« Inside Third & Bond: Week 80 House of the Day: 501 Bainbridge Street »
April 16, 2009
Co-op of the Day: 314 Clinton Street, #3
We're not quite sure how a floor-through apartment in a townhouse like this comes out to 1,712 square feet, but that's what the listing for Apartment #3 at 314 Clinton Street says. The interior of the apartment is very attractive, as is the private roof deck that looks out over the neighboring church. Still, $1,350,000 for a single floor of a townhouse seems a little aggressive in this environment, no?
314 Clinton Street, #3 [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
The bedroom area appears to be a massive extension onto what was originally a two-room deep building. I wouldn't pay over a million for an apt. Then again, I don't have a million.
Posted by: mopar at April 16, 2009 12:45 PM
Very interesting. I'd be tempted to 'eat' that hallway closet closest to the master and combine it with the current master closet to create a walk-in.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 16, 2009 12:45 PM
Rough calculation from the floorplan gets it pretty close to 1,700 sq. ft. It may actually be right.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 12:45 PM
I'm usually th first to bitch about Corcoran high prices but lets consider the location. Pretty prime. Also as DIBS, said, its pretty big.
1.35 maybe not. Maybe a cool mil and it'll go to the closest all cash European that can buy it.
Posted by: Prodigal_Son at April 16, 2009 12:47 PM
Nice enough, but I don't like how the floors look like they are a different color in the bedroom and then a much lighter color in living room. Maybe it's just the pictures, and maybe that's picky but for that money, I want consistent flooring throughout.
Gorgeous deck.
Posted by: 11217 at April 16, 2009 12:49 PM
Looks like you're on the second floor of the original part of the house, and the top floor of the extension (which looks like an old extension from the photo and well done (i.e. it blends in)), with the roof deck on the extension. Gotta say, it is a prime area, outdoor space, 3 br and a den... Kitchen could be upgraded from the photo with new cabinets and appliances...
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 12:51 PM
AHHHHHH, now I see the catch.....you enter through a SPIRAL STAIRCASE. Sorry folks but I come home a little too tipsy too often for that.
A spiral staircase for a $1 MM+ coop?? I don't think so.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 12:51 PM
Everyone wants 20-25% off asking, Everyone wants 20-25% off asking Everyone wants 20-25% off asking Everyone....Are we not men? NO We are DEVO!!
Posted by: billyboomer at April 16, 2009 12:53 PM
this is my favorite intersection of any neighborhood in the city.
Posted by: duckumu at April 16, 2009 12:54 PM
hmmm
not digging the bathroom in the foyer
kitchen needs a bit sprucing
great space though - love the outdoor and love the locale
I think a million and change can move this
Posted by: gemini10 at April 16, 2009 12:55 PM
No, you enter through the dining room.
Posted by: kensingtonka at April 16, 2009 12:55 PM
The spiral staircase is not the entrance, its the access to the roof deck.
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 12:56 PM
I've been to this apt ( when it was owned by someone else) the front room & den where one space. But the back of the apt was a little warren like. the roof deck is fantastic, being on a corner.
Posted by: binnyG at April 16, 2009 12:56 PM
1842...there is no other stairway in the floorplan, nor is there any other entrance door. It's both the access to the apt. and the access to the roofdeck.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:02 PM
If you have 1.3M to put into real estate right now, buy an entire house....not a floor thru in a 3-story.
Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 16, 2009 1:05 PM
High maint/cc ... I bet this ends up going for $995 to avoid the mansion tax.
Which it really should, since it's not a mansion.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 16, 2009 1:05 PM
I'm the first to say a maintenance fee is out of line, but for this size apartment, I don't think $1442 is bad at all. I think it's actually pretty good.
I'd never pay it though.
Posted by: 11217 at April 16, 2009 1:06 PM
binnyG...did you enter through a spiral staircase or is something missing from the floorplan????
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:09 PM
Dave, what are you talking about? There is an entrance doorway off the dining room.
