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May 12, 2009

53 Lincoln Condos Hit the Market

A new glassy addition to the brownstone block of Lincoln Place between 5th and 6th Avenues in Park Slope just hit the market this week. The modern building has four apartments—three floor-throughs and one duplex—ranging in price from $995,000 to $1,950,000. (It looks like Aguayo & Huebener is sharing the broker duties with Sotheby's.) It'll be interesting to see what the appetite is for spaces in this area that are priced at ~~almost $1,000~~ between $800 and $900 a foot. What do you think?
53 Lincoln Place [StreetEasy] GMAP

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Almost $1000 per foot??!!
Ha! Good luck! They look very nice, but not that nice.

Posted by: PHfamily at May 12, 2009 10:05 AM

FYI - This is the condo project that was featured on DIY's Under Construction show.

Posted by: NewYawker at May 12, 2009 10:05 AM

$700/sf tops.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 12, 2009 10:11 AM

"A new glassy addition to the brownstone block of Lincoln Place between 5th and 6th Avenues in Park Slope just hit the market this week. The modern building has four apartments—three floor-throughs and one duplex—ranging in price from $995,000 to $1,950,000. "

This is the canary in the coal mine! All the new Condo construction coming online and putting pressure on current prices. BTW you better pray that the holding corporation does not go bankrupt because the trustees will liquidate them at any price and that will be your "new comp". If I own a Condo right now, I would be s***ing in my pants now. Just look at downtown Brooklyn, game over dumbasses...

The What (Brownstoner where is the price widget at, LMMFAO!)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 10:12 AM

A neighbor of mine looked at it & thought the penthouse was a good deal. (I think someone last week on the Forum asked about being across from the school playground - it's a busy place & the apartments all have solid glass fronts...)

Posted by: Arkady at May 12, 2009 10:13 AM

Oh BTW I think that's the old "Sneaker Circus" building. Over 30 years ago (Damn I'm old) they used to sell sneaker at discounted prices.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 10:16 AM

I have been watching this place go up for a while now. Absolutely no way in hell is it worth anything near those prices. Right across from 282 and its very noisy playground, and staring at the ugly (windowless?) facade of the school. The block lacks shade and character.

Location aside, I have no idea what these places look like on the inside (though I can tell you construction was cinderblock after staring at the shell from the playground so many times).

Just one block up and you have a fabulous block with the old whorehouses for sale, in a more aesthetically pleasing building (to me anyway) at what I think are more modest prices. This place would have made sense for someone who is desperate to buy into a bubble with no inventory, but now there are lots of choices, and some of those choices are in much better locations.

It will be interesting to watch this place go head-to-head wiht the old whorehouse. I just can't see why any of these places would even sell while there is anything still available in the whorehouse, but we'll see.

Also a small condo project with huge risks for buyers in a down market.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 10:20 AM

OK, maybe the facade of 282 isn't windowless (obviously, just look at the listing pics). It's the ground floor as you walk past on the sidewalk that I think is windowless.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 10:21 AM

It looks nicely done. If the prices were 650-700 psf, they would be a decent deal. The charges are low, the finishes look nice.

Posted by: Maly at May 12, 2009 10:21 AM

I own a condo in Park Slope, and folks are still getting $800/sf. These Lincoln condos have a higher grade finish than mine,and have nice features like radiant heating and web-based home controls.

I see them easily obtaining $800/sf.

One aspect of the condo market that Mr. B has not really touched much is brownstone conversions in Park Slope. On Carroll St. between 5th and 6th two brownstones were converted to floor-through condos similiar in price and quality to these Lincoln condos. They have sold out. More recently, another brownstone directly across the street from St. Francis Xavier church on 6th Ave was converted to high-end condos, and they also sold out.

Posted by: benson at May 12, 2009 10:24 AM

It's not the sneaker facotry - that's the brick building up from this one & it's been occupied for years. This used to be a cute little frame house. My neighbor said the finish details are very good - unlike, for instance, the Lincoln Pl. whore house reno.

