguements sake some might consider me a gentrifer.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 4:05 PM

dh, your 3:57 post is what I mean. I'm not big on talking to people on the street myself, and I'm a born Brooklynite! But I do make a point of saying "hi" to my neighbors since I've lived in Crown Heights. It goes a long way.

Posted by: East New York at May 4, 2009 4:09 PM

I make an effort to be outgoing- It makes my day to a get a big smile from one of my neighbors or a good morning from someone walking up the street. My feeling is, i moved here and into the community. I didn't come here to make it over into Brooklyn Heights. All neighborhoods have their own personalities and I like the way Crown heights is. not that i wouldn't love a great coffee shop close by but that's not what I love about living here. I think the biggest mistake any gentrifyer can make is to come into a neighborhood and act like they're only tolerating it until it "gets better." It's counterproductive and disrespectful to long time residents.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 4, 2009 4:09 PM

I used to think nobody in NYC could bitch so much about a great neighborhood than West Villagers, but this fucking thread is giving Villagers a run for their whiny.

For me, Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill is now a better place to live than the Village. I moved here from Barrow Street three years ago, and I love it.

First of all, gentrification has hardly turned FG/CH lily-white; it's STILL predominantly black, thanks to a black middle class that has owned here for ages, and has an enormous range of other races/cultures. Yeah, it's gotten a little whiter, but since when is diversity a bad thing? And I don't know what people are talking about when they say the hood is unfriendly—even before the Flea, which is great, I've felt a great warmth from people of every race and stripe. The park has an enormous community and sense of camaraderie. We have a teeny but decent farmers market. We have the stability and funny-looking students afforded by Pratt. It has comfy, unpretentious old restaurants, diners, and bars, and it has several great new ones (Kif, General Greene). Have you eaten dinner at No. 7? A pretty, friendly, neighborhoodsy restaurant that has genuinely ambitious food. We have great new stores all over the place like Choice Greene, while the Pioneer grocery store that used to be disgusting has been nicely cleaned up.

AND: We STILL do not have a Starbucks, and with their stock price the way it is, we don't seem likely to get one! Yay for us.

Actually, I could go on and on, but I don't feel the need to. I really don't care whether anybody agrees with me here or not. All I know is, there is nowhere I'd rather live.

Posted by: Rehab at May 4, 2009 4:26 PM

can you afford to eat at 7? or buy at choice green?a neighborhood is more than hip resturants.
mostly black? are you kidding me? i hardly ever see black faces unless the school kids are out, or you include the pjs- which much of our new friends have forgotten is also part of fg.again, i am nOT the only one saying this. gather up 20 vets and 9/10 will say the same thing.
diversity is when there's a mix.a real mix. when my black friends get"the look" from young white girls-i mean in their 20's., things aren't good.
as for showing newbies the ropes. the first thing that can be done is to not ask us to revolve around you. to understand how things work and try and work with it- to a reasonable degree. . it sounds as though you have the awareness to not allow that to happen. tell your friends.

when i and many of my friends moved here- in the mid 80's we treated the older- mostly black- people with courtesy(something that should be done across the board- age or race. we played with the kids. we engaged in conversations with our neighbors and store keepers- yes we had stores, yes not as many or i will admit as nice but it was ok. we smiled. we got involved in the community. we kept an eye for the children on the block- my child walked to school too . no problems. in fact it wasn't UNTIL more white people moved in that they stared getting hassled. i never got held up UNTIL more white people moved in.i think the main thing is that there's an air of superiority, self absobtion in this current generation. a sense that their needs come first. that their children need not defer to an older person coming down the street because basic manner are not progressive. don't see FG as a place to be but rather where you live. smile. talk. acknowledge.lighten up!

Posted by: ramona at May 4, 2009 5:16 PM

sadly this is a discussion with no end. this neighborhood has grown too fast in too many ways and while i'm not mad that the produce is better how sad is it that white folks had to move in before you could buy an apple.
the newbies have our view. the ogs, theirs. we will rarely agree. there ya go. oh. we have 2 starbucks-
oh. in case you haven't noticed- even the non pratt kids are funny looking LOL

Posted by: ramona at May 4, 2009 5:21 PM

it takes two to tango ramona.

if people don't feel welcome in a neighborhood, they will make their own. it sounds like you just expect people to move into "your" neighborhood and know how it is.

