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May 29, 2009

Co-Housing Building May Be 'Most Energy Efficient' in NYC

The Brooklyn co-housing group's building at 1901 Eighth Ave is slated to be one of the greenest buildings in the city, according to the project's consultants: "The method of construction the group has adopted is called 'Passive House' or, as it is known in Germany where it originated, 'PassivHaus.' According to [co-housing spokesperson Alex] Marshall, it involves a set of techniques resulting in a nearly air-tight building that simultaneously is supplied with clean, fresh air. Often heating and air conditioning is unnecessary beyond minimal levels, he said, and energy use can be a tenth of what it is in an average building." The are only a handful of private homes in the U.S. that meet 'PassivHaus' standards. The co-housing group is now composed of 16 families and has space for 14 more, said Marshall.
Windsor Terrace Cohousing May Have Greenest Building in NYC [Eagle]
Brooklyn Co-Housing Lands in Greenwood Heights [Brownstoner] GMAP
Rendering from Brooklyn Co-Housing Website

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I admit to being intrigued by this whole co-housing project, but the one glaring problem for me is the site location - right on the Prospect Expressway! Who wants to live with the constant drone of traffic, not to mention pollution?

Posted by: Park_loper at May 29, 2009 9:51 AM

quote:

"a nearly air-tight building "

one word... POO MIST! or do they just poop in holes in the ground in the courtyard?!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 29, 2009 10:09 AM

We have a PassivHaus at the German language summer program where I used to teach. It's really amazing technology. I don't know what it cost to build, but the energy savings over time more than make up for it. Any contractor can build with the materials - no special expertise or training required. It would be nice to see more of them here. I never got sick when I stayed there, Rob, so I guess the poo mist problem isn't that bad!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at May 29, 2009 10:24 AM

I'm w rob on this, unusually. Buildings that don't let in fresh air freak me out. I like opening thye damn windows.

PL, I live on the block. Noise is a quiet drone, like white noise. You hardly notice it. Anyway if the seal up the building the way tehy are planning they won't hear a thing.

Posted by: denton at May 29, 2009 11:22 AM

I'm w rob on this, unusually. Buildings that don't let in fresh air freak me out. I like opening thye damn windows.

PL, I live on the block. Noise is a quiet drone, like white noise. You hardly notice it. Anyway if the seal up the building the way tehy are planning they won't hear a thing.

Posted by: denton at May 29, 2009 11:22 AM

What is the insulation R Factors for macrame wall hangings? Hemp? "POO MIST"?

Posted by: IMBY at May 29, 2009 11:47 AM

It is not a good idea to live in an hermetically sealed building. Leave it to the Germans to come up with such an inhumane concept for residential buildings. Germs and viruses will get into the building on people's hands, shoes and clothes but will not be able to get out. Does this relly seem like a good idea? Is living with no fresh air, or breezes wafting in on nice days worth the savings in heating cost?
This is why I could never join a group-think sect ilke this.
I would be the apostate who would be thrown out before the doors open.

Posted by: sam at May 29, 2009 1:10 PM

The airtight house thing is particularly difficult to understand (and sell) since it requires a 24/7 running air exchanger to swap out the stale air. This unit also exchanges heat so it reduces energy usage. But it bugs me, who turns off each light as I leave a room, that there has to be a constantly running electrical device to prevent the air in the house from becoming unbreathable.

I think a less-tight house where you would accept more variance in temperature/humidity w/o needing such a unit, is preferable.

Posted by: cmu at May 29, 2009 1:11 PM

cmu: I saw the numbers at the public presentation they held. Passive House air circulation and heat exchanger uses a tiny fraction of the energy a normal HVAC system would use -- it is this small expenditure of energy that makes the massive savings in net energy use possible. Energy costs are like 1/5 of standard building code construction.

Also, re:hygiene -- fresh air is circulated and filtered to a much higher quality than the air in a normal residential or commercial building. As a result it is cleaner and more hygienic than normal.

Posted by: Ainslie at May 29, 2009 2:28 PM

In the PassivHaus I lived in, you could always open the door if you wanted fresh air. Of course, that was in rural Minnesota...

Sam, I never felt that it was stuffy or anything like that in that PassivHaus, nor were any more germs passed around than normal. I never got sick - and this was at a summer camp with a bunch of kids!

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at May 29, 2009 3:08 PM

dear all,

i am the Passive House consultant for Brooklyn Cohousing.

