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April 2, 2009

House of the Day: 29 Maple Street

29 Maple Street isn't as charming on the outside as a lot of other houses in Prospect Lefferts Gardens but the interior has a lot of charm. The private driveway is a serious bonus, as is the third exposure it creates on the side of the house which results in tons of sunlight. The house traded for $595,000 in 2004. Now it's asking $899,000. Let's go to the pricing widget...
29 Maple Street [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark

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Comments

I'm swooning. What a great house. It' so bright and cheerful. Plus a driveway?? I don't even care that there's no master bath.

Sweet!

Posted by: TownhouseLady at April 2, 2009 1:27 PM

I really like this house and this block. Think this price is pretty spot on actually (meaning only slightly inflated---850 is my estimate). Would be a really nice buy for a family. Good luck to the seller!

Posted by: wasder at April 2, 2009 1:27 PM

It's great looking. I know nothing about the area, but I love the looks of this baby. I guessed 862k.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 2, 2009 1:29 PM

REALLY cute house - love the garden
I will keep my comments about the kitchen to myself ;)
however - isnt this nabe not soo great/safe?
unfor b/c it's a fringe nabe I can't see them getting even 800K for it - although it's done really well and has the driveay
I say 725K tops-sorry

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 1:30 PM

have no idea about prices in this area so I won't guess, but what a nice house. and "shows well" as the brokers say.

Posted by: Ringo at April 2, 2009 1:32 PM

I'm with Gemini.

People have been saying we're already back to 2004/5 prices in some cases, so why would this trade for 300K more than it did then?

Very cute house though on the inside. Not crazy about the outside.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 1:33 PM

gemini--fringe probably not the best word for this area. Pretty nice around there actually. I have friends on Rutland which is just a block over. Very nice family vibe.

Posted by: wasder at April 2, 2009 1:33 PM

If it went for $595k in 2004, and we assume a non-insane 4% rate of appreciation over five years, you come out at about $730k I believe.

$595k was probably overpriced to begin with given that by 2004 Brooklyn was well into its insanity period, but until the market bottoms we can't be sure whether we'll drop below 2004 prices or not.

It's a very cute house, though. I'm curious how much the present owners spent on reno.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 2, 2009 1:38 PM

pure guess since I dont know area that well - 770k.

very nice house though. love that garage & drive way.

Posted by: more4less at April 2, 2009 1:39 PM

cutest house ever!

Posted by: duckumu at April 2, 2009 1:39 PM

Wasder
sincerely speaking here - my husband and I drive through this part of the woods once a week to get to the West Indian foods/restaurants on Flatbush ave
My Husband(black,lived in BK all his life) tells me he would never move us over here despite me telling him all about the cute houses I see in the Times and how all the folks on Brownstoner fondly talk about Prospect Lefferts etc etc. He says that nabe has always been an area of high crime especially drug movement...
So that being said, how safe could it really be to raise a family in the mix of all of that. It's great to want to be the pioneer, but not at the expense of your safety...

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 1:54 PM

This is right in the middle of one of the best-preserved historic districts in the city, two blocks from the express train and Prospect Park. Hardly fringe.

There's a nearly identical one down the street for sale at 29 Maple: http://www.bhsbrooklyn.com/detail.asp?id=1005481

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 1:54 PM

Agree that it looks nice, but as others have said Lefferts Manor is known for its beautiful houses.
Not so enthused about the layout. Driveway that everyone loves makes for narrower house. . . i'd want a 20-foot wide living room.
Also location is not best in LM. Very convenient to train/park but also a bit too close to corner of flatbush with liquor store and hangout issues.
I'd say under 800K is a good buy. . . .

Posted by: ontheparkway at April 2, 2009 1:56 PM

I'm going to let someone else say it.

Posted by: JIPS at April 2, 2009 1:57 PM

Pretty on the inside.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 2, 2009 1:58 PM

FLH: Isn't the HOD the SAME house you link to?

