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April 1, 2009

Co-op of the Day: 325 Clinton Avenue, #11E

Here's a solid one-bedroom on a high floor in the Clinton Hill Co-ops at 325 Clinton Avenue. These apartments aren't fancy, but they are generally priced lower than similar places in the nabe. And this one, asking $319,000, has the benefit of great views from the 13th floor. (The kitchen is hurting though.) The monthly maintenance of $720 is also decent for a 750-square-foot apartment. Good buy?
325 Clinton Avenue, #11E [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark

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Nice one bedroom...

There's a wall shown on the plan between dining and living room and it's not there in reality as seen, or in this case not seen, in the photos...tsk, tsk, tsk.

Posted by: bayridgegirl at April 1, 2009 12:50 PM

BRG,
I noticed that too, the floor plan and pictured don't match up.

Posted by: christopher at April 1, 2009 12:54 PM

In one or two of the pictures, the floors look like they slope quite a bit. Not sure...maybe it's just the pictures though.

I'm not a fan of these apartments, but it does look nice and bright.

Posted by: 11217 at April 1, 2009 12:57 PM

Again, I remark on how non-luxury construction is somewhat nicer than luxury new construction... that apartment has more windows and space than it's condo equivalent. Kitchen is non-issue, replace it for $5K from ikea, done.

Posted by: Heather at April 1, 2009 12:59 PM

While I like the new widget, I also like the rough idea of B'stoner traffic the "Total Appraisals" tally gives me.

Posted by: infinitejester at April 1, 2009 1:00 PM

I have a feeling my appraisal didn't register... because the "acceptable" range is not my acceptable range.

Posted by: tybur6 at April 1, 2009 1:08 PM

Yeah, there's something seriously wrong with the floorplan. Where did the window in the kitchen come from? And the living room layout seems to bear no relationship to the living room in the floorplan, unless the wall with that entryway in the living room simply ends just outside of the frame. And is it me or does the bedroom look narrower than 10 feet? I'm skeptical.

Posted by: toadie at April 1, 2009 1:17 PM

Kitchen is pretty painful. Plenty of room for you to improve it. Glad I'm not the only one who was questioning the floor plan. It's a good amount of space. Lots of light and windows. Needs some TLC but is a really nice space.

Anyone see Corcoran's little April's Fool Day joke?

http://www.corcoran.com/gfx/header_01.gif

Posted by: TownhouseLady at April 1, 2009 1:22 PM

The views are killer from these buildings. And total floor space is fairly generous. Kitchen upgrade could be reasonably achieved. Location very good and right on top of the subway entrance. These apts always present good value.

Posted by: wasder at April 1, 2009 1:25 PM

I live in the coops so I won't comment on price although for the light, space, views, and hood we feel like we got a deal. The true floorplan is here:

http://www.chaoc.com/floorPlans.html

And before you get started yes I know the exterior is fugly and projecty but thats been rehashed on this site to death.

Posted by: eh at April 1, 2009 1:26 PM

It's a $1500 1-bedroom rental unit, no? But you are being asked to buy it for $2200 a month.

Posted by: tybur6 at April 1, 2009 1:26 PM

Good light, good space
but the kitchen is ugh and assuming the bathroom is too
I think it will sell quickly if the seller accepts $275K

Posted by: gemini10 at April 1, 2009 1:36 PM

tybur6 - I do not think you can find 1-bedrm for $1500 with this much space and this location. $2200 a month would be a good deal and you own it, which is an asset.

Posted by: mg1 at April 1, 2009 1:42 PM

Some of you REALLY underestimate the mortgage interest deduction, especially in the first few years of buying a home.

This place with 20% down comes in at $2100 a month, before the deduction, and probably around $1800 with. Certainly a reasonable price equivalent of a huge 1 bedroom rental.

I'm being conservative with that 1800, as my refund this year works out to $575 a month and the place I bought was less than this.

Posted by: 11217 at April 1, 2009 1:48 PM

Bravo Heather...I happen to think the apartments I've seen in the Clinton Hill Co-ops are on the whole nicer and better values than the new "luxury" construction throughout brownstone Brooklyn. These seem like solid apartments with great light and good layouts that maximize space. These new condos are (at least for the 1BRs) cookie cutter boxes...they all feel like really nice hotel rooms, but not very functional spaces.
That said this place seems to need a lot of kitchen work...no cabinets?!? There are renovated apartments listed in this complex for not too much more than this place.

