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April 6, 2009

Wrestling with Fort Greene's Transformation

In a first-person piece in The Times this weekend, artist Nelson George laments how Fort Greene has changed since he and his black artist contemporaries put down roots in the leafy brownstone neighborhood more than two decades ago. We're interested to hear how the essay struck readers. What we thought was missing from the article was an acknowledgment of the current generation of black artists and intellectuals in the neighborhood and how they feel about the composition of the neighborhood. A mention of a place like Madiba where the diversity of the area is on full display, for example, would have added some valuable context for his discussions of the clientele at the Brooklyn Moon. Then again, this wasn't meant to have been anything more than one man's coming to terms with the changes around him. Thoughts?
Fort Greene: Strangers on His Street [NY Times]
Photo by niznoz

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Comments

Why did you put this piece on?? Because you saw the traction on the other thread! I wonder how long before it gets nasty in here? Brownstoner= Head Chief of Covert Race/Class Warfare!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at April 6, 2009 10:09 AM

As someone who was on the scene, I think Nelson George's piece did an excellent job of describing the perspective of the black media, music and arts professionals who emerged in that period, in Fort Greene, which as he says was a center for creative young black people. I remember the incredible talents, the parties, the beautiful women and cool brothers, the great art and also our great hunger to succeed. Mr. George correctly noted that many have moved on to other places, but also many remain. But there's no doubt the area has changed, and it's strange and annoying to sometimes get "Oh oh, tall black man" looks from white people on the same streets where we once happily reigned. I would never have imagined it back then.

Posted by: East New York at April 6, 2009 10:13 AM

I'm usually pretty tired of the "the times-they-are-a-changin" pieces that the NY Times loves to run, but this one was interesting in that it at least gave mention to the previous generation that experienced their own sort of change.

Change happens, especially in cities...but from some of the Times' previous articles you'd assume that change is some sort of scary newcomer.

Posted by: collin85 at April 6, 2009 10:16 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, East New York. This could be a very interesting thread if everyone can do a similar job of keeping their cool while being honest but respectful.

Posted by: brownstoner at April 6, 2009 10:20 AM

As one of the white newcomers to the area (3 years ago), I had the same reaction, where I felt that he intentionally failed to mention areas of the neighborhood where good creative enrgy and diversity are on full display - such as Madiba, all of the events at BAM, and Habana Outpost in the summer to name a few. Also, he bemoans the loss of an Ethiopian restaurant which he never visited, but fails to mention that a brand new Ethiopian restaurant just opened within spitting distance of the old one.

Posted by: TD at April 6, 2009 10:22 AM

I'm a white guy who grew up in downtown brooklyn, always had a friend or two in ftgreene, and live there today. I may not have ever been a part of black culture in ftgreene :), but I certainly appreciated it and do feel like ftgreene has lost much of its spirit.

The author wonders himself whether old Italian guys in SoBro would feel the same way...and yea I bet they do.

Part of it is a race thing, yes it's comforting to see people who look like you. I think the biggest factor is the cultural difference...and yes some of the old culture is gone. There are countries where cultures evolve very slowly and in a more nuanced way. This is Brooklyn though and things can change very quick.

Nice article :)

Posted by: ftgreenepark at April 6, 2009 10:24 AM

No problem. Success in life is determined in large part on how one deals with change, I tend to believe. Fort Greene has changed, and while I'll never forget the past, time marches on and I'm ready for whatever the future may bring.

Posted by: East New York at April 6, 2009 10:24 AM

It's interesting that the Times also ran a piece in the Arts section about LJ Davis who wrote a couple of books about the experience of outsiders moving into this neghborhood in the '70s. One of the books was just reissued with a forward from Jontahan Lethem.

Posted by: crank at April 6, 2009 10:27 AM

I'm very torn. I thought the article was a wonderful piece and Mr. george George White people in older neighborhoods felt as they changed also. He truly sees it is a universal phenomenon and thought he is regretful about it, he isn't angry. I loved his description of Fort Greene and I enjoyed the article with more than a twinge that as a White person who moved to Crown Heights, I played my own role is the changing of the neighborhood. But I also believe in becoming part of the neighborhood,and community- not changing it- it's an amazing process, and a wonderful feeling to be made welcome into your neighbor's house.

One of the things I've always loved about NY's many neighborhoods and districts was that they were so different and diverse. Going from one neighborhood to another to another was like walking the world. Sadly most people didn't revel in our differences, they made them into weapons of fear and distrust.

Maybe the greater lesson is that there is no way to stop change, and maybe we shouldn't want to. But still, Fort Greene must have been some place and I, for one, find the blanding of NYC very sad. Maybe the lady who gave him the "scary tall Black man" look will read his article and understand, it works both ways.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 10:28 AM

I think Nelson George was right in saying that Fort Greene's black creative community was able to invent itself in ways that Harlem just couldn't, at the time. I was spending time in both communities then, and FG definitely had the creative energy. For a while, it seemed like everyone who was creative was there, and not just the celebs. Fashion designers, stylists, classical musicians, poets and home decor people. It seemed like if you asked any up and coming black person in any creative field, they either lived in FG, or wanted to live there, or hung out there. They also were as much on the "South" streets, as anywhere else. It was known as quite the buppy neighborhood for years. Much of that creative energy, along with the people, seems to have migrated back to Harlem, especially below 125th St, starting in the Mt. Morris Park area moving west. But, when prices peaked, Brooklyn started to look really good again for many of these same people who had left in the late 90's. What goes around, comes around.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at April 6, 2009 10:34 AM

The thing that I think the author slightly missed and I am sure most of the comments will definitely miss, is that the article/story isn't really about race, neighborhoods or NYC - what the article is really about is universal - its called aging.....

Posted by: fsrg at April 6, 2009 10:38 AM

While Mr. George focuses on his experience in Fort Greene, I believe this article touches on a broader theme that he quickly acknowledges in his reference to East Flatbush and Canarsie: the constant change in New York City neighborhoods.

It just so happens that this past weekend I hosted a party at my house of my college buddies on the ocassion of the 30th anniversary of our graduation from Cooper Union's Engineering School in Greenwich Village. At that time, the Engineering School was completely dominated by working-class Irish, Italian and Jewish kids from the outer boroughs (the so-called "white ethnics"). At my party, the talk centered on two topics: the change in New York City, and the change in the economy.