Posted by: JIPS at April 2, 2009 2:05 PM

> "There's a nearly identical one down the street for sale at 29 Maple"

More than "nearly."

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 2, 2009 2:08 PM

HAHA

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 2:13 PM

While I can't afford it... a $800k price tag actually makes sense in my little head. What I mean is that it doesn't hurt this think that someone is shelling out that much cash.

(Actually, that might be my mental capacity in general for an "ordinary" house.)

Posted by: tybur6 at April 2, 2009 2:17 PM

The stats from the precinct for the PLG area don't support what you're saying about being one of the most high crime areas, Gemini. Just so you know.

Posted by: traditionalmod at April 2, 2009 2:17 PM

i think the house is very cute. the pricing has been so odd over in this area. the 16 footer on rutland was listed 1.3M, then like a month ago another small rutland house was over 1M. so i have no clue on price, i would guess 750k.

gemini10 - i grew up/lived my entire life in bk and i do think your husband is off the mark. the area in not perfect but there are alot of families. infact i have 2 good friends who grew up in this nabe and they both come from very good families (both parents were doctors). your husband probably grew up in an different area and is going by rumor b/c he obviously is not familiar with anything other than flatbush ave.

Posted by: bkny at April 2, 2009 2:21 PM

Traditional - where do you go to get those figures?
am curious - I'd like to know (secretly i love those houses)

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 2:22 PM

A few years ago I looked at this house near there on Hawthorne. The neighborhood is pretty but that part of Hawthorne, particularly the tenants in the place we looked at, had an edgy heavy druggy vibe.

A former co-worker, a black woman originally from New Orleans, said that she had been visiting NYC all her life and would never consider living around there. She now lives in Crown Heights.

Posted by: Bessie at April 2, 2009 2:28 PM

Gemini, you can call Officer Vinnie Martinos at the 71st Precinct and ask about the general neighborhood or even specific blocks. Also he could direct you to the local resident who is the police liaison who can give you info. The community is pretty organized tracking crime and staying in contact with police.

Posted by: traditionalmod at April 2, 2009 2:28 PM

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Je4RbYsS06cJ:www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs071pct.pdf+71st+precinct+compstat&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

that's the compstat report for the 71st precinct.

I think even the crime stats from the 71st are misleading. The precinct is enormous, and stretches all the way over to Brownsville and East New York. The western edge(by prospect park) is where most of these listings are, and where the historic district is, and has a much safer vibe. That said, it's not Park Slope, and that's why the houses cost about half what they would directly across the park.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 2:35 PM

gemini--I certainly understand anyone's concerns for the safety of their family. My friends with small children over there are loving it. But to each his/her own for sure and I would never cast judgement on anyone with a different perspective on this sort of thing.

Posted by: wasder at April 2, 2009 2:38 PM

Yep that's why I said check on stats for PLG not the entire precinct.

Posted by: traditionalmod at April 2, 2009 2:40 PM

Wasder - agreed, but my husband is obessed with my safety - it's his thing really(sweet) and was the main theme of my bridesmaid's speech at our wedding...

It's funny b/c when we are over there he always laughs and marvels at "all the white people" around on Flatbush and comments if this was 10 years ago you would never seem them over here.
To each their own - I certainly would be fine living over there, but I think he's a lot more careful and sensitive as we are an interracial couple and that throws a wrench into the mix.

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 2:46 PM

When people say we're back to 2004 prices, are they talking inflation-adjusted or raw numbers?

Posted by: sslothrop at April 2, 2009 2:46 PM

The house is very cute. I wonder if the driveway is shared.

Posted by: _oa_ at April 2, 2009 2:51 PM

I can feel for that Gemini. There are all sorts of variables that throw a wrench into the mix, as you say.

I consider myself pretty confident, but when I'm over in that area (as a REALLY white gay man) I don't feel totally comfortable myself.

There are amazing houses, the park is right there, and the prices are half what they are in Park Slope, but since this is my home we're talking about...I don't want to live (and invest) in an area where I don't feel comfortable.

