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April 3, 2009

Quote of the Day

quotation-icon.jpgThis is why developers build eyesore POS's all over the place - because whoever objects is termed elitist and these concerns are dismissed. Demanding higher standards from developers altering our neighbor- hoods with the shittiest, cheapest condo buildings they can build is not snobbery. And I'm not suggesting city regulation - if more people spoke up then developers would maybe, maybe, give aesthetics 10 extra minutes of thought.

— by squaredrive in Horror Show Friday: 170 Clermont Avenue




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And the second finger flips skyward...

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 3, 2009 3:30 PM

LOL, Snark.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 3:31 PM

Isn't it related to who BUYS the various pieces of crap around this city for amazing premiums... I thought this was the marketplace?

We (the market) have decided to pay $1 million or more for modest and not-anything-special 3-bedroom houses... and the story is "suck it up, that's what the market says." So, housing is increasingly unsustainable, but that's the market and only the folks with the checkbooks can say anything.

Places the the "Friday Horror" are built... but all of a sudden, EVERYONE can influence how developments like this take shape?! One would figure only the folks with the checkbook would have influence...

Posted by: tybur6 at April 3, 2009 3:34 PM

Elitist.

Posted by: Jail_Bait at April 3, 2009 3:37 PM

I call bullshit!

Posted by: tybur6 at April 3, 2009 3:37 PM

"...if more people spoke up then developers would maybe, maybe, give aesthetics 10 extra minutes of thought."

Nope. Regulation is the answer.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at April 3, 2009 3:40 PM

Snark;

Bingo!

Posted by: benson at April 3, 2009 3:41 PM

This comment makes is sound so simple. It is not like you can just wake up and decide on a masterpiece.

There are cost, zoning, material, schedule, etc. that needs to be considered. Not to mention, pragmatic questions like where to place the kitchen and bathroom. Trying to then satisfy the local community's taste and desires makes it even a more problematic endeavor. This is why you get boring boxes all over. It is design by committee tempered by financial realities.

A lot of people like brownstones. And guess what - many also do not like them. I for one don't.

And be honest - all 'community concerns' are not really about aesthetics. It is about how it affects their lives - be it quality of life or property value. Often having a beautiful building overlaps with that need but at the core of it, these community concerns are the same as the developers - 'what do I get out of it'.

Posted by: crimsonson at April 3, 2009 3:48 PM

You just don't get it do you, crimsonson?

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 3:51 PM

tybur6, - i understand your point and it's largely true. as long as people buy in these buildings, that's the bottom line for developers, and calling out developers on a blog doesn't do too much. I'm not sure what the answer is, if there is one. I deal with landmarks and i don't wish that on the whole city.

Mainly i was just venting because i see buildings like the NOVO on this site yesterday, and in person, and it blows my mind. That shit is going to be there for a long-ass time. Maybe other people don't think it's so bad, but g-d! that building is ugly. and big.

Posted by: squaredrive at April 3, 2009 3:54 PM

I don't care what style of construction you like, you can't tell me that "windows that don't even line up" is on your list of things you want to see in a new building ...

There's a huge area between being snobbish about architecture and just wanting some basic, logical designs. Hell, these guys could pay me $500 and I could spend an hour sketching up building facades that might not win any awards, but would look five times better than today's horror show and not cost a dime more to produce.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 3, 2009 3:54 PM

"There's a huge area between being snobbish about architecture and just wanting some basic, logical designs. Hell, these guys could pay me $500 and I could spend an hour sketching up building facades that might not win any awards, but would look five times better than today's horror show and not cost a dime more to produce."

EXACTLY. And I think that's the only point that Mr. B is trying to make.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 3:58 PM

An ugly facade like this doesn't even make sense.
Why would you want to have such small windows on a long, deep building? Why not add a little transom or something above the door to make it seem grander and to bring a little natural light into the entrance hall? Why pick varigated beige brick in a city where the tradition is red brick and brownstone? Why not align your windows? why leave large expanses of blank brick on the facade?


Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 4:04 PM

CWB...you think it's that easy lining up windows? It requires laying the parallel ruler straight on the drawing board.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 3, 2009 4:05 PM

BRG - I have one semester of art school education under my belt, so I feel comfortable in my ruler-aligning skills.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 3, 2009 4:09 PM

Whew! I am so glad it wasn't my eyesight going all wobbly. I know they looked off but rather than risk going down in flames again today i took the cowardly way out and didn't say it. However, now that the cat is out of the bag- yes! you're right!! And really- how hard could it have been to make the windows line up better?