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 16, 2009 1:10 PM
agreed brg
but sometimes people don't want to deal with the pitfalls of house ownership and prefer to have someone else deal with them using their maintenance money
Posted by: gemini10 at April 16, 2009 1:10 PM
Explain the high maintenance fee when this is probably one of 4 apartments in a brownstone? Seems like that should be per year
Posted by: thedudeabides at April 16, 2009 1:14 PM
Yes, Snappy but there's no indication of a stairway on the floorplan other than the spiral. What I meant was there part of the building footprint (with a staircase) not included in the floorplan because it was not part of the unit; in which case there'd be a door leading in/out of the hallway.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:14 PM
dude....there's probably nightly linen service. :)
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:15 PM
> "sometimes people don't want to deal with the pitfalls of house ownership"
But in a co-op this small, you probably do have to deal with the pitfalls. By committee.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 16, 2009 1:15 PM
Maintenance fees average around a dollar per square foot.
More if there is a doorman, porters, etc.
I'm kinda confused by the comments about the high maintenance since we've seen numbers like this before on apartments 500 sf smaller...
This is a rather large apartment...1700 sf. The maintenance is in line with apartments of this size.
Posted by: 11217 at April 16, 2009 1:17 PM
True Snark
I didn't think of it that way
Posted by: gemini10 at April 16, 2009 1:17 PM
Maintenance looks pretty good. Abount 40% of that maintenance goes to property taxes.
Posted by: DeLepp at April 16, 2009 1:21 PM
Nice apt, nice to have a FDR, but a shame with an FDR to have a kitchen that tiny. Needs a new stove. Surprised to see no one complaining about all the traffic noise on Clinton. I say it goes for 999k.
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 1:23 PM
For once I do think the maintenance is high. Nearly $14K/year that is not deductible (mortgage/real estate taxes). That's alot for heat and water.
Posted by: BH76 at April 16, 2009 1:26 PM
Yes, denton. I love and must have one FDRs. The stove sucks and you certainly would know.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:26 PM
Small co-ops are a hassle. Whoever buys this will be responsible for 1/4 the costs of a new roof and facade.
I owned the top floor of a brownstone around the corner on Strong Place many years ago. It took months to reach even simple decisions.
This is a nice place, overpriced by 250K, and the maintenance is not too high. But I think a larger co-op structure is easier to live with.
Posted by: buttermilk channel at April 16, 2009 1:26 PM
should read: I love FDRs and must always have one.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:26 PM
No go on entry via spiral stair. There's a whole "chunk" of the floorplan that does not show the building's interior cirucaltion (as in a typical brownstone). Otherwise floorplan would be flush with exterior walls. Got it?
Posted by: ppw_girlz at April 16, 2009 1:30 PM
Yeah, the maintenance my not be that far out of whack. It is a big place. It just seems like a lot of scratch for a self-managed building with no services included.
Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 16, 2009 1:33 PM
"For once I do think the maintenance is high"
84 cents per square foot is not high.
Posted by: 11217 at April 16, 2009 1:33 PM
nice family-sized apt in ps29. will go for over 1mm but who knows how much. maintenance seems reasonable to me. dont' understand DIBS issue --- you clearly enter off main stairway into dining area, like any townhouse floorthru.
Posted by: Ringo at April 16, 2009 1:34 PM
they must be counting the outdoor space in the square footage.
Posted by: wasder at April 16, 2009 1:39 PM
Respondees here seem to have a lack of clarity about what monthly maintenance in a co-op pays for. It covers real estate tax, water/sewer, electrical for public areas, heat/hot water and paayment of underlying building mortgage, if any. If the building needs upgrades, it's paid for from maintenance reserves. Maintenance fees will cover a management company, unless the building is self-managed. All legal and accounting fees are also paid for out of the monthly maintenance.
I've both owned multi-family buildings and shares in co-ops. The $1/sf is a pretty good rule of thumb. If a building costs more, it's probably due to additional services or higher underlying mortgage or taxes.
Given the size of this apartment the maintenance seems fair.
I like the vibe of tthis palce, except as mentioned above the kithcen could stand a renovation.
Posted by: bessie2 at April 16, 2009 1:39 PM
Ringo..there's nothing clear about it...There's no stairway on the floorplane. That hallway is shared with the rooms in the front as well and is too narrow to conatin a stairway and a hairpin hallway as well. If the stairway is outside the floorplan as shown it doesn't show where the main entry door is to the unit.
i have emailed the broker for clarification but there is no stairawy other than the spiral one. Yes, I know that goes UP to the deck but, according to the floorplans as they stand, it goes down too.
