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May 11, 2009

Brooklynites Jumping Ship to Manhattan?

Could it be that many self-proclaimed Brooklyn loyalists are ready to trade it all in at the first sign of a recession? Was the borough's surging popularity in recent years merely a function of Manhattan becoming unaffordable? Or is Brooklyn still a first choice for many? The Real Estate section cover story from yesterday's New York Times certainly tries to create the impression that, given the chance, a number of folks who professed to like Brooklyn in recent years are finding the lure of affordable rents and proximity to work just too much to resists. Take Andrew Baisley, who describes himself as a "cheerleader for Brooklyn." The Bushwick resident, though, just last month jumped at the chance to rent a $2,100-a-month one-bedroom in Chelsea. “When you go to Manhattan, there’s an air of selling out,” he says. “I’ve accepted that.” Let's try to get a sense of how many fair-weather Brooklynites there really are out there:

Manhattan Calling [NY Times]

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Comments

I liked my three years on the Upper West Side, but I could never imagine making NYC a permanent home until I wound up in Brooklyn Heights.

Posted by: alsawo at May 11, 2009 9:06 AM

If you can tell me when I'll get a townhouse with a 20' X 50' yard for about $1MM, then I'll go.

*Manhattan Townhouses Ninety Percent Off Peak Comps*

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 9:07 AM

I could never imagine living in Manhattan -ugh
Any apt my friends had rented within the past 12 years,no matter the area in Manhattan was always smaller and uglier to any apt that I rented in Jersey city or BK.
No thanks - will never live in NYC

Posted by: gemini10 at May 11, 2009 9:09 AM

Go west, young douches. We don't need youse in Brooklyn no more.

Posted by: 5w30 at May 11, 2009 9:11 AM

And the people profiled all said they'd had to give up space or amenities to make the move...

Posted by: Arkady at May 11, 2009 9:13 AM

“There’s no sink in the bathroom,” he said, “but concessions must be made.”

ROTFLMMFAO

*Manhattan Townhouses Ninety Percent Off Peak Comps*

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 9:27 AM

I would imagine this is mostly a rental phenomenon, and as such makes perfect sense. There were always a certain percentage of Brooklyn renters that were there because they were priced out of Manhattan and now that they can afford to be at the epicenter they will move back. For the folks like us on this site, especially the homeowners, hard to imagine that this changes the equation much. Even if price were not a consideration and I had all the money in the world I would not live in Manhattan.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 9:30 AM

My thought is that the peopled saying they want to move back to Manhattan are still very much into "the scene".

Going out late nights and weekends. Making the commute back to Bklyn much less appealing since it's done during off-peak hours. I know when I was going out a lot the ride home was a bear and the drive home expensive.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at May 11, 2009 9:33 AM

Hiya Dumbasses!

This article gave me a massive Hard-On! Hey DIBS remember I told you my friend (Broker) phone was ringing off the hook for Manhattan you called me a liar. Yesterday people was calling me and said "You was right, What".

Today the value of "Brownstone Brooklyn"took a F****ing nose dive. The Asshat community saw that article and are picking up boxes from the Liquor Store, ROTFLMMFAO! The Asshats are moving to the City this summer and the rents in Brooklyn are going to cave!

Let's look at some fine points, shall we...

ANDREW BAISLEY described himself as a “cheerleader for Brooklyn” — at least until a month ago, when the proud Bushwickian decided to take a peek at the Manhattan rental market. Now he has a one-bedroom in Chelsea with outdoor space and a 10-minute commute, all for an “unbelievable” $2,100 a month.

A "Cheerleader for Brooklyn"??? Where did I heard that before??? Oh yeah a Asshead named Dave in Bed Stuy a.k.a "Suck it down". How is that working now Dave???

"Great Recession prices are drawing even the most loyal outer-borough dwellers back to Manhattan. The migrants hail from Hoboken, Astoria and the brownstone blocks off Prospect Park, as New Yorkers who found themselves priced out of the gilded isle in the boom years are bidding farewell to long commutes and skinny-jean chic."

What???!! A pot shot at the Hipsters??? Oh the humanity of it all..... Sniff....

For an extra $100 a month, Mr. O’Brien — a seven-year Brooklyn stalwart — is now enjoying a trendy location and a six-minute commute, in exchange for losing half of his living space. “There’s no sink in the bathroom,” he said, “but concessions must be made.”

Newly minted Manhattanites range from 30-somethings seeking a professional edge through a shorter commute, to out-of-work recent graduates who think they can get a better deal on the Upper East Side than in the usual post-college enclaves of Williamsburg and Fort Greene.

Oh no not Fort Greene!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please I paid 2.7 million for my Brownstone and I need help with the mortgage!!! Please come Back... Please...

"On May 1, Ms. Giamichael and a roommate moved into an 800-square-foot one-bedroom in Ruxton Towers, a landmark prewar building on 72nd Street off Central Park West. The two will split the $2,600 rent, and the landlord paid the fee to their broker, Caroline Bass of Citi Habitats."

Whoa!!!!! The owners are paying the Brokers fee?????????!!!!!! In Manhattan?????!!!! Oh Brooklyn is so dead...

"But the flow of Manhattanites into Kings County has apparently slowed. In the first three months of 2008, nearly a quarter of renters moving to Brooklyn hailed from Manhattan. A year later, only 9 percent of renters came from across the river, according to data from Ideal."

Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!! Brooklyn is different!!!! My friend Muffy is looking in East New York, she is selling her Townhouse on Central Park West!!!!!!!!!

Guys I will continue the dibs from this article. Don't worry dumbasses you will allways have The What to keep you company and to remind you how f**** stupid you are...

The What (Buh Bye Retards Nice knowing you, NEXT!)

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 9:36 AM

Why don't you move to Manhatttan, What????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 9:41 AM

""But the flow of Manhattanites into Kings County has apparently slowed. In the first three months of 2008, nearly a quarter of renters moving to Brooklyn hailed from Manhattan. A year later, only 9 percent of renters came from across the river, according to data from Ideal."

That means 91% came from somewhere else. Brooklyn has broadened its appeal.

Get yourself a roomate What and you too can live in Manhattan on your Lodi rent.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 9:44 AM

Wow, that was a long post What. Do you have a job? Wow! Where do you get the time?

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 11, 2009 9:45 AM

As an old school Brooklynite, this makes me happy. As a landlord, it makes me worried.

Posted by: rh at May 11, 2009 9:46 AM

"Why don't you move to Manhatttan, What????"

Brooklyn is my home! Dave today "Brownstoner Brooklyn" is toast! The Asshat community is packing up and moving to Manhattan, trust me. This is to most talked about article this morning! This is a big blow to the Mutant Asset Bubble Dumbass and the Bond yields are going up higher Mortgage rates coming!

The What (But... but... but... they said Brooklyn was different)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 9:46 AM

why someone moving from one apt to another within same city generates so much interest and debate and comment is beyond me. who cares if apt in is queens manhatan or the bronx

Posted by: Petebklyn at May 11, 2009 9:47 AM

But you live in NJ. How lame is that???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 9:47 AM

it seems kinda disingenuous to trumpet one boro, only to jump ship when the price is right elsewhere, but ultimately I'm glad if people can move where they want to. it's no secret that people champion their neighborhood as a way of mitigating their insecurity over it, so at least this exodus (if there really is one) will shake out some people who apparently never really wanted to live here (brooklyn) in the first place. bon voyage! i don't know why people go to manhattan at all (except to work!)

