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April 9, 2009

Time for PS 20 Principal to Get The Boot?

PS-20-Brooklyn-0409.jpgIn an article about how the Community Roots Charter School in Fort Greene is now harder to get into than Harvard today (play-by-play of the lottery is here), The Brooklyn Paper points to the unpopular principal at PS 20 (where a new gifted school is scheduled to open next year) as one of the reasons why so many parents signed up for the charter school lottery. The sentiment echoes numerous comments on the schools thread we had on Brownstoner earlier this week, where even the school's critics and defenders seemed to agree that the principal was a big problem. A commenter on Inside Schools says something similar: "The principal is a disaster. He is authoritarian, defensive, and almost incapable of taking input seriously." And speaking of PS 20 in a recent thread on the Times' Local blog, one commenter said, "The DOE needs to clean house." So the anecdotal evidence against this principal is sounding pretty compelling. Let's see if a poll backs that up—and then maybe someone who has a connection to Joel Klein can forward the feedback. At the very least, perhaps he can be persuaded to change his ways. If you live in Fort Greene or Clinton Hill, please vote below.




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Comments

I have no personal experience, and am only going with what I've seen posted on inside schools and overheard on the playground, (we're zoned for 11), but it sounds like the typical gentrification stuff to me. PS 20's principal has made the school somewhat of a success, I gather? But some parents don't like his methods, and so the school is ... uh, not that diverse.

Posted by: Heather at April 9, 2009 11:09 AM

For all the negative anecdotal evidence against the Principal of this school, the actual objective test scores tell a different story. 95% of 3 grade students scored a 3 or 4 on the state Math test(3rd highest in district) and 78% of 3rd graders scored 3 or 4 on the state ELA(highest in district). By most measures, this would be considered a successful school.

How can this school be soo bad when they consistently score at the top in district 13. PS 11 by example, scored 83%(13th) on Math and 62%(9th) on the ELA in this same subset.

I don't understand why the principal at PS 11 continues to get rave reviews as test scores have actually fallen off since 2006.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 9, 2009 11:17 AM

can you link me to your stats, csa? the most recent ones i have seen are incomplete (just english):
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/nyregion/20070522_SCORES_GRAPHIC.html

and ps 11 seems to be outpacing ps 20 by quite a bit, and ps 9, 282 and 8 appear to be doing better than (or at least as good as) both in the early grades. i'm not zoned for 11 or 20, so i don't have a dog in this fight, really. but i'm intrigued by the new gifted program and would like to see it succeed in our district.

Posted by: i disagree at April 9, 2009 11:58 AM

i disagree,

Citywide ELA results in Excel format, http://schools.nyc.gov/accountability/Reports/Data/TestResults/2008/ELA/Excel/Ela%2038%20School%20By%20Grade%202006-08.xls

Citywide Math results in Excel format, http://schools.nyc.gov/Accountability/Reports/Data/testresults/2008/math/Excel/Math%2038%20School%20By%20Grade%202006-2008.xls

These are pretty big files with every school district. PS 20 is District 13. Sort and you will find..

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 9, 2009 12:05 PM

thanks. interesting. the huge fluctuations y-o-y for scores for many of the schools doesn't really inspire confidence in testing as a good measure, does it?

Posted by: i disagree at April 9, 2009 12:29 PM

I admit I am not familiar with this school or the principal but I am appalled by the tone of the post. Based on a few shreds of evidence you are calling for the firing of a principal, backed by a poll that allows for multiple votes? How about a more reasoned debate? How about considering other methods before calling for removal of a person who clearly is not all bad? You're potentially damaging or ruining some person's career forever, so please do them the courtesy of going beyond a flip post and a superficial poll that can easily be manipulated.

Posted by: freshdaisies at April 9, 2009 12:39 PM

While i personally didn't feel welcomed into the school by the principal at 20 I feel like this kind of poll is in bad taste. It feels vaguely threatening- and unfair. If people want to discuss the situation with the school board i think that information is only relevant if people put their names to it.