When we graduated, I was the only one in my gang of about 25 to stay in New York. Everybody else wanted out for two reasons: a) it appeared to all that NYC was quickly descending into the abyss of violence and deterioration and b) everyone wanted an engineering job with one of the big corporations like IBM, AT&T, HP, etc., all of whom had their facilities in greener pastures (literally and figuratively). They believed that they were set for life if they took a postion with one of these companies.

Well, things have certainly changed in 30 years!! Some had not been back in Brooklyn in many, many years, and they marvelled at the changes as I took them on a tour of Park Slope. At the same time, there was constant talk of survival in these very same corporations. One of my buddies told me that IBM had cut alot of positions at his location, but offered them jobs in their new facility in Bangalore, India - and their salaries would be adjusted downwards to the level prevalent in this location!!

As ENY stated, time marches on, and things change.

Posted by: benson at April 6, 2009 10:41 AM

"This could be a very interesting thread if everyone can do a similar job of keeping their cool while being honest but respectful."

Welcome to La-La Land where pixie dust make things "all better". From the race based clap trap from Brooklynian to "acknowledgment of the current generation of black artists and intellectuals in the neighborhood and how they feel about the composition of the neighborhood"???? Brownstoner I love how the way you weave in and out it's all Bullshit!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: Return of The What at April 6, 2009 10:42 AM

If ethnic cuisine like Madiba is the best example of Diversity on display in FG, then you are pretty reinforcing the writers sentiment.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 6, 2009 10:43 AM

interesting point fsgr. sometimes whiney "back in the day-ers" can get annoying (tho im not calling this guy that). just something in general. yeah we get it things were so much better back then.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 6, 2009 10:47 AM

Actually Colonel Steve, Madiba is an amazing example of diversity in this neighborhood. Most nights it features one of the most "mixed", for lack of a better word, clienteles you will see anywhere. And its just a great hang where folks from the whole spectrum of the neighborhood have a great time together. I think this article was a pretty level headed exploration of the themes of loss and change. Bravo to Nelson George for writing it and to most of us for being able to discuss it civilly. I moved to FT Greene/Clinton Hill 8 years ago and the neighborhood has radically changed since then, but many of the things that brought me here remain: families, community, artistic vibe, architecture. These things are all alive and well in Ft Greene/Clinton Hill.

Posted by: wasder at April 6, 2009 10:50 AM

It was a nice piece, a bit melancholic I suppose. Funny thing is, the writer moved to FG somewhat late in life and has lived here for about 24 years or so. 30 or 35 years before he arrived, the neighborhood was completely different racially as well. Things do change relatively quickly.

I also think fsrq hit upon a good point that the author did not necessarily focus on consciously, this is a piece about aging in many ways.

The thing I do love about FG and CHill is that they are truly diverse places. What I like, and probably value even more than the loss of artists to high rent, is the diversity of in-tact families (i.e. lots of moms AND dads with their kids), black, white and mixed race, that you see regularly in these neighborhoods.

Posted by: 1842 at April 6, 2009 10:59 AM

I don't think anyone would want to go back to the bad old days of violence in NYC- but that doesn't mean we should forget the good things either. NYC was called the Great Melting Pot- but in fact people didn't become one globby homogenous mass- NYC was a place of cultural richness and diversity such as you would never find anywhere else. It still is- but my regret is that much of our culture is being dumbed down, and disneyfied. If Bloomberg had his way, NYC would be a theme Park- look at what they want to do with Coney Island. Even today you can go there and have a great time (yes, as shabby as some people think it is) and not spend a fortune. Once Thor gets through with it you'll need to hock your house to spend a family day there.

Look at all the great business districts (let alone the distinctive neighborhoods) that have waned and all but disappeared in Manhattan- the garment district, the Flower District, the Trim District, the Bridal District, etc. The city is much poorer for their loss.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 11:01 AM

"look at what they want to do with Coney Island. "

Yeah bxgirl, look what they did to Times Square. I ain't being facetious either.

Posted by: denton at April 6, 2009 11:04 AM

Me neither, denton. I remember the Great White Way.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 11:07 AM

The article brought back a lot of memories of my short stay in Ft. Greene.

In the late 1980's our first apartment was a parlor/ground floor duplex on Lafayette and Adelphi. The only black artists we met were some of the actors from "She's Gotta Have It," when a filmmaker friend shot a short in our living room. What we liked about the neighborhood was that it was pretty friendly, like Richmond where we had last lived.

Our landlord, who lived above us, was a Mobil executive and black, his wife a white homemaker; we are white. There weren't many other white people in the neighborhood. We met a lot of neighborhood children since we lived next to their ringleader, Dawn, who was incessant in her visits. We would have small groups of girls into our small backyard and do stuff like have tea parties and teach them how to do cartwheels.

The place had a bidet in the ground floor bath. We never used it but were surprised one day to find that Daw was demonstrating its use as a water fountain to the two little girls she'd brought with her that day.

One of our roommates was very absent-minded and frequently went to the bodega without locking the gate under the stoop. One day my sister and I came home to see a black man in a pastel green, 1970's style, wide-brimmed, plastic-straw hat emerging from the apartment. He was carrying a gym bag and pushed quickly past us. We didn't think mush of it since people constantly knocked on our door or stopped us in the street asking for food or money. Turned out hat guy had pulled a knife on my sister's boyfriend and taken a bunch of costume jewelry and other junk. Our look through mug shots at the police departement was fruitless, but later we identified the guy from an Andres Serrano photo where he sported the same hat.

Posted by: Bessie at April 6, 2009 11:11 AM

Bxgrl and Denton;

I agree with your sentiments, but I'm not sure I would pin it on Bloomberg. It's a nationwide trend in our culture, and a large topic. I used to love to go to Broadway shows, but I'm really turned off these days. Many of the newer shows are nothing more than Vegas-style revue's.

Posted by: benson at April 6, 2009 11:12 AM

There hasn't been a single weekend NY TIMES section in the past year that hasn't worshipped Ft. Greene. I'm a resident and I can be biased (pro-) about my neighborhood, but this is getting ridiculous and suspicious even for me. WHAT IS IN IT FOR THE TIMES? I don't believe they simply have a psychotic, unrelenting crush on the area. Did they buy an office building here? Do all the editors own here? What's going on?