Posted by: Jimmy Legs at May 11, 2009 9:48 AM

I'll believe it, What, when I see streets available for parking instead of being lined with dumpsters.

Posted by: Arkady at May 11, 2009 9:49 AM

if i could move back to manhattan i would. i think. i mean hells i paid a ton less money in manhattan for rent than i do in brooklyn. i sorta like that there are less people around and no constant noise outside my window. i must say tho that i do hate that i have to write brooklyn, ny instead of new york city, ny, on letters tho. brooklyn actually is kinda lame when you think about it, always has been really, but you have to live somewhere i guess. if i had the balls id so live in the bronx.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 11, 2009 9:52 AM

Gee did you ever think that the NYTIMES writes an article like this to appease all the developers with empty apartments on their hands? DUH.

Posted by: billyboomer at May 11, 2009 9:53 AM

It's Peanut Butter Jelly Time!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4&feature=related

It's peanut butter jelly time, peanut butter jelly time, peanut butter jelly time

(Chorus:)
Where he at 4x
There he go 4x
Peanut butter jelly 4x
Do the peanut butter jelly, peanut butter jelly,
Peanut butter jelly with a baseball bat 2x

(Chorus)

Now, break it down and freeze 4x

(Chorus)

Now tic tac toe (uh-huh)
Tic tac toe (let's go)
Tic tac toe (you got it)
Tic tac toe (let's ride)

(Chorus)

Now, freestyle, freestyle, freestyle, freestyle, freestyle, your style 2x

Where he at 4x
There he go 4x

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 9:53 AM

"But you live in NJ. How lame is that???"

Right Dave stick to the story!!!

"I'll believe it, What, when I see streets available for parking instead of being lined with dumpsters."

Soon, very soon!

"Wow, that was a long post What. Do you have a job? Wow! Where do you get the time?"

Welfare...

The What (But.. but.. but.. Obama will save us, right?)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 9:56 AM

Hmmm. I love Brooklyn. Only been here about a year. It was painfull getting used to the commute. I might consider moving back to Manhattan to get rid of the commute, but it would be a trade off, that is for sure. Gotta say, the biking and walking opportunities, restaurants and park access in the Slope make where I live one of the most liveable places in the world.

Posted by: Stuart at May 11, 2009 9:56 AM

As far as I'm concerned the quality of life is far less in Manhattan - so the prices would have to reflect that. When I can get a 1,200 sq foot duplex on a quiet tree lined block near nightlife, transportation and less then a 25 minute commute from my job for less then 2000 bucks lets talk.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 10:01 AM

The only reason this would be a concern to me and to many other Brooklyn homeowners would be if there were nobody to rent the garden unit in my house. Given that I am already renting it at a fairly low price I am not too worried about this.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 10:19 AM

Lincoln Center > BAM
Central Park > Prospect Park
10 minute commute > 30 minute commute

I've been in Brooklyn over 20 years and I'd move to Manhattan in a heartbeat if prices were comparable. But they never have been in my lifetime, and almost certainly never will be.

Posted by: Sparafucile at May 11, 2009 10:21 AM

> "a 1,200 sq foot duplex on a quiet tree lined block near nightlife,
> transportation and less then a 25 minute commute from my job for
> less then 2000 bucks"

And where did you find that in Brooklyn?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 10:25 AM

like other posters have said the prices really are not comparable. could you get an apartment for the same price you pay in brooklyn? yes. would it be as nice or as large as the one you could have in brooklyn for the same price? no.

Posted by: eh at May 11, 2009 10:26 AM

I don't understand the hype either, let 'em live where they want. As wasder said, I wouldn't live anywhere else, no matter how much money I had. For me, and lots of other people, it's not just the money, it the space, the yard, the quality of life, the neighborhood and the people. Most importantly, it's the spectacular pleasure of not being in Manhattan.

Sure, when you go out late in Manhattan, it's a pain to get home, especially on the train after midnight, when it goes local. I suppose if I had the money, I could get a home in someplace like Hamilton Heights in Harlem, which is a comparable neighborhood to Crown Hgts, with similar architecture. But it wouldn't be the same. They don't have the same graciousness of space in the street planning, or the same mixture of neighbors. The history, although interesting, is different, I'd even miss the Foodtown. I don't want to live in Manhattan. I really love Brooklyn, warts and all. I love the spirit, the independence, the Brooklyn moxie and chutspah.

The article is aimed at young professionals and upwardly mobile types with no kids, who generally don't settle down anyway, and are always moving from better deal to better deal. When you get older, your family grows, you want roots. You want to be connected to a place. Most of my upwardly mobile, hip and happening friends and co-workers who lived in trendy areas of Manhattan did one of several things as time went by - if they had great deals or rent stabilized apartments, they generally stayed. If they had kids, they left the city for the burbs. Or they moved to Brooklyn.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 11, 2009 10:28 AM

OK, so how many of you voted multiple times on the "no" side? lol.

Or have there really been 198 "no" votes by 10:22am...

Anyway, it it were not for daycare issues the likelihood of my moving back to Manhattan would be 95%. With all the grief associated with finding good daycare, it's more like 30%.

But, all things being equal, I'd be delighted to move back to Manhattan. It's not that I have anything against Brooklyn. I just like Manhattan more. I'm a city kind of guy.

And I have no interesting in the Manhattan "scene" now that I've learned fatherhood means never getting to sleep again. It is just a more convenient place to live and I really hate the extra commuting time. Being crammed onto a 3 train during rush hour is not my idea of happy living.

Not being able to walk out of a store and hail a cab pisses me off to no end as well. Why the hell can't you hail a cab in this borough?

Oh, and the closing of the used book store on Bergen between 5th and 6th is pretty much the last straw for park slope and me. WTF kind of neighborhood doesn't have used book store?

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 10:30 AM

I moved from the east village to park slope two years ago, for two reasons: for the same money I could get a lot more space, and I was sick of the constant noise. However, and very much to my surprise, I find that the thing I miss most about living in Manhattan was that I could walk to and from work. Used to be a great 35 minute commute, great way to wake up and then to put stressful days behind me, and I used to do it unless I was incredibly late or the weather was really dreadful. Now I pretty much have to take the subways, unless the weather is beautiful and I have well over an hour with nothing planned after work.

If I could find a quiet, decently sized place downtown, I'd go back without reservation.

That said, I'm a renter. If I could scrape up a down payment, I'm sure I'd find much better deals in Brooklyn, downturn or not.

Posted by: toadie at May 11, 2009 10:30 AM

omg do I need more sleep. Can't type or use proper grammar.

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 10:34 AM

"And where did you find that in Brooklyn?"

Good ol Williamsburg.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 10:34 AM

> 'Good ol Williamsburg."