"the first thing that can be done is to not ask us to revolve around you."

it's amazing what a smile and a hello will do. if you aren't willing to do this then you sound like the bad neighbor who is doing nothing for their community.

"my child walked to school too . no problems. in fact it wasn't UNTIL more white people moved in that they stared getting hassled. i never got held up UNTIL more white people moved in.i think the main thing is that there's an air of superiority, self absobtion in this current generation."

Ummm WHAT? Sorry, maybe I missed the memo. Are these white people robbing young black youth? Your the only person who sounds self absorbed, with an air of superiority.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 4, 2009 5:45 PM

Stop beating around the bush liberals and poseurs. You all know that the problem with certain neighborhoods in NYC is the fact that there is random violent crime and sometimes not so random.

As long as there continues to be a laissez faire attitude towards the thug culture which is rampant in parts of the city, you will continue to suffer through the consequences of that policy.

Nostalgia towards a past which included "wilding in the park", two thousand plus murdered New Yorkers a year and race riots, is both stupid and naive.

Crime is deplorable in whatever form it takes and keep in mind that no person or group can really lay claim to a part of the city. Before Fort Greene became gentrified it was a black neighborhood for about 30 years, before that it was a white neighborhood for about 150 years and before that it was a native american neighborhood for about 1000 years.

Posted by: Legion at May 4, 2009 7:05 PM

And I thought you were starting to get it, dirty hipster.

The attitude of many white newcomers is, I just discovered such a fabulous place, I want to make it better [for me]. Never mind that the people who were there in the first place liked it just fine the way it was.

When I moved to Clinton Hill, I confess that being surrounded by black people made me uncomfortable. Not that they paid any particular attention to me (beyond saying good morning or good afternoon of course!), but I felt out of place and conspicuous even though I was not. It took me about 6 months to feel comfortable. Since there were not a whole lot of white people with whom to commiserate and conspire, I got used to it and that was that.

Many people over the years told me that as a white woman I was taking my life in my hands to get off the train at Clinton-Washington. But although there was certainly more street crime than in Park Slope, it was never that bad where I lived.

Historically, when subtantial numbers of black people move into a white neighborhood in this city and country, the white people just cut and run. Do you expect the black population here to do the same?

And, Legion, Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill were black neighborhoods for longer than 30 years, at least since the 1960s (when the whites ran away).

Posted by: rf at May 4, 2009 7:37 PM

On average it was when Black people moved into a white neighborhood, white people did cut and run. There were no welcome baskets and cards for them- they ran to the suburbs. gentrification is a different process altogether- Long time residents of Black and working class neighborhoods get forced out or pushed back.

There's been plenty of comments on brownstoner over the years to the effect that if you can't afford your neighborhood any longer, you should leave- that you have no rights to living in the place you grew up, worked in or were part of the community. The problem with that is it refuses to see the reality of neighborhoods and communities. People become attached to their homes and neighborhoods- these are healthy things for urban environments. a strong community is an asset for any neighborhood and ignoring the community only invites resentment and anger.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 4, 2009 7:57 PM

Are we sure the Rehab post isn't a joke by someone trying to caricature exactly what some of us don't like about the new neighborhood? It's this unreflectiveness--a complete unawareness of money and the history of the neighborhood--that galls me. Yes, I ate at No. 7 and it's super cute and friendly: but with $28 entrees (the short ribs), this kind of place is hardly within the reach of many of us who long made this neighborhood home. You are rich if you can do $28 entrees, so for those of us in the middle class, this kind of talk hardly creates a sense of "community." And I strongly suspect that the community is getting far less diverse financially, and simply more polarized--big difference. Its economic diversity, with a strong black cultural bent, was its strength as an urban neighborhood, and both seem to be waning (well, dead). This is probably my last year here after a dozen, since my landlords can get more money off of newer folks, so my rent is getting into unaffordable levels.

Talking about the changes here without looking at race and class what was lost for middle class people is far more naive than anything Rosie said.

Posted by: Natalia at May 4, 2009 8:41 PM

I am of the opinion that this has very little to do with race and everything to do with class. In the gentrification game, the only color that counts is the color of your money.