Brooklyn is famous and desirable because of its brownstone neighborhoods. They're an asset- I have yet to see a fedder go up in Manhattan. I'm sure there are some but Bloomberg is not the type to allow one to go up in his neighborhood.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 4:17 PM

Maybe brownstoner should add a feature on new developments done right, just to show that it's possible....it could be called "the good, the bad, and the ugly" fridays...

Posted by: squaredrive at April 3, 2009 4:19 PM

I agree squaredrive -- he can ask readers to submit suggestions....and he can pick and chose. I think people that do a good job deserve attention as well.

Posted by: Schultz at April 3, 2009 4:23 PM

I suggest renaming this thread, "Things that make you go zzzzz."

I understand Mr B's point, but I think this thread is - in the end - as snarky and ineffectual as the "That's Rather Hideous" posts on Curbed.

Is this virtual "Hall of Shame" of aesthetically challenged buildings going to change the mind of even one of the developers of said horrors?

Of course not. It's preaching to the choir.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 3, 2009 4:31 PM

Squaredrive... I actually agree with you about this building (to an extent, though I've seen far worse), but I have to think that the whacked out reality that has been created with the properties that have some sort of aesthetic sense might actually be the CAUSE here.

These "horror show" properties find buyers... and, thus, the developers don't get the message that their aesthetics are retarded. WHY do they find buyers so easily?? Because these are the only properties where a prospective buyer of more modest means can "find a break." (And I'm being very liberal in my usage of 'modest means')

When a 3-bedroom brownstone *starts* at $2 million in a prime neighborhood and at $1 million in a "border area," I'm not sure what you expect!!! And this doesn't just apply to real estate for sale, this also affects rentals... If NoVo was built as a rental development, it would have filled up even faster...

I have a solution. Stop paying $2 million for a house worth $600k and then maybe these "horrors" won't seem so attractive. However, as you know, the liberal concerned with community joy and happiness disappears when you suggest his/her brownstone shouldn't sell for a 134% return after 2 years.

(There's something to this argument. It's not the most well thought out idea that's come out of my head... but there's a few pearls of wisdom in there.)

Posted by: tybur6 at April 3, 2009 4:32 PM

a lot of really horrible places are developed by hasidics. they eschew aesthetics. place zero value on it and think that people who do are living worthless lives.

the ironic part is that the hasids are the people who bought up all the "nobody wants them" warehouse buildings that first artists illegally live in (followed by everyone else). then after funding the hasids, everyone wonders why they have so much money to build.

of course, the self entitled "liberal" new yorker never stops to analyze that it was their illegal activity that helped to create the problem that they then complain about. cause if you are liberal, then all your illegal activity is okey dokey.

Posted by: wine lover at April 3, 2009 4:35 PM

Somebody's been hitting the Manischewitz early today.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 3, 2009 4:40 PM

One of the reasons I chose to live in an historic district is because I don't want something like this popping up down the street from me. It would make me sad to have to look at it every day.
More areas need to be landmarked so we can hold on to at least a fragment of civilized urban environment.
Most of the city can still be "anything goes" where folks who don't give a hoot can live peacefully with their off-kilter facades, grundgy dives, and state-of-the-art tattoo parlors.
But speaking for at least some of us, thank goodness there are historic districts and landmarks regulations.



Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 4:46 PM

Oy...and on Passover week at that!!!!!!

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 5:00 PM

Design by the community and or design by committee that is not a formula for success. Aesthetics can be somewhat subjective. That being said there are I think there some buildings that even within an area of subjectivity one would agree are less than. I think that the concept of demanding higher standards and good design from the developers for the protection of the community is a lot easier said than done. And lets own up to it is elitist. If one could afford or desired only basic shelter with minimal concern as to wether he lived in a limestone or a building clad with aluminum siding would the design committee or the community , or the elitist pay this person the difference in cost between a limestone facade and aluminum siding so he can live in the community according to their somewhat subjective standards. My guess is talk is cheap and as long as it comes out of some else's flesh everyone got an opinion as to how the other person should live or how the other person should build etc. The problem is not just the developers. Developers generally higher architects to design a building. As shocking as it might sound most architects are not necessarily great designers. The developer doesnt tell the architect design me a cheap POS that the community will find offensive. The developer (same as the community, Purchaser and Architect) may or may not recognize what constitutes quality design. Each certainly has their own priorities and values things a bit differently. Most are somewhat motivated by self interest many times defined in terms of making a profit(developer), getting a good deal (purchaser), making a living, pleasing a client, and trying to develop a good design (Architect), how does it effect me economically etc with little feeling as to anyone elses costs (the community). I believe thats where the problem lies. The community is willing to have the developer and the purchaser spend whatever it would take better architect, better materials, higher costs. They are not concerned wether the developer makes a profit or wether the purchaser will be able to afford the Mercedes Building as opposed to the Chevrolet Building. The Community wants all Mercedes Buildings becauase this is a community of people who appreciate Mercedes. Elitists The concept that if more people spoke up developers would somehow come up with better designs i find kind of innocent. I do believe if the purchasers of condominiums understood the value of good design and were willing to pay up for good design and top quality there would be developers and architects that would attempt to provide them with such. I also believe that if the purchasers were not willing to purchase condominiums of low quality design at any price (im mean cheap) those developers would surely be displaced by the market.