I was going to guess that, but the bit about "tree-lined street" threw me off.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 10:37 AM

The Brooklyn hype machine has exploded! Please report to the radiation protection center immediately! I repeat the Brooklyn Hype machine has exploded!!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 10:38 AM

northslope--even with a kid you would move back? That is the reason I never will--on account of the fact that I would never be able to give my kids even half of the lifestyle we have in Clinton Hill. Last night, after doing a bunch of gardening with my 3 year old we went up onto the deck and cooked out and watched the birds in the big tree in the yard. There is just no way I would ever be able to provide my family with the same kinds of lifestyle amenities. Crammed into an apt in Manhattan? Not for me.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 10:39 AM

I like the atmosphere of Brooklyn, the architecture, the people...there are so many unquantifiables that go into our idea of "home" that it always cracks me up when people (ie the NYTimes) write their RE / neighborhood articles as if the urban landscape is made up purely of subway lines, apartment stock and "amenities" (barf).

Does nobody have a sense of place anymore?

PS - Prospect Park = WAY better than Central Park (IMHO), and Lincoln Center would be ok if it weren't so overpriced.

Posted by: collin85 at May 11, 2009 10:40 AM

I was going to guess that, but the bit about "tree-lined street" threw me off

yeah - there are tree lined streets. most of the streets btw Graham and Union are quite leafy.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 10:47 AM

quote:

I suppose if I had the money, I could get a home in someplace like Hamilton Heights in Harlem, which is a comparable neighborhood to Crown Hgts, with similar architecture.

that's where i lived in harlem. it's a sh-t hole there and the quality of life SUUUUUUUUUUUCKS. the only cool thing about that area are the really GOOD dollar stores and open fire hydrants in the summer.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 11, 2009 10:48 AM

wasder,

If the choice is a house with a garden in Brooklyn or a cramped apartment in Manhattan, then I'd choose Brooklyn.

But, the choice is between an apartment in Brooklyn with a long commute or a slightly smaller apartment in Manhattan with a shorter commute. Shorter commute = more time. And I have never in my life felt so in need of time as I do now.

Not to mention when we lived in Manhattan my wife I could both walk to work (or take bus/subway if the weather was lousy). This was so much more pleasant than the subway, and combined we are spending at least an extra $120/month on metrocards.

Also, I would really like to have washer/dryer in my apartment or at least on the same floor, and I'd like to be in a first floor apt. or in an elevator building. It will be easier to find a place like that in Manhattan than north or center park slope (which is where I have to live if I want to keep my son in his daycare center).

nsr

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 10:50 AM

hey d-h,

How is the L train these days? I used to date somebody who lied at the Graham Ave stop back in 2000. Trains were insanely crowded. Are they better? Worse?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 11:11 AM

I don't find the L that bad. Some mornings it's empty and some mornings it's really crowded. I get on at Lorimer and can always fit on the train - I've had to let maybe 5 trains go by in 2 years. That's probably because they finished that signal system on the L that allows the trains to run much closer together (2 minutes i think)

Some people make the L out to be the anti-christ of all trains. I tell them to try getting on the 6 train @ 77th street at 8:30 in the morning.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 11:17 AM

the L train is the absolutely worst nightmare of a train in entire nyc. dipster is lying out of his ass in previous post. every single person i know and work with who takes the L says it's a nightmare at ALL hours. plus it's filled with vile people. i'd rather go poor and take a cab than take the L train.

the *L*OSER train!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 11, 2009 11:27 AM

I live in Brooklyn because I absolutely love it. I love waking up to Lincoln PL on weekend mornings. I love the trees in the Spring when the Cherry Blossoms are blooming. I love that i can walk around at 2am and everything seems like it did decades ago before ipods and cells phones and twittering. I am 28 and enjoy to unplug. I walk by Prospect Park and the breeze is strong and a couple is sitting on a bench talking and I feel like I am home. No sky scrappers or loud college kids or night clubbers from Jersey. I just freaking love it. I have a washer and dryer in my cheap apartment and I have neighbors that tell me when they see someone weird in the building and its just a great feeling. I would not go to Manhattan. And it has nothing to do with price. I just love my home.

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 11, 2009 11:29 AM

4 or 6 train is definitely the worst...

Everytime I have to go downtown for a meeting, I wonder how people commute for 25 minutes standing up, twice a day.

collin, well said. it may SOUND like being close to all these amenities is so great, but in truth it turns out not to be the topmost priority for people.

I would live in Manhattan if I had a high pressure job and needed a place to return to and go into my cave. Instead I have a pleasant job and when I get out of work I don't need to activate my brain more or to recover.

Posted by: infinitejester at May 11, 2009 11:29 AM

The L train did used to suck comprehensively. I would routinely have to let 2 or 3 trains pass by every morning before there was one I willing to stuff myself into. Glad to hear that the updated signal system seems to have improved things.

I was working in Midtown at the time, so I would have to switch to the uptown 4/5/6. That was truly hell during morning rush hour.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 11:30 AM

"the L train is the absolutely worst nightmare of a train in entire nyc. dipster is lying out of his ass in previous post. every single person i know and work with who takes the L says it's a nightmare at ALL hours. plus it's filled with vile people. i'd rather go poor and take a cab than take the L train. "

Do your friends have jobs Rob? - I take it every morning during rush hour(except when it's nice - bike) and it's fine. Some mornings it sucks and about once a month all hell breaks loose and I walk down to the J.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 11:38 AM

"I was working in Midtown at the time, so I would have to switch to the uptown 4/5/6. That was truly hell during morning rush hour."

Eesh Snark - yeah I would want to gouge my eyes out if I had to do the L -> 4,5,6 even now. I avoid the "green" trains like the plague. the L -> R/W downtown is a pretty tame commute.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 11:40 AM

rob, one person's hell is another's heaven. The parts of Hamilton Heights I'm thinking of certainly don't suck, by any definition of the term. Still and all, I'll take Brooklyn, anyway.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 11, 2009 11:50 AM

Hamiton Heights is nice - Is Striver's Row considered part of HH? That's probably one of my fav blocks in the whole city.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 11:56 AM

I loved this article. Absolutely true, and full of priceless lines. The only thing missing was "taxi math." Though one guy alluded to it -- add the cost of taxis onto your Brooklyn rental, and see all the money you will save by moving to Manhattan! (Not really, since you will still take taxis in Manhattan. You will also eat out at many sucky restaurants and pay through the nose.)

Ever since rent control was abolished, every apartment in the city has become $1900. The only difference is they become progressively smaller the closer you get to Manhattan.

Our lives would be so much easier if we lived within walking distance of the Union Square greenmarket or Citarella, but we need a ridiculous amount of space for the book business. We also need a loading zone and parking, so -- no way.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 12:03 PM

mopar...what kind of book business???

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 12:05 PM

mopar,

You lost me. Do you hate Manhattan or do you want to live near the union square greemarket (which I use to -- and, yes, it is great)?

And "every apartment in the city has become $1900" hurts my brain.

But I'm admittedly operating on too little sleep and something witty probably just went over my head.

nsr

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 12:10 PM

Man I will be glad when neighborhood go back to being their original names!

Stuyvesant Heights ---> Bed Stuy.