Secondly, some of my wealthier black friends are moving to Ft Greene from Manhattan (music industry people mostly). What are they considered, in this oldtimer/newbie, black/white kindergarten fingerpainting of the area?

Lastly, a lot of this conflict isn't new.
1870's: "As Manhattan became more crowded, the poor as well as the well-off made Fort Greene their home, and the unoccupied areas of Myrtle Avenue became a shanty town known as "Young Dublin"."
!920's: "Fort Greene in the early 20th century became a significant cultural destination. After the original Brooklyn Academy of Music in Brooklyn Heights burned down in 1903, the current one was built in Fort Greene, and opened in 1908 with a production of Charles Gounod's Faust featuring Enrico Caruso and Geraldine Farrar (Caruso suffered a throat hemorrhage while singing at BAM in 1920 and died several days later). At the time, BAM was the most complexly designed cultural center in Greater New York"
(wikipedia)

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 11:20 AM

This is actually the most interesting part of the page,considering it refers to a NY Times article, but from 150 years ago:

New York Times, 1858, "Homes of the Poor" "The poverty stricken condition of the inhabitants residing in the Fort Green (sic)/Clinton Hill district] of Brooklyn render it almost an unknown land,". Focusing on a certain section of the east Brooklyn area defined as "between Flushing and Dekalb Avenues, as far east as Classon Avenue and as far west as Ryerson, extending across Fulton Avenue," the Times item said the real estate boom has resulted in class conflict among a majority of the area's longtime residents (identified as "renters or squatters") and its new neighbors—middle to upper income homeowners (identified as out-priced Manhattanites attracted to the spatial wealth of Brooklyn and able to afford the high price of its grand scale Neo-Gothic brownstones.) The paper further explained the conflict as one that had existed for some time, evidenced perhaps by a letter to the editor of a local Brooklyn paper published prior to the Times profile. The author, a new homeowner, wrote "Perchance there are but few places about more desirable for residences, or more pleasant for our evening walks...(but) on every side filthy shanties are permitted to be erected from which issue all sorts of offensive smells...It is indeed a fact that many of the inmates of these hovels keep swine, cattle, etc. in their cellars and not an unusual circumstance to witness these animals enjoying side by side with their owners the cheering rays of the sun; whilst offal and filth of the assorted family is suffered to collect about their premises and endanger the lives of those in their neighborhood by its sickening and deadly effluvia." [3]

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 11:26 AM

I know, benson! Seems like we have to have more glitz, more lights, more stuff- less story and music. You're right, it isn't all Bloomberg's fault- it just seems to me he has facilitated the process though.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 11:27 AM

I agree with @benson - this is a nation-wide phenom. I lived in Chicago for 20 years and 2 in Pittsburgh before moving to Brooklyn (been here for 10), and I saw the same things happening there.

The demographic and mass cultural shifts have had a huge impact on the way people interact with each other and their environment. The privatization of entertainment and the atomization of culture, a dramatic reduction in crime, a significant increase in material wealth, the relaxation of institutionalized racism and classism, and the shift of the economy from mass-industrial to service and online have all contributed.

Places change, especially cities, all the time and its not going to stop. I'm sure the Lenape (Native Americans) were complaining when the Dutch showed up and people haven't stopped since.

Posted by: neilw at April 6, 2009 11:31 AM

Neil,

The Lenape in Manhattan must have really started complaining when the Canarsie band -- who lived here in Brooklyn and had no real claim to the land themselves -- flipped the island to the Dutch right out from under them. So some things really never change in NY real estate.

Posted by: slopefarm at April 6, 2009 11:57 AM

Bessie, loved your snapshot of Ft. Greene life--weird enough to feel real. At our kitchen table, Spouse found Nelson George's "Oooh, scary black man" comment kind of funny; he went to St. John's with George, and recalled him even in college as a tall, skinny guy (already a promising writer) who wouldn't have seemed menacing to anybody, much less a white gal circa 2009 walking the streets of Fort Greene. (Sometimes I think I should give the "ooh, scary" look to nerdy or aging black guys on the street just to boost their ego a little.) As it happened, maybe Nelson's "scared" white lady just had indigestion or was preoccupied thinking about her taxes, two things that have been shadowing my brow lately.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at April 6, 2009 11:57 AM

Brenda- join the millions of us "enjoying" life in the days before April 15 :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 12:00 PM

Brenda-
Thank you for saying what I wanted to say in a much nicer way.

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 12:32 PM

Brenda, i think you dismiss too lightly the 'scary black man' sentiment. The 'scary black man' reaction is very real, i get it all the time.

Crossing the street to avoid proximate contact, waiting at well lit intersections until the threat passes, clutching one's purse when actually crossing paths are just some of the behaviors I encounter on a regular basis. I'm pushing 40 and hardly consider myself the dangerous type.

Don't get me wrong, not all white women walk around like their on the set of Scary Movie. I've had quite a few stare me down dead with not a tinge of fear on their face. The "Oooh, scary black man" look replaced with, "Oooh, Black Man!! Wonder if he's straight?" look. Maybe that's me stroking my ego. But far better than your suggestion of reinforcing a negative stereotype just to boost some random nerdy or aging black guys ego.

I honestly believe that if our current President was walking down any one of FGs streets after 10 pm, wearing a winter coat and hat, he would probably get the same reactions i described.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 6, 2009 12:44 PM

I think we all face the world with our own set of filters, but I've seen that reaction too many times to ignore. I've seen white women cringe when a Black man walks into a store and I've seen Black people get hostile when a White person walks into a room. It has to be one of the saddest commentaries on the human race I've ever seen. We all do it- some far more than others, and some with far greater reason than others, but the result is a lot of anger, frustration and misunderstanding. I think the election of Obama was the first ray of hope I've seen in a long time. I'm hoping this is the opportunity to open our minds and rethink some of our ideas about one other, and become more perceptive and understanding.

I have to say, Col. Austin, if I saw you walking down the street I would probably say "Oooh, Black Man!! Wonder if he's straight?" because, we women need all the straight men we can get :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:02 PM

Colonel, so ARE you straight?