Posted by: Arkady at May 12, 2009 10:24 AM

No indication as to what the taxes are. Beware.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 12, 2009 10:26 AM

I have to agree about the whorehouse front. That school would be the dealbreaker for me. I also watched it being build and they did put care into the building. I think the top floor would be nice and you would have a great view of the Slope and the Park, but its SOOOOO pricey. For that you can have a doorman building nearer to the park and the 2/3.

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 12, 2009 10:26 AM

"It's not the sneaker facotry - that's the brick building up from this one & it's been occupied for years. "

Right right! Now I remember.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 10:28 AM

benson: I thought people in your building were pulling their listings because they couldn't get these prices. I would be surprised if that changed in the past two weeks. I have been watching the PS condo market closely and strongly disagree with your assessment of the market. There is significant downward pressure on prices and inventory for the most part is stagnant. Brokers are practically begging for offers. In fact, I think brownstone conversions in particular are having a difficult time selling because small condos are so difficult to finance and no one wants to be the "first mover" who takes the risk of the developer going belly up (buying first in this market is a terrible financial move imho).

By the time we bottom I think $700 psf will represent the top of the market for good properties on good blocks. This property is in a pretty mediocre location.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 10:31 AM

Here is a good exercise: zoom in on the gmap at the top of the thread and compare the tree cover on this block to the tree cover on Lincoln b/w 6th and 7th. Huge difference, and one that isn't going to change any time soon. This is just a mediocre block in an otherwise great area.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 10:35 AM

Lechacal;

Our units are about 1300 sf, and fetched $1.05M in the fall of 2007. That was the peak price. The last unit that sold was in January 2009, and it sold for $1.03M. This is what I have reported. The condo I live in is City View Gardens, and these sales are a matter of public record.

What I have also written is the following:

-one of my neighbors recently listed their unit at the delusional price of $1.2M. She has now returned back to earth, and the unit is listed for $1.05M (you can see it on BHS' website). Traffic has hence increased at her open houses.

-it is true that the market is slow, and a couple of folks have pulled their units off the market. However, this lack of inventory seems to have firmed the pricing, as I report above.

Posted by: benson at May 12, 2009 10:39 AM

I heard that banks were not lending as freely as for condo/coops that were small (such as under five units). One would need buckets of cash to purchase these.

Posted by: DeLepp at May 12, 2009 10:39 AM

im pretty sure this was built by the "under construction" TV SHOW guys, designtech of brooklyn.

53 Lincoln is listed
http://www.designtechconstructionny.com/gallery.asp

DIY Network
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/shows_dunc/

Posted by: luzer at May 12, 2009 10:45 AM

"I heard that banks were not lending as freely as for condo/coops that were small (such as under five units). One would need buckets of cash to purchase these."

30% Down and six months of PITI in the bank (Must be seasoned).

300k down 700,000 financed.

Result:
Monthly payment: 30 Years
Interest rate: 5.750%
Loan amount: 700,000.00

$ 4,085.01 a month plus maintenance and you are looking at 4600 per month!

64,000 question! What would it rent for????????!!!!!!!!!! 2500.00 per month??? And please not with the mortgage deduction BS!!!!

The What (Case closed)

Someday this insanity is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 10:46 AM

To put things in perspective, I paid $320 psf for a fully renovated building on Stuyvesant Ave.

I did more work but not work that was "necessary" bringing the cost up to about $375 psf...new gigantic master bath and higher end second bath, deck, yard & the facade restoration.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 12, 2009 10:48 AM

here is the old building
http://www.designtechconstructionny.com/gallery-showimagelarge-aspsmart-nodb.asp?id=71.jpg

Posted by: luzer at May 12, 2009 10:48 AM

benson: duly noted, thanks for the clarification.