In terms of test scores- on an objective level there are a lot of parents that want a school that is test/ clearly goal oriented- and for these parents the style of the principal and school works. A principal has much sway over how a school acts and feels - and in this situation I think that a lot of the people who go to the school like what he is doing with it. A lot of these parents might not be reading or commenting on brownstoner so a poll like this is even less useful- and quite possibly divisive. I think that the problem here lies less with the principal than with parents freedom and ability to choose where they send their children

In terms of test scores at 20 vs 11 - i think a lot parents- rather than being interested in seeing a school test well- or even their child test well- are more concerned that their child is learning in less test oriented way- as they feel that in the long run the children will be more successful in terms of their ability to think on a deeper conceptual level. Parents should have more ability to choose where their child goes- rather than test scores - school desirablity - or in other words- market forces - would be an even stronger indicator of school success.

Posted by: filmmer at April 9, 2009 12:48 PM

Testing as a measure of success is certainly more objective than word of mouth or anonymous postings on the internet.

I mean when its time for your child to go to middle school, its the test score that counts, not the reputation of the principal or school.


Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 9, 2009 12:50 PM

Of course parents are looking at tests scores. But a lot of Brooklyn parents (with the money to buy expensive real estate) also want a nurturing environment, creative expression, stimulating after-school programs, music, dance, theater, art... Ahem, they want 321. Or something very like it.

There are a handful of "good" schools in Brooklyn, which have little to offer other than high test scores, achieved largely by spending an inordinate amount of time on test prep.

I don't know anything about the school in question... this is just a general observation.

Posted by: Architerrorist at April 9, 2009 1:01 PM

The primary job of a principle is to make sure the little savages don't set each other on fire every day, so far it looks like he succeeded in his mission.
Kudos to him.

Posted by: Xander Crews at April 9, 2009 1:14 PM

I know it's Brownstoner's prerogative but I agree that the topic of the post as worded is distasteful and way too simplistic. Perhaps it could have just asked to people to comment on PS 20, without singling out the principal.

Posted by: renttoown at April 9, 2009 1:24 PM

Parents seem to strenuously object to being "excluded" from the school by the principal. Perhaps they are used to being deeply involved in their child's pre-school or daycare. Do they feel something is being hidden if they aren't allowed to participate actively?

I've been on two ps20 tours and the individual classes seem indistinguishable from other local classrooms (indeed the actual building is better than most with great big windows and plenty of daylight). The teachers seem nice and the kids are cheery and well-behaved. It's quite true the principal isn't a warm person (no smiles!?), but is that really the only measure of a school.

Interestingly, on both tours the pre-k class had a truly diverse population as well as rave reviews from parents. For whatever reason however, the kindergarten classes are substantially less diverse. This seems to happen at ps 11 too by the way. What happens in that year - private school? Charters? New Jersey?!

Posted by: Bricka at April 9, 2009 1:29 PM

Don't know the school so not voting. But agree that this has the ring of a familiar gentrification complaint, as a new set of parents with different opinions move in. Sounds verbatim like what I've heard in the past re: 282, for instance (where the out-of-zone parents who sought out the school loved the administration).

Posted by: basementalist at April 9, 2009 1:34 PM

Bricka,

I've always assumed that the upper grades at 11 and 20 were less diverse because of gentrification. I.e. the neighborhood was less diverse when those upper grade kid were in pre-k. i suspect that the upper grades will be more diverse as the current pre-k classes move up. btw, from my experience, the pre-k and k classes at 11 seem diverse, not just the pre-k.

Posted by: renttoown at April 9, 2009 1:49 PM

renttoown, its a foregone conclusion among the FG/CH stroller set that PS20 is a bad school and the principal is squarely to fault. I hear it repeated often at Underhill playground, FG Park and even here on Brownstoner.

I find the whisper campaign pretty offensive on several levels.

First, the actual students, you know the 5-10 year old boys and girls that currently attend the school, are scoring at or near the top of their district. They should be applauded, not clouded in "Get the Principal fired" rhetoric.

Second, what about the teachers of the above students? No mention is made of their efforts and achievements? "Clean house" isn't very encouraging or supportive of the teachers who are passionate and work their asses off everyday at that school. They seem to be thrown under the bus in the "Get the Principal Fired" rhetoric as well.

