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May 1, 2009

Open House Picks

house Carroll Gardens
415 Sackett Street
Douglas Elliman
Sunday 12-2
$2,000,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Red Hook
173 Beard Street
Corcoran
Sunday 2-3:30
$1,179,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Ditmas Park
664 Westminster Road
Brooklyn Properties
Sunday 2-4
$995,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Carroll Gardens
591 Hicks Street
Vespa Properties
Sunday 2-3:30
$650,000
GMAP P*Shark

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Comments

The Westminster house is in Vic. Flatbush.

Posted by: Architerrorist at May 1, 2009 1:07 PM

I've only been here in Brooklyn just under 2 years but even I know that isn't Bed Stuy.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 1, 2009 1:07 PM

The "Bed-Stuy" house is in Ditmas Park/Midwood. (or whatever you want to call it -- Flatwood Park Square South)

Posted by: Back40 at May 1, 2009 1:08 PM

Interesting A&C style glass in that house, btw. Not the usual high Victorian stuff.

Posted by: Architerrorist at May 1, 2009 1:08 PM

Hicks Street place couldn't be cuter. Just how quickly would my children develop asthma living on the BQE?

Posted by: Ringo at May 1, 2009 1:12 PM

I love the Red Hook house - sigh! - oh well
I have to say though owner should expect an under million sale - I think Red hook is now priced under a million for these nicely done houses - safe to say

Hicks house- grrrrreat price - wow! - am thinking you could do a lot with the space no?

Posted by: gemini10 at May 1, 2009 1:14 PM

Wow, I knew Bed Stuy was huge, but I didn't know it extended into Ditmas Park. :)

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 1, 2009 1:14 PM

That Sackett St. house looks nice enough in the pictures, but the floor plan is demented. The ground floor rental has TWO toilets but only one bedroom and no kitchen (meaning the kitchen is in the living room). Paging Rob -- isn't this egregious? Also in the owner's triplex the bath opens directly into the kitchen. (Maybe they were preserving the original door frame from the pantry, but still.)

Posted by: mopar at May 1, 2009 1:14 PM

the sacket house is dreamy. if you read this site enough you become a little brainwashed day by day. I caught myself thinking: Oh, two million, that's not bad. I have to go for a walk in the real world. excuse me.

Posted by: mcKenzie at May 1, 2009 1:15 PM

Is it me or does the Sackett House feature A LOT of kiddie bedrooms - I think I counted like 3 kids rooms - strange to only feature kid bedrooms - no?

Posted by: gemini10 at May 1, 2009 1:17 PM

RE the house on the BQE, I used to live on President between Henry and Hicks, and I can say with great authority that you do not want to live there. It's noisy and filthy. A thick layer of black soot on the window sills every week. (And this was halfway down the block.) Can't open the windows in summer or winter because of the noise. Just dreadful.

Posted by: mopar at May 1, 2009 1:18 PM

aha Mopar
good to know!
thanks was all like WOW how cool would that be!?!?!?

Posted by: gemini10 at May 1, 2009 1:20 PM

Old school in Ditmas Park, couldn't be cuter.

Posted by: mopar at May 1, 2009 1:20 PM

Sackett is pretty but I wouldn't touch it due to bad school zone. Oh, and I think it's too expensive. Who has money to send all their kids to private school these days? I know, I know, there are still rich people out there, but do they really want to live on Sackett Street?

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 1:29 PM

Miss Muffett: what price would work for you on Sackett Street?

Posted by: basementalist at May 1, 2009 1:34 PM

I keep seeing really nice sized, nicely renovated houses in Red Hook. If only they weren't in Red Hook. Sigh.

Posted by: Smudge at May 1, 2009 1:36 PM

Westminster is reflecting the new ask in Vic Flatbush, but is it priced correctly for this marked? I'm betting they're not showing kitchen and baths for a reason... kaching!

Posted by: Architerrorist at May 1, 2009 1:37 PM

quote:

Also in the owner's triplex the bath opens directly into the kitchen.