I just can't see these places selling for anything close to ask. Just ain't gonna happen. As is, empty, in this market, in a mediocre location.... nfw. If I'm wrong about this one I guess it will be time to hang up my spurs and start looking at another market, because I just won't buy into a market that I don't understand. I am pretty damn familiar with the PS condo market at this point and this developer either didn't get the memo or refused to believe it. Buying one of these places is a good way to flush all of your savings down the toilet.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 10:54 AM

benson: I would also repeat my view that your neighbors who have pulled their listings may regret not selling at whatever price they could get during this spring selling season. I am pretty familiar with these listings and consider them to be in the circa $850k to $900k value range on a forward looking basis.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 11:04 AM

Do you guys (What include, with hesitation) think brownstones between 6-7 on Lincoln will fall much more than what they trade for now? I will be in the market for one of these babies in the next 2-3 years, but would rather just rent if I don't think it makes sense to buy and then just get a really nice place upstate with tons of land. Thoughts, probably not the thread for this but whatever, you'll all forgive me.

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 12, 2009 11:05 AM

Prices have come down slightly on the block - I live there. But bear in mind what happened 25 years ago. My neighbors bought before me for $165,000. I bought for $265,000. 5 years later next door sold for something astronomical (I'm not good w/ numbers but at least $375,000) & a year after that went for about 100 grand less. The market can change radically very quickly.

Posted by: Arkady at May 12, 2009 11:10 AM

Yes, I think prices there will come down less than most places, but think there are more declines to come in the market as a whole. I am another potential buyer that is going slow. Happy renting for now as I am still making my mind up about what I want. Better to hold back and see where things settle than to rush and make a costly mistake.

On this building - like the building, like the location, prices seem insane.

Posted by: etson at May 12, 2009 11:13 AM

Despite the "trend" reported by the NY Times that people are returning to Manhattan to take advantage of falling prices there (rentals first and presumably the trend will eventually hit sales as well), the target market the developers of these new condos must be targeting are people who wanted a condo loft in Soho but can't afford that type of real estate. This is the only reason I can come with that a) developers continue to churn out these ugly over-windowed condos that stick out like a sore thumb in what was until their arrival beautiful blocks and b) think that they can charge jut below Manhattan type prices per square foot for these Soho-like condos. As the person who wanted but was until now unable to afford the Manhattan condo on the island begins to realize that prices are dropping there, they won't want the Manhattan-type condo in Park Slope. Pity the developers then because no one who moved to PS for the charm of the neighborhood is going to want to move into these apartments (certainly not at these prices anyway).

Posted by: bkhabitant at May 12, 2009 11:15 AM

Weve watched the entire Under Construction series and saw the process of them putting up the building, and we constantly wondering out loud (1) how out of place the building seemed; (2) who did they consult with for the layout and design features - cause they seemed pretty personal and subjective; and (3)how much they would charge for the units - we never in a million years imagined they would ask this much. Considering that Design tech's business has slowed, they will probably need to sell these to keep afloat - which gives the buyers the edge.

Posted by: saminthehood at May 12, 2009 11:16 AM

saminthehood, amen.

Posted by: bkhabitant at May 12, 2009 11:19 AM

The best part was them going out to pennsylvania for "the best" natural stone to put up around the backyard built-in BBQ. They would always comment how the Lincoln Place project was bleeding them dry.

Posted by: saminthehood at May 12, 2009 11:26 AM

Yeah, I mean frankly my next home, if a purchase, will be a 30 year type thing (unless Brooklyn is under water then! :)) so to me it is a big deal. I want it to be as perfect as possible and something I will be excited to come home to. I LOVE my block so I can see myself buying there. Price fluctuations are not a huge deal, but obviously it would be great to have OK timing in the next few years. The problem I have is that I think the $ is going to tank in the next few years which may influence NYC prices again. That is my fear. I think the NYC market is now too international to be based solely on the financial employment market. Also, Europeans have discovered the Slope and that also makes me scared it may not have the ridiculous drop our bf the What keeps getting excited about.

