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May 5, 2009

Nostrand Ave: Many Hair Salons, No Cafés

Back in 2007, the New York Sun ran an article with the title Retailers So Far Fail To Follow Homebuyers to North Crown Heights. From the article:

While homebuyers see the area's potential, new businesses are proving harder to attract. Along Nostrand, for example, many stores have old facades and rundown signs. Graffiti covers the security gates over the storefronts. While heavy on nail and hair salons and barbershops, the commercial strip lacks basic services such as a bank branch. "People are buying nice homes and spending good money and there are no services," a project coordinator for the North Crown Heights Merchants Association, who is a sales agent with Prudential Douglas Elliman Real Estate, Barbara Brown-Allen, said. "They don't know the spending power that's here."

A year and a half later, the blog Nostrand Park decided to try to put some numbers to that assertion by doing a store-by-store analysis of the retail options on Nostrand Avenue between Eastern Parkway and Atlantic Avenue. The five most represented categories were Hair/Braiding Salons (13%), Variety Shops (11%), Caribbean Take-Out (10%), Bodegas/Delis (8%) and Nail Salons (5%). On the flip side, the survey found that there was not a single dine-in restaurant, café, book store or art store on the entire strip.
Nostrand Avenue North Retail Survey [Nostrand Park]
Photo by filmlynx

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Comments

quote:

"People are buying nice homes and spending good money and there are no services,"

im sorry, but one big ALOL on them.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 10:11 AM

quote:

and this is the most barf-worthy comment i have EVER heard.

"They don't know the spending power that's here."

what the hell is that even supposed to mean? that people who lived there before didnt have money to spend? oh wow so someone now can come in who bought a 2 million dollar home and has money to spend but uhhhh they dont know where to spend their disposable income? hello, there's a train stop a few corners away that takes you to manhattan. pooping out a tiny violin right now.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 10:13 AM

Note - there was a typo in the original post. Hair/braidings salons comprise 13% of the strip.

Posted by: Wont UB My Nabor at May 5, 2009 10:21 AM

good thing. people are wellgroomed and don't spend their money getting tanked and pretending that is sophistication.
All those cafes and restaurants bring late night noise, dirty streets from spilled garbage and rats.

Posted by: Petebklyn at May 5, 2009 10:22 AM

and this is the most barf-worthy comment i have EVER heard.

"They don't know the spending power that's here."

Wow Rob! You've been on a roll!

This proves Brownstoner stays in his house and write shit up!!!! Do you know how many restaurants are on Nostrand Ave???? There are a yon of places to eat (Yes you can sit down)!!!!!

Montrose Morris where yer at!!!!!! This is the time The What really needs your help! Give them hell!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 5, 2009 10:27 AM

My prediction is that this topic will either illicit vast ennui from Brownstoner land, or will spill buckets of cyber ink in a classic gentrification war.

My take on it, as someone who lives here: One of my friends who actually has lived here her entire life, and she is now retired, remembers Nostrand Ave in the 1950's and 60's. Like I'm sure NOP can relate, Nostrand was a first class retail strip, with everything from the butcher, the baker, banking, shoe and dress shops, drug stores,candy store and a furrier. She told me her parents rarely shopped anywhere else, everything was here.

When the city, for all intents and purposes, abandoned central Brooklyn, most of these merchants followed the rest of the white flight, and left the stores to absentee landlords who rented to whoever could pay the rent. Those renters and their businesses catered to the population that moved in, or remained in CH.

Bodegas, hair and nail salons fill a need. They are relatively cheap businesses, and don't need a lot of fixtures or fanciness. You don't need a marketing degree to run them, and in the case of bodegas or nail salons, family members can provide cheap labor. Most hair places are either owner operated or rent booths to other stylists. A good stylist makes money for her/himself, and pays the owner rent and a percentage of gross. Hair care has been a successful business for generations of Caribbean and African American women. We may not have much, but we will pay to get our hair done. We've done so since Madame CJ Walker made herself the first black Victorian millionaire. Whether that is cool or not is not the point, it just is. The prevailing philosophy being that we may not have much, but we at least look good. The majority of the rest of the businesses served the population that was and still is here - Caribbean food, etc.

During this time, of course, many people had to go outside the community for many goods and services. This is not news. We needed cafes, book stores, better groceries, banking, etc in the 70's and we still need them. The good thing about this new gentrification is that businesses may finally take a chance on us, instead of being afraid. The problem is that Nostrand Ave is almost totally owned by about 3 landlords, who see little incentive to change the status quo, for whatever their reasons.