On another note:
I'm a 6 ft woman. I recently crossed the street because a young man (boy?) approx 5'5" in height was approaching behind me, quickly. This was on the Upper East side, it was late, dark, there was no one around. He was a rich looking preppy with slim shoulders, probably weighed 20 pounds less than me. Maybe he thought he wasn't a threat, and could approach me quickly without getting a jumpy response. He was shocked that I started to crossed the street, and gave me a quizzical look when I glared at him. Maybe he was gay and didn't even think about it from my perspective. But all i could think was "You are such a d--k. You should know you're scaring me." Because men rape women all the time, regardless of weight, height, age, color; and I'm gonna cross the street with total disregard for your feelings, because my safety is at stake.

So to all black men out there who think women are responding to their color: they might just be responding to your gender.

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 1:06 PM

alol @ bxgirl philosophizing about racism then finishing her post with a homophobic remark!

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 6, 2009 1:07 PM

I get nervous when anyone gets too close- the sense of my personal space being invaded gets my antenna up. But that happens to me no matter male, female or canine. Because there is nothing more embarrassing than a poodle sticking his nose under your dress.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:10 PM

homophobic? no way. Are you becoming an old paranoiac rob :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:12 PM

rob- Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality, homosexuals,[1][2][3] or individuals perceived as homosexual.

I told you last week- don't start in with me.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:17 PM

Uh . . . Pitbull, what was homophobic about "we women need all the straight men we can get"? It's no secret we girls need our men to be physically attracted to us for the whole sex/love thing to go down (no pun intended). IF anything, my gorgeous gay friends are more scared of straight women staring at them with lust in their eyes, than the other way around!

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 1:17 PM

"IF anything, my gorgeous gay friends are more scared of straight women staring at them with lust in their eyes, than the other way around!"

Damn, why don't I get those stares???? I'm straight.

Posted by: benson at April 6, 2009 1:22 PM

benson- how many times have women on this site lusted after you? It's a subtle lust.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:25 PM

This has taken an interesting turn.

That said, if I'm walking up behind a woman I usually make a cough sound or something before I get too close so as to not scare the hell out of them if they aren't aware someone's behind them.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 1:27 PM

Rob, bxgrl's comment isn't even in the same room with homophobic. Come on.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at April 6, 2009 1:28 PM

Well, if that is the case, then I say: keep the stares coming, ladies!!

Sorry to digress, Mr.B.

Posted by: benson at April 6, 2009 1:29 PM

You wouldn't believe what goes through my mind if I pass a good looking black/asian/latin guy. Sorry, getting too far off topic.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 1:31 PM

oh jeez people i was only kidding..

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 6, 2009 1:36 PM

Benson, that is odd. I've never heard of that. I mean, you're straight, for god's sake! What more do these women want?

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 1:36 PM

SPRING FEVER HATH SPRUNG (even in the oddest places).

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 1:37 PM

Doesn't that beg the question about how our perceptions are created? Is that a fundamental flaw in our natures that we can't understand that what we see may not agree with what the other person sees? Tomatoe, tomahtoe.

For me the heart of the essay was "I USED to look at the older white residents of ethnically changing Brooklyn enclaves like Canarsie and East Flatbush and wonder how they felt strolling through their neighborhood. Now I feel their sense of loss, their memories, their fear of the future."

It's that universal nervousness over change and everyone gets it. I think we tend to look more at our differences and not at our similarities. Maybe if we did, we could stop working against each other. Not be afraid of our differences.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:41 PM

He's married :-( otherwise we would have engaged in a tug of war over him (he wears a borsalino!)

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:43 PM

"and I'm gonna cross the street with total disregard for your feelings, because my safety is at stake."

True IZ, anyone can have a gun anytime, and rape is committed by all ages and ethnicities. I don't get the whole crossing the street thing, what does it accomplish besides showing fear?

But I agree w DIBS, as a man and a large one at that I try and be respectful when approaching women from behind especially at night by making noise and more especially by not passing close.

"Because there is nothing more embarrassing than a poodle sticking his nose under your dress."

Bxgirl, are you discriminating against poodles?

Posted by: denton at April 6, 2009 1:51 PM

Well, I am a cat person :-)

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 1:55 PM

I've come to think a lot of the interactions we perceive as racism, sexism, and homophobia are just people reacting to "the Other." I'll never know what it's like for a young woman to walk down the street on a hot day (ohhhh baby), just like I'll always wonder how to befriend blacks in a loving way. I transferred some time ago: when I left some of the staff said, "Well, so-and-so can take over" - the only other white male on staff. As D.L Hughley said, "I'll give you sickle cell and the big dick myth in exchange for being rich and boring."

Posted by: infinitejester at April 6, 2009 2:01 PM

"I'm a 6 ft woman. I recently crossed the street because a young man (boy?) approx 5'5" in height was approaching behind me, quickly. This was on the Upper East side, it was late, dark, there was no one around. He was a rich looking preppy with slim shoulders, probably weighed 20 pounds less than me. Maybe he thought he wasn't a threat, and could approach me quickly without getting a jumpy response. He was shocked that I started to crossed the street, and gave me a quizzical look when I glared at him."

See how this thread descended into crap! I love walking behind the retards! This is my neighborhood and I will not alter my behavior because someone feels "threaten"! If it bothers you so much maybe there is a neighborhood to your liking. This what the retards really think about Black people but afraid to tell someone in their face.

Now here is an example about Brownstoner's Covert Race/Class crap!

House of the Day: 20 Clifton Place

...From what we hear, this is just a few doors down from a notoriously bad drug house on the block. That said, if it turns out that there are some architectural details inside that are still intact, this could be an interesting buy if the price comes down a bit.

This is in Black neighborhood in Bed Stuy right? and now look at this post!

Co-op of the Day: 205 Park Place

"The details—mantel, moldings, original floors—give this one-bedroom at 205 Park Place in Prospect Heights a nice vibe. The railroad layout is probably suboptimal for some, with the bathroom through the bedroom in the rear. We have no idea if they are the same size, but the last three apartments to sell in the building went for between $420,000 and $440,000, suggesting that the asking price of $435,000 for this one has some basis in history."

Now if the house in Bed Stuy was in Prospect Heights.....

You see a clear example of the Race Baiting that goes one here....