All of this just because a couple of parents find him to be a big old meanie, who's authoritarian, defensive, and almost incapable of taking input and... he doesn't smile.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 9, 2009 2:15 PM

I've taught high school since 2000, around the beginning of this godawful movement to test, test, test, test young kids to death. Tests DO NOT measure the ability to think critically. They don't measure curiosity or creativity or anything except the ability to regurgitate what the test-taker has already read. Most of the grading standards (at least in the high school Regents exams) are set so ridiculously low that non-special ed students would have to be quite brain-dead not to pass, or have absolutely no support from their teachers and parents. What's the biggest difference between my students in 2000 and 2009? My students now have been "educated" with ten years of test prep. They are by and large terrible critical thinkers, poor writers, and uninterested in anything beyond themselves and their two friends. There are exceptions, of course, but I got far more out of my students seven and eight years ago, and I had much less experience back then and was not as good or well-prepared teacher as I am now. I remember back then students were free-spirited and curious, and this seems to have been killed.

I constantly ask my students their opinions on the historical events we study. Earlier this year a student and I had the following exchange:

Her: Why are you always asking us what we think? Why don't you just tell us what you think?
Me: I want you to develop your opinions on your own, without being influenced by me. I want you to debate each other and not simply repeat everything I say. I don't want you to be robots!
Her: So?

I have no opinion on PS 20 and know nothing about it, but the idea that it's a good school because it has high standardized test scores is simply absurd.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at April 9, 2009 2:18 PM

We went to an open house at PS 20 a year or so ago. It was our first time visiting a NYC public school, so we were not sure what to expect. The Principal (the one that some people don't seem to like) was very nice, students looked happy, the school was clean and there were plenty of classes in music, art etc...Our son is still a few years away from attending School and we will probably move into a different zone (more for living space than school district).
Anyways I thought the School was pretty nice.

My wife did visit PS 11 on her own, she really liked it.

Posted by: Dan76 at April 9, 2009 2:31 PM

Hi Rentoown - I guess that was my point about the pre-k classes being diverse while the others are less so. Those pre-k kids aren't staying at ps20 and 11 in nearly the same numbers.

Tests and class size are bigger issues to me. I can deal with an unfriendly pricipal if my kid is getting what he needs in the classroom.

(But we'll see if I change my tune next fall!)

Posted by: Bricka at April 9, 2009 2:35 PM

sixyears- I've heard the same thing from other teachers I know, including those in my family. So what's the solution? Is there any?

Posted by: bxgrl at April 9, 2009 3:20 PM

"I have no opinion on PS 20 and know nothing about it, but the idea that it's a good school because it has high standardized test scores is simply absurd."

I agree... but it would also be absurd to assume that PS 20 is excessively drilling on tests simply because its test scores are high.

It is interesting that, whatever "some commenters" have posted on other boards, no one's actually posted much firsthand criticism of the guy here, other than a couple offhand references that he doesn't seem friendly.

Posted by: basementalist at April 9, 2009 3:32 PM

Bricka,

i could be wrong but I don't think the upper grades are less diverse because the more diverse pre-k kids eventually leave. it's possible that the upper classes were just as homogenous when those kids were in pre-k or k. i think when those upper graders were in pre-k or k, the school was much more homogenous than it is now. so what you're seeing in the upper grades is the less diverse pre-k classes that have gotten older. perhaps as the current pre-k class moves up, the upper grades will be just as diverse.

Posted by: renttoown at April 9, 2009 3:40 PM


"Tests DO NOT measure the ability to think critically. They don't measure curiosity or creativity or anything except the ability to regurgitate what the test-taker has already read. Most of the grading standards (at least in the high school Regents exams) are set so ridiculously low that non-special ed students would have to be quite brain-dead not to pass, or have absolutely no support from their teachers and parents."

As someone who comes from a family that includes several educators, I couldn't agree more!