I must end this epic by noting that the Nostrand Park survey leaves out a lot of businesses that have been mainstays of the neighborhood. Barbara's Flowers, for example has been a successful business in that same location at Bergen and Nostrand for 40 years. There are insurance companies, a copy place, pharmacies, at least two successful hardware stores, and other mainstream and necessary businesses that have been there for years. These people go unnoticed by the new wave of residents, which is a shame, as they are a valuable part of both the resiliency of the past, and sage business elders for the future. Of course we need banks, restaurants, etc, and I welcome and look forward to sitting in a Nostrand Ave cafe and watching the world go by, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 10:52 AM

I don't live in the neighborhood but have walked and driven round Nostrand a fair bit, and it is always busy. So I assume many people find the services they need there.
Certainly Caribbean takeout and bodegas sound like the kind of services I would use a lot (certainly more than say, skateboard and dry goods shops). Also isn't there a bank on the corner of Nostrand and Eastern Parkway?

Posted by: etson at May 5, 2009 10:59 AM

quote:

i LOVE You MM and you know that but i have issues with this...

"The prevailing philosophy being that we may not have much, but we at least look good." and i think that might be one of the biggest problems with african-american culture.

(i really really really hope i didnt say something bad by saying that tho).

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 11:01 AM

I'm sure Montrose will be pontificating shortly, if she hasn't done so already.

First of all, those percentages add up to 46%- what's the other 54%?

Secondly- while Nostrand isn't crawling with trendy bars and chi chi cafes, I think there are several reasons for this. this is a working class neighborhood, for the most part. People cook and eat at home (and if I can judge by the wonderful smells emanating from their apartments, they are really good cooks.) They have other interests than sipping wine at a fancy marble table and reading the menu (in french).

The food shops along Nostrand offer good, inexpensive ethnic foods. Most of the storefronts are small and the kitchens take up most of the space. You work with what you have. But you don't have to be fancy or expensive to be good. Sure, I'd love a nifty little coffee shop (so would everyone else I know in this neighborhood) but we do not want to see Nostrand Ave. become Smith St. that said, new places are opening up.

The survey didn't make note of the hardware stores, the florist, the print shops, or the vegetable stands)

Having spent many a happy hour in the many variety stores I can truthfully say its a treasure hunt. You never know what you'll find, and a dollar package of 15 bic pens writes just as well as a 3.99 package from Staples.

Nostrand Ave. provides what neighborhood residents need- there's not much disposable income so you won't find a dress shop with a 200$ denim skirt. That doesn't mean you won't find clothes- you can. they may not be Calvin Klein, but who cares? If you love interesting, ethnic or even plain funky, you can find it.

A comment about the hair and nail shops. Women in this neighborhood are very appearance conscious. Most of them take great care of themselves - they take great care of themselves and they have a different vision of beauty. They'd hoot at the idea of paying some hairdresser $500 for a wash and cut- and the skill it takes to do some of the complex and fascinating hairstyles I see, no trendy hairstylist on the UES would ever attempt. There's a gret deal of skill involved.

Don't forget- the people in neighborhoods like CHN are not into conspicuous consumption. They aren't worried about their interior designer finding the next new, hot artifact. The hair and nail salons are indicative of the real pride they take in themselves and, yes, their heritage.

so in actuality the question isn't why haven't the retailer followed the "new people" into CHN. Retailers are already here- and they cater to their clientele. You can either jump in and swim with the fishes- and enjoy it too!- or sit in the house and bewail the fact that starbucks is not yet, and may never be, here. And I'm good with that.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 11:01 AM

and to add, my grandmother who raised me, had no money but she too (white) always had to have her hair done every week... so i kinda take back what i said about it being about african-american culture. it's obviously something else, but it's still weird to me. there's nothing wrong with a big mess of hair if you can barely afford to eat, no?

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 11:02 AM

Etson- yes there is and if you go inside (after admiring the architecture of the exterior) you will find a jawdropping temple to lucre that rivals some of the other Temples of Money like the Chase Bank on Montague St.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 11:04 AM

" The good thing about this new gentrification is that businesses may finally take a chance on us, instead of being afraid. "

All hope is out the window.

Nostrand Ave serves the community, PERIOD! If want the "Amenities" then move to a neighborhood that has them...

The What (Nice try Brownstoner!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 5, 2009 11:06 AM

rob- of course as a white woman I can't tell you much about the technical differences between white and ethnic hair but I've lived in Black Neighborhoods, and am close friends with enough Black women to have learned that hair care is a necessity, not a luxury. And many women are very skilled in caring for hair so not every woman goes to or needs a hair salon.There's often someone in the family who can help.