North Crown Heights (WTF!) ---> Crown F***ing Hieights

Greenwood Heights (WTF is up with all the "Heights")---> Sunset Park

BoCaDo????!!!!!!----> DownF****ingtown!!!!!!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 12:12 PM

"add the cost of taxis onto your Brooklyn rental"

What an asinine statement. People in Manhattan seriously think the east river is like 20 miles wide or something. My cab ride from Soho/Nolita/LES to Williamsburg is 8-12 bucks compared to, what, 17-20 to go to the UES/UWS. Sure, if I lived in Soho I wouldn't need to take a taxi - but that savings would be moot when I'm paying 4k a month for a faux "loft-like" space.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 12:20 PM

What, with this, I agree 10000000000%

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 11, 2009 12:20 PM

northsloperenter - the used book store is moving to prospect heights, on vanderbilt. it's nice over here, and the commute is the same...

obviously, the article was tilted toward singles and younger couples, for whom the switch from a one-bedroom to a studio, or from a real bathroom to one without a sink, could be made with relative ease and for which the trade-offs seem more "worth it."

what i'd like to see is a comparison between larger apartments for families, the price and amenity differentials, and school districts. my guess is that it will be a long time, if ever, before we see good family-size rentals in decent manhattan school districts priced competitively with those in bklyn. it's not just about the commute - i'd love a shorter travel time, but i'm not at the point yet where the 45 mins saved seems worth sharing a room with my 2-year old.

Posted by: i disagree at May 11, 2009 12:22 PM

DH, not everyone hangs out at the bottom of Manhattan and cabs it to the top of Brooklyn. What if your buddies all hang on the upper east or west and you have to schlep back to ENY CH or Bay Ridge?

So yes, cab fare is certainly a factor.

Posted by: TownhouseLady at May 11, 2009 12:27 PM

Yeah, Williamsburg rules with the taxi math but you will pay $2000 a month for your space there bwaahahaha! Also everyone move to the Dekalb stop on the L and you will get a seat every morning. If you're late to work like I am, I mean.

Northsloperenter, actually, I far prefer Brooklyn to Manhattan. However, it would be interesting if we lived close to a decent grocery store.

DIBS, bf sells used books online.

I Disagree, Stuvyvesant Town and the former socialist coops on the LES may be somewhat comparable in price and do-able for a family compared with Brooklyn. I know some families that live there. One friend of mine loves her daughter's public school. Of course those apartments lack charm.

I saw in the paper today a West Village townhouse for rent for $15,000. What is that to buy - $2 million?

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 12:31 PM

THL, dirty hipster is probably aghast to hear that some people have friends on the UES or UWS.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 12:34 PM

THL - it's just the mentality that from any two points in Manhattan is closer then any point in Manhattan to Brooklyn. Sure - my situation isn't the norm - but the cab fare from downtown to pretty much anywhere in Brownstone Brooklyn is comparable to the UES/UWS/Harlem.

I'm sure you've heard people say "well i may live in Harlem but at least it's still in Manhattan"

And if your buddies all hang out on the UES/UWS you may want to get new buddies.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 12:36 PM

"Yeah, Williamsburg rules with the taxi math but you will pay $2000 a month for your space there bwaahahaha"

There's deals to be had - anyone who is paying 2k for a railroad "2 bedroom" off Bedford is a sucker.

"THL, dirty hipster is probably aghast to hear that some people have friends on the UES or UWS."

I do have friends there - but they tend to hang out downtown, as the bars up there tend to be fratboyish.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 12:40 PM

Most of the folks I know who live in brooklyn, moved there because they were priced out of the city (i.e. manhattan). Price and space being equal, they would have all stayed. At this point, because they have all moved to Bkln and their friends all live there, it makes sense for them to stay (again, price and space being equal). But lets not kid oursleves that the allure of Manhattan is so much greater. I love walking around brownstone brooklyn - particularly at this time of year. Very peaceful - like a village in the city. But on a day-to-day basis, where work and travel and amenities becomes more important, I truly miss the convenience of the city. when i lived on the UWS, I had my choice of 5 subway lines to get me to work in 10-15 minutes. From the slope, it takes me 40-45 minutes. Thats an extra hour a day traveling that I lose every day. When i lived on the UWS, I had fairway, zabars and god knows how many other supermarkets, cleaners, etc within a few blocks of my apartment. Brooklyn..well, we all know. from the UWS, I could be in Central Park in a few minutes, Yankee stadium in 15 minutes (as I do love the Yanks!), and Penn Station in 15 minutes (I use amtrak often enough for work). So, yes, I love the charm and beauty of brownstone Brooklyn, but not a day goes by where the commute and lack of convenience doesnt have me wishing that I could afford a comparable pad on the UWS.

Posted by: saminthehood at May 11, 2009 12:41 PM

Just had to check in on Craigslist and see what's on the market right now (<$3k/mo, 2+ bedrooms, apts. for owner, manhattan/brooklyn).

Always hard to tell with craigslist, but this one caught my eye in brooklyn:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/abo/1165144182.html
$3000 / 2br - Brand New 2 Bedroom w/ Top-of-the-Line Finishes, Balcony, 2 Baths (PARKSLOPE-SOUTH -- 20th st. & 4th Ave -- 838 sq ft)

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/abo/1165152978.html
$2595 / 2br - 850 Sqft - Pvt deck - Brand new renovation - St Marks PL & 1 Ave (East Village)

Now, St. Marks and 1st is a very noisy spot and is absolutely not the neighborhood for everyone, but the price is right (and there is -- or at least use to be -- a great used book store on st. marks btwn 1st and A).

$3,000/mo for 20th/4th ave in PARKSLOPE-SOUTH? That's nutso.

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 12:46 PM

The main point is the Times have a whole page devoted to this movement back to Manhattan. Today there are plenty of people looking in the city again. Why pay premium money for crappy amenities when you can live in the city for a few bucks more. Remember the guy who brought a condo in midtown? I wonder if the collapse of the Mutant Asset Bubble has woken up the retards out of dreamland???

These days people want VALUE not HYPE for their money and if Manhattan gets cheaper then it's buh bye Brooklyn. The show is over and thanks for playing....

The What (But... But.. the Broker told me I can get 2000.00 a month for my Studio)

Someday (Very soon) this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 12:46 PM

"I had my choice of 5 subway lines to get me to work in 10-15 minutes. From the slope, it takes me 40-45 minutes. Thats an extra hour a day traveling that I lose every day. When i lived on the UWS, I had fairway, zabars and god knows how many other supermarkets, cleaners, etc within a few blocks of my apartment. Brooklyn..well, we all know. from the UWS, I could be in Central Park in a few minutes, Yankee stadium in 15 minutes (as I do love the Yanks!), and Penn Station in 15 minutes (I use amtrak often enough for work). So, yes, I love the charm and beauty of brownstone Brooklyn, but not a day goes by where the commute and lack of convenience doesnt have me wishing that I could afford a comparable pad on the UWS."

Yoo Hoo Retards! Over here! As per Craigslist.