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 12, 2009 11:27 AM

Hah, I am originally from the UK, although I 'discovered' Park Slope when I moved here 10 years ago. Have not moved there yet as I spent much of my time here working in CT so was not practical until recently.
There are of course other inflation linked investments that you can put your money in to reflect your view of the dollar. I just think real estate is still out of whack in relation to incomes. Also, I don't think wealthy European financial buyers would be buying up townhouses in large numbers. If they are only there for less than half the year they don't want the hassle of maintenance.

Posted by: etson at May 12, 2009 11:37 AM

Etson, true. But if people start buying in Manhattan it will influence the market in the Slope. I think a some commodities ETFs would help hedge against inflation on that front, especially with the QE, but I think you are right about the prices being out of whack. A big deciding factor will be Obama tax policies. If the tax scheme works to remove the ability to deduct income from RE mortgage of primary home then real estate for high end buyers is screwed in which case I probably won't be buying a brownstone in a long long time.

Posted by: LincolnSlope at May 12, 2009 11:41 AM

They're pretty big and the location is good, as are the finishes. So I think they'd rent for about $3500-$4K/month. Otherwise, I agree with the What.

But what is up with the not wanting to live near schools? I see that often here and I really don't get it.

Posted by: Heather at May 12, 2009 11:45 AM

"Also, Europeans have discovered the Slope and that also makes me scared it may not have the ridiculous drop our bf the What keeps getting excited about."

How old are you 28??? 28 years ago NY City was a nightmare and please don't say the Asshats have made things better because it's not true! The funny thing is most of you never experienced the dark side of New York well your chance is coming up very soon. Service cutbacks, unemployment, high taxes, crime and anything from the good ole days will make a comeback. Keep believing that "Green Shoots' Bullshit and New York is the capital of the world nonsense. Wall Street and investment Banking are toast. Advertisement is all on the internet now and you can work from home. Newspapers???? They will be out of print very soon! The only growth trade for NY is drugs making a comeback, I feel real sorry for you! Your ASSumptions is going to get you financially killed!

The What (Keep on Keeping on)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at May 12, 2009 11:46 AM

Lincoln...coming to the Waterfront Ale House for drinks Thursday????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 12, 2009 11:46 AM

I remember when the place next to this development was on the market in 2006. The place had not been staged at all. Floor to ceiling full of junk. Asking price was actually OK all things considered but I wasn't seriously looking to buy at that point (and like I said I just don't like the block).

I am picky about blocks in the slope. This block: nope. Too close to John Jay or Methodist: nope. Berkeley bw 5th and 6th: nope. Anything past 5th Ave: nope. 9th St: nope. Union St: nope. Anything in that triangle bordered by Flatbush, 4th Ave and Park Place: nope.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 11:46 AM

many worthy comments above; however, the theme is always the same. some think the market will go to zero, some think the market has alot to fall, some think the market has a little to fall. what i find interesting is how many people are "waiting" for the dump. this "dump" can't happen with all the bids below...these places look great and may be overpriced, but make no mistake, they will be occupied at some point...and it won't be for $1000/month...

Posted by: 7182713 at May 12, 2009 11:49 AM

hm, living near that playground area seems like a negative. it's loud pretty much every morning and any sunny day-- and the building is all glass front and back. also, it's not a great block, nor is it in ps 321, other reasons why the prices seem high. they are nice apartments, but i do think that they are way overpriced for the market. the first floor apartment, they are asking 1.7 mil!? that's the price of a whole brownstone on some blocks. i'd rather own that brownstone for sale on garfield for 1.8 mil btw 5th and 6th than own two floors on this block. i also have the same questions as some others have raised. do you think something that modern can hold it's value in a location where historic homes seem to be the draw? i wonder what that would sell for in 5-10 years from now?

Posted by: bodhi_brooklyn at May 12, 2009 11:52 AM

I've been watching these go up as I push my kid on the swings. I wouldn't want to live right across from 282 but it's otherwise a great location and the building is much wider than a brownstone.