And think about it, rob. Your grandmother- like many of her generation- was raised to take pride in their appearance, and pride in themselves. If you want to see what life is like for people who have stopped caring, look at some of the street people. Studies have shown that the mentally ill respond well when they have been taken to hairdressers, and given new clothing. It really plays into some issues of the soul, I believe. (And I can't wait to hear the comments :-)

But yes- food first.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 11:14 AM

Rob, black women and their hair bring up class/race/historical discussions too complex to go into here. Women of all races, creeds and colors get their hair done, and hair salons are in every neighborhood in the city. The upscale ones may not be quite as in your face, or are more opulent, that's all. African hair care has never been taught in mainstream cosmetology school, and black women from the Spanish and English Caribbean, to African braiders and African American girls whose mothers pressed their hair with a hot comb on the stove, have mastered the art, and have been able to make a living and put food on the table. Like any business, if a salon can't pay the rent, they have to relocate or close. These places are then obviously filling a need in the community at large.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 11:16 AM

If any one is considering to start a retail business, Crown Heights North has to be among the short list of hoods for consideration. Not talking about some high end retail, etc. Rather adding some additional variety / choices into the mix to serve the existing community. How about a decent chinese restaurant (not the generic take out operations), bakery shop with some diff goods, grocery store with different inventory, diner......

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 11:29 AM

Montrose-I'd Like to know what that building in the picture for this story used to be...

Posted by: wasder at May 5, 2009 11:30 AM

Some of the best hair stylists in NYC started on Nostrand Avenue. I know people that come from Long Island and Queens to Nostrand Avenue to get their hair done. BTW, there are also two banks on Nostrand and Empire.

Posted by: Chosen at May 5, 2009 11:38 AM

M4L- i think the major problem is actually the 3 landlords who own most of the real estate along Nostrand. 2 places opened on nostrand and are struggling- Opel, and Ife, which seems to be a club and only open from Thurday night to Sunday. Opel is trying to be a real restaurant but isn't open enough and I'm actually not usre if it is still open at all.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 11:39 AM

To say that the strip reflects the demands of the residents is not necessarily true. Similar to Montrose's account of the Nostrand of yore, one elderly Caribbean woman who I have spoken with on numerous occasions always recounts the hat shops and other "fine shopping" establishments that used to be on Nostrand Avenue. She laments what, to her, Nostrand Avenue has become. She's lived in Crown Heights for well over thirty years.

There was even another article a while back on the subject which I had posted about on another board: http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/ny_local/2001/01/09/2001-01-09_turning_back_the_clock_crown.html

Also, the NP post does note the "unique stores" on Nostrand such as the flower shop and office supply store. Plus, there is an excel sheet that details the other stores types, such as the hardware stores, financial services shops, etc. The full 100% is accounted for on the sheet.

Posted by: Wont UB My Nabor at May 5, 2009 11:41 AM

There's a Banco Popular on the corner of Nostrand and EP, and a Wamu not too far away on EP and Bedford/classon

I used to live off Nostrand and could always find what I needed. There was a carribean store off St John's that had decent produce, the bodegas were well stocked with the essentials (at a decent price) and there was a grocery store that was a few blocks up from me (i think on sterling) but had pretty crappy produce.

Now I'm not gonna lie, I enjoy a sit down dinner every once and a while (well, alot now), which was lacking from Nostrand when I first moved there. Tavern on Nostrand (president st) opened up about a year after i moved to the neighborhood, and seemed like a good addition as it seemed to always be filled with a cross section representative of the neighborhood.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 11:46 AM

quote:

Don't forget- the people in neighborhoods like CHN are not into conspicuous consumption.

im sorry, but that made me laugh.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 11:49 AM

Wont UB My Nabor- I think the "fine shopping" your neighbor remembers was certainly more prevalent all over Brooklyn. Downtown Fulton Street was another such street. But things change, the resident populations changed also. I can't think of any hat shops except for a few in Manhattan- the Milliners Guild I believe has less than 100 members these days- I find that very sad. But people don't wear hats and gloves the way they used to. Retailers go where the business is-without enough demand, they go under. So it really is a true statement about meeting the needs of residents- It just doesn't tell the whole story.

That's not to say I think Nostrand can't stand improvement- it can, because I think the people who have long made up this neighborhood deserve better services and amenities. It shouldn't happen just because gentrifyiers are moving in.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 11:53 AM

There is also a Bank America on Eastern Parkway and Kingston. It would be nice to once again have a bank on Nostrand, but we hardly need banks on every corner, as in some neighborhoods. They are as unwanted there, too.

Tavern is a great place, they just re-opened under new owners, who happen to be friends of mine. The are working really hard to make it a success, and so far, it's working out well. My only complaint is that they aren't closer.

Wasder, that fantastic terra cotta clad building is a jewel. I don't know much about its origins, as it is outside of the historic district. It's long been on my list of buildings to investigate down at the DOB and perhaps the Historic Society. It's on the corner of Sterling Place and Nostrand Ave.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 11:58 AM

rob- I meant the way, say, real housewives are.

Nabor- I looked at the excel sheet- it's very confusing, unless I'm misreading it. The breakdown is weird- and why the indents? The categories are all over the place and seems to be a lot of overlap. Can you clarify?