Posted by: clintonhillbuyer at April 1, 2009 1:48 PM

The layouts are great in these co-ops but I think the maintenance is super high given what the building services actually are. The complex has security, but no doorman. You have to open the main doors yourself after a certain hour (no more buzzing in), and ancient elevators.

Posted by: mksk at April 1, 2009 2:12 PM

A quick search of Craigslist... i found 2 or 3 one- and two-bed apartments within blocks of this place WELL under the $2000 mark.

Posted by: tybur6 at April 1, 2009 2:46 PM

"You have to open the main doors yourself after a certain hour (no more buzzing in), "

wait, so if you have a visitor after hours, you'd have to physically go downstairs to let them in..WHATTTT?

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 1, 2009 2:53 PM

And as I mentioned, with the mortgage interest deduction, you will be paying WELL under $2000 a month to buy this place as well.

And you'll have the added benefit of having a place to live when you're retired and on a fixed income instead of flopping around from rental to rental figuring out how you're going to pay your $4000 a month rent for a studio in the Bronx on your $1000 a month Social Security check.

Posted by: 11217 at April 1, 2009 2:55 PM

> "$4000 a month rent for a studio in the Bronx"

At which point, the maintenance on this apartment will be 6,000.

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 1, 2009 3:02 PM

I'm looking at the widget above and wondering who appraised this at above asking. Full disclosure, my guess was 299k. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for their pricing estimates, especially because I know nothing of pricing in this market, but I'm curious, if you wish to step forward, what are the factors that made you go above ask?

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 1, 2009 3:08 PM

"I'm looking at the widget above and wondering who appraised this at above asking."

One guess...

The owner.

Posted by: 11217 at April 1, 2009 3:09 PM

That many times though? Well, I guess you could be right. Using various sign-in names could get the job done. I wonder how many people are simply 'playing around' on this thing just to mess with the numbers. What a shame.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 1, 2009 3:17 PM

300K to live in a housing project, hopefully someone will be slinging product in the courtyard.

Posted by: Xander Crews at April 1, 2009 3:36 PM

Most resonable price for a true 1 bedroom I've seen in a while. Lots of light and views. I think they will get over asking.

Posted by: Adam Dahill at April 1, 2009 3:56 PM

I voted above asking, I'll admit it.
The reason is that I'm an owner in a different building in the complex with the same floor plan on a high floor with views and I can tell you, in fact, that this unit will be appraised above asking. Mine was appraised recently for more than 319k. So...maybe i cheated but I did so based on my own experience.

And you definitely don't have to go downstairs at night to let someone in.

Posted by: TD at April 1, 2009 3:57 PM

325 Clinton 12-G has confirmed cash offers at $420,000. Last April the owner of 12-G was offered as much as $520,000 to sell at that time, but declined due to personal reasons. Furnished 12-G has an established rent of $2,500+ a month. Take a look at the blog below:

http://325clintonave12g.blogspot.com/

The Co-Ops have historicaly been priced low due to real estate racism. The mix of families, singles, emty nesters has been changing over the past decade and the Co-Ops are a great racial, ethnic mix. The Architect of the Co-Ops was the famous Wallace K. Harrison (Lincoln Center, The United Nations). The exterior might be minimalist, but the floor plans are expansive, the windows large and the buidlings are solidly built. The Co-ops also have cutting edge Co-Generation technology making them one of the greenest places to live in Clinton Hill/Fort Greene area.

Posted by: FloatingWorld at April 1, 2009 4:15 PM

if you're going to buy a 1 bedrm unit in this area, $319k is a very good price. Have only seen cheaper prices in that coop when it was short sales, foreclosures, etc. I think renting is a great option to consider in this economy but have to say this unit, if can be bought for around 290k-300k, making a good case to buy (ie freaking gov is on knees dishing out incentives for us to buy). I actually find when these units have bad kitchen & baths to be a plus. To renov a kitchen & bath in an aptmt is not a huge task so rather have options to renov it to my own taste.

Posted by: more4less at April 1, 2009 4:38 PM

This would be a nice apartment for Rob.
He could get himself a bed and live like a grown-up.
I think it is a good deal.

Posted by: sam at April 1, 2009 4:56 PM

If it's really a fantastic deal and really underpriced, it might get ask, but otherwise I think it will sit there because first-time buyers (the buyers of one bedroom coops) don't have money to re-do kitchens and baths.