Posted by: Oleg at May 4, 2009 8:55 PM

Nelson George and Rosie Perez. A successful actress and an aspiring novelist. Are they not two of the people who have contributed to the demographic changes in the neighborhood? Or are they exempt from this because they are "people of color" who grew up in "the ghetto?"

This is New York City. Gentrification is a cold, hard fact of life. If you want to live in New York City, or any of its boroughs, you will be affected by gentrification. It is a wave continuously sweeping through this city. There is no escape...unless you leave.

Posted by: Dynomite Jimmy at May 4, 2009 9:48 PM

I eat at No. 7 with my black friends, where we are seated by a black host and waited on by an Italian waiter. We are not rich (I'm an unemployed artist). We just like good food! From a $2 hot dog in Central Park to a $150 meal at Balthazar. I can't afford to eat at nice restaurants every week, but I do splurge every once in a while, when I want to treat myself. What's the difference between spending $28 on an entree and $200 on a pair of customized high-top sneakers? We all have our indulgences. That's not the issue.

Posted by: Dynomite Jimmy at May 4, 2009 9:54 PM

Seriously, y'all are complaining about how you can't afford No. 7? If that's the most expensive restaurant in this neighborhood, we're still FAR FAR FAR away from being in the west village.

And what's awesome about No. 7 is that you can actually just eat an appetizer and they'll serve you just the same, smiling and helpful. Classy joint and THANK GOD we got those here, and not some trashy Planet Thai or some other crap dragged down from Williamsburg/LES.

No. 7 fits right in scale-wise. have you ever eaten at that gross Austrian place across from BAM that's been here for a million years? Do you know how pricey THAT Is? nobody complained about that being around (except me, everytime I had to meet someone there).

To all of you who think newbies (3 years here) are snotty and old timers are being disrespected, wow, I wish you could walk a day in my shoes. It's actually comical to what extent people on my block literally ignore me, point blank to my face, when I say hello. I just keep doing it because that's what I believe in. They're older, they've been here longer, and I owe them respect for that only. But man, do they make themselves look like total clowns. Hate and xenophobia looks so goddam stupid. I know it's fear and resentment and I symbolize change, but to let it dehumanize you like that . . . it's just sad.

ANyway, I'll keep saying hello and smiling. Hopefully the stick will one day come out of their butts.

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 11:05 PM

It does freak me out that EVERY SINGLE BABY I SEE ON THE STREET IN FT G OR CLINTON HILL IS WHITE. with maybe one or two exceptions, occasionally, and in that case it's usually a multi-racial kid, that's an entire generation that will grow up in this neighborhood.

That IS a huge demographic shift, and it is really sad. Are we doomed to turn Ft Greene into Park "vomit" Slope?

Posted by: iz at May 4, 2009 11:11 PM

RF - i understand perfectly.

The gentrification in Fort Greene isn't just "upper class" white people. I know just as many wealthy, successful non-whites that live in the FG/CH area as white people. So when Ramona singles out "white people, I take exception.
When a certain socio-economic group moves into a neighborhood, the cafes, restaurants, bars, etc will follow. It's a fact. Do people move to these places with this insidious plan to change and ruin what made the neighborhood great? I really don't think so. They just were looking for a nice place to live for a good price.
I understand and respect both sides of the argument. Unfortunately I didn't have an opportunity to live in FG back in the day, and it may not be as great as it was, but it's still a pretty freakin' amazing place today and it seems silly to be posting crap on a blog about how the amount of white babies on the streets.


Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 12:31 AM

"But man, do they make themselves look like total clowns. Hate and xenophobia looks so goddam stupid. I know it's fear and resentment and I symbolize change, but to let it dehumanize you like that . . . it's just sad."

Amen iz

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 12:33 AM

Oof, we made the mistake at eating at that horrific Viennese place across from BAM last week--worst excuse for a meal I've had in YEARS. The "big salad" was a series of glops that were each dispensed with scoops. The salmon was triple-overcooked. It felt like everything on the plate was made out of mayonnaise.

And yet, I'm kind of glad even that awful restaurant is here. The room has character. The beer is good, if you like German beer. Maybe if you order the right thing--weinershniztle? [spelling?] you'd be happy?