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 12:01 PM

"Tavern is a great place, they just re-opened under new owners, who happen to be friends of mine. The are working really hard to make it a success, and so far, it's working out well. My only complaint is that they aren't closer."

MM - What happened to the previous owner (James i think his name was) He was an awfully nice guy - but his business ideas seemed a little too ambitious (opening two restaurants across the street from each other) Regardless, best of luck to the new owners

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 12:01 PM

Over the past few years, Community Board #8 (the location of this commercial strip)has collaborated with local merchants on various commercial strips to address issues which may have impeded economic development. Thus far, the successes can be seen on Vanderbilt Avenue, Washington Avenue and Franklin Avenue. Indeed, the Police and Economic Development committees have been engaged in the work to bring changes to Nostrand Avenue.

There are three challenges with respect to Nostrand Avenue are safety, real estate and matching the retail offerings with the needs of the community. A big concern has been safety. Nostrand Avenue has several challenges, many linked to the drug sale activity that overtook the corridor in the rock cocaine era of the 1980's and 1990's. A manifestation of this has been the recent presence of "Operation Impact" initiative.

A second, and not evident concern or issue or the landlords along Nostrand Avenue. Much of the commercial space is owned by one entity/family. One common tactic used towards the improvement of a commercial strip is the establishment of a merchants association. On Nostrand Avenue both the shop owners and the landlords are relcuctant to contribute towards a merchant association. With Vanderbilt Avenue, Washington Avenue and Franklin Avenue the formation of the merchants association pressaged the successful establishment of varied businesses offering services that residents earlier had to "leave the neighborhood" to obtain.

The third challenge is complex. What is the "right" mix of businesses along a particular corridor. For example, at one point Connecticut Muffin was looking for a location along Nostrand Avenue. The catch was their space requirement would have required that more than one long time established business would be displaced. In the end, the landlord decided that he would not displace a long term tenant.

The third challenge is the crux of the differences between the newcomers and long term residents. As the child of a Carribean immigrant who proudly lived in only one zip code for his years in the United States. As he acquired greater financial resources he moved from a one bedroom apartment to a family sized apartment to one of those highly sought after brownstones.

Let me share what his perspective on this. Yes, it is not convenient that ALL the things that I may want to buy are not located in walking distance of his home. He would have asked, "And whose home is?" For those people who bemoan the absence of a coffee shop on Nostrand Avenue he would say, "What's wrong with these people?" "Why can't the sit in their homes and enjoy a cup of coffee and maybe share the time with friends or family?" Do they live someplace without a kitchen or furniture?

From his perspective, the most important part of living in a community is your interaction with your neighbors, your religious community, your children's schools and recreation centers. That's what building a community is about.

From my perspective, if there are too many hair places for the demand, then these businesses will go out of business for the lack of customers and then perhaps, the newcomers will have their coffee shop. Lastly, I agree with the What. There are plenty of places to eat along Nostrand Avenue that are not takeout. It just may not be your kind of food.

Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at May 5, 2009 12:05 PM

One more thing. Anyone is welcome to join the Econonmic Development of Community Board #8. The meeting details are as follows:

Meeting Day: 2nd Tuesday of the Month
Time: 6:30 p.m.
Place: Center for Nursing and Rehabilitation
727 Classon Avenue( bet.Park Place and Prospect Place)

Posted by: BrooklynIsHome at May 5, 2009 12:08 PM

Hipster, his name is David, and he has his fingers in a lot of pots in business ventures all over, and is vastly overextended. I think he sold the pizza parlor across the street, as well.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 12:08 PM

David - that's right. wohoo my memory is bad.
well good to hear he's still in business elsewhere

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 12:15 PM

is there another viable block, strip, etc in CHN that is ripe for some new retail?

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 12:24 PM

Brooklynishome- I do drink coffee at home (and I make the world's worst cup of coffee which I am more than happy to inflict on company :-)

And I agree- Nostrand Ave. does and should reflect the needs of the community- its their home. But I know many long time residents who have live here for years (indeed many have grown up here and lived through the 70s - the present day) and who would love a great coffee shop. Just a place to sit and visit with friends out and about in the neighborhood. Not because I want trendy- but because i love and enjoy the neighborhood. People get isolated in their houses- restaurants and coffee shops are important places to interact and the ones that have opened up are mostly owned and run ny neighborhood residents who want to invest in the neighborhood and make it better, not disassemble it.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 12:37 PM

quote:

For those people who bemoan the absence of a coffee shop on Nostrand Avenue he would say, "What's wrong with these people?" "Why can't the sit in their homes and enjoy a cup of coffee and maybe share the time with friends or family?" Do they live someplace without a kitchen or furniture?