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW who wants poo mist all over their dinnerware!?!?! GACK!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 1, 2009 1:47 PM

Basementalist - again, due to school zone, no price would realistically work since living in that house means signing up for at least $750K in private school tuition for 2 kids, and bear that I am, I know they won't discount this house by that much to compensate for that extra cost. That said, if it was in PS58, I'd probably be willing to pay at least 1.5 - it would depend on an actual viewing and whether it's truly move in (no work needed at all).

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 1:47 PM

I'm toying with a trip down to red hook to see that house this weekend. It's on a cobblestone street...like living in Nantucket with a view of Manhattan. But the commute to midtown: how? how long?

Posted by: I came I saw I rented at May 1, 2009 1:47 PM

Rob--

I've got an important tip for you. To avoid bathroom odors, light a match when you're done. Works beautifully.

Posted by: tinarina at May 1, 2009 1:55 PM

Ms. Muffet: I thought the public schools were good in carroll gardens. Why do you say it is a bad school zone?

Posted by: mcKenzie at May 1, 2009 1:57 PM

McKenzie - depends *where* in Carroll Gardens. PS58 indeed is very good. Sackett is in PS32, which evidently specializes in special needs kids, and may be good at that (I don't know enough about their particular approach). But it is definitely not the right school for me, and from the research I've done, has mixed parent reviews. And, as is clear from Page 1 of New York Times today, parents absolutely cannot expect to get variances out of zone anymore, so buying a home (if you have young kids) in a zone where you don't like the school is a very bad idea unless you are prepared to pay for private school, which is not even an option for me. And increasingly, is not an option for many other New Yorkers.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 2:08 PM

Miss Muffett: This must be the first time i agreed with you. PS 58 is not a good school but a great one. PS58 is the only K to 5th grade public school in NYC offering a French dual language program. Combine that with the principal who is wonderful and you now see why PS 58 has become more desired than PS 29.

Posted by: sebb at May 1, 2009 2:19 PM

I came I saw - The commute to midtown can be excruciating (B61 to Boro Hall to any train: 1 hr) or sublime (bike to Brooklyn Heights, take the A: 30-35min). My husband does the latter every day, or I drop him at the train when I take the kids to school.

The real danger of living in Red Hook is that you never want to leave. I live and work here, and it's perfect.

Posted by: tina24hour at May 1, 2009 2:24 PM

IcamIsaw: I commute from Red Hook every morning on the b61. A little further down the line from that house, but I am at Union Sq in 20-25 minutes. I walk to the 4 and 5, from Court St, though, rather than sit on my butt and get the F or the A. A friend of mine calls that end of Red Hook Cape Cod.

Posted by: mshook at May 1, 2009 2:27 PM

Am glad someone from Red Hook is here to dispel some of the uncomfortability people tend to have about living/communting there
thanks mshook

Posted by: gemini10 at May 1, 2009 2:29 PM

"PS58 is the only K to 5th grade public school in NYC offering a French dual language program." Whoa. Is it too late for me to go?

Rob, guess what they have in the houses in Ocean Hill? A toilet (toilet only, no sink or anything else) that is technically in or next to the kitchen but it opens off the porch. It's like an old outhouse that has gotten halfway to inside the house, but not quite inside. I think it is so cool. I guess I saw a few of them growing up in California. Makes me feel all fuzzy.

Posted by: mopar at May 1, 2009 2:30 PM

Miss Muffett: (1) Thanks for your answer.

(2) Don't get your estimate of $750k in private school tuition for 2 kids. For 6 years of school (K thru 5) that works out to $62,500 per year per child. Keep in mind that once you're in middle school, the elementary school zone does not determine what schools you can go to. (Whereas if the argument is all public middle & high school is bad, then that applies to any house, anywhere.)

At say $25K a year tuition, then 25 x 2 kids x 6 years = $300k, no? (Not chump change still, I know!)

Posted by: basementalist at May 1, 2009 2:31 PM

Ms muffett, thanks for the info. It seems odd to make parents send their kids to a school that specializes in special needs if their kids do not have special needs(?).
Where did you find a map of the different school catchment areas? I could only find one of the school districts which are large areas and contain many schools.