It could be in my head (just like it might be in your husband's head) but most of the time when your body is telling you something, I usually tend to listen.

Some people choose to take the discount in home prices over total comfort, but some people choose to pay top dollar for the level of comfort they desire in their living environment. It's not to say I don't love PLG, but I just don't want to live there is all. No one is right or wrong.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 2:51 PM

Gemini " always been an area of high crime especially drug movement" thats a pretty bold and ignorant statement. When Park Slope was awash with crime, SRO's and its drug dealing in the early 1970's, This side of the park was much more tranquil and stately. These homes in the LM Historic District have been single family for over 100 years and have never been chopped up, preserving that tight-nit homeowner community. Its very dangerous to judge a place just by the look of it and the preceptions that get played out in your imagination.
Also 595K was not an insane price for the area in 2004, but right in line with values. You may have thought that in 2004 prices were insane, but this house was half the price of ones in Clinton Hill, FT. Greene, Park Slope etc. Houses in Lefferts Manor have generally been half the price of those other neighborhoods for a very long time. Which means these homes in Lefferts Manor rise and fall at the same pace as the other brownstone neighborhoods of Brooklyn. So if you were buying at any point in the last 20 or 30 years the deal you got was probably close to the prevailing rates for that year. And today the same holds true. Its one thing to say something is overpriced based on your emotional feeling, but looking at comps and the reality you can't change it. Its not cheap in these five boros and thats the bottom line.
So after all THAT.....I think it is priced fairly and reflects the comps in the neighborhood and is proportionately priced compared to Park Slope as seen over the last 30 years.

Posted by: tomgee at April 2, 2009 2:53 PM

11217, you have to trust your feelings, and I'm not doubting you, but I live in PLG and there are two white gay men on my block (that I know of) and one of them is in an interracial couple. And I've seen a ton of young gays/lesbians moving into the neighborhood in the two years I've been here. Rent is also half of Park Slope.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 3:03 PM

11217 - I understand how you feel. I wonder all this - b/c my husband might have a perception of the ills of this nabe from when he was more rough and tumble and younger and was more concerned with "keeping up with the streets" perhaps what he experienced and or heard about doesn't go on so much over there and that part of BK has changed in terms of crime -just a thought... but yes you do pay a premium for safety
however, Joe the Bummer's story yesterday about being robbed at gunpoint on 7th and Garfield made me very nervous, you too am sure?

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 3:07 PM

Of course...I'm sure there are tons of gays/lesbians over there...they are oftentimes some of the first people to gentrify neighborhoods...

I guess I realized during my home search that even though I wanted (in theory) to be a gentrifier, I am not. I want to live in an area I like and feel comfortable with now. And fully. And I was willing to pay more and live in a smaller space to do it.

It was something I learned about myself when buying my place.

It takes all types...I'm grateful for those who are interested in the gentrification process...I have them to thank for many things I enjoy about Brooklyn.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 3:08 PM

I've never been a fan of house pricing debates that are primarily based on looking at a photo on a website. But, since this kind of keyboard appraisal activity has been a staple of the Brownstoner site from the beginning, there's no point in asking what's the point of it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that this new ratings system will grow to be quite popular over time.

Still, I think it would lend a whole lot more credibility to the system if those who were doing the guessing were basing it on neighborhoods, blocks and houses with which they have actual familiarity and leaving the untried and untested alone. (Kind of the same way the restaurant reviews work.) Unfortunately, as has always been the case with PLG, you have a lot of people on this site offering their "appraisals" who have never stepped foot into this neighborhood, or did so years ago and haven't been here recently, or are otherwise basing their guestimates on rumors. (And, no, I'm not addressing these comments to folk like 11217 who says when he comes to my neighborhood he's not comfortable being here. That's his reality, after all. What's to argue?)