the answer is glaringly and pathetically cultural. people like coffee shops so they can sit there all day long on their mac laptops pretending to be avante garde writers and think people look at them and could give a crap. the truth is they just like to sit in coffee shops being narcissistic and browse facebook and twitter all day. you know it's true.

and yes, id SO rather brew my own coffee at home and enjoy it than sitting self reflexively in an overpriced coffee shop.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 12:43 PM

This strip sounds like my adjacent commercial corridor--Church Avenue near the B/Q stop, between Flatbush Ave. and Coney Island Ave. Same mix, same gripes: lots of hair and nail salons, lots of 99-cent stores selling terrifying crap from China even after it's recalled for being poisonous, a few fast-food joints, and a monster low-end department store called Bobby's that is destination shopping for, of all things, the Russians of Brighton Beach, as well as our local Caribbean population. Like Nostrand apparently was, this strip was a full-service middle-class commercial hub back in the day, with nice coffee shops and restaurants, a once-famous movie theater, produce stores, butcher, corner pharmacy, you name it. (Read Stingo's descriptions of his new Brooklyn nabe in 'Sophie's Choice'--that's the actual area right after WWII.) Today, there are still some produce, meat and fish stores, but their quality is sketchy, and the street itself is dirty and choked with illegal taxis doing suicidal U-turns.
So here's how the debate about these "vibrant urban shopping strips" (Times PC-speak) usually unfolds:
1. "Hey, half the people moving in here would like something decent. Why is there still nothing but crap?
2. "Hey, racist gentrifying Yuppie scum, this is what the local folks want obviously. Who needs a friggin' Starbucks anyway when we've got these tasty meat patties?"
May I suggest a tertiam quid? (that's Yuppiescumspeak for "third thingie." How about:
3. Hey, there's obviously a big market around here for hair braiding, manicures, and 99-cent stuff, but...You know what else this strip needs? A place to get my shoes repaired (NOT a high-end 'designer boutique'). A nice independent book store with a place to read to your kids. An internet cafe for folks who can't afford online access or their own PC. A drug store with a real pharmacist to counsel when you pick up your scrip, not a chain with "somebody back there." A supermarket with great prices and fresh produce, NOT a foofy organic "gourmet mart." An old-fashioned ice cream parlor where we could have a cheap but fun kids' birthday party in the back room, instead of an overpriced chain with a few plastic chairs like Haagen-Dazs. In other words, A FREAKING TIME MACHINE BACK TO THE SIXTIES, before "middle class" became weirdly synonymous with "rich, white and precious."
I've said this in threads about Fulton Mall, too: It is so insulting to those of us with tight budgets, whatever our race, to presume that we jes' want more of that crap from China and that chain-store fried chicken. Why is the only alternative a Park Slope retail Disneyworld of affluence? What is with the damn retail impairment, people? It seems such a failure of imagination. Community organizers of the world (or Brooklyn), unite; let's start a new breed of home-grown retailers! Festivus for the rest of us!

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at May 5, 2009 12:45 PM

Rob, wrong hood. if you see a mac in CHN coffee shop, higher odds it's McD's big Mac.

such a coffee shop in CHN wouldn't last

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 12:46 PM

i know that more4less, that's my point. the kind of people who bemoan the lack of whatever the hell it is they seem to whine for on a daily basis are the ones doing that, not the people who already shop in the area and live there. imagine if i won the lottery and moved to beverly hills and bitched and moaned that i couldnt find a cheap 40 ounce? same diff.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 12:57 PM

Brenda- perfect! and funny.

rrob- that is so not he coffee shops I want or go to. I want a great spot to sit, look at the people, enjoy my friends and say hi to everyone. Over a good cup of coffee with maybe a nice breakfast plate. A place like this owuld get so much neighborhood business it would make their head spin.

And Brenda is right- the neighborhood deserves better than what it has, without becoming park Slope. Even poor people deserve better retail and services. It is insulting to believe that Nostrand Ave. is just want the neighborhood wants. If anyone thinks that's the case, they haven't spoken to my neighbors.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 12:58 PM

variety & choices DOES NOT equal SUPER Expensive. There are so many inexpensive (maybe not cheap but certainly not expensive) retail options throughout NYC. Just puzzles me why some hoods get so little of those inexpensive & nice options while some hoods are over saturated with them.

More variety & choices are good to any hood. Starbucks would be good. it's a choice available to residents if they CHOOSE to spend that much on a cup of coffee, more power to them. Expensive restaurants would be good too. As long as this adds to the mix vs replacing existing retailers. Albeit I thought those expensive retailers would survive but hey, that's the retailers' risk to bear and additional choices available for residents to choose from.

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 1:09 PM

Brenda, you are a wonder. You should run for Plain Speaker of Brooklyn, and everyone should take notes when you speak...