1 Bedroom under 1700.00 per month listings!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/nfa/mnh?query=&minAsk=min&maxAsk=1700&bedrooms=1&neighborhood=139

May 11 - $1400 / 1br - All NEW ONE BEDS $1400-$1800 W/D-D/W - (Upper East Side) pic >> - (Upper East Side) img <<apts broker no fee

May 11 - $1495 / 1br - ****************************FREE RENT********************************* - (Upper East Side) img <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1695 / 2br - East 78th St! No Fee & SHOWING-Small but TRUE 2BED**RENOVATED!! - (Upper East Side) pic <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1255 / 1br - Beautifully renovated 1Br Apt. 105th Street/2nd Avenue - (Upper East Side) pic <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1525 / 1br - 1 Month Free - Large 1 bedroom -750sq-elevator-laundry-renovated - (Upper East Side) pic <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1600 / 1br - ►►YOUTUBE VIDEO WALK-THRU: Studio w/PRIVATE BACKYARD ! - (Upper East Side) img <<apts broker no fee

May 11 - $1395 / 1br - ** Cozy * Affordable * 1 Bed * Open House * 73rd& 3rd - (Upper East Side) img <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1550 / 1br - 81st/2nd**Real 1 bedroom**Totally Renovated - (Upper East Side) <<apts by owner

May 11 - $1550 / 1br - 85th. St. Off Lexington Ave. Alcove Studio, Junior One bedroom - (Upper East Side) pic <<apts broker no fee

May 11 - $1675 / 1br - (NO FEE) *** Amazing Deal *** // 1 Bed -- Renovated // E 75th St. - (Upper East Side) img <<apts broker no fee

May 11 - $1650 / 1br - 650ft² - No fee! 1BR priced as studio! Fully renov. Sep fully equip ktchn, A/C, 84th 2/3 - (Upper East Side) img <<apts broker no fee

And guess what????????!!! No Broker fee!!!! The owner will pay the Broker!!!!!

The What (It's so fucking over!!!!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 12:51 PM

Is that a list of what people will pay me monthly to live on the UES?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 12:55 PM

Best RE article I've read in a long time!!!!
Please go (back) to Manhattan and take your trendy-hype-cool-overpriced bars / restaurants / boutiques with you.

Brooklyn will be quieter and more friendly for it! :)

Posted by: qis4quincy at May 11, 2009 12:58 PM

"Is that a list of what people will pay me monthly to live on the UES?"

hahaha! All snobbery aside - I could move to the Upper West Side, Hells Kitchen or a few other Manhattan neighborhoods and make the best of my time there - but not the UES, never ever again. It really has nothing going for it. Crappy transportation, no culture, terrible dining/drinking options (unless you can afford to dine at Daniel every night) Yeah okay - you're close to Central Park.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 12:59 PM

Mopar - what books?

Posted by: Arkady at May 11, 2009 1:00 PM

I noticed and commented on the falling manhattan rental prices a few weeks ago, and what a bummer that now everyone else is going to be jumping on the bandwagon!
I've been priced out of the city since college. If I can find a decently sized 2 bedroom for under $2100, I'm definitely moving back no questions asked.

Like northsloperenter mentioned, the commute time really eats into the quality and amount of time you get to spend with your kids in the evening before they have to go to bed- especially if they are young kids going to bed at 8pm. I'd love to have a 5-10 min commute instead of the 40+ minutes I currently deal with. That extra bit of time would mean I might actually get to eat with my family instead of heating something up when I get home.

Everyone's got different needs, I guess. For me, time > space.

Posted by: ennuiater at May 11, 2009 1:11 PM

Northslope: what you write below is completely understandable...

"But, the choice is between an apartment in Brooklyn with a long commute or a slightly smaller apartment in Manhattan with a shorter commute. Shorter commute = more time. And I have never in my life felt so in need of time as I do now."

I would think though that you have more of a chance of escaping apartment-dom in Brooklyn and having some outdoor space in Brooklyn.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 1:14 PM

Because the Upper East Side is so uncool and so unhip, that is exactly where I would choose to live in Manhattan.

Posted by: Suburbandude at May 11, 2009 1:14 PM

Arkady -- any book he can buy low, sell high. Many are academic and technical, the more obscure the better. They are all fairly recent. No first editions of Catcher in the Rye or anything. We have the most ridiculous titles scattered around our apartment. Things like "How to Set up an Office in Japan," "Hat Making for Dolls," and "Rendering: An Overview of the Fat Processing Industry."

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 1:19 PM

Dirty Hipster - couldnt agree with you more. Though, take the Craigslist listing with a grain of salt. Most of those listings are for pieces of crap, the other half are bait and switch. The UES though is cheaper than most hoods in the city below 96th street (for obvious reason - it sucks!)

Posted by: saminthehood at May 11, 2009 1:21 PM

I hear ya DH.

I'm pondering HK myself, though most of my friends live in Brooklyn now.

Still, walking to work would be sweet.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 1:21 PM

HK? Hong Kong?

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 1:24 PM

"irty Hipster - couldnt agree with you more. Though, take the Craigslist listing with a grain of salt. Most of those listings are for pieces of crap, the other half are bait and switch. The UES though is cheaper than most hoods in the city below 96th street (for obvious reason - it sucks!)"

Really???? Or maybe to justify you insanity for Brooklyn! The listings in Manhattan are REAL!!!! Just spoke to a Broker friend of mine and it's getting good in the city. The sweet thing about this is your living on the Ghetto and trying to live a Manhattan lifestyle. You complain about the amenities in the"Hood" but overpay for the neighborhood and now with the proof of a collapsing Mutant Asset Bubble is now "I would not live in Manhattan because.." Bullshit!

You guys are a bunch of fucking Posers! Faux-Snob Midwestern Trash In-Bred Losers!

The What (Yeah Right)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 1:31 PM

"You guys are a bunch of fucking Posers! Faux-Snob Midwestern Trash In-Bred Losers!"

Haha - I <3 The What

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 1:33 PM

can someone please give what a shot of Haldol already?

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at May 11, 2009 1:33 PM

(haven't read this thread but want to put in my $.02 on the subject)

I voted yes. I love Brooklyn and all, but it's not some kind of fetish or a substitute for personality.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 1:33 PM

> "HK? Hong Kong?"

Hell's Kitchen. I'm hoping for a HEIK.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 1:38 PM

Hell's Kitchen is really cool - Love 9th Avenue - I just find the cheaper places to be really tiny and rundown. I don't care how cheap manhattan gets - there is no price one can put on a rat/roach free apt.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 1:42 PM

"Haha - I <3 The What"

Why don't you go and wash your clothes. Oh I'm sorry your roommate has them on.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 1:43 PM

"Why don't you go and wash your clothes. Oh I'm sorry your roommate has them on."

sprayed down the AA deep V with frebreeze this morning - does that count?

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 1:52 PM

mopar & nsr: no doubt there are some good deals out there in manhattan, but they just seem harder to find and to require a *lot* of tradeoffs in terms of neighborhood and community and, yes, "charm," for a marginal savings in commute times. the two areas you mentioned are good examples - not necessarily faster (or better) commutes for most people, not a lot of charm or quiet, not great access to central park/museums, etc. i agree that south slope is an insane price, though.

to each his own, of course.