Posted by: mcKenzie at May 1, 2009 2:33 PM

My thing to get over was negotiating a change (rather than one train or bus). But now I am really happy to have many possible ways home and to work - lots of different trains to downtown BK, wait for the bus, or ride the F and walk home from Carroll St. Living in Carroll Gardens and being dependent on the F was WAY worse.

Posted by: mshook at May 1, 2009 2:36 PM

mcKenzie: http://maps.nycboe.net/index.asp. but you'd really have to call the school to get up-to-date info on whether you're in the catchment.

sebb: i think a lot of people would disagree with you, but your boosterism is noted.

Posted by: i disagree at May 1, 2009 2:38 PM

Woops, basementalist, thanks for catching my error - indeed, I was calculating tuition for 12 years. That said, a lot of people I know find it hard to leave private school in 6th grade, even if zone is no longer an option. It's just a very sensitive time (early adolescence) to remove a kid from cocoon of private school to tougher public school environment. And then, while there are great public high schools, maybe if you've already done K-8 private, it could be harder to switch to public in high school too. But, for sure, we're talking minimum 6 years with 2 kids, and the tuition is closer to 30K, so that right there is $360K, and if you add middle school, another 180K. Not to mention all the ethical reasons I would prefer public school. Private is just not an option for us right now, period.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 2:46 PM

The issues with PS 29 have nothing to do with their special ed program, which is very well regarded. It's just that the rest of the school does not have a great rep. It goes back to the fact that parts of the projects are zoned for that school, unlike PS 58.
Call it racism, classism or realism, depending on your point of view.

Posted by: oe at May 1, 2009 2:51 PM

Also, you can get zone maps on insideschools.org - a great resource with info on NYC public schools, though there are others so get a balanced picture, it's helpful to check out several sources (including parents you know).

And it's not that you *have* to be special ed to go to PS32 - it's just that special ed is their strength. I've heard less than great things from parents of general ed kids, and I'm afraid I would not feel comfortable going there. But you know, these decisions are all intensely person (as are neighborhood decisions). Some families love a school, and another family may feel very differently about the very same school. You have to do what's right for you and your kid.

But for me, PS32 makes Sackett a non-starter.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 2:54 PM

oe - PS29 is a top school in Cobble Hill. PS32 is the one under discussion here. Have you actually researched this?

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 2:58 PM

Lots of typos today - am multi-tasking too much since I'm working from home and trying to get stuff done while my kid naps! Hope my posts make sense nonetheless...

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 3:01 PM

You know, there are plenty of people out here who don't have kids. And aren't gonna have them. So the whole school district thing is a non-issue.

Posted by: Kris at May 1, 2009 3:03 PM

Of course Kris. And I'm sure some of them do indeed want a 4 story house with a 5 BR triplex. That said, I also assume that a key demographic for houses this size are buyers with children.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 3:05 PM

True, Kris, but the quality of local schools is a big factor in house prices almost everywhere, not just Brooklyn. Appropriate to a real estate discussion whether you have guttersnipes or not.

Posted by: Architerrorist at May 1, 2009 3:06 PM

sorry meant 32, not 28... yes the school on Hoyt and Union is what I was talking about

Posted by: oe at May 1, 2009 3:08 PM

quote:
Rob, guess what they have in the houses in Ocean Hill? A toilet (toilet only, no sink or anything else) that is technically in or next to the kitchen but it opens off the porch. It's like an old outhouse that has gotten halfway to inside the house, but not quite inside. I think it is so cool. I guess I saw a few of them growing up in California. Makes me feel all fuzzy.

ha! awesome!

my first apt on the LES had the tub (no shower) in the kitchen and a toilet room in the kitchen. i wasnt concerned about the poo mist back then because i didnt bring any food in my apt and the kitchen wasnt used (in fact i kept my shoes in the fridge and my journals in the oven!) since i didnt have any closets.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 1, 2009 3:17 PM

So snarky, Miss Muffet.... The Sackett Street house in question is a two-family totaling 3100 square feet. That leaves maybe 2325 SF for the owners triplex - not really too huge (in my opinion) for a couple without kids. Personally, I'd love to have that kind of space!