I like the way they look though I'm not sure about the logic behind a windowed facade in front of a crowded playground. I think they'll get a premium compared to the other crap being erected, but they ain't gonna get what they're asking.

Posted by: FatLenny at May 12, 2009 12:09 PM

Questions:

1. In this market are you comfortable relying on 3 sets of total strangers to pay the bulk of the maintenance costs for the building where you live?

2. If you are the first buyer, are you comfortable relying on a developer to pay the bulk of the maintenence costs for the building where you live?

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 12:11 PM

Maybe someone can help me as I don't often actually get into the nitty gritty of a listing. They say that common charges are at like $300 a month. Is that for real? If it is, that might explain how they hope to get such a hefty price and would significantly distance itself from the brothel for instance. If its not for real, how do you tell what the real costs are likely to be?

Posted by: Ledbury at May 12, 2009 12:12 PM

I am so disgraced to live in one of lecachal's nope nabes.

Posted by: FatLenny at May 12, 2009 12:12 PM

FatLenny, we have probably stood next to each other pushing our kids on the swings and looking at this place go up.

Posted by: lechacal at May 12, 2009 12:13 PM

I like the under contrstruction show. Has anyone else seen the spin off "10 grand in your hand" ? I'm not so convinced it's as easy as they say but some pointers.

As for these apartments - they do seem pricey but the high end finishes may distinguish them from other mediocre efforts locally. They'll sell eventually - pricing point is up for debate.

Posted by: 10thStreetReno at May 12, 2009 12:14 PM

Buy into a four unit condo?

Let me check weather.com for the forecast in Hell. Nope, still not frozen over.

Next contestant, please.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at May 12, 2009 12:32 PM

I'm sure we have, Lech. We should discuss the relative merits in persons. I'll wear my Ween t-shirt next time. I'm usually on the morning shift while Wifey sleeps off her hangover.

Posted by: FatLenny at May 12, 2009 12:53 PM

Until recently I lived on this block, watched this thing go up. I'm in contract and expect to close shortly on the 3 b.r. I am selling for about $600/s.f. I'm not happy with this number but realistic about the current market and will still make some nice change given the fact I own it since late 2001. Until spring the market was dead. Then had lookers but few bids. Folks are scared about their jobs, big down payments and perfect credit scores are required, and for the bucks this builder is asking this building will not move. Banks now require more than 50% (some 70%, and FNMA 90%) of units being sold in new structures. Resales of condos in the Slope on buildings constructed in the last 10 years are better deals, financing is possible and the tax exemptions and abatements have been finalized. Conclusion: too risky, too expensive and will ultimately sell in the $700-800/s.f. range. Competition at this price level is at Grand Army Plaza.

Posted by: MarionG at May 12, 2009 1:09 PM

Ledbury, yeah the common charges sound correct. Most new constructions are around that price unless the new condo has a doorman and/or pool/gym. Common charges only cover garbage removal and small expenses like electric in the hallways. You have a 15 year tax-abatement so no paying real estate taxes for first 10 years and then partial payment for the following 5. You also have to pay for your own heat and water just like in any house while in co-ops, those charges are usually included in your maintenance. Hope that helps.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 12, 2009 1:26 PM

Yes It does help. Thanks Kensingtonian.

Posted by: Ledbury at May 12, 2009 3:12 PM

Kensingtonian;

There are some errors in your statement:

-Individual units in a multi-family dwelling never pay individual water bills, be it a rental, a coop or a condo. The water is metered ONLY per building in NYC. So, the water is included in the common charges in both a coop and a condo.

-On the other hand, the property taxes ARE billed to the individual unit owners in a condo (because it is considered Real property by law), whereas in a coop the property taxes are included in the common charges (because one does own "real" property in a coop.

-A tax abatement does not mean you pay no taxes. It means that you do not pay the increased taxes due to the improvement of the property. You still pay the taxes based on the old assessment, prior to the construction of the new condo.