It's a deal breaker if that's the case, which is my only point. Proper floorplans include the stairawy layout and given the detail of this floorplan, it would have as well.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 1:46 PM
Oops, I think wasder is right about them inckuding the roof deck. Effin Corcoran! Didn't add it all up, just took 17' wide x the length and get about 1200 sft. The deck is 600 sft. Sorry, that's way overpriced.
Posted by: denton at April 16, 2009 1:50 PM
Pretty place, but I don't believe the square footage either. The rooms aren't that big, and I think the lack of a real foyer in apt this size is a big negative. Deck is beautiful but spiral staircase access a negative. I say buyer tries to bargain down to a million and while they're there, will try to avoid mansion tax at 999.
Posted by: Miss Muffett at April 16, 2009 1:53 PM
DIBS, do you see the door leading into the dining room area? off the space outside the floorplan? that space is roughly 7x15. That's where the stairway is.
Posted by: Ringo at April 16, 2009 1:59 PM
The section directly in front of the dining room door is no wider than 3', slightly wider than the adjacent clost. If there's another stairway coming up from below, why isn't it shown on the floorplan like every other floorplan. This is a very detailed floorplan yet, no staircase shown.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:02 PM
not just 1 floor of townhouse. It is one floor of the corner house facing Clinton and 1 floor of that shorter house facing Kane. So the 1700 sq ft figure is doable.
Under a $1m ?- even by .99cents ... I doubt it.
Looking at pics the place will show great and beautiful area. I say $1.2m
(and for the person who thinks that momnth maint is not deductible....true to extent - but certain % is often about 1/2. Surprised that don't know that)
Posted by: Petebklyn at April 16, 2009 2:04 PM
DIBS are you a little slow? There is clearly a front doorway and stoop along Clinton, from where there would be a vestibule and typical brownstone stair. There is a little notch missing from the floorplan where the door to DA is located (b/c, again, otherwise those walls would be flush, as seen from the side elevation). This is where the common stair and hall is located (sufficient width @ 7'6" wide), it's just not shown in plan which is common for a multi-family bldg.
Posted by: ppw_girlz at April 16, 2009 2:04 PM
This is unit 3...top floor, ppw. Where is the entry door from the stairway not shown on the floorplan into the area (the unit) shown in this floorplan. Nonexistent.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:06 PM
OMG DIBS
I give up. So happy you emailed agent to clarify this! LOL
Posted by: Ringo at April 16, 2009 2:07 PM
To whomever keeps posting the ridiculous high votes,
We can track the votes by IP so if you keep it up you will lost your commenting and voting privileges.
Thanks
Posted by: brownstoner at April 16, 2009 2:11 PM
OK...mea culpa, mea culpa...I was focused on the hallway in the front that also contained the spiral staircase and the entrance to the dining room. I did not see the entrance door on the right side further towards the rear of the floorplan. I was wondering where you got the 7' Ringo and now I see it.
SORRY.
I guess all-in-all a pretty decent floorplan.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:11 PM
nice looking place. good alternative for people who can't afford a house there. Houses in that block probably go over 2.4M or more so RELATIVELY a decent alternative. Do suspect a lot of 999k offers. Whether sellers accepts 999k is anyone's guess.
Posted by: more4less at April 16, 2009 2:12 PM
No, it's 2nd floor, because it carries through to rear extension, which is only 2-stories (plus basement). Do a google map "walk around" and you'll see. This is getting frustrating for an architect...Regardless of all this banter, a spiral stair as primary stair wouldn't conform to Building Code egress requirements for multi-fam.
Posted by: ppw_girlz at April 16, 2009 2:13 PM
Phew....I was starting to worry about you Dave!
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 16, 2009 2:13 PM
Okay, done and doner.
Posted by: ppw_girlz at April 16, 2009 2:14 PM
/ [opening door a crack to see who's going to throw something at me]
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:15 PM
**tossing smelly shoes at dave**
Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 16, 2009 2:21 PM
At least it wasn't cat poo. Sorry , all, I'm usually good with floorplans but didn't get enough sleep last night and its hitting.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:22 PM
"$1,350,000 for a single floor of a townhouse seems a little aggressive in this environment, no?"
Just a little. Not your average townhouse though. A true 2.5 BR. Only one closeted one and the adjacent two of the three halves should be combined and closet inserted. Spacious but you know where I stand on price.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at April 16, 2009 2:27 PM
Floorplan shows all three bedrooms with closets. One bedroom is small. Plus there's a separate den to use as an office. I think this place is really nice, with a good location. Plus a well tended roof deck can be great for a gardener. You could even have kids here. $1.1MM.