BTW, I happen to think that both Maple I and II and Hawthorne I and II are lovely blocks with lovely homes. Hawthorne Street has more apartment buildings mixed in with family-sized houses and it is not part of the historic district. This HOTD is located on Maple I in Lefferts Manor. That location means something when it comes to price. I personally believe that anything in Lefferts Manor can command an $800k price and above -- even in this market. And, yes, there is no doubt that my view of this both informed and favorably biased.

Posted by: Brooklynista at April 2, 2009 3:09 PM

My first impulse was to answer gemini10's comment by writing that the "pioneer" days were LONG past" in Lefferts Manor, but, on reflection, I realize that wouldn't be accurate. Lefferts Manor never deteriorated like many other brownstone neighborhoods because the single-family covenant ensured that it would always be a middle class neighborhood. I've lived here since 1974 and certainly couldn't call myself a "pioneer."

Nevertheless, if gemini10, (or her spouse) think they wouldn't feel comfortable here, so be it. It's a shame though, because with the MANY interracial couples here they'd likely be quite comfortable in actuality. The same (IMO) might well apply to"11217"--lots of "REALLY white gay" men here too.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 2, 2009 3:12 PM

"Joe the Bummer's story yesterday about being robbed at gunpoint on 7th and Garfield made me very nervous, you too am sure?"

It did make me a little nervous, sure...but I'm aware that these crimes happen all over. There's a difference though between a crime like that (which is far more awful, but luckily isolated in nature in these parts) and then the feeling I sometimes get walking down a street in East Harlem where people look at me as though I am from a different planet. I don't even think I look that "gay" I just have a certain style of dress or demeanor that probably gives it away. It's similar to the looks you probably get as an interracial couple. It's nothing I can't handle and some of it might be more curiosity than it is looks of disgust, but it's just not something I want to encounter each and every day...especially not when I'm spending so much money on a home.

I can be more myself here in PS (or many other neighborhoods all over) than I could in PLG I think. And for that, I'm willing to pay more.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 3:13 PM

Bobmarvin - I appreciate your take on it - I know I would feel comfortable - it's my husband worrying about ME being safe. He sees the world through different eyes than I do.

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 3:24 PM

gemini--its funny but my friends in Lefferts are an inter-racial couple as well...

All things considered though this has been a pretty thoughtful and non-confrontational discussion of this kind of thing. Well done on everyone's part.

Posted by: wasder at April 2, 2009 3:25 PM

I guess the point of my story is that I'm not willing to plunk down 900K (if I could even afford it) to be called a fag walking to the subway (which is what happened last time I was in PLG about a month ago).

I've never been referred to as such in my own neighborhood.

And it's a coincidence that these areas might be more heavily African American because I do not consider myself racist in the least. In fact, my friend who lives in PLG is African American and she doesn't love it either. Coincidentally...she has a white boyfriend and I've walked down the street with them many times and witnessed people making off color remarks. She's a renter and has a good deal, so she puts up with it...rightly so...it's hard to find decent cheap housing, but if she could she would not stay.

With all that being said...there are obviously many more people on this thread who don't feel like I do (maybe I'm overly sensitive...I don't know), so I have to assume I'm in the minority on this issue. I will continue going to visit and enjoy PLG, but a move there for me in probably not in the cards.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 3:25 PM

While there are probably only a handful of neighborhoods in the country where a gay person would feel more comfortable than Park Slope, I'm glad that many people (gay, interracial, whatever) are braving it in PLG. They may be indicator species of gentrification (and all the conflicted emotions related to that), but even more they are a sign of increasing tolerance.

As for the pricing, the market will bear it out one way or the other. A slightly larger two story on the next block of maple, sans garage, closed this week for 999k, as did a three story just outside the HD for 999k.

It'll be interesting to see if two identical houses with identical asks end up going for similar prices.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 3:30 PM

> "I've never been referred to as such in my own neighborhood."