Posted by: benson at May 12, 2009 3:26 PM

Benson, You might be right about water since it is a fairly small expense comparitively to say, heating costs.

On the other hand, I know people who pay absolutely NO real estate taxes on new condos since they bought and will not pay for first 10 years on their newly constructed condo(s). after that, its going to go up by 20% each year of the property taxes until fully maturing at 15 year mark.
I think it's The 421a or 421b Tax Abatement Certificate that all of these newly constructed condos apply for. the certificate states that, usually, property taxes that were assessed to the building and its individual units will get relief for the first 10 years of occupancy.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 12, 2009 4:10 PM

Kensingtonian;

I live in a condo with a 25 year 421A tax abatement. For the first 20 years, the abatement is in full force, and then over the next 5 years it is phased out.

I pay property taxes, however. They are very low, but I pay them. They are the property tax on the property before it was improved by the Sponsor of our development.

I would check this out further. I am 99% sure that the 421A abatement works exactly as I stated above, meaning that you don't pay taxes on the improvements to the property.

Posted by: benson at May 12, 2009 4:51 PM

Benson, are you in a converted apartment condo or a brand new one? Maybe that makes a difference.

Do you mean that if it was a private house before that paid say 2K a year in taxes and was demolished to build a new condo, for example, the 4 condo apartments built in that property will pay combined 2K so approximately 500 per unit a year for first 10 years and then after that expires pay whatever the value is assessed at? So it really depends on what was there before?

That's interesting. I would be interested to find out exactly how it works as well because I thought it was the same for most of the developments under 421A or 421B. NYC.Gov doesn't provide much info. Let me know if you dig up anything.

Posted by: Kensingtonian at May 12, 2009 5:00 PM

"Do you mean that if it was a private house before that paid say 2K a year in taxes and was demolished to build a new condo, for example, the 4 condo apartments built in that property will pay combined 2K so approximately 500 per unit a year for first 10 years and then after that expires pay whatever the value is assessed at? "

Kensingtonian;

Yes, that's exactly right. I live in a new 46-unit condo development (4 years old). Prior to our condo, there was a garage on the site. I pay about $850/year in property taxes, and this is based upon the tax level of the previous property configuration (the garage). In other words, the garage was paying around $(46*850)/year in prperty taxes. If that tax level seems high, it is because my condo complex is 5 buildings, each 50 feet wide. So, it takes up 10 standard (25x100) building lots, and it was a commercial use.

Posted by: benson at May 12, 2009 5:15 PM

i was at the open house last week,this place is off the charts! absolutely SPECtacuLAR.....it is worth every penny...the kitchen is a dream!!!
it has everything!!!!!! wine cooler,espresso machine and a fridge to die four......
the views are great and i think it's great having a playground across the street as i have 2 kids.....so everyone who thinks it's too expensive your wrong.....you may not have the money but there are plenty of people that do.....

Posted by: boo4670 at May 15, 2009 9:01 AM

All I can say is that anyone lucky enough to have the dough to buy this place is getting one hell of a deal. I saw the project and was blown away. I have never seen anything like it. The designers put top end everything in it and seemed to have spared no expense. As I write this I'm trying to think of how I can up with the cash to purchase it. It's worth everybit of the 900 sf. I envy anyone who has the good fortune to live in this innovative and unusual building.

Posted by: nettie1128 at May 15, 2009 10:07 AM

A lot of schilling going on at this site...Hmmmm.

I really enjoy watching Under Construction as these guys are really old school Brooklyn - they always make me laugh. Entertaining as they are, i would be suspect of some of their construction practices after seeing them in action. The grade beam they constructed at the extension of the old Butcher Shop on one of the past episodes appeared to be non-engineered being sorely lacking in re-bar.

Posted by: JA at May 15, 2009 4:12 PM

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May 12, 2009

53 Lincoln Condos Hit the Market

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