Posted by: East New York at April 9, 2009 4:19 PM

Bxgrl,

There is no systemic solution to the problems of public education. No massively bureaucratic system can possibly take on the task of universal education; education by its very nature is a highly individualized. I would recommend John Taylor Gatto's essay "Against School". As the title suggests, his solution is to do away with the system as we know it, and is politically impossible. We can do a few things that would move in that direction, though:

1. Eliminate the current system of tenure for teachers.
2. Create a free-market system of schools where funding is tied to students - I think former Labor Secretary Robert Reich proposed something like this, where disadvantaged students (however defined) would come to a school with more funding. Bad schools would close or have to lay off staff because of lack of funds, etc. This would create a form of accountability without the nuttiness of standardized tests.
3. Eliminate the federal Dept of Ed, which educates nobody, and outsource its programs to the states.
4. Eliminate the requirement that everyone stay in high school until age 17 or whatever it is these days. Let kids drop out and see how hard it is to survive without a diploma, then bring them back for a GED.
5. Blow up the NYC DOE bureaucracy and start over with only the truly necessary administrators.

Of course, we could do all of this, and it still wouldn't work. There are many out there who cannot or will refuse to be educated, at least before they're 18. The best anyone can do is watch out for their own kids and do their best to supply them with books, use lots of big words when they're growing up to expose them to a wider vocabulary, turn off the TV, ban video games (sorry Rob!), travel some, go to museums, and to paraphrase DIBS' earlier comment, let them be adventurous and eat dirt every now and then.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at April 9, 2009 4:46 PM

"but it would also be absurd to assume that PS 20 is excessively drilling on tests simply because its test scores are high"

True, bricka, but I was mostly responding to those who earlier used PS 20's high test scores as evidence of the school's success.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at April 9, 2009 4:49 PM

I have no opinion on this school, not being in the area, but I do have opinions on NYC public schools in general, having both attended them and having put my daughter thru them. And noting that both my parents were teachers for part of their careers.

So when I see a teacher post the below, I have to ask;

"Most of the grading standards (at least in the high school Regents exams) are set so ridiculously low that non-special ed students would have to be quite brain-dead not to pass,"

And yet, if we take that at face value, why indeed aren't they passing? According to the above they are brain-dead. Nice.

Those who don't like the principal because he apparently does not take suggestions from every sparkly-eyed parent should consider what it is to manage an organization in a union environment where it is extremely hard to discipline or terminate an employee. Even when they consider a large percentage of their students to be brain-dead.

Posted by: denton at April 9, 2009 4:56 PM

Denton,

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but let's take the Global History and US History Regents exams as an example. Students complete a document-based question essay for each exam. All they have to do to meet the state's standards is take a few sentences from each document, paraphrase them, slap on an introduction (they can paraphrase the "historical context" provided on the exam) and a conclusion (repeat the introduction) and they've passed.

The vast majority of kids are curious and desire to learn, at least early in life. Schooling - I won't call it education - beats those qualities out of them in favor of conforming to ridiculous modes of behavior (the bell rang? jump up and run to the next classroom even if you're in midsentence!). Too often they are taught by people protected by absurd union rules, as you point out, who are themselves burnt out after years of dealing with the crap the DOE throws at them*. Budgetary constraints kill all the elective programs that enable kids to pursue interests that deviate from the state mandates. Want to take arts or music? Too bad. That's where "brain dead" comes in - I blame the system more than the kids.

*I haven't reached that point, yet, but I'm getting out before I do. Unfortunately too many teachers stay around too long because of the job security, or worse, go into administration.

Posted by: sixyearsandcounting at April 9, 2009 6:05 PM

I'm willing to bet the majority of the 59 who voted "Yes" have zero connection to the school.

If you have a child in the building you can vote Yes. If you use to have a child in the building, you can vote Yes. If you work, or have worked in the building, you can vote Yes.

Beyond that you have no business voting Yes

Posted by: christopher at April 9, 2009 7:30 PM

I'm late to returning to this discussion, and I don't know a lot about education, but it confuses me that there are so many theories built around something that, at the root, has been going on for thousands of years in pretty much every culture in one form or another. Like every other parenting practice, suddenly there's some kind of didactic "right" way of doing things. There's either the Columbia Teacher's College or No Child Left Behind, depending on your political preference.

While I think excessive testing isn't great, I can also look back on my fairly progressive education and the things it neglected like grammar and typing -- and rue the day. That makes me wonder a bit if maybe a little more route drilling wouldn't have done me some good.