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at April 6, 2009 2:17 PM

Since I hit puberty, i have noticed that women clutch their purses, cross the street, look uncomfortable when I pass. As a nerdy and shy teenager who was just becoming aware of what being a (mixed) minority meant, this was really tough on me. One occasion actually made me cry (when a woman did a 180 and ran back up the subway stairs as I approached. I was wearing a blazer and tie for god's sake).

My father (who is white and never dealt with this) said "just smile". Trust me, it does not work.

Anyway, I went through a long phase of being overly aware and obsessive about this phenomenon, even trying to ask a few ladies what was so scary about a kid in catholic school uniform. Also not a great idea.

Over the years I've gotten used to it, and don't think about it too much anymorebut it still sucks. I've realized as a man who looks black, latino or even middle eastern (i guess depending on the observer's likes/fears...) there's some stuff you must deal with even if you don't accept it.

I know I didn't add much to the convo, but this discussion brought up a lot of old feelings for me

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 2:20 PM

First of all What...that house is in Clinton Hill. Secondly, if its down the street from "a notorious bad drug house" then its down the street from a notorious bad drug house, NO MORE, NO LESS. Nothing mentioned about race or class.

Who's implying that other than you?????

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 2:23 PM

"First of all What...that house is in Clinton Hill. Secondly, if its down the street from "a notorious bad drug house" then its down the street from a notorious bad drug house, NO MORE, NO LESS. Nothing mentioned about race or class."

The house on Clifton is in a Gentrificating Neighborhood (Make me sick saying that)! Plus it's a house you retarded moron! There are 3 super Condo projects going right there (2 on Greene and one on Clifton)! How would you give that more weight that a 1 bedroom condo??? The "Bad drug house" got burned down last summer you ignorant Assnut!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at April 6, 2009 2:30 PM

And Prospect Heights sure as hell isn't all white.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 2:30 PM

WTF are you talking about??? Take a pill.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 2:32 PM

"How would you give that more weight that a 1 bedroom condo???"

A house is usually worth more than a one bedroom condo because its usually about 2,500-4,000 sq ft instead of 600-900.

Next question, "retarded moron?"

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 2:39 PM

Yes, Fort Greene has changed a lot. I'm glad the Times has noted it.

In my experience, there's something kind of overwhelming about a particular type of newcomer to Fort Greene. Having spent a fair amount of time there in 2001 and 2002 (around when the Corcoran office opened) and then not gone there at all until this past summer, I am surprised to see so many young, white professionals -- the kind who shop in boutiques such as Stuart & Wright. I say this even though I have a lot in common with them (I'm old, white, professional, and I window shop in the boutiques).

Also, I have to add something to the scared white lady discussion: I realize this is a real phenomenon. But twice recently I have been staring off into the middle distance, totally preoccupied with some kind of internal crazy lady dialogue, when suddenly I've been startled by something and suddenly moved to the side or -- in one case-- clutched my coat, and by extension my bag, because of a huge gust of wind, and then suddenly someone says something to me, and I come to, and it's a black man who thinks I've been staring at him and that I moved away from him on purpose! In one case it was a 50-ish black man in Harlem who looked very intellectual and artistic. I was dismayed but by the time I even figured out what was going on we were both halfway down the block away from each other. So I'm sorry!

Posted by: mopar at April 6, 2009 2:41 PM

I seriously doubt the woman walking down South Portland in the middle of the day was afraid of this man because he was tall and black. Get over yourself Nelson George. Sorry to disappoint but me and all of my white girl friends are not afraid of you. You are no different than any other man walking down the street. Not everyone wants to make eye contact with every stranger they walk by.
What:
you are the only race/class baiter I see here

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 2:45 PM

Fantastic article and we really enjoy most of the comments well except for that usual moronic stuff from you know who.
Change is inevitable and is in fact the only thing that is constant. Fort Greene is gentrified but it still has some diversity and a beating pulse that we hope will survive.

DIBS do us a favor and pay no attention to you know who...his pathetic attempts to make this a "race war" has failed. Please avoid him.

Posted by: pierre de taille at April 6, 2009 2:57 PM

this is a test,

my last 5 comments (over the last few days) never appeared

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 3:01 PM

of course as soon as i submitted my test comment, the original comment appears at 2:20 like it was there all along.

Mr. B is out to get me. (i'm kidding)

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 3:05 PM

How do all these women who say they treat all men as equal threats walk down any Brooklyn sidewalk? Do you just keep zig-zagging every time you see a guy? After all that ducking and dodging, how do you finally hook with a guy?

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 6, 2009 3:08 PM

I don't treat men as a threat period. I don't put myself in situations that make me feel threatened. ie walking down a street in the middle of the night alone. I will sometimes cross the street when I see a group of men..whether they be teenagers, construction workers, or "tall black" men becuase I don't feel like having them all turn and stare at me and make comments like I'm a sports car instead of a person.

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 3:16 PM

Colonel, now you're just being an obnoxious provocateur. If you ever have a kid who happens to be a girl, or a niece, or any young female close to you, ask her what it's like to walk down dark streets at night alone, when there is NO ONE AROUND, and see a guy approaching you. Educate yourself.

And don't compare hooking up with rape. That's way beyond obnoxious and provocative. Especially considering how recently we had a rape on St Felix.

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 3:16 PM

Troy...interesting story now, maybe not so when you were young. Thanks for sharing it.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 6, 2009 3:17 PM

I can see how why its a sensitive topic but I'm a white guy and I've had women give me a nervous look or quicken their pace when I'm behind them on an empty street. We live in a city you don't have to feel guilty for watching out for yourself. As men its something we have to deal with occasionally. I don't take it personally.

Posted by: eh at April 6, 2009 3:21 PM

Troy that must have been really difficult and frustrating but thank goodness you managed to beat it. You are right smiling doesn't help much but just wondering how did you overcome it during your teens? Sorry to digress but this is so relevant in our situation.