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 2:40 PM
no, the spiral stairs is for the roof. It was a while ago, I think it was via the side ( Kane St) somehow, definitely not the spiral
Posted by: binnyG at April 16, 2009 2:53 PM
I did th math on the stated space for the seven identified rooms (den, LR, DR, Kitchen, and the 3 BR's) and got about 1520 sq.ft., which means when you include the bathrooms and the hallways this might actually top out at 1700 sq. ft.
As for the maintenance, unfortunately the purchase calculator does not identify how much of the maintenance is deductible, so i9t's kind of hard to tell how reasonable the amount is, but it doesn't sound outrageous for an apartment this size.
I'm predicting a relatively fast sale for 1.15M.
Posted by: Boerumresident at April 16, 2009 2:54 PM
It is around 1,700 sq ft, without the deck.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 16, 2009 2:58 PM
11217 -
I will agree the maintenance is not high on a per square foot basis. What I meant was that as a monthly fee that you're going to have to pay in perpetuity (with potential increases), it's kind of a pain in the ass. I tend to look at maint costs as "how much does it alter my overall payment" rather than "what's the price per square foot?" since the former is of more significance to me than the latter.
1700 square feet is huge, and the maintenance is certainly not out of line with other things we've just seen, but it's still a tough number to contemplate adding to what would already be a pretty high mortgage.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at April 16, 2009 3:02 PM
Lived up one block from 1994 till 2003. When I was looking to buy a house in 2003, you could by a full house nearby for $1.1-$1.4. So, not that into a $1.0-$1.3 mm for a 2-bedroom floor through with $1,400 maintenance.
Is it just me, or does it seem as if posters on this blog consistently prefer apartments to full brownstones?
Posted by: Boerum Hill at April 16, 2009 3:08 PM
This is a gorgeous place in a great location with a unique layout (essentially 1.5 floors of a brownstone, kinda like a ranch-style brownstone). I'm guessing there will be buyers that are priced out of full brownstones, want more space than a normal-sized floor-through, and would prefer the layout of a large single floor to a duplex. Definitely commands over a million...I guessed 1.2.
Posted by: betterside at April 16, 2009 3:09 PM
In 2003, a 1.1-1.4MM house in that area would need a complete overhall, so apples to oranges really.
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 3:30 PM
This is a great area but there is no way on earth this goes for over a million. Nice place though. The maint. is crazy.
Posted by: brickoven at April 16, 2009 3:31 PM
1842,
Not apples to Oranges. In 2003 there were well finished houses in the vicinity for $1.1-$1.4. I went to an ungodly number of open houses in 2002-2003 before buying in the summer of 2003. Ended up buying in Boerum Hill because I ddin't want to pay more than $1 mm. Rented a duplex for 10 years that cost about what the monthly maintenance on this place.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at April 16, 2009 3:57 PM
Boerum Hill, I looked around a year or two before that (early to mid 2002) in the area before buying a brownstone in another neighborhood. Maybe I missed them, but I did not see any brownstones in Cobble Hill or Carroll Gardens for 1.1 million, or even 1.4 million, that were in decent shape, and if they were, they'd sell well above asking at that point.
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 4:16 PM
Oh, wait, sorry, I'm getting my years and purchases wrong. I was thinking of around late 2003 into 2004.
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 4:18 PM
1842,
Gives a sense of how fast the market moved. We waited too long to buy because we had 1/2 a brownstone with a reasonable rent. We were stunned when we heard that a floor through on our old block on Clinton sold for well over $1 mm.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at April 16, 2009 4:31 PM
It did jump up quickly. That's how we upgraded, took advantage of what our place was worth and bought a fixer upper...
Posted by: 1842 at April 16, 2009 4:53 PM
One thing is for sure. There a sucker born everyday. This is a very nice apartment, if you like living in an apartment building with other owners. It's on the top floor so it's nice. The space is great and the deck is fabulous plus the location is good. I don't know if they will get a million or more, perhaps. Does the apartment have views of Manhattan or the VB? I know a house that has 2000 square feet and is price just alittle more then what there asking for this apartment.
Posted by: CECILIA at April 17, 2009 11:22 PM
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