Of course I realize that school districts greatly influence the price. And I am not even commenting on the price of this particular house. All I am saying is that a house is not worthless just because it doesn't work for you and your needs.

Posted by: Kris at May 1, 2009 3:23 PM

Who said it was worthless? More power to whoever wants to pay a lot for this house. It just won't be me, and isn't this a blog to air one's opinions? And I'm not into snark at all, so did not mean to offend.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 3:32 PM

Re: special ed schools -- The Children's School on 3rd Avenue is a nonzoned lottery school for non-special ed kids, and *highly* competitive for many reasons that have precisely to do with its inclusion program... a higher teacher to student ratio, a lot of resources relative to other public schools, etc. They get a huge amount of applicants for few general-ed spaces from families in the neighborhoods around it. That said, I know nothing about PS 29 in particular, but agree that no reason special ed program itself would be a strike against.

Posted by: basementalist at May 1, 2009 3:33 PM

fyi to folks interested in dual language programs. there is one now a spanish program going into it's second year at PS84 which is a magnet school with a very cooperative principal.

Posted by: wine lover at May 1, 2009 3:39 PM

Yes, I know the Childrens School - my kids went to inclusion preschool so I think very highly of the model and have done a fair amount of research into it. But that is just one of many factors that make up criteria by which to judge a school - it's complex.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 3:42 PM

> "And I'm not into snark at all, so did not mean to offend."

She loves me not... sniff...

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 1, 2009 3:48 PM

When did snark get so popular anyway? Anyone read David Denby's book about it (I confess I didn't)? I'm all for humor, but not the mean-spirited part of it (no offense snark slope - you don't seem truly snarky anyway).

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 1, 2009 3:54 PM

i disagree: disagree with whatttttt?

Posted by: sebb at May 1, 2009 4:00 PM

that 58 has become more desired than 29. certainly, it's seen as good but it's not as uniformly respected as 29. of course, this doesn't mean that 58 isn't actually as good as or better than 29 - i'm just talking about reputations.

Posted by: i disagree at May 1, 2009 4:46 PM

David Denby is earnest to a fault, so consider the source.

Posted by: mopar at May 1, 2009 5:04 PM

CAUTION: The Red Hook House had a constant vibration during the day in 2002 when it was last for sale. I wrote a long post about it 1.5 hours ago, but my post isn't showing up. Interesting story about the factory next door and a questionable broker and some craptacularly dishonest sellers. Don't know why my post from over an hour ago isn't showing up. Hmmmm.

Posted by: MaxOthermoxx at May 1, 2009 5:04 PM

http://www.jewcy.com/post/epic_fail_david_denbys_snark

"David Denby has the worst job on earth. As the New Yorker’s other film critic, Denby has the misfortune of competing with the suffocatingly funny Anthony Lane, a stylist and wit who once likened R2-D2 and C-3PO to 'a beeping trash can and a gay, gold-plated Jeeves' and wrote that Revenge of the Sith was superior to its predecessors 'only in the same way that dying from natural causes is preferable to crucifixion.' Lane is a tough act to follow. Denby must work with a sneeze guard over his laptop to keep the flop sweat from shorting it out."

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 1, 2009 5:29 PM

sebb, I'm a fan of PS 58, but you sound like a broker (are you?) Why does everything have to be exaggerated? There are many very good aspects to PS 58 and when a school is good, there's no need to exaggerate -- in my opinion, it just turns people off. First, PS 58 is NOT the only school to have a French dual language program in all of NYC -- there are a few others. I do believe it is currently the only one in Brooklyn. Also, only 24 English-speaking kids can take the dual language program, with acceptance via lottery, so it's no guarantee. Finally, PS 58 is arguably as beloved as PS 29 these days, but there's no need to say it's "more desired" in general. By the way PS 58 also has an amazing strings and science program. There's alot to like about the school and no need to exaggerate it's best parts. But remember, a mere 6 years ago most kids zoned for that school tried to get variances for PS 29 -- it made a swift change in a few years from a so-so to a much better school. It's definitely possible for PS 32 to make a similar turnaround if the DOE decides to make an effort to do so and a big group of parents are committed to improving it. I wouldn't be surprised if that did happen, given the changing demographics of that neighborhood. Still, getting back to subject at hand, I agree that current school zoning is relevant and this house would be far more likely to get 1.5 million + if it was a few blocks west.