Posted by: pierre de taille at April 6, 2009 3:27 PM

I always assumed on any NYC street you have to be aware of everyone and everything around you. I don't assume anything about anyone- I've had the toughest Black teenager making me take a seat next to him so I wouldn't be annoyed by the two white guys having an elbow fight on the train and the black guy outside the Foodtown who ran up to me and grabbed my purse yelling at me to put my money away. While he stuffed it back in my bag. The only thing I was, was embarrassed and grateful.

boofer- just because you aren't that way, don't think it doesn't happen. It does and its a mistake to think racism isn't real and out there. I've seen it, experienced it (interracial marriage) and so have many of my family and friends.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 3:33 PM

I think it's important to be sensitive about racism (whether real or perceived); just as it's important to be sensitive about women's vulnerability as targets of sexual and physical attacks (whether real or perceived).

I'm glad that fort greene brings up these issues so intensely. It's not comfortable. That's what makes it NYC, not Main St USA. It's a home to everyone, and that takes everyone's extra effort.

Thanks to the boys out there who get what I'm saying and make those "coughing" noises to let me know they're sneaking up on me. I've found myself making the same kind of effort for women who seemed to get nervous hearing my footsteps being them.

FYI crossing the street is useful because it puts cars between you, and just being in the middle of the street can help too (men have mentioned doing this in the bad old days in rough neighborhoods).

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 3:35 PM

Not putting down anyones upset with having random "white people" be afraid of you - but that is on of those things that I just have only a little sympathy for (except in terms of false accusations or exclusion from stores, taxis etc...)

There are FAR worse things in life then having pure strangers be "afraid" of you on a dark street. Like for example not having strangers be afraid of you on a dark street.

Posted by: fsrg at April 6, 2009 3:43 PM

There was actually a group of drunk white frat-type guys on S. Portland one night recently, I guess spillover from Moe's. They scared me, as they always do, and I walked in the street to get home. It's just funny how it relates to Nelson George's story -- same block, different situation, but same conclusion: there goes the neighborhood.

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 3:46 PM

I think the point was people stereotyping and being automatically afraid of you because of skin color, not a question of oversensitivity.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 3:49 PM

"DIBS do us a favor and pay no attention to you know who...his pathetic attempts to make this a "race war" has failed. Please avoid him."

Look Eurotrash I did not post this crap. I illustrated Brownstoner's Covert Race/Class Warfare crap! If you took the time to think about it maybe you response would've been different. Plus I did not post anything here and this thread STILL reverted to issues of RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What does that tell you?????????? Come on Pepe! Tell us!!!

From: Wrestling with Fort Greene's Transformation

To: Also, I have to add something to the scared white lady discussion: I realize this is a real phenomenon. But twice recently I have been staring off into the middle distance, totally preoccupied with some kind of internal crazy lady dialogue, when suddenly I've been startled by something and suddenly moved to the side or -- in one case-- clutched my coat, and by extension my bag, because of a huge gust of wind, and then suddenly someone says something to me, and I come to, and it's a black man who thinks I've been staring at him and that I moved away from him on purpose! In one case it was a 50-ish black man in Harlem who looked very intellectual and artistic. I was dismayed but by the time I even figured out what was going on we were both halfway down the block away from each other. So I'm sorry!

See how "Slippery" this type of crap gets but Noooooooooooo! The What is a Race Baiter!

Hey Pepe Suck balls!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: Return of The What at April 6, 2009 4:05 PM

Pierre,

I didn't overcome it in my teens. Adding to this specific issue, there was also being followed around stores constantly and even getting chased through Bensonhurst once plus all the myriad issues that come with being mixed and with being black/white but looking latino/middle eastern.... people constantly speak to me in languages I don't understand and of course the really stupid things acquaintances would say when they found out I was half Jamaican/Half italian (please no jerk lasagna jokes).

Anyway, my obsession with almost cataloging the reactions of women in the street didn't really fade until I passed my mid-twenties and couldn't deal with continuing to make myself upset over something that will never go away. women do get mugged and raped and many other bad things. if I have to deal with their discomfort at my approach then I have to. It's not malicious on their part, it just is what it is (not saying i completely accept it, it still sucks). But there are a lot more ignorant and a few malicious things I have had to deal with.

Alright I'll cut it short now before this becomes Troy's Catharsis on B'Stoner

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 4:05 PM

Bxgrl
I am not denying racism. It is alive and well and it goes both ways. I'm just saying if you have the idea in your mind that white women are afraid of you...any reaction they have to you can be perceived as a sign of fear whether it is or it isn't. If I smile will they think it's a "nervous smile", if I'm looking down am I trying to avoid eye contact or am I trying not to step in shit? If I turn around and walk the other way is it because I'm avoiding them, or did I just realize I forgot something at my house? If I cross the street could it possibly be because I live there? Maybe I saw some period details in the trash and wanted to get a closer look...

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 4:08 PM

Troy- you really have my sympathies. Several of my friends are racially mixed and I've seen what they have gone through.

And yes, re reactions- it is what it is, but like you I still don't find it acceptable. The best you can do is realize those people suffer and lose out because of their ignorance. You can't fix them unless they want to be fixed and most of them, sad to say, don't.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 4:12 PM

Alot of "White Women" who may be afraid of random (black) men walking down a dark and lonely street are also quite possibly very happy to walk down the street with the same (scary to others) (black) man - if he wasnt such a "stranger"

Again, there are FAR worse problems (most) people have to face.

For example a very ugly person has to deal with odd looks all the time - no one is holding any charity events for the ugly...

Please come up with some real problems or move back to real issues.

Posted by: fsrg at April 6, 2009 4:15 PM

boofer- I think Mr. George's reaction comes from experience which is the gist of it. there are people who will react negatively to a Black person despite never having any bad experience or even contact with them. I don't claim any special knowledge but I do have first hand experience with it by virtue of my former marriage. I don't want to dredge up old bad memories so let me just say, I think Nelson George speaks from experience. It may be that he just assumes the worst now, but he's not reacting without some basis in fact.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 4:19 PM

racism is a real issue and a real problem, fsrq.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 4:21 PM

Troy thanks and our sympathies as well..la vie la est toujours dure :(

Posted by: pierre de taille at April 6, 2009 4:25 PM

True bxgrl - but if the only manifestation of racism is that solo women are scared of random strangers on dark streets then it wouldnt be - IMHO

Posted by: fsrg at April 6, 2009 4:27 PM

FSRQ, I agree strangers are entitled to their opinions. However, these behaviors extend to local shop keepers as well. I remember going to Thirst a few weeks after it opened. We were having a party and my wife sent me for wine. There were a half dozen patrons and 2 people working the store. I was greeted as I came in and proceeded to walk around trying to find a wine I was familiar with. By no means am I'm not a wine expert, in fact all i could remember was Yellow Tail and I walked around looking for the label.