Whatever--I still think the people griping about this neighborhood are crazy. What, you'd rather live in Murray Hill? Harlem? UES? Yeesh. Knock yourself out.

Posted by: Rehab at May 5, 2009 1:50 AM

"It does freak me out that EVERY SINGLE BABY I SEE ON THE STREET IN FT G OR CLINTON HILL IS WHITE."

Can you imagine if someone posted this but replaced the word white with black? Why does it matter what color a baby is? Talk about racism.

Posted by: eh at May 5, 2009 9:04 AM

I heart Park "vomit" Slope - have lived there for seven years, plan to live there for god knows how many more - and thank the Supreme One every day that we don't have douchebags like Ramona and Rosie Perez waxing poetic about the 'good old days'.

And this is besides the point that NY is an immigrant city - and that includes Brooklyn, and the neighbs in it. Unless you want to live in one of those dusty rooms at the Brooklyn Museum of Art, get used to change. The city is *SHOCKER* dynamic!

Posted by: bupe at May 5, 2009 10:15 AM

It's not even "gentrification" and it's not even just here in Brooklyn. That's way oversimplifying it. It's in every city in the U.S., a migration from suburbs to city that's been taking place since the mid-90's that picked up speed in recent years. People concerned with the environment consider it a really good thing because it reduces suburban sprawl and cars on the roads in areas around densely populated cities. I get what upsets them about the changes but Rosie and Nelson did not take a very well-informed, larger perspective on this issue.

Posted by: traditionalmod at May 5, 2009 10:52 AM

Just heard another Nasal Rosie's promo for the show - is WNYC planning to make it a weekly thing? Yikes - need to schedule something for that hour so I don't come across it even by accident.

Posted by: bupe at May 5, 2009 11:13 AM

today coming out of choice, i opening the door for a white woman and her baby in a stroller, she didn't even say thank you....wonder why people complain about the change in the neighborhood. remember all most people want is a little respect and this rude woman couldn't even say thank you....

Posted by: witchdoctor at May 5, 2009 12:01 PM

I've lived in Brooklyn my whole life and some of the things I've seen in recent years have been very disturbing.

There was an incident a few years back with some newly arrived yuppie woman. She started making complaints to all the local websites, papers, law enforcement, etc. the moment she arrived in the neighborhood. Some things she actually complained about and wanted eliminated were the people that hung out by certain old school bars, black kids in white t-shirts, the Puerto Rican social clubs, the 99 cent store, the noise at the basketball court, etc, etc. She whined and bitched that gentrification wasn't happening fast enough for her arrival.

She immediately set up a "community watch" group. The first order of duty was to petition the closing of the (black/hispanic youth) basketball court in the park. This court has been used by schools and summer leagues for many years and she thought her opinion was holy enough to wipe it out. That didn't work. She then wrote into a local paper saying that her "dog walker noticed blood on a street near her home" and immediately wanted more police. She even admitted to video taping a Puerto Rican guy next to his broken down car all day long as he tried to fix his engine. She considered this suspicious behavior. She also admitted to the paper that she would drive around the neighborhood looking for suspicious youth (black/hispanic) and take notes on them. Meanwhile, she can't find time to even walk her own purebreed.

Now I thought she would be dismissed as a racist nut, but no, many of these pompous transplants in the neighbrohood sided with her and her little yuppilante group. It's truly amazing that these yuppies cry in orgasmic joy when they hear Obama speak, but continue on with their racist/classist objectives.

Posted by: William Poole at May 5, 2009 12:16 PM

I lived in FG in the last 90s and early 2000's. I understand the change is inevitable, yet as an African American it was wonderful to live in a place that was beautiful, relatively safe and filled with young progressive people of color. It was just great. I don't think white people can fully understand that as they have many, many places to go where they can find the same. Other than maybe some areas of PG county, there are no other places I know of that are predominately black, middle class and progressive. PG County might be wealthier but it is as classist or more so than its lily white counter part.

FG was exciting, you had younger professional black people mixing with older blacks who owned homes for years. You could walk to FG park on the weekends for the gay old skool house music party and head over to Blue Moon and listen to awful but very enthusiastic poets ;-). Summer concerts in Prospect park and events at BAM would bring out all the folks.