I have. Right on Fifth Avenue one evening. Some guy lurking in the shadows and casting aspersions. It didn't really faze me, but it bugged my bf. I figure unless somebody is getting aggressive, I'm not going to sweat it.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 2, 2009 3:42 PM

"All things considered though this has been a pretty thoughtful and non-confrontational discussion of this kind of thing. Well done on everyone's part".

Indeed it is WASDER!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 2, 2009 3:43 PM

"Some guy lurking in the shadows and casting aspersions"

You sure that wasn't DIBS?

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 3:44 PM

Agreed Wasder
we all kept it civil and thought-provoking!

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 3:47 PM

11217-i don't think you compromise 'comfort'. some people have different comfort levels. i feel 100% comfortable in PLG and i am there alot. i feel less comfortable in PS b/c i think the people are rude and unfriendly. So even if i had 2M to spend on a brownstone, PS would be by far my last choice of nabes. i never go there for any reason. i have been to a few cool resturants over there but i could totally live without ever visiting.

just a thought.

Posted by: bkny at April 2, 2009 3:56 PM

Comfort comes with exposure, for me. There are areas of prospect heights for example where the first time I walked through them I was like "this is kinda sketchy" and now that I know them, I wonder what in the hell I was thinking.

Having never been to PLG, I don't really know how I feel about it. I'm just trying to judge the house based on what it cost the owner and what it theoretically should be worth after five years of appreciation. :)

Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 2, 2009 4:06 PM

bkny - what part of BK do you live in?
I find people in PS to be super nice and friendly as I do in most parts of the borough

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 4:12 PM

Agreed, gemini10. I've always found folks to be pretty friendly in the Slope.

You want rude and unfriendly? Try Boston.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 2, 2009 4:25 PM

Brick on the outside, slick on the inside.
Very cute house, but the price seems very high. High 600's - Low 700's

How long is the commute to midtown from PLG?

Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 2, 2009 4:26 PM

B/Q will get you to midtown in 25 minutes. Call it a half hour, door to door, if you don't have to wait for the train.
It's a quicker commute than 50% of Park Slope.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 4:33 PM

gemini10 - i live in bed-stuy. i am black, you are white, could be the difference in our prespectives....

Posted by: bkny at April 2, 2009 4:35 PM

bkny - are you a woman or man? might be the difference too you know...
but as I said before in my post above - my husband(black) sees the world obviously different than I do
however he's black and lives in PS and loves it there

Frederick - seriously you are making me want to move there - that commute sounds A-ok to me!

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 4:42 PM

25 minutes to midtown...hhhhmmm, not bad. If the commute was longer, I would decrease my estimate of low 700's.
I still think $899 is crazy for this house.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 2, 2009 4:47 PM

For those of you who have never been to Prospect Lefferts Gardens/Lefferts Manor, or haven't been here in the past few years or so, why not check out the nabe on this year's PLG House Tour? (Bob, help me out here with the details). My bet is that most of us PLGers would genuinely love to have you walking our blocks and checking us out as a community up close. I'm also willing to bet that for most of you for whom this would be your first time here, you're likely to be pleasantly surprised. (BRG. . . you, in particular, must come!:)

Posted by: Brooklynista at April 2, 2009 4:52 PM

Glad to help you Brooklynista--this year's PLG tour willbe on Sunday, May 31st.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 2, 2009 4:56 PM

Bklynista - ok I would like to check it out
I go there weekly for West Indian food etc - so am familiar with the nabe and marvel at the gorgeous homes on Beverly Rd etc when driving through to Flatbush Ave

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 4:56 PM

Maybe there should be some sort of system where you throw out the highest and lowest bids on the widget...

Really...someone voted a million?? Someone actually thinks that in 2009, this house is going to go 100K over ask?

Come on now.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 4:57 PM

I will definitely try to attend the PLG tour this year.

I'll also try to get over there (it's one whole stop on the Q!) and just wander. :)

11217 - I agree. That 1mm+ vote is crazy.

Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 2, 2009 5:04 PM

PLG HOUSE TOUR is May 31st

This quote is VERY funny,
"all the white people" around on Flatbush and comments if this was 10 years ago you would never seem them over here."