Regardless, without even knowing him, I'm sort of rooting for the principal of PS 20. From the numbers, which actually do mean something, I think, he's done some good work. So have his teachers. So have the kids. And I don't see anything wrong with no parents in the classroom. As someone said, it isn't Dillon and they have no observation booths. (Note: those ARE cool... but by the time mini-Heather is 5 I am hoping not to helicopter her every waking moment. Dare I say, looking forward to it. Even.)

Sixyears, I REALLY hope that's how you tell your students to pass the Regents, because the way you present it makes it simple. However, I suspect they are supposed to figure that out for themselves, which can take a lot more time, especially if they also want to express their own opinions.

We have another year before pre-K, but I think all of the choices are fine. What boggles my mind more is the thought of spending $20K for private, especially at that age. Even for $20K, they don't teach them rocket science. And in the privates... (this is the point where I really don't get it), the qualifications for being a teacher are less, as is the salary -- and yet, the education is superior? How does that work, exactly? And why does it cost so much?

Posted by: Heather at April 9, 2009 8:41 PM

I voted yes cause I just felt like it

Posted by: Xander Crews at April 9, 2009 9:15 PM

We're zoned for 20, were very turned off by our interactions with the school, and sent our child to another public school in the district. Walking by the school, we heard teachers screaming at the kids on a daily basis. A chair once came flying out of the window. A secretary referred to a child as "the body," as in, we would need a utility bill, birth certificate, and "the body" to register. That was a few years ago; I have hoped that things have changed since then.

Leaving that experience aside, though, what we have found is that a principal who is engaged with the parent body does great things for the school. Parents who feel welcome donate money and time. I rarely set foot in my child's classroom, but I run fundraisers, write articles for the school website, and, yes, write checks. We're pretty tight on cash, but we try to help, because the PTA fundraising effort pays for a whole lot of enrichment and teacher support.

With regard to testing, the school my child attends is alive to the issue of overpreparation, For the most part, they do educate rather than teach to the test. Even so, 4th grade is a misery for many kids, mine among them. The 4th grade tests are de-facto middle school admission tests, so for several months, the kids are "educated" to regurgitate exactly what they need to do well. I hate it, and I hate what it does to my kid. And that's in a good school, one with a reasonably progressive philosophy. I hope that we are able to find a middle school that will educate rather than teach to the tests, but the irony is that to do so, we will need our child to test well.

Anyone got a solution?

Posted by: since 2000 at April 9, 2009 10:01 PM

The secretary isn't the one teaching your kid? They probably have a script, and why would that minor point matter?

As for the chair flying out the window, one fond memory I have from my elementary school is the principal standing up in the cafeteria with a baseball bat and telling the boys not to touch the girls, or he would hit them. Okay, yes, I am being sarcastic, but that did happen. So does other stuff. Not sure I'd make the judgement call based on those two anecdotes.

Here is the other part though that confuses me a bit: I don't actually want to run fundraisers, write articles, or write (large) checks. I just want my kid to learn to read and be better at math than I ever was. And possibly learn to type and diagram sentences. Is that impossible? Because from the hysteria I hear, even privates where you pay them ridiculous amounts of cash seem to also require you to take them on as a second career.

Is this another symptom of helicopter-parentitis? Or is it a real requirement? Will my child be doomed by my laziness? What the hell happened to bake sales (the kind where you could bring something from the store, even), and kids selling candy bars?

Posted by: Heather at April 9, 2009 10:49 PM

If a few negative, anonymous comments about us on message boards were considered just cause for termination, then I doubt any of us would have jobs!

My impression of PS 20 is based solely on hearsay from the FGKids yahoo group, insideschools. org, and parents in the neighborhood. I have never visited the school, nor have I met the principal in question.

Here's the highly subjective impression I've gained from these sources: this principal seems to have made some tangible improvements to PS 20 during his time there. However, he appears to have had difficulties working with the PTA and harnessing the energy of parents who wanted to contribute time, ideas, or money to the school. Contrast that with PS 11, where everyone always notes how welcoming and accommodating the new principal is. As a result, a lot of newer neighborhood residents are choosing PS 11.