I have to disagree, M4L. People around here are a lot more tech savvy, and with it than you may think. Almost everyone under 40 is quite conversant with the internet and computer stuff, no matter the income level, and lots of us old farts over 40 are too. I think a coffee shop with internet access would do really well, provided it also had comfortable chairs, enough tables and seating, some basic ambiance, and most importantly, some good food and drink. Go to somewhere like K-Dog in PLG. You see oldtimers and new folks, black, white and Asian, hipster and hip hopper in there because of all of the above, added to a great owner and staff. That could easily work here, and if I had the bucks, I'd do it myself in a minute.

Franklin Ave, technically part of Crown Heights, has a growing successful retail strip, partly because those great storefronts had been more or less abandoned in the last 30 years, and rents are reasonable. Bedford is mixed residential and commercial. Pockets of it could develop commercially, but it is impossible to have a continuous retail strip. Same for Rogers. On the other side of Nostrand, New York is entirely residential, as is Brooklyn Ave. Kingston could also be like Franklin, but now looks like Franklin did 10 years ago. There needs to be a concerted effort to rehab much of the residential space between Atlantic and EP, so that the retail spaces can flourish. Too much of it looks like an urban wasteland at this point, but it has great potential for the future, and this will come.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 1:12 PM

Walking down Nostrand and Fulton Mall always brings to mind that old Ice Cube song "Us":

"Us will always sing the blues, cause all we care about is hairstyles and tennis shoes"

Posted by: 11201 at May 5, 2009 1:13 PM

quote:

perhaps you should put your time machine back to the 90s and visit a show called Friends.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 5, 2009 1:21 PM

"That could easily work here, and if I had the bucks, I'd do it myself in a minute."

Is anyone in BK trying the Community Supported Restaurant model? It worked in Vermont. Community members give cash to the owner and then get their investment back through meals, drinks, etc.

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/79214/

Posted by: jessibaby at May 5, 2009 1:25 PM

The question is not so much do the shops fill a need in the community, the question is do they address many or most of the needs of the community.

Even as a black woman of Caribbean decent who needs to get her hair "did" every now and again, I say that the shops, while necessary in the 'hood, are not sufficient to address the needs of the broader community.

I grew up on oxtail and curry, but sometimes I just want some steak. Plus, there are so many artists and artisans in the community (some of whom who have been here for ages) but outside of the parade and Five Myles, there is nothing that really showcases their work. These things are not reflected on Nostrand.

Nostrand Ave. does not reflect the broader community. Let's not think that the residents of Crown Heights, new or old, are so one dimensional that we cannot appreciate both curry and coffee!

Posted by: Wont UB My Nabor at May 5, 2009 1:25 PM

more4less - totally untrue. All of the newer businesses on Franklin and Classon are doing very well (Glass House, Chavella's, Franklin Park, Abagails, etc). It is a stretch to say that just one can't survive on Nostrand? I know of many residents in that neighborhood that are hoping for something similar.

Posted by: lincolnlimestone at May 5, 2009 1:27 PM

MM, I beg to differ on the wi-fi coffee shops. Not doubting how tech savy is the hood but rather those wi-fi coffee shops would charge coffee, food, etc at price points I think is "EXPENSIVE" and be out of sync with the addressible mkt (ie out of business soon). That kind of coffee shop is a high mark-up (think Starbucks kind prices) but low transactions. To ensure success in CHN, price point needs to hit the addressible mkt - an inexpensive price that'll generate high transaction volume daily and frequent visits by recurring customers.

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 1:33 PM

rob- maybe you should stop navel gazing so much and get around more. You seem to have a very limited social/cultural experience and that's a shame. For the record- never a Friends fan, but at least I have quite a few.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 1:33 PM

LLstone, true true. Let me reframe my point. retail is a low success investmt to begin with. So if it's a choice of catering to the existing community (ie like my post above to MM) vs. what is perceived to be trend of newbies coming into the hood and gaining mass density, I'm saying it's better to the mkt that is there currently and the bigger share of the mkt than to build it & hope they come pricier mkt.

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 1:42 PM

M4L- I think the whole tech savvy market is pretty much overlooked in this neighborhood but I see flyers for people now who repair computers and teach people how to use programs, and kids today use computers for schoolwork. Many older people have them- even if they don't like them :-)- but there are a lot of business people around here and they do use them. I think there is a market for it and a place doesn't have to be Starbucks to do well. We want good- we don't have to have fancy.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 1:49 PM

M4L - But if that 'existing' community is well catered to and the new arrivals are not at all, where is the demand/opportunity? Econ 101. . . . . .

The crux of your argument is that you say "what is perceived to be trend of newbies coming into the hood and gaining mass density". You're obviously starting from an assumption that some have this perception when is actually may not be case. I can speak for new and older residents that the demand for another type of retail product is there and under-supplied.