*rob*, poo mist is directly exhausted from the bathrooms to the outdoors by the exhaust side of the mechanical ventilation system.

denton, the windows can all be opened. the mechanical ventilation system provides fresh air during extreme weather when opening a window would be uncomfortable. it also captures the useful heat and moisture (or coolness and dryness) of the exhaust air stream in order to reduce heating/cooling energy needs. it also filters outdoor air so that dust and dirt do not enter, as they would when opening a window.

sam, as per previous comments, plenty of fresh air is moved through the building both by the mechanical ventilation system and by openable windows. research shows that in winter buildings with mechanical ventilation systems do in fact have cleaner, fresher air than buildings with opening windows only. this is mainly because people leave the windows closed when it's cold outside.

cmu, it is unsafe to rely on cracks in walls ("a less-tight house") for fresh air supply. if a wall is REALLY leaky (think colonial cottage), no problem. but if it's a little leaky (on par with most contemporary construction), then whenever a trickle of warm humid air passes through to the cold side of the wall, the moisture condenses out and wets the wall. once we have the right temperature range, a wet wall, and some dust, mold thrives. for this reason, if one is going to seal a wall at all (and for energy and comfort purposes this is a really good idea), then the tighter the better, and fresh air should be brought in through windows, mechanical ventilation, or purpose-built devices such as trickle vents. mechanical ventilation is great because it ensures enough air for health, but not so much as to waste energy or make the air too dry in winter.

best,
david

Posted by: DCoyleWhite at May 29, 2009 3:58 PM

six: you are trying to tell me that I should be open to living, here in Brooklyn, in a housing type you lived in at chidren's summer camp in rural Minnesota? I don't think so.
On so many levels.

Posted by: sam at May 29, 2009 4:00 PM

There's a builder in CO who does a variation on it. It's not hermetically sealed, that would lead to condensation I think. Not to mention poo mist. There are valves (sorry don['t know the correct terminology) that allow for air exchange

Posted by: bridges at May 29, 2009 4:29 PM

I have valves in my house that allow for air exchange, I call them windows and they are not only functional but also very beautiful in a non-german-passiv way.
All I don't need in my deep rowhouse are super airtight valves. On hot sunny summer days, do you know what I do? I close the shutters! American Victorian engineering at its finest!!

Posted by: sam at May 29, 2009 4:40 PM

LOL sam.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 29, 2009 5:06 PM

I wish some of you would read up a bit before running your fingers over the keyboard. There is so much on the Internet these days so you can do some quick research on Passivhaus. Sam, in particular, please do some reading.

Thank you David and others who tried to explain this. It would be very nice if the basic concepts of more sustainable buildings were more widely understood...but what are you going to do? It's one step at a time.

Both between our house in Brooklyn and our place in New England (which is shingled and old), I can certainly attest to the fact that old buildings can have leaky walls (well, with brick walls, it has to do more with the entire "skin" of the house and fact that the outer walls that have old plasterwork, crown mouldings and baseboards don't allow for a ton of insulation...oh well). Our NE house feels like the wind is blowing through it in winter! I guess we have to take the plunge and deal with insulation, redo, or move on to an easier project.

We were interested in the Brooklyn Cohousing project and VERY glad when it was coming to Fort Greene...and really thought about participating but it was a very weird time (still is) when they finally thought they'd be able to pull off the project and, as I knew after an orientation, it was going to be too expensive overall and the apartment "prices"/shares were going to be too high for the "market".

Well, I'm now very excited about the low energy/Passivhaus project but I have to wonder about exhaust and noise from the Prospect right down below the street there..Ugh--aside from the unfortunate not-so-cute area which I would probably be depressed by, at least at first. I guess there was no place large enough and affordable in more pretty neighborhoods...kind of a shame but maybe the project will give that area a lift.

Posted by: BrooklynGreene at May 29, 2009 7:01 PM

brooklynGreene: this is brooklyn, it isn't Hamburg. You go fuck yourself you little self-righteuous dick wanker. You know shit.

Posted by: sam at May 29, 2009 8:29 PM

Mr white -- could you comment on the construction cost of a passivhaus relative to regular construction -- would be very instructive to get some idea of the additional capital investment

Posted by: ulall at May 29, 2009 8:35 PM

I'm also curious about exactly how much MORE it would cost and what the (hopefully accurate) energy savings projections are.

Posted by: Joe from Brooklyn at June 6, 2009 3:50 PM

From the cohousing website:

"We are a group of people who want the option for greater community life where we live. We are creating a green sustainable community; we include families with children, single people, couples and retirees. We expect to share resources & interests (for example share child care, cook together some weekly community meals, share tools, garden together etc) while each owning our own fully equipped private apartments.
Cohousing is a nice balance between privacy and community. "

Not very cult-like, seems to me. I don't understand the disdain and nasty comments about this. While I, like sam, would not opt to live here, seeing as there are over 100 such communities in the US, plenty would.

what's wrong if others make the choice to live there? The way this thread is sounding someone should start selling pitchforks and torches.

Posted by: bxgrl at June 16, 2009 11:47 AM

« Open Thread Red Hook Townhouse Project On the Market »

May 29, 2009

Co-Housing Building May Be 'Most Energy Efficient' in NYC

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