Posted by: i disagree at May 11, 2009 2:00 PM

QUOTE: "but not the UES, never ever again.... no culture,"

Excellen point! Outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Frick Collection, the Guggenheim, Asia Society, the Whitney, the Kaye Playhouse, the Museum of the City of New York, the National Academy of Design, and maybe a few others, there's really no culture there to speak of.

Posted by: Sparafucile at May 11, 2009 2:01 PM

"I would think though that you have more of a chance of escaping apartment-dom in Brooklyn and having some outdoor space in Brooklyn."

wasder -- true -- and if we found a nice rental with private access to the backyard, that could definitely tip the scales back toward Brooklyn. We looked at one in 2007 and almost took it -- but it was $2900/mo for a place btwn 4th and 5th Ave that was probably 750 sq. ft. (not incl. backyard). Just wasn't a good value ($2300/mo seemed about right to me).

And when the time comes to buy, I think it will be in Brooklyn. But we cannot afford to buy a home and pay for daycare (which apparently costs more than a 1 bedroom on the upper west side...), so I think we have to wait til the kid is ready for public school before buying. And we cannot risk buying a place in this economy when it is possible I or my wife could get laid off.

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 2:04 PM

"Faux-Snob"

Heh, heh..never heard that one before.

Posted by: East New York at May 11, 2009 2:08 PM

Northslope--yeah I hear you on all fronts. We rent our garden apt out in Clinton Hill for 1700. We share the back yard with the tenants, whom we like very much so it works. Its an 800 sq foot floor through and feels like a pretty fair price. Good luck with whatever you decide though. I can totally understand that a shorter commute means more time with kids.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 2:10 PM

sparafucile: Hilarious (and true) response. But don't forget that the UES lacks skinny jeans, chuck taylors, those stupid straw hats hipsters wear these days, or a false sense of toughness appropriated from people who have long since been pushed to other neighborhoods.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 2:10 PM

Brownstoner:

Came into town last Friday for a foundation's board meeting.

Very senior investment banker told us the following:

"We have no idea if what happened during the Great Depression is happening today. There was the crash in '29 then a rally very similar to the one now that lasted until '32, when everything went off the cliff. We can only hope that's not the case, but there's no real way of knowing."

I had family living in the city back then. They were so broke they'd break their leases every few months and run from borough to borough in pursuit of ever cheaper rents.

The differences among Brooklyn, Manhattan and the Bronx? Meaningless, when you're down to your last dime.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: NOP at May 11, 2009 2:10 PM

NOP: I would wager a substantial sum that we will not see a repeat of 1932. In fact, I have.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 2:15 PM

> Frick collection $15
> Guggenheim $18
> Asia Society $10
> The Whitney $15
> Kaye - couldn't find a price but I doubt this is free
etc etc - you get the point

Okay - so you move to the UES - spend 30 minutes trying to get on the 4/5/6 every morning and have to pay to get into almost anywhere with "culture"

I'm talking about everyday culture you experience from being around different people from all walks of life. Yes, I lived on the UES and the vast majority of the people would rather go to Brother Jimmy's and watch college football and eat wings then go to any of the aforementioned placed.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 2:16 PM

Just a funny note
we now have to rent our 2br apt in our bldg - $2800 in Park Slope for June
I posted the ad on craiglist at 12pm - I received 3 emails and 5 phone callsabout the apartment and it's only 2:15pm - 4 people are coming tomorrow to see it

Obviously people want to stay in Brooklyn- huh guys?

Posted by: gemini10 at May 11, 2009 2:17 PM

Lechacal--glad to hear you say that. What are your reasons for feeling that we won't see 1932 redux?

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 2:18 PM

Posted by: Sparafucile at May 11, 2009 2:01 PM

Thank you, Thank you!!!! That was a slam and look at the fucking insanity that goes on around here!

"Okay - so you move to the UES - spend 30 minutes trying to get on the 4/5/6 every morning and have to pay to get into almost anywhere with "culture"

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 2:16 PM"

See what I mean?! Sheer stupidity!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 2:20 PM

DH: "Everyday culture?" I love a lot of things about Brooklyn, particularly Park Slope where I live, I don't actually consider it to provide much culture. Do a bunch of drones who all think and dress alike and have no sense of originality or intelligent though (ie hipsters) constitute "culture" as you define it? I actually find the people I meet in Brooklyn to be quite uniform.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 2:20 PM

as a 24 year old the problem with the UES is that the bars are horrible. They arnt horrible in a "oh cool this bar is filled with smelling old guys and the pool table is fucked up" kinda way. They're horrible in the "Everyone here is wearing polo shirts and boat shoes and Katy Perry is playing". To me this is a deal breaker.

Other than that the area isnt that bad and east east yorkville in the 90's is nice and has some cool places to eat (like that awesome fried chicken place). However the 4/5 sucks and the walk sucks.

Posted by: Santa at May 11, 2009 2:21 PM

Yes, I know.

Same bank meltdown. One big difference is we have FDIC insurance and the government has been giving the banks lots of money.

But it could be that very program of giving the banks lots of money that could lead to another crash.

Who knows.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 2:23 PM

I would never live on the UES, but that's because of the commute and the lack of youthful energy. But the claim that there is no culture, when "culture" to the author clearly is synonymous with "hipster drinking scene", is just beyond ridiculous.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 2:24 PM

Did I say anything about "hipster drinking scene" ?

and if you think culture is spending 20 bucks to go to a museum then fine - the UES has culture.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 2:27 PM

hi wasder - big topic and I could spend a long time responding, but I guess I would boil it down to the following: The highs and lows of the business cycle soften as modern capitalism matures. There is obviously a lot behind that statement.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 2:27 PM

"Obviously people want to stay in Brooklyn- huh guys?"

A lot of people do.

For some of us, it isn't such a charged issue as others make it. I don't see this as GRUDGEMATCH 2009!!! BKLYN v. The Isle of Manattan!!!

In a few months, I'll be checking Craigslist every morning. And if I see a $2800 2 br in park slope, I might just check it out. But if there is also a $2700 2 br in a part of Manhattan I like, I'll be checking that out too.

I do think the Brooklyn market is less efficient than the Manhattan market and what we are seeing right now is Manhattan is re-pricing faster than Brooklyn is and may overshoot further to the downside than Brooklyn will.

If the Manhattan market bottoms over the summer, Brooklyn probably won't go down too sharply. But if Manhattan keeps going down, Brooklyn prices will accelerate downward.

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 2:27 PM

I used to live on the UES and hardly ever had a problem getting the 4 /5 to midtown in the morning. Trains were very frequent.

Posted by: etson at May 11, 2009 2:27 PM

NSP
sorry - that wasn't my intention
I was just adding there are people out there still looking to pay a premium for a nice generous apt in a great nabe

Posted by: gemini10 at May 11, 2009 2:40 PM

like it or not Hipster "Culture" is culture.

also the size and scope of what people claim to be a "hipster" is so broad its confusing. Alot of people who use the term dont understand the size and scope of it.