Another ingnorant statement for many reasons and untrue (as Bob Marvin can attest to). But lets take it further. You could definately had made that statement in reverse 45 years ago. Jackie Robinson played baseball in this neighborhood and was not allowed to buy a house here!! nyc neighborhoods are organic and have changed from generation to generation..Park Slope was a Puerto Rican neighborhood once you know!

Posted by: tomgee at April 2, 2009 5:06 PM

Well, BRG, 75 Fenimore, an identical house in less good shape on a slightly less-nice block, sold a year ago for 877k.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/02/house_of_the_da_456.php

Of course that was before the meltdown. So figure whatever percentage drop you like into your estimation, but you can understand why they picked this price as an ask. But everything I know of in PLG that has sold in the last few months has gone for 15% below ask. Like this one:

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/09/house_of_the_da_571.php

I say low 800s takes it.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 5:13 PM

Why is my comment ignorant(other than my mispelling)?
my husband who is black made that comment and he's right - 10 years ago you wouldn't see white folks just roaming around on Flatbush Avenue down in that stretch- sorry it's not ignorant it's fact!
am over there weekly now and I still don't see that many white folks as I do black folks - I am just stating a fact. The stores on Flatbush Avenue cater to the West Indian community, from Parkside on down so what?

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 5:19 PM

Gemini, maybe I'm misreading your posts but. . . PLG is the first community of Flatbush. Starting at the northern perimeter (and beginning at the southern base of the BBG), it runs from Empire Boulevard south to Parkside Avenue. Going from west to east, it run from Ocean Avenue (at Prospect Park) over to New York Avenue. So, when you are on Flatbush Ave "from Parkside on down," or marveling the gorgeous homes on Beverly Road, you are not in PLG! :) Just come on over to the House Tour and bring hubbie along!

Posted by: Brooklynista at April 2, 2009 5:33 PM

Its ignorant. Because there were white people on Flatbush Avenue 10 years ago. Your husband is filling you with false perceptions. The stores don't only cater to West Indians. Its not all black and white. There have always been white families in this neighborhood from the day the Dutch farm got sold and developers started building. And even before that obviously. Sorry, but your "facts" are wrong and you shouldn't quote a husband that says something about a neighborhood he never lived in and take it as fact just because he is black. He is still wrong. Yes there are more black folks than white folks here, so what. But its not absolute and it was never a 100% black neighborhood. And as a matter of "fact" if you look at a NYC census map, there is not one neighborhood that is 100% anything. Breezy Point is the whitest neighborhood in NYC and they are not 100%. whew......i am done

Posted by: tomgee at April 2, 2009 5:36 PM

bklynista - I will print out this post and make hubbie drive us around the areas you just mention, so I get a better feel from it.
I might be fighting a battle that's the wrong one....

am blonde-so forgive me :)

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 5:38 PM

Ha! Nice one on Breezy Point, tomgee. I went fishing out there in the fall, and saw more McCain/Palin signs there than Main Street Wasilla.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 2, 2009 5:42 PM

Brooklynista, while I don't know PLG as well as I do other Brooklyn nabes, a year ago we almost bought a house on Lincoln Rd (and I forget what cross streets) which I believe is not too far away from this house. It was a free standing house on a huuuuge lot - something like 100'x120', maybe even bigger; hubby will remember. The asking price for that house was very close to this ask, The house needed alot of work, but it was spectacular. I almost regret not buying it. The house just needed too much work for us.

I'll be back in the nabe to explore it in further detail, I promise.

I still think $899 is too much for this house.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 2, 2009 5:42 PM

"Its ignorant"

I know everyone makes typos, including myself...but I had to laugh at this one.

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 5:42 PM

I also don't think Gemini was being ignorant at all. I think she was merely stating an observation by her husband, that there were few white people around 10 years ago on the particular street where they were at the time the comment was made.