But as FG became safer and more entertaining it drew people of more means, and there is nothing landlords love more than seeing young white people with LARGER amounts of disposable income and guarantors. I understand that. Whites having access to larger amounts of money than black people have a very different perspective. The last 20 years in America is really the first time the black community has experienced large numbers of educated black people entering the work force and being accepted and allowed to compete in any fashion with their white counterparts...so this is the first generation to experience middle class ascendence in any real way.

Also for older black people who lived in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill the idea of paying $2000 a month rent would have been absurd.

Any older black American or Caribbean relative would scream if you told them the you were paying $2000 a month rent. You would be told to "Buy a house" right away. Many black people thought it ridiculous to pay $2,000-$3000 a month rent but many of those same older blacks do charge their white renters the very same price and they are happy to get it every month.

Yet many of my friends in Fort Green and Clinton Hill found that by the time they reached an age and career point to be able to afford to purchase a home...they were already priced out of the neighborhood they loved.

Now the vast majority of people I see in Fort Greene are white. I rarely see black people in large numbers. With $2M brownstones I would imagine so.

And yes I have witnessed young white new comers giving long time FG residents "side eye", I guess it is just a way of priviledge as I imagine many of them are not even aware they are doing it, as I guess it is their neighborhood now as they are in the majority.

So the older black former residents are expressing a sadness that they may have had to go and they did not want to but they were priced out...the difference is white residents have many choices of other similiar places to move where they would feel comfortable and young professional blacks did not.

Posted by: la negrita at May 5, 2009 12:37 PM

Rosie is a narcissistic douchebag liar. The Dutch were here before her fuching people and my people.

Posted by: PropJoe at May 5, 2009 2:04 PM

That's great. I have seen Rosie a few times around the Slope (although not recently). She always looked sexy as hell, even in sweatpants.

She is probably just like me in that she uses Park Slope as her home base, but is never here. This place as a neighborhood in the last ten years has become a virtual toilet of two-dimensional suburban-refugees acting out a Sesame Street fantasy minus Gordon and Olivia, and Luis and Maria (i.e., the Blacks and Puerto Ricans). Oh, and Mr. Roper's bodega was replaced by Mr. Nasalbeard the 28yr old gourmet organic grocer and Mr. Kim the overpriced Korean fruit and cat food salesman.

Posted by: Obamanut at May 5, 2009 2:26 PM

everyone should just quit the bitching and righteousness and STFU. this has nothing to do with black or white or gentrification or anything. it is called entropy.

Posted by: randolph at May 5, 2009 2:36 PM

Wow, after reading this, one can tell exactly who was born and raised in Brooklyn, and who was not. As a white teenager who hung out with white friends who were born and raised in FG (and yes there were very few of us) we did not let the crackhouses or Brothels on the block bother us. We smiled and made jokes with people who lived in those buildings, and no you did not ned a bullet proof vest to walk around there.

The real prob with the neighborhood started in 2004-5 when housing prices skyrocketed almost 80%! My problem really is that a lot of these new people do not smile or say hi. The crackheads/whores I grew up with made me feel safe, and were nicer to be around than a lot of these new residents. And I find that to be the case with most Brooklyn neighborhoods these days. These new "yuppies" or "hipsters" or whatever you call them, just for the most part are not nearly as nice and helpful as the people I know who were born and raised in these areas.

Posted by: Cobblehillbaby at May 5, 2009 6:48 PM

Thanks, La Negrita, for saying what's been on the mind of this white woman for almost a year: Privilege. Class, race, sex, or what-have-you, it's all around us, all the time. I wish people here would learn about privilege, particularly white privilege, to try to gain some understanding of why the alleged "betterment" of Fort Greene and Clinton Hill is viewed poorly by many "old-timers" of all colors. Sadly, most will not likely be open to learning about privilege since that is it's nature. I won't go through my growing list, but even the belittling of Ms. Perez and "reverse-racism" commentary in this thread indicate reactions rooted in white privilege. So ingrained is privilege in our culture, we don't see that it lies at the heart of so much big and small around here.