Posted by: Santa at May 11, 2009 2:43 PM

By the way, most museums have a free night. And it's pay-as-you-wish at the Met.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at May 11, 2009 2:59 PM

Feel free to disagree with me if you want - and my choice of using the word "culture" may not have been appropriate. I've lived all over Manhattan and Brooklyn and the UES is the only place I can look back and say I absolutely couldn't stand - I know some like it, and many others agree with me. So when the What points to cheap rents on Craigslist for the UES and uses it as a barometer for an upcoming mass exodus from Brooklyn - I just don't agree.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 3:03 PM

Lechecal, you're scaring me on several fronts.

First of all, there are no hipsters in Park Slope.

Second, "The highs and lows of the business cycle soften as modern capitalism matures" -- not in Argentina, not in the Soviet Union, and this time our economic crisis went global in a matter of days, thanks to the modernity you mention.

Couldn't you come up with something more convincing? I need some reassurance.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 3:04 PM

> "And if I see a $2800 2 br in park slope, I might just check it out."

Ah, I was wondering who was willing to pay those silly prices.

Get off Craigslist and check out the realtor windows.

You'll get a much better deal.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 3:04 PM

"also the size and scope of what people claim to be a "hipster" is so broad its confusing. Alot of people who use the term dont understand the size and scope of it."

Here let me help you stupid!

A Hipster is a Douchdag, Mommy and Daddy living in The Ghetto Neighborhood Hi-Jacking Smelly Herpes Carrying, Unemployed, Neighborhood claiming, Midwestern, In-Bred, One Wrong Turn Looking, Drinking all night, Coffee shop Huging, Trashy Mother Fucker.

I think it sums it up.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end

Posted by: Return of The What at May 11, 2009 3:05 PM

I don't know d_h, What may be on to something.

It seems lately that the newest addition to Park Slope are the same fratty types you usually find in the UES.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 3:06 PM

Damn - say it ain't so Snark!

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 3:09 PM

mopar: Would it help if I said modern *American* capitalism?

I would venture to guess we stand on opposite ends of the opinion spectrum when it comes to the "globalization" debate (not that most people who go to anti-globalization rallies can define the term intelligently, but I digress). As long as you aren't one of these liberal American Chavez supporters, we can probably find some common ground (my travel schedule over the next 10 days includes four major cities in South America, including Caracas, and without describing any more I think I can say I have plenty of street cred on this issue).

DH: I think we can bury the hatchet if you just say the night life sucks on the UES, which it does.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 3:12 PM

lech - deal.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 3:13 PM

and mopar - w/r/t the speed and severity of the current "crisis", look up some of the banking panics of the 19th and early 20th century. What is happening now is much less severe than the early cycles.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 3:20 PM

Lech, I wasn't making a statement for or against globalization. Just noting that banks and economies are closely connected worldwide, not only because of business relationships but also because of modern communications technology.

Though it would be nice if we could get our imports up. I'd like to start with Steven Alan shirts.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 3:21 PM

EEEK -- I meant EXPORTS. Typo.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 3:22 PM

"Ah, I was wondering who was willing to pay those silly prices.

Get off Craigslist and check out the realtor windows."

Oh, I'll look at the realtor windows, (and add $250-$350 per month to the price to cover the fee) and I'll look at Craigslist. And if Brownstoner gets a classified section, I'll look at that too.

But I'm not looking for the absolute cheapest place I can possibly find. I'm past that part of my life.

I have a price range that I'm looking in and I want good value in that range. If I go to look at a $2800/mo apt. in park slope, I will be expecting to see something very nice.

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 3:25 PM

120 comments since 9 am?

I missed this whole debate, thank god.

WHO THE F CARES?????? REALLY?????

Live where you wanna live. Jesus.

Posted by: iz at May 11, 2009 3:30 PM

iz,

You can always go read Curbed if you don't like seeing comments.

nsr

Posted by: northsloperenter at May 11, 2009 3:41 PM

"Alot of people who use the term dont understand the size and scope of it."

OK, now that we've read the What's definition....care to provide one of your own, Santa? Enlighten us, if you would.

Posted by: East New York at May 11, 2009 3:53 PM

Quite a number of desperation type posts defending the Brooklyn market. All in vain. Oh and of course, yet another piece of evidence that shows just how stupid Dibs really is. For months, hes been shouting out that Brooklyn will hold because Manhattanites will be MOVING INTO Brooklyn. LOL what a friggn' idiot!!!!!

Posted by: cornerbodega at May 11, 2009 4:09 PM

> "First of all, there are no hipsters in Park Slope."

Are you kidding me? South Slope is all hipsters, all the time. Our own little slice of Williamsburg, vinyl-clad shacks and all.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 4:15 PM

Hipsters today are the yuppies of the 80s.

you used to be able to pick them out by their outrageous ways of dressing - but hipster fashion has become so mainstream that the "hipster" you saw this weekend could very well be an investment banker from Murray Hill who spent $300 bucks on his skinny jeans and 200 bucks on his t-shirt at Oak.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 4:25 PM

nsr, I love comments! In fact, one of my recent comments was defending comments and commenters and passion and thought and insight!

None of which is warranted by this silly topic. NYTimes really has no good editors anymore.

Posted by: iz at May 11, 2009 4:26 PM

ENY,

There is no definition. People just make up their own definition for a term thats used to describe a huge cross section of people in the 20's and maybe 30's.

theres the "smelly doesnt wash wears flannel hipster"

theres the "wears alot of neon and eats vegan shit hipster"

theres the "wears black thinks they live in 1960 and likes to listen to charles mingus hipster"

theres the "guy who dress like hes in Canned Heat Hipster"

theres the "well dress small suit might read alot of Proust hipster"

these people are all very different but would all be called a hipster by someone. Its not that simple

Posted by: Santa at May 11, 2009 4:33 PM

I see cornerbodega didn't get anything this weekend.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 11, 2009 4:35 PM

Iz, what are you talking about? I thought this story was on of NYT most accurate, of the moment, and amusing stories yet.

Hipster is now used by non-hipsters to mean yuppies. But that's not really what it started out as.

I would say it's anyone whose favorite genre of music is indie rock (or whatever you want to call it). Oh and a lot of hipsters will tell you "I listen to everything." But that only as true as Other Music stocks "everything."

But perhaps Dirty Hipster will tell me that's no longer true.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 4:47 PM

Santa: a unifying theme with all of them is that they think their style of dress reflects some kind of originality, when really they are safely ensconced in a pretty uniform subculture (not that it's even a "sub"culture in Brooklyn, but whatever). They are hiving themselves off from what they view as the mainstream but stopping far short of thinking for themselves or doing something original (other than the decision to step over to the hipster group in the first place, which takes 5 seconds and an IQ of 75). Kind of like goths. or punks. or metalheads. or harley people. etc etc etc.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 4:49 PM

Did anyone ever see the hilarious video where a guy went around Williamsburg asking everyone "What is a hipster?" No one could answer the question and no one would admit to being one.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 4:50 PM

mopar - yes I have, and it was hilarious.

Posted by: lechacal at May 11, 2009 4:55 PM

"But perhaps Dirty Hipster will tell me that's no longer true."