Posted by: MRivera at April 3, 2009 5:32 PM

just a note to square drive i think its a good idea instead of brownstoner being a digital rag for negativity they should do some emphasis on development done right show some examples have some with knowledge of design explain the merits of the design why exactly it is good design

the concept of design by government regulation that really sucks
that doesnt sound like it will promote much in the way of design or creativity

Posted by: MRivera at April 3, 2009 5:48 PM

Aesthetics? You know the people who would regulate this think glass buildings are the end all and be all. Landmarks almost requires that if you add on to a Landmark building you build something that sets it apart(in glass or steel or aluminum). There are people who think 330 Jay Street should be landmarked as an example of a functional government building personally I think its an example of soviet style architecture and should be destroyed.

Posted by: smeyer418 at April 3, 2009 5:56 PM

winelover- I take it you are hasidic insider? You may not like their taste- I certainly don't- but you are very wrong to think they place no value on aesthetics.

As for the rest of your post- it ended as irrationally as it began.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 6:04 PM

Clearly, hasidics value asthetics--as shown by their fashionable ensembles and Shirley Temple curls topped with those awesome round fur hats.

Posted by: slick at April 3, 2009 6:16 PM

slick- those are dictated by their religious beliefs. What do your religious beliefs tell you to wear? A sharkskin suit?

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 6:28 PM

Tyburg, not at all. The Fedders buildings do sit empty and unwanted. And they are very pricey. So no on all counts.

That's in Bed Stuy.

In a place like Carroll Gardens, a developer could get far more and make a much bigger profit if he built what people want there. Not Fedders buildings.

It's just ignorance. The builders don't know the markets they're developing for.

Apartments & Lofts, a realty company, has actually done a pretty good educating buyers. Not that I'm saying everyone wants one of those types of condos (I don't) but it's a gigantic improvement over the usual.

Maybe homeowners in a given neighborhood (like, families, and women) ought to get together and meet with developers and tell them what they want. It might be chaotic, but educational. Or maybe someone clever who can extract people's real likes should do a focus group.

I volunteer.

Posted by: mopar at April 4, 2009 12:40 AM

I meant to say "Apartments & Lofts, a realty company, has actually done a pretty good educating developers about buyers."

Posted by: mopar at April 4, 2009 10:53 AM

I would say that anyone who wears ugly clothing because it's dictated by "religious beliefs" is probably placing less of a value on visual aesthetics.

Posted by: cmu at April 4, 2009 12:29 PM

Mopar;

I am really not trying to be snarky when I say this, but I wonder if you have been outside the brownstone belt of Brooklyn, given your statement above. While there may indeed be a glut of these new fedder homes right now due to the economy, the fact is that these homes have been constructed in Brooklyn for the past 50 years, and have not had a problem finding a market. I'm talking about the more modest parts of the borough, areas like Bensonhurst, Canarsie, Sheepshead Bay and such. Note that the 3 areas I just cited have a different ethnic make-up, and are full of these types of homes.

All Brownstoners can agree that these homes are aesthetically-challenged, as Snark put it above. Frankly, I think the folks who build and buy these homes could care less what we think - they have other concerns in life. That is why I keep suggesting to Mr. B. that this column is futile. Once again, Snark said it well: he's preaching to the choir. If he really wants to change the situation, he needs to explore what is driving this construction. Is it the building code, some economic factor or - believe it or not - a different aesthetic sensibility? In the latter case, Mr. B's approach is not only futile, it's counterproductive, as you don't change hearts and minds by sneering at folks.

Posted by: benson at April 4, 2009 1:29 PM

Yes, I know Hasidics dont all wear the same clothes out of coincidence.

PS I wear magic underpants...but not because I'm a Mormon.

Posted by: slick at April 5, 2009 8:42 PM

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