I know some of you hate Wikipedia (it's not always perfect) this is a statement in there for PLG.

"Currently the neighborhood contains an ethnically diverse community with a largely Caribbean population."

Yes, sure...we all know these neighborhoods are MORE diverse then they are sometimes given credit for, and aren't 100% of anything, but there's no reason to jump down someone's throat because someone they know made an observation that there were few white people around, which was true 10 years ago, and true every time I've been there as well (maybe 20 times?)

Posted by: 11217 at April 2, 2009 5:52 PM

peace everyone this is gemini10's husband, my comments to my wife were not made in a judgemental tone, but I have lived in brooklyn all my life born and raised here, I'm 34yrs old and when I was a young man in my teens you would be hard pressed to find a white person on flatbush ave from lefferts all the way up to flatbush junction. I have family on fenimore,parkside,arglye, midwood,etc and I have hung out there enough to know that many stretches in that neighborhood was not the place to get caught off guard even for black folks. Sorry, but back then, there just weren't many white folks - yes there were a few, but not as many as I have seen now. I didnt mean to offend anyone who lives in that neighborhood currently or 10-20 years back(black or white) I was just stating the facts that I experienced. How many of you remember the Kenmore movie theatre on Church Ave where there was a shootout every other movie you went to... I'm just saying it was a rough place back in the days that's all and if you spent alot of time there throughout flatbush you know what im talking about.

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 7:28 PM

No offense taken "gemini10's" husband. I'm white and have lived in PLG from about the time you were born, 34 years ago. While there have always been white people in PLG, they ARE more evident on Flatbush Avenue now than even 10 years ago. Perhaps this is because the 20 somethings now renting in the neighborhood's apartment buildings are out and about more than older homeowners (although,come to think of it, I was a "twenty something" back when I bought my house). I don't think the percentage of white residents has increased all that much (although it HAS increased) but they are more visible, maybe for the reason I've suggested

Many people differentiate between PLG and parts of Flatbush further south. You do not seem to do so (i.e. listing "Argyle" together with PLG streets like Fenimore, Parkside, and Midwood). I can't really complain, because my 26 year old son does the same thing :-)

Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 2, 2009 7:45 PM

Yes, I'm not getting this argument. Isn't it common knowledge that there are more whites now living near that area of Flatbush Ave. that there were 10 years ago?

Posted by: Nomi at April 2, 2009 7:47 PM

Some of us remember the PLG wars here on brownstoner which resulted in a lot of great people no longer posting. I won't go into it but every time someone mentioned PLG, the trolls came out of the woodwork along with the racists and the KKK members. This thread is a far cry from those and it's a relief. PLG is lovely- I have friends over there and the architecture is amazing.

I'm sure 10 years ago there were less white people. It wouldn't matter one way or another. Basically when people point out the racial make up of a neighborhood it's a grading system. Not a nice one either. The problem with believing that white people are an indication that a neighborhood is "coming up" is that you ignore everything people have done to make that neighborhood a great place to live for themselves. CHN is a case in point. This neighborhood was up and coming before white people began moving in. I was one of a very few white people when I first moved here. Now the Great EVLL and I joke about there goes the neighborhood, and its all her fault for letting me move in :-)

When I was in an interracial marriage we lived in the very white Brooklyn Heights. When we first moved over there the hostility just oozed out of people when we walked down the street. If we walked through Cobble Hill and Carroll gardens, we would get dirty looks and nasty comments. All from white people. we were made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. Eventually it did change but the nasty truth was that many white people looked at us as if I was a loser who couldn't find a white man to marry me, (actually I turned down several in my time) and my ex was somehow "unusual" for his race. Race is an ugly subject- people are Jekyll and Hyde on race.

I have never been made to feel uncomfortable in CHN. I find that people are sometimes wary of me but smile and say hello and it's like the sun comes out.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 2, 2009 8:10 PM

Bxgirl, you sure were missed while you were away in Florida. Thank the lord you are back! And, thank you for being a white woman who can sum up so many of the thoughts and feelings of this black woman and then be able share it in a way that others can actually hear it without running away. I think that's called bridging the divide. Thanks much indeed.