Posted by: CGfan at May 1, 2009 5:42 PM

CGfan : I am 100% sure PS 58 is the only dual language french program for a public elementary school in in NYC. Positive . You are right about the science and strings program.
Why would you say i am a broker because i say a school is top notch. Wrong.

Posted by: sebb at May 1, 2009 6:37 PM

I have a child going into K next year and looked at the children's school. Interesting thing about that lottery is that the district covers Park Slope, Gowanus, Red Hook and Sunset Park...maybe Windsor Terrace too, can't remember if that's our district. They can't get anyone to apply to the school from Sunset Park and Red Hook, so they divided the zone in half, and have one lottery for the North Side of the zone, which gazillions apply to, and then a separate one with the same number of slots (this is all for the gen. ed. kids, not special needs) for Red Hook and Sunset Park. Apply from those areas and your chances improve considerably. School zones with poor scores (like Red Hook) have a lot of incentive opportunities for people to apply out of the zoned school. Commuting as a variable is a constant for a neighborhood like Red Hook - schools and jobs.

Posted by: I came I saw I rented at May 1, 2009 7:03 PM

sebb, what about PS 84 in Manhattan? Don't they offer a French dual language program also? My understanding is that 1 or 2 others started the same time as PS 58's. I just don't think it's necessary to say a school is "top notch" or oversell it ("more desirable than PS 29") because it will only leave disappointed parents whose expectations aren't met. A good school can stand on its own merits, honestly. We agree on your point, that PS 58 is a good school, in any case.

Posted by: CGfan at May 1, 2009 10:54 PM

sebb,

I'm 100% sure that
PS84 has french (and spanish) dual language pk-5,
PS125 has dual language french in K (like 58),
PS73 has dual language french in K ("), and
PS151's french english program begins this fall for K and 1st.

And the efny has started after school french programs in 9 schools.

Posted by: Ringo at May 1, 2009 11:03 PM

SNARK ALERT!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/realestate/03cov.html?hpw

"Still, many brokers say courting attention online is tantamount to parading a fatted calf among jackals."

...growls, bears teeth...

Posted by: lechacal at May 2, 2009 8:36 AM

Snark?

Jackals?

They've obviously been reading Brownstoner.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 2, 2009 1:28 PM

I live in area and Sackett St is on a nice wide block close to really nice section of Smith St restaurants. PS32 happens to have an excellent PreK program and many kids on that block attend Brooklyn New School, Children's School and PS58. District 15 also has excellent public middle school options. Sackett pics look nice (owner must have a zillion kids) and price looks good next to neighboring house on corner of sackett and hoyt that corcoran has listed at 2.85 mln.

Posted by: CGDad at May 2, 2009 7:04 PM

CG Dad - have you not been reading the papers? People can barely get into their zoned schools, much less get a variance or rely on lotteries (which you need to enter for Children's School and Brooklyn New School - most people I know did NOT get in via lottery so it's hardly as easy as you may think - maybe in the old days, but things have changed hugely). Maybe 32 will get better, but if not, anyone who buys the Sackett house and needs to send their kids to a good public school may be SOL.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at May 2, 2009 9:22 PM

Muffett,

It's not as bad as all that. I have kids in this zone; middle school options are among the best in the city, and there are lots of good public elementary school options for this area -- charter schools, gifted & talented programs, lottery schools, variances, and yes, PS32 has a really good PreK and many parents staying on for K. There are a multitude of opportunities, and families fortunate enough to be able to afford beautiful townhomes in this area of Brooklyn are probably also smart enough and resourceful enough to explore and find good options to get a good public education (if they are not going the private route.) As for this house, it looks move-in ready and it is a great tree-lined block -- Smith St by Sackett is a stretch with some of the best restaurants and shops in the 'hood. Neighborhood is great, and they aren't making any more land and they aren't making any more 19th century townhomes. NY Times 'Residential Sales Around the Region' today shows a CG house on 2nd Pl that is only 16' wide that just sold for $2 mln, and pictures of that in my opinion don't look as nice as this Sackett St house which is 20' wide and has central a/c. Best of the bunch on the open house list imho and price is good, unlike a lot of listings out there.