As a white FG resident for all of my 40 years, I also miss much from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s - people, solidarity, kindness, etc. Some changes have been good over the years, yet some are not (I like some of the restaurants, but hate their now garbage-filled basements and their burrowing rats - rats were less of a problem before the elimination of street containers in the name of beautification, folks). I've also experienced much of the described negative behavior from newer neighbors and visitors in lack of thank yous, weird looks, no hellos, rudeness to store clerks, and worse. However, we've been pretty lucky and continue to be thankful for our good neighbors, old and new.

The best thing that happened to my white family in 1968 when we moved in was that our neighbors accepted us - not "we accepted them". We worked together in the streets, in one another's homes, took care of one another's children, and formed true friendships that have endured. Their acceptance of my family transformed my life, my way of thinking about people and myself, and I am eternally grateful.

Posted by: sydney8 at May 5, 2009 10:29 PM

I came late to this discussion so have had the advantage (self-inflicted torture) of reading all that came before. What jumps out most is the seemingly willful ignorance of the newbies. There are comments like 'nothing but white babies', clearly demonstrating that the author has never been to Myrtle Ave let alone the Walt Whitman projects, unsurprising as so many seem to think that Ft Greene is the area bt BAM and De Kalb. Soon enough they'll probably want to rename the Navy Yards side of Myrtle to distinguish the 'real' Fort Greene form the dirty, trashy section which no-one in their right mind would like to be associated with.

There is also the usual attitude demonstrated by the privileged - get over it, it's inevitable, this is how the world works. Well FU too. The dismissal of the concerns of others does nor ameliorate these issues, and in fact often plays against you in the long run. From minor examples, such as the community my yuppie upstairs neighbors miss who think that our next-door neighbors are drug dealers as they have a nice car or that the Dominicans who repair cars on our street are slimy and crooked and have no contact with anyone who was here before them except in our building as they have no choice...by community I mean the 'drug dealing' next-door neighbor calling when my car was hit while parked so I could get out and catch the culprit (also they stay to get my back if anything goes down), to free car repair and the loan of a van from the 'slimy' Dominicans, to paid work from another neighbor who happens to be in the same business...etc etc..To the larger repercussion of fight back, and the reality that the bad attitude of the newbies will inevitably lead to the destruction of what they liked about the area in the first place.

One final observation about white Americans. When my wife was pregnant last year to our amazement we found that the natural camaraderie between pregnant women seemed to have a color barrier. Now not all white mothers-to-be were guilty but the majority actually looked away or kept their heads down when my pregnant wife would smile in conspiratorial sympathy, of course other women of color would beam back...and most of these folk probably voted for Obama.. because they're just not racist.


Posted by: BrotherFromAnotherPlanet at May 6, 2009 9:19 AM

Well after all this time that I have only been a spectator on the brownstoner I felt the need to finally add. This chat has sparked so many different points of reason and while it is good to respect everyones opinion some of the things I read is just plain crazy. I have ben a resident of bklyn all my life so as far as the neighboorhood I feel I seen it all. I truely understand Rosies point of view I feel it has gotten ridiculous a takeover has truely happened kind of out of nowere its like when you get that that roach with an egg and once that egg drops you can never get rid of them. I have a brownstown that has been in my family for years and I just watch what the neighboorhood has become,and it really sickens me to see how these people (and yeah you know what I mean) move in and try to take over but whats new they have been doing it all there lives its in there blood and character. There was a little fleamarket on that same block before the invaders came along and what happened they got pushed out by those people. Please who said we wanted the freakin habbana bull sh*t. Last note what if the old Putnam Downing FT Green pjs ST James Atlantic Terminals Washington and Classon ave would have moved to Bensonhurst do you think we would have been greeted with open arm. HELL NO you would have probley been murdered. Stay in your area and trust I will stay in mine.

Posted by: Broklin at May 8, 2009 9:25 AM

I think the take away message here is: "treat people like, um people" regardless.
As a new-ish resident in the neighborhood I have always made an effort to say hello, open doors, make chit chat, and generally treat my neighbors with the respect they deserve. On the flip-side, they have welcomed me and my family.
respect your neighbors, and they will respect you.
I know, a little sanctimonius... sorry

Posted by: jelly donut at May 8, 2009 2:29 PM

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