Community Roots has become so sought-after partly because the administration encourages tons of parental involvement. Parents there are constantly visiting in the classrooms, volunteering, fundraising, lobbying elected officials, even teaching elective workshops for the kids. It's a big pool of free and enthusiastic labor.

A vocal, committed body of parents can be a great resource for any school. A few years ago there was a wave of such parents who wanted to roll up their sleeves at PS 20, but some of them seem to have felt stymied by the principal's authoritarian style. The new G&T program will probably bring in another wave, however. It will be interesting to see if he is more inclined to work with these new parents. I'll bet the pressure to do so will be strong.

Posted by: StuyMom at April 9, 2009 11:17 PM

Okay, and again, maybe it is just me -- but if there is such a caring, committed, and time-having parent body in Clinton Hill and Fort Greene, how come most of the people I meet at playgrounds are nannies?

I just feel a bit stressed about this topic, honestly. I'm not against parental involvement, just confused. How much is necessary and, like I said before, how much is a sign of our times?

Posted by: Heather at April 9, 2009 11:24 PM

As a parent whose child actually spent a year at PS20 pre-k, I feel qualified to comment. The school is academically focused, with a three R's style of teaching and plenty of homework. It is not a play-oriented or project-focused type of learning, such as you see at a Montessori or a more progressive school like Brooklyn New School or 321.

That said, the pre-k teachers are dedicated and loving, the pre-k classroom is gorgeous and the children are mostly happy and well-behaved. I got the impression that the parents of PS 20 kids mostly wanted the approach they got, with uniforms, strong discipline and teaching that stresses fundamentals from a very early age.

In that sense, the principal is perfectly suited to the philosophy of the school. I didn't find him to be frosty at all--rather, he is formal and a very top-down manager. But he feels that his approach is what works for the children at the school, and doesn't see much need to adjust.

Firing him won't necessarily alter the approach to learning at the school, and indeed may bring up someone a great deal worse. But clearly he needs to reach out more to parents or his school will not be attracting the kind of involvement and money that ultimately result in a great (as opposed to adequate) public school.

My child is no longer at PS 20 -- ultimately we wanted a less stringent and more hands-on approach to learning for our kid. But that doesn't mean the PS 20 approach doesn't have value.

Posted by: gidgetgoesbrooklyn at April 10, 2009 9:51 AM

you don't discuss a man's career or academics on a blog that trades in real estate gossip and catching up with hot resturants.
my child went to 20 .he received a fantastic education and yes, it is a more traditional approach.

i've met the current principal. i do volunteer work there and the teachers are really steady and good. the kids are happy, class size is relatively small and the school only has 400 or so students- this compared to 1, 100 when my son attended.
it's not the school's fault that they're prepping for tests- that's no child left behind and joel klein's hard on for "results".
keaton is not perfect but he isn't a monster and deserves more respect than a random poll .

from my observation the school is doing very well and is gathering steam. but if anyone doesn't think that race plays a hand in this discussion they are nuts and naive and i'm white . welcome to the new ft greene.

Posted by: ramona at April 10, 2009 10:27 AM

Ramona, I'm also wary of vilifying someone online which is why I was careful to make clear that everything I was posting was hearsay. However I think that when it comes to schools it's important for parents to gather and share as much information as possible (while noting that some information comes from iffy sources) so that's why I posted. I think brownstoner is a perfectly fine place to discuss Brooklyn schools. I agree that the poll is tacky and I also think your firsthand observation is more valuable than my collected hearsay. That being said, the overall picture that's developing seems consistent with much that I've heard: that he's an effective principal who simply does not click with parents who are seeking a more progressive educational style.

Heather - maybe I don't frequent the same playgrounds that you do (we go all over Bed-Stuy/Clinton Hill/Ft. Greene) or maybe I do at different times, but I usually see tons of parents. I hear you about the "helicopter parenting" that plagues our generation. But parent involvement over the course of many years is probably the #1 reason that a lot of formerly struggling Brooklyn public schools have gradually turned into places you'd want to send your kid. Organized and committed parents also fixed up Underwood Park years ago and organized the Halloween Walk, just to name a few neighborhood amenities.

Posted by: StuyMom at April 10, 2009 8:27 PM

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