Oh god - i have no idea anymore. I just know i've chit-chatted with people in the neighborhood who i thought were hipsters and they turned out to be something totally opposite then what I expected, and talked to people who looked normal who were incredibly "hipsterish" So it's really hard to put a label on anyone anymore - because as far as I'm concerned there's a whole lot of people running around brooklyn and manhattan who are dressing really funny.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 5:05 PM

For those who may not have seen it, Ladies and Gentlemen, Snarky brings you "The Hipster Olympics."

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAO4EVMlpwM

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 11, 2009 5:09 PM

haha i've seen that one Snark - pretty damn funny.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 5:11 PM

lechacal,

you completely miss the point. People dress a certain way to put themselves into a certain group and remove themselves from others. People dont wear Bananna Republic and Izod because they find it to be completely retarded. No one is claiming any originality and never have I heard a "hipster" claim to have an original sense of style (that is unless this hipster some how thinks of themselves as some kind of clothes designer). Anyone who isnt a socialy akward crazy person is going to want to be accepted by a certain group and not accepted by others.

to think you somehow remove yourself from this is silly. You wear what you wear, listen to what you listen to and read what you read because you want to express a certain image. Like it or not.

now just like with anything else there are people who are completely crazy and think that they're gods gift to the world.

Posted by: Santa at May 11, 2009 5:11 PM

"I just know i've chit-chatted with people in the neighborhood who i thought were hipsters and they turned out to be something totally opposite then what I expected, and talked to people who looked normal who were incredibly "hipsterish"

Ah! That's a whole other thing...

I have been shocked lately to discover that certain young people (who I do think of as hipsters) listen to exactly the same music I do. I would think that the world would have moved on, I mean really.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 5:15 PM

Mopar: do you have a link for that?

Snark: so ironic it's not, so unironic it is.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at May 11, 2009 5:16 PM

I think lechecal is pretty spot on in describing the "first generation hipsters" the ones who were in williamsburg first and are now 40+ and still go to the same old bars and make fun of all the "new hipsters"

Ah - analyzing hipsters is always a good way to end the day.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 5:23 PM

Sixyears, you used to be able to find it by googling "T Bird What is Up with the Hipsters" but sadly the video is no longer on line.

Posted by: mopar at May 11, 2009 5:30 PM

I went to the Bell whatever bar in Gowanus this weekend. HIPSTER CENTRAL! It was ridiculous, in a good way. I think the problem is you can create the style easily (weird glasses, bad haircut, salvation army cloths, don't rinse, repeat.) It is kind of sad. You can see in many of their faces that they were the picked on kid at school who needed to say (f you, I want to be different.)

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 11, 2009 5:47 PM

"You can see in many of their faces that they were the picked on kid at school who needed to say (f you, I want to be different.)"

Exactly - that's the impression I always get. They were the ones that didn't fit in in highschool, so they just made their own little group in the real world.

Posted by: dirty_hipster at May 11, 2009 6:01 PM

Actually, I think that the point is that now it is often the people who WERE popular in high school and were NOT picked on that amke up the bulk of the hipster population in Billyburg and the LES, etc.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at May 11, 2009 6:17 PM

Aw man! How long have I been saying THIS? I've been so spot on it's f***ing scary. When the question pops (bubble? contagion? recession? flight back to Manhattan?), it's a done f***ing deal. And the poll above applies to only 5% of you. It is the upper echelon of Brooklynites who can afford to choose (I'm talking Manhattan brownstones as purchases) and thus create a massive value void and settlement in BK price.

Park Slope/Carrol Gardens/Brooklyn Heights?

Upper West Side Manhattan?!

Hmmmm....

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at May 11, 2009 6:22 PM

Park Slope/Carrol Gardens/Brooklyn Heights?

Upper West Side Manhattan?!

Would take any of those over the UWS personally.

Posted by: wasder at May 11, 2009 6:45 PM

"Actually, I think that the point is that now it is often the people who WERE popular in high school and were NOT picked on that amke up the bulk of the hipster population in Billyburg and the LES, etc.

this is why many hipsters suck.

Posted by: Santa at May 11, 2009 8:39 PM

I don't see the what the big deal is with this "Loyalty" nonsense: If you have lived in/moved to Brooklyn because you couldn't afford/got priced out of Manhattan, then go back the the first chance you get and don't apologize for it, especially if you're a renter (Brookly landlords don't give your love of the borough any consideration when they raise your rent) so do what's best for you. If you live in Brooklyn because you love Brooklyn, then I assume you'll be here regardless.

Posted by: Crownlfc at May 12, 2009 3:13 AM

Crownlfc: that's exactly what I think about this whole banal excuse for a subject (nytimes running out of ideas almost as fast as they're running out of money).

Where people say they like to live makes no difference on the neighborhood. The best neighborhoods are often those where people have to live, for whatever reason, with no expectations and no requirements, and they make it the best place they can with what they've got. Those areas are sincere, authentic, charming for the modesty and hard work of the people who "end up" there. All this shuttling back and forth over the bridge is like the H&M of housing for the ADD generation -- no real style, no real roots, just a constant search for the next cool thing with the least amount of commitment.

Screw 'em all. If you can't fall in love with your neighborhood to the point where you want to make long term commitments to community organizations or neighbors or small businesses, then PLEASE DO US A FAVOR and keep reading these trashy rags and keep shuffling around like the brainless energizer bunny you are. We can see you a mile a way and we'll just step aside as you ram your head into the next new thing.

Posted by: iz at May 12, 2009 8:38 AM

"The highs and lows of the business cycle soften as modern capitalism matures." - lechacal

This time is different? Never. Classic head fake.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at May 12, 2009 2:32 PM

"All this shuttling back and forth over the bridge is like the H&M of housing for the ADD generation -- no real style, no real roots, just a constant search for the next cool thing with the least amount of commitment."

BHO Amen Brother, Amen!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 8:32 PM

I mean Amen iz, Amen. Man What take the meds!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 8:34 PM

The What, I think we just shut this sucker of a subject down! Makes my day.

Posted by: iz at May 13, 2009 9:37 AM

Wow. That's a lot of comments and I'm way late to the party, but I have to jump in.

I'm Andrew Baisley, the "cheerleader for Brooklyn" and I agree with most of the comments here, but not all of them.

I've been in Brooklyn since 2002 (for the most part; I was in Astoria for a year). Most of that time was in Bay Ridge. Believe me, I loved living in Brooklyn and I still love visiting Brooklyn often.

No, I'm not a life long resident, but I'm also no hipster. As many of you guessed I'm a young professional without a family, so moving for the convenience factor is an easy decision for me.

I do have a sink in my bathroom (quite a nice one, actually). When I moved I upgraded to a nicer building, what I consider to be a better (and quieter) neighborhood, a newer apartment and an apartment with a large private outdoor space. It also happens to be an 8 to 11 minute commute to my office from the new apartment. I often bike there.

Would I raise my family here? Probably not unless I had a lot more money to blow. Would I raise my family in Brooklyn? You bet I would - and I plan to.

I'll be back. But, for now, I'm a 20-something single guy, making decent money with a killer apartment in one of Manhattan's most happening neighborhoods. For me it was a no-brainer. Did I mention I was single?

Andrew

Posted by: abaisley at May 28, 2009 11:41 PM

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May 11, 2009

Brooklynites Jumping Ship to Manhattan?

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