Posted by: CGDad at May 3, 2009 3:02 AM

Snark, the article totally cracked me up. All the quoted snarky comments are from Brownstoner. I'm sure you'll recognize them.

Posted by: mopar at May 3, 2009 11:02 AM

CGDad, if the main component of a home's worth is still location, I'm not sure it's fair to compare a house on 2nd Place with the house on Sackett. Yes, the 2nd Place house is narrower, but the location is still better, not just because it's on one of the few place blocks with front gardens, but because it's also zoned for 58 instead of 32. Although you are correct that it's certainly possible that someone could luck into one of the charter schools, most buyers still prefer the certainty of knowing they can attend their local zoned school (and Miss Muffett, despite the DOE's threats to the contrary, I believe it will be a long time before any zoned kid is turned away from a school like 58, 29 or 321 -- it's just politically impossible). For many years, homes in the PS 29 and 321 zone were more expensive than homes in less desirable school zones, and there's no reason for that to change. PS 32 is still not going to be the choice of most people willing to spend $2 million on a home, and while that may change in the future, prices should reflect the current reality, not some future possibility. So I don't think $2 million for a townhouse on that block is any great bargain at all. Sadly, PS 32 would probably improve much faster if those homes were priced for middle class families with some incentive to work to make sure 32 became a good school quickly, which is what happened in the other neighborhoods, where the schools got better BEFORE the house prices got high sky.

Posted by: CGfan at May 3, 2009 11:14 AM

Size matters! Reason to compare 2nd St and Sackett is in my book it's about a wash -- $2 mln for a puny 16' wide in more established elementary school district should be comparable in price to a nice 20' wide in less established zone. Tradeoff between school district and size and you come out close to even. My point is that the zoned elementary school is NOT your kid's only option. Parents do have choices, and the middle schools are good.

Posted by: CGDad at May 3, 2009 11:33 AM

Well, it only takes one buyer, but in my opinion, homes in the PS 32 zone just aren't worth a $2 million dollar price tag at this time. And I don't believe this house will sell for that much as a result. But, who knows, you may be right -- we'll keep watch on what this eventually sells for. I agree with you that the zoned elementary school is not your kid's only option, but that's been the case for years in District 15. Despite this fact, homes in 321 and 29 always got a higher price. My point was that this house is priced as high as homes in better school zones and I don't think it's worth the price.

Posted by: CGfan at May 3, 2009 11:59 AM

"Snark?
Jackals?
They've obviously been reading Brownstoner.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 2, 2009 1:28 PM"

Since I mentioned "Snark Attack" a couple of weeks ago in reference to a jab SnarkSlope took at Rob, I would love to think they lifted that from here!

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 4, 2009 8:29 AM

If you're really planning on sending your kids to public school from pre-K through 12th grade, you should consider the big picture. There are some great elementary schools in Brooklyn; however, the middle school and high school options (or at least transportation to the better MS and HS options) are not so great.

If you're in it for the long haul - you should be looking in Victorian Flatbush. Very good elementary school options, including gifted programs, excellent access to top middle schools (Bay Academy, Hudde, Mark Twain - well not bad for Mark Twain which is impossible, generally). You are also well placed for Midwood HS (check out their Westinghouse scholars), Morrow, and the express bus which lets off right near Stuyvestant for the lucky winners...

MS 51 in district 15 is very good, but not all children from 321 will be accepted... There are few other options, other than Math and Science, but I think the location is horrible and the HS in the building is not ideal. Also, in North Brooklyn you are so far from the best Brooklyn MS and HS choices, you might as well be zoned for Manhattan (which you're not).

Posted by: Architerrorist at May 4, 2009 10:04 AM