Posted by: Brooklynista at April 2, 2009 8:36 PM

While I'm not crazy about the outside, I *love* the inside - one of the better HOTD's I've seen in a while for pure charm, nice lay-out, and a wonderful vibe. However, I too have friends in the neighborhood and while I'm sure some people like it, it has significant drawbacks, not least among them poor schools, which I would think someone buying a house (and thus likely a family) would care about. Private schools, even if you're willing to pay, are not necessarily easy to get into so that's a huge gamble. Plus, the area is lacking in amenities (restaurants, grocery stores, etc.) compared to more gentrified areas. When you add to that the trend back towards 2004 prices (we're not there yet, but might be soon), I do think they'd be lucky to get a lot more than they paid - I'd say 700 tops, and quite possibly less.

Posted by: Miss Muffett at April 2, 2009 9:14 PM

Hi guys - it's me
I appreciate all of your feedback
Thanks Bobmarvin! - my husband said he used the different street names to show the spanse of his knowledge/experience of the nabe ;)
Bxgrl - wow, I had no idea that PLG postings in the old days here on brownstoner would bring about such hate and agreed you certainly do not need white folks to make a nabe up and coming
Very interesting topic indeed

Posted by: gemini10 at April 2, 2009 9:25 PM

I love the amount of sun this home gets. So bright and airy, better even than some of the multimillion dollar brownstone row houses. 2x out of my price range unfortunately for me. I shall be contented with an apartment and not be envious, I swear.

Posted by: ennuiater at April 2, 2009 9:43 PM

My husband and I (plus baby daughter) will be moving to LM soon and we love the neighborhood. If this house was around when we were looking we might have considered it because it does seem to be in good condition. Our house a couple of blocks south of there needs alot of work. Also, welooked in other neighborhoods north and south of Lefferts and the vibe just wasn't the same.

Posted by: LuvingModern at April 2, 2009 10:12 PM

We are definitely looking in this nabe (and were seriously thinking about bidding on 107 Rutland which is now in contract). Have to give a shout out to De Hot Pot on Washington -- gave us complimentary doubles while we mulled over the 3 properties we had seen. We are white and felt very welcome.

Posted by: pop at April 2, 2009 11:23 PM

"When you add to that the trend back towards 2004 prices (we're not there yet, but might be soon), I do think they'd be lucky to get a lot more than they paid - I'd say 700 tops, and quite possibly less."

Good luck with that, Muffett. There's very recent comps (i.e. this week) that suggest otherwise.

Did you see this map? http://tinyurl.com/cgm6av

One foreclosure in the entire neighborhood, and that was an apartment building. People aren't as desperate to sell as you perpetually, impatiently seem to wish they were.

Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at April 3, 2009 9:59 AM

The other house is 19 Maple. They have an open house Sunday 11:30 - 1PM. Looks really nice!
http://www.brownharrisstevens.com/detail.aspx?id=1005664

Posted by: brooklynellis at April 3, 2009 11:31 AM

The weird thing to me if somebody judges the neighborhood's economic makeup simply by driving through and counting black vs. white, is assuming all black people are low income. Our black neighbors in LM are in professions such as architect, pastor of a large Brooklyn church, graphic designer, film producer, successful TV actor, just to name a few.

Posted by: traditionalmod at April 3, 2009 1:29 PM

Ton expand on traditionalmod's 1:29 comment, when we moved to Lefferts Manor, long ago, when house prices were low (and dinosaurs roamed the Earth) black homeowners typically had HIGHER incomes than white newcomers,like us. It's only in recent years that incomes have evened out somewhat.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 3, 2009 2:36 PM

« Co-op of the Day: 59 Pineapple Street, #5I Streetlevel: Makeover at Former Curves Space »

April 2, 2009

House of the Day: 29 Maple Street

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