I know that the first upscale coffee shop or other well-conceived product will have a much better chance of surviving than the next nail or hair salon. I've seen many of those open and close in the last several years. While other products mentioned above three blocks away on Franklin or Classon are thriving.

Posted by: lincolnlimestone at May 5, 2009 2:04 PM

Brownstoner:

Nostrand Avenue was important to any kid growing up in Crown Heights in the 50s and early 60s. For me, it was where I ran errands for my parents, first got to spend my own money, "found" religion, was introduced to the Civil Rights movement, and committed my one and only crime.

Down the block from us on Pacific Street were a corner grocer and soda shop, book ending our block. I'd swing left during the weekdays to pick up family staples and right on Sundays to get the New York Times. The soda shop was particularly appealing. The old fashioned type, it had tile floors and wood cabinetry and shelves bristling with papers. (There were plenty then: the Times, Mirror, Daily News, Tribune, etc.) The Times was an armful, but the Sunday ritual established a pattern carried into adulthood.

Across Nostrand was my brother's and my haunt, a stationers that sold Mad Magazine, the first periodical I ever bought for myself. The shop sat at the bottom of a wide, handsome tenement whose owners carved the big apartments into small units -- a sign of the social transformation occurring in Crown Heights at the time -- and then installed a temporary cut-rate stationers in the store next to the original to undermine its business and force the owners to break their lease. "Don't Buy Next Door!" the posters in the window of the old shop beseeched passers-by, "Don't Support Our Landlord's Greed!" -- for kids, a street-level introduction to competitive markets, to be discussed over the dinner table with our parents. (The landlord's strategy worked; both shops closed within a year, replaced by new tenants at higher rents.)

That's what a good neighborhood street does: it both serves and teaches kids. My next lesson came when picketers appeared in front of a local bakery that refused to hire African Americans, leading to yet another conversation at the dinner table that ended with the family decision to buy cakes and desserts only at Rosco's, the big supermarket at St. Marks Avenue. Of course, mass-produced cakes and cookies weren't as good as the bakery's but, as our father made clear, that was a small sacrifice to make. (I don't recall if the bakery changed its hiring policies. But it did close, like a lot of old-time retailers on the avenue.)

Some of my friends attended the Presbyterian church at Dean Street, whose Italianate campanile was a grace note on the avenue, so I followed them to Sunday school. My family was unchurched, but my parents let me go to read and talk about the Bible and draw my own conclusions. Every Sunday I'd put on a white shirt, dark slacks and a tie and join the drift of my pals to the place. That lasted all of a few
months, but it helped prep me for humanities courses in college.

And as for my crime. A second-grade classmate at P.S. 138 on Sterling Place dared me to steal a candy bar from the Mom and Pop at the school's corner at Nostrand. I grabbed it and ran off. "They're gypsies!" my friend yelled after me. "They put a hex on you!" After eating the candy bar I spent a couple of sleepless nights, expecting to die.

Also along Nostrand were a toy shop, a small department store, a fruit and nut store, a pizza parlor, and a bowling alley where we'd go with Dad -- everything kids needed. The bowling alley was also old-fashioned. A skinny guy went back and forth at the end of the lanes, setting up the pins. Located in a basement, the alley's crashing sounds came up through sidewalk grills, heightening my brother's and my anticipation of our "boys' night out."

Shortly after my parents died and I was clearing out their New York apartment, I found my brother's and my first Christmas gift to them: a set of big goblets that made us thihk of medieval knights, purchased at the little department store on Nostrand. Our parents thanked us warmly, then never used the tacky things. They did keep them, though, perfectly preserved in their original wrapping. When I found them, I was on Nostrand Avenue all over again.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at May 5, 2009 2:21 PM

LLstone, we might not agree still but don't think I'm getting my point to you so let me try again. I'm FOR new retail option entering the hood. be it at Nostrand or other locations in CHN. My point is new entrants need not be expensive. It does need to ADD to the variety and choices so residents have more to choose from. Expensive entrant is OK to me too as long as it ADDs to the choices. On the coffee shop with wi-fi catering to people lounging around 4ever, most (cant say ALL since I clearly have not visited ALL that's out there) charge a huge mark-up price. They generate profits via the huge profit margins. I'm suggesting a higher volume, lower prices, good food & svc would stand a better chance of survival. That to me hits the addressible mkt of the hood and benefits more people.

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 2:30 PM

NOP- I've been saving your posts for awhile now. I loved this one! You and Montrose are 2 of the most amazing writers. We're lucky to have you on Brownstoner.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 2:32 PM

NOP, that was perhaps the most visual and best story yet, and you've had some amazing stories. Thank you.