Walking... Walking.. Walking I don't see Yellow Tail anywhere. All the while the 2 workers can't take their eyes off me. Half dozen patrons, some looking for assistance, and all the workers could do was fixate on me. By now I realized something else. My wife sent me to the store saying that I shouldn't have to spend more than $30 for 2 bottles of wine. However, there was a problem, none of the bottles or racks had prices on them. Lots of fanciful descriptions, but no prices.. At no time did they ever ask to assist me and frankly left potential customers waiting unnecessarily while they keep a watchful eye on me.

Now I'm guilty of being a cheapskate, but I'm no criminal. Forgive me for not wanting to spend $40 for a bottle of wine for a bunch a of folks that will be too sloshed to know the difference. But, I don't think that should have warranted the level of negative attention I received from the a new business trying to make it in Fort Greeene. That was a huge turn-off for me and I took my business over to the liquor store on Vanderbilt where they gladly let me behind the glass. It seems they have no problem telling the difference between the good guys and the bad guys.... And they actually had the Yellow Tail I was looking for.

You repeat these types of experiences over and over, and it's easy to see why some people don't feel welcome.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 6, 2009 4:33 PM

no need for sympathy, many others have dealt with much worse and everyone goes through some sort of issues, especially during childhood/adolescence.

Boofer brought up a great point-

"I'm just saying if you have the idea in your mind that white women are afraid of you...any reaction they have to you can be perceived as a sign of fear whether it is or it isn't."

I did get to a point where I was starting to see "the fear" everywhere. Then I just couldn't be bothered worrying about it all the time. OK, all done now

Pierre, please translate

"la vie la est toujours dure "

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 4:36 PM

I worked with this Haitian architect for several years. At one point his family got a cat from the pound. He said he thought the cat was racist because it kept running and hiding when they came near it. I think he was dead serious, too.

Posted by: Bessie at April 6, 2009 4:37 PM

Ok quick anecdote to illustrate my point and I'm out.
A few months ago I was on the G train. A group of people get on and sit next to me. They happen to be black. A woman also gets on who is very pregnant so I get up so she can sit down. When she gets off I don't sit back down cause I'm getting off at the next stop. The man I had been originally sitting next to starts loudly talking about how I don't wanna sit next to him because he's black and how every time he gets on the train it's the same thing. White women afraid of the black man blah blah blah. I was infuriated because it was obviously untrue but I did not give him the satisfaction of a response.
Sometimes these feelings do come from experience but can also come from a perceived experience.

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 4:41 PM

I liked Nelson George's piece in the Times and think, as others, that it was as much a commentary about aging and sense of place, as about race specifically. In the Philadelphia of my childhood, I remember a distinct Jewish community that had little to do with anything except my family and relatives and the places they inhabited. And yet when I walk in some areas of that city today, I'm overwhelmed by a sense of Jewish life that is completely at odds with what I see on the street. In any place we've lived in, we overlay our past in a way that skews the present reality. That said, I have lived in Fort Greene since 2000, Park Slope for a decade before that. The changes here are bewildering and so fast. I sometimes feel caught between the outsider I felt myself to be 9 years ago--for completely racial reasons, and in a way I never expected (and perhaps I was naive)--and the outsider I feel today--where did all those expensive strollers come from? I have never lived in a place that is so conscious of racial issues, a place in which I'm constantly testing my reactions to events to make sure I'm not seeing them through an overly race-conscious lens.

But still--I am one of those white women who does glance at the people I see on the street. When I see someone who looks like Nelson George, I relax. If I see a group of teenagers who are using intimidating body-language, I don't relax. It's natural to check out the people we see on the street--it's why crime victims are often those who are using ipods/phones; they're not checking out the people they see.

As for the topic of race in the neighborhood, I don't know. Keep talking?

Posted by: since 2000 at April 6, 2009 4:45 PM

Yeah Boofer, isn't all about assumptions and as you say perceived experience?

Gentleman A assumed you didn't want to sit next to him because he was black. Had this happened to him before? who knows?

Woman B clutches her purse when I walk by because I look black/latino blah blah blah and might mug her. Has she been mugged before? who knows.

How about we all just get over it and move on.

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 4:51 PM

over it

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 4:56 PM

French magazines always have articles about Brooklyn and how unbelievably fabulous it is.

This week, Madame Figaro hypes the Stuart & Wright boutique in Fort Greene. You may have seen the store. It's the one in the old drycleaner's space with the old sign near Habana Outpost. Everything is $400. The article says "Follow the path of Jonathan Lethem over the Brooklyn Bridge..."

Posted by: mopar at April 6, 2009 5:05 PM

I won't get over being followed around the store (and I have seen it done to white people too); absolutely the worst way to enjoy you're shopping experience, especially when you don't enjoy shopping as it is.

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 5:07 PM

The funny thing is that if you're white (like me) but are aware of this behavior by many white people and find it annoying you can compensate in the other direction, as I do. In fact it just goes to show how silly the whole thing is. I wonder how many generations before we look each other in the face to determine who we are looking at/dealing with rather than dealing by skin color.

I know if I'm walking down the block, and I'm thinking of crossing, and at the same time I see three African American kids or a couple of construction workers coming, I go, oops, better wait until I pass by else they'll think I'm a racist who judges them by their skin color, or who perhaps is afraid of them.

No one mentioned the other thing my skinfolks do, that's often commented on, the snapping of the car locks. Used to do the same there, not snap until the coast was clear.

What a way to live, right?

Posted by: denton at April 6, 2009 5:08 PM

Has anybody read "There Goes the Hood" by Lance Freeman?

Great book about gentrification in Harlem and Clinton Hill by an African American architect who teaches at Columbia. He grew up in Harlem and lives in Clinton Hill.

He alludes slightly to the importance of Clinton Hill as the place to be for young artistic black professionals.

My only criticism of the book is that in an effort to understand all aspects of gentrification, good and bad, he underestimates how often renters are displaced.

It's one of the most interesting books I have ever read.