M4L,I'm certainly not advocating a Starbuck's like shop, with $5 coffee and $9 sandwiches, so that people can hang out all day, and as rob says, look cool. I'm sure someday that will be one of the shops on Nostrand, but in the meantime, I'd love to see a basic diner with good old comfort foods, a place to have an informal meeting over coffee, a place to get a burger and fries, or a chef's salad while reading a book, and a bagel and schmear on the weekend. These places are iconic now, and no longer belong to any nationality, and are a staple of American dining life. Everyone I speak to, no matter how long they've lived here, would flock to a place like this. I think it would rock in a place like the boarded up bank owned by Mazon's up near Park and Sterling.

Like in the Fulton Mall, I would love to see a mixture of retail, which maintains those businesses thriving with the current community, but has room for new businesses for not only newcomers, but for all of us, who have had to go elsewhere to get some things. Won't UB has good points. Being true to the neighborhood does not mean settling for marginal, substandard and less that great. We've done that far too long.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 5, 2009 2:53 PM

Thanks, Bxgrl. I think of you, Montrose, East New York and a few others as compadres claiming space for Crown Heights on Brownstoner.

As for Nostrand Avenue, if anybody bothered to look above the shops and into the perspective, they'd see the outlines of a street as handsome as Seventh and Fifth Avenues -- perhaps more so. There are nice details in the tenements, that handsome church tower, and the impressive limestone bank building at Eastern Parkway that combine with street's width/building height ratio to make it a good-looking street. (And wow, did that corner building posted above come over from the Alhambra or what?)

NOP

Posted by: NOP at May 5, 2009 2:53 PM

Thanks for that NOP - you really painted a vivid picture.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 5, 2009 2:56 PM

I think Mr. B should start a column called "Growing Up in the Nabe" and let people write about what it was like growing up in the different neighborhoods. Of course growing up in the Bronx automatically rules me out :-( but we have so many posters who can really paint a vivid picture of Brooklyn life- NOP, ENY, What, Cobblehiller, etc.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 3:06 PM

Apologies for the confusing Excel sheet. Not the most well versed in Excel.

Originally the list was sorted alphabetically and certain items, such as the various take-out categories (Caribbean, Chinese, Other) were grouped next to each other under the broader category of "Take-Out". Similarly banks and other financial were grouped together under the broader category of "Financial Services" . When the sheet was resorted to do the ranking, the groupings went to the wayside. What remained is what you see. Apologies again.

Posted by: Wont UB My Nabor at May 5, 2009 3:37 PM

thanks, Wont UB :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 3:44 PM

M4L - It's all relative. Just because a specialty shops charges more than a bodega for coffee and people happen to be hanging out there doesn't mean that they will not do volume. You have a point that $4 lattes will not fly on Nostrand, but a coffee shop similar to many than have taken root in cheaper priced neighborhoods can easily get away with charging twice as much as the corner bodega for superior products and inviting environs. My point is simply that the demand is there for, gasp, $1.50 medium coffees. . . . . .

Posted by: lincolnlimestone at May 5, 2009 4:18 PM

"I think Mr. B should start a column called "Growing Up in the Nabe" and let people write about what it was like growing up in the different neighborhoods. Of course growing up in the Bronx automatically rules me out :-( but we have so many posters who can really paint a vivid picture of Brooklyn life- NOP, ENY, What, Cobblehiller, etc."

I would like to start a column called "Get The Fuck Out Of Here"!

I will expose my true feelings of the Asshead movement of Covert Race/Class warfare and the incessant whining of the Retards! Plus I will expose the Poser Broke Assed Hipster Clique!

The What (Move to Park Slope Posers)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 5, 2009 5:28 PM

Some areas of Brooklyn seem under-yuppified while others (Fort Greene) go over the top. A nice balance of old, new, low, and high would make everyone happy.

Oh, and ladies, I'm sure you'll be happy to know you can get your hat needs met in Williamsburg, which is now home to two new hat stores. Here is one. I cannot wait to wear the feather hats in slide 4 whilst sweeping the sidewalk:

http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2009/05/ryan_wilde_will_customize_your.html#

Posted by: mopar at May 5, 2009 5:34 PM

Awww, What- such lovely sentiments.Thanks for sharing.

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 5:46 PM

"I would like to start a column called "Get The Fuck Out Of Here"!

I will expose my true feelings of the Asshead movement of Covert Race/Class warfare and the incessant whining of the Retards! Plus I will expose the Poser Broke Assed Hipster Clique!"

I'd read it...

Posted by: East New York at May 5, 2009 5:49 PM

that would be the most-read column. good reading too

Posted by: more4less at May 5, 2009 5:53 PM

You know, I'm actually quite surprised since the What has always been so shy and reticent about his feelings. I would hope he holds nothing back and doesn't think to spare our feelings. We expect nothing less :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at May 5, 2009 6:24 PM

NOP, thank you for the well written post.

Posted by: lechacal at May 6, 2009 7:48 AM

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May 5, 2009

Nostrand Ave: Many Hair Salons, No Cafés

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