Posted by: mopar at April 6, 2009 5:16 PM

SOOOO not over it (though I love both troy and boofer's responses and think you two should go on a date in Ft Greene park). ANYWAY, I can't be sure but I might have been the woman who'd averted her eyes when passing Nelson George. If he's tall and really handsome in a kind of worn in, intellectual way, then yeah, Nelson, I'm that woman. See, the problem with good looking middle aged guys is that they're tempting, and I'm not single, but wish I was.

I've had men avert their eyes from me too -- usually when their women are nearby -- and it's a sheepish reaction, not wanting trouble. Could that have been it?

Because it really stretches the imagination that a woman in Ft Greene is averting her eyes from people of color. If that is true, that girl must have some serious bruises all over herself bumping into shit, for all the averting she'd have to do, even if she'd just moved there an hour ago. Fort Greene is still, despite all the worry from Nelson to the contrary, a black community with a bunch of salt and pepper thrown in there in the form of lookie-loos and newbies, thanks in great part to all this fantastic press from such places as Brownstoner, Timeout NY, the NY Times (Nelson, you're part of the problem, buddy!). And, apparently, france!!!!

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 5:17 PM

Denton, for a second there, I thought you were suggesting that white people should follow white store owners around the store when they're following African American customers. Now there's an idea!

Posted by: mopar at April 6, 2009 5:18 PM

That's a great idea iz, but that would be a weird date. Me, sitting on a bench and Boofer standing 5 feet away, clutching her purse to her chest.

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 5:45 PM

As a white "frat boy" type living in fort greene I think I probably experience the most overt type of racism. I'm not really complaining or comparing to treatment blacks get so please spare your ranting. I often play basketball on the playgrounds in the neighborhood and am subject to being called names like whitey and snowflake, and generally given little respect. I experienced a new form of immasculation this past weekend - a guy put a move on me that left me practically on my @ss, got up in my face and then kissed me on the cheek. In general I find it amusing, if not somewhat annoying.

Posted by: nycdelisauce at April 6, 2009 5:52 PM

Some people take you looking them in the eye as a challenge. Certain animal species react the same way. I have a very touchy relative- if i say something i know they won't agree with, i tend to look off to the side because this relative with take it as a challenge and get defensive.

It makes no sense to deny Nelson George's feelings or experience the article was his chronicle. It's subjective, and so are our reactions. Whether or not you like what he wrote, at least we're talking about it in ways that I hope will be constructive and enlightening.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 6, 2009 6:01 PM

Delisauce-I didn't know "whitey" was still en vogue. You do have a right to complain though, it still sucks to be treated in a way less than normal because of your color, gender.......

The kiss on the cheek thing is f'n hilarious though.

Posted by: Troy McClure at April 6, 2009 6:02 PM

Deli, at least he didnt kiss your girl on the cheek.

Posted by: iz at April 6, 2009 6:18 PM

Alright, I may guilty of a little embellishment. I get "whiteboy" instead of "whitey". Whitey just sounded better in the context. One positive of the lack of respect on the court is that when I excede expectations I usually get a great response from the crowd - luckily I have a nasty crossover.

Posted by: nycdelisauce at April 6, 2009 6:34 PM

sauce, ya gotta earn the respect on the court. Believe it or not, with that kiss maybe you're getting there. Still you deserve a lot of respect for getting out there and trying. Not everyone would go out on the court and mix it up in the neighborhood. Sometimes those words can be used in respect, it's like another word that has different meanings depending on who uses it and in what environment and how it's used. They're not calling you white MF, see? I used to get called whitey on the court when I was a kid but I was told that was cuz I was blond and very light skinned, there was no animosity. Keep up the good work. And remember the saying about all those fat white guys running around in Knicks T-Shirts... you can talk the talk but can you play the game? Keep playing.

BTW I assume most stoners know who Nelson George is, an excellent writer who has published a number of books on music and culture. In fact he'll be in B&N Court Street tom'w, pimping his new book.
http://store-locator.barnesandnoble.com/author-events/contributor/2072538

Posted by: denton at April 6, 2009 6:58 PM

Troy I'd love to go on a date with you in Ft. Greene Park. I think black and latin men are sexy. Unfortunately I'm married to a pasty white boy.

Posted by: boofer at April 6, 2009 7:40 PM

"la vie la est toujours dure"
Hey Troy the loose translation is life is always tough...as your feelings illustrate.

Posted by: pierre de taille at April 6, 2009 9:23 PM

I like the piece. My only quibble is that he said the restaurant that closed was Ethiopian. Actually it was a Senegalese restaurant. The new restauarant a few doors down is however Ethiopian.

Posted by: mfaruqee at April 6, 2009 10:05 PM

Everybody wants change to stop at their happiest moments, we all want to preserve OUR culture, not necessarily for any reason other than nostalgia... fort greene was home to native americans, then became farmland, a fort with oversight by george washington, then it was the home to the mansions of rich white shipping magnates, it housed a regiment during the civil war, later BAM opened, the williamsburg saving bank building was opened, and all the while the area was host to an astonishing amount of black and white achievement. There was a shift during and after the depression, the area largely became housing for dock workers, and this continued through the 50's. housing became cheap and aesthetically valuable, which lead to the quiet black renaissance mr. george speaks of, mr. george was not born in for greene, spike lee was not born in fort greene, richard wright briefly lived in fort greene in his late 20's while he was waiting for his check from the guggenheim foundation to clear.... my point is, a lot of us want our neighborhoods to reflect our warm memories of those spaces, but that very interest in providing a function for a neighborhood other than what occurs organically is the same, functionaly as development. All of the renewals of fort greene have been organic ones, at least initially, and to listen to all the historic voices of preservation would surely return the land to marshes, or tobacco farm, or mansions, or battleground, on and on... New York is a place in flux, it is liquid, and yes... in times when money flows, manhattan spills over a bit, but it is inexcusable and inflamatory to blame white people as a "race" for this shift in place. George's "get off my lawn" "there goes the neighborhood" attitude is largely a simple case of racism it seems... because those developments, the new construction of "loftlike" apartments? i have news for you. White people dont like those either.

Posted by: brookling at April 26, 2009 8:51 AM

« Playing Ball with the LPC at 120 Lafayette St. Joseph's Planning Gymnasium for Clinton Avenue »

April 6, 2009

Wrestling with Fort Greene's Transformation

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