The two windows in the LR/DR that don't match are a real problem for me. In fact, I have the same problem now in my rental and it drives me insane.

Posted by: mopar at April 1, 2009 5:02 PM

The E units look across Layfayette Avenue into the courtyard on the South Campus. They don't have the same expansive views of the units across the hallway. Within the building they have are across from the Elevator shaft and next to the fire stairs. They are tend to be the slowest units to sell.

Posted by: FloatingWorld at April 1, 2009 5:08 PM

Isn't there some kind of $8,000 first time buyer tax incentive a la the Obama plan these days??

Does that apply in NYC?

Posted by: 11217 at April 1, 2009 5:10 PM

1st time buyers need to wait cause there's no reason not to wait. Prices have dropped from peak but price are NOT cheap. Just cheaper. If someone is able to sell another ppty and roll proceeds into buying another ppty, it's an easier (albeit one can debate if that's a wise move) decision to make.

Mopar, that rental of yours will soon make you make an impulsive decision to move. It can't be that bad right?

Posted by: more4less at April 1, 2009 5:15 PM

Okay, I admit I've never renovated a kitchen or bath, but going from the prices of appliances, even fairly nice ones, I don't really see it as a major expense. I think people have bought into the hype that you need things like cabinet lighting, a 6-burner stove, etc for too long. Kitchen seems especially easy, especially blank space like this one. Free-standing ikea units and done. Hell, you could put up wall shelves, leave that stove alone (it does work after all and it has a hood, which is more than I can say for my luxury rental's) and be fine.

And bath? As long as there aren't leaking issues, what do you really need to do?

Posted by: Heather at April 1, 2009 5:39 PM

> "I don't really see it as a major expense."

Well, not if you are going to go the cheapest possible route as you outlined. But if you are going to replace the cabinets, with real cabinets actually attached to the wall, a good counter surface, and new appliances, it will add up quickly.

And in a co-op like this, I imagine they require that you use a licensed contractor for your work.

> And bath? As long as there aren't leaking issues, what do
> you really need to do?

Depends. How ugly is the tile? Does the tub need reglazing?

Posted by: SnarkSlope at April 1, 2009 5:45 PM

Agree that the maintenance is high, but still a relatively good value.

I renovated a similar apartment -- you could renovate the kitchen and bath here for 25-35k. Maybe less if you DIY/go more of the Ikea route.

Posted by: TinaM1021 at April 1, 2009 6:30 PM

11217 - you're only presenting one side of the story on interest deduction. When your are gainfully employed or have other income, the place could be effectively $1800. If you somehow get laid off, guess what - its $2100! Not insignificant if in the same scenario your rent would be $1500 or $1600. Not to mention rents are falling too.

TD - was yours an "appraisal" for a home equity loan? if so, guess what, they can yank those amounts down right after you blink. Many heloc lenders still appraising at comp asking prices (what sells at ask these days?)

Guess there's a lot of people defending their purchases in this building, and that's cool. After all, its the low end of the market and less savvy buyers that prop up this end of the market based on interest rates, which look fine for now.

This place is grim to me, though. $220.

Posted by: invisible at April 1, 2009 7:57 PM

Friends renovated a (just renovated) kitchen in the apt. they just bought in Brooklyn a few months ago. They DID use Ikea cabinets, but also got Ceasarstone counter tops, higher end appliances, a small section of handmade tile for the backsplash, took down a section of a wall to open the room to the living room, and did have to use a licensed contractor. They left the floor alone. It was $40,000.

Posted by: Nomi at April 1, 2009 8:05 PM

I don't really know Clinton Hill. Can someone give me a relative (to other neighborhoods) idea how desirable it is?

Posted by: Nomi at April 1, 2009 8:09 PM

Clinton Hill used to be one of the most exclusive neighborhoods in brooklyn ie: "The Heights, The Hill and The Slope" used to be it. then it became one of the most dangerous and dicey neighborhoods in Brooklyn. It wasn't just bad, it was BAD. Now it has come full circle and is enjoying a diverse, Obama-era renaissance. It is very expensive, maybe too expensive at the moment for what it is, but this little apartment is a bargain.
The real downside is that subway access for most of the area sucks. But keeping a car there is easy.

Posted by: sam at April 1, 2009 9:11 PM

Thanks, Sam. Obama-era renaissance. That's funny. There's already an "Obama-era"?

Posted by: Nomi at April 1, 2009 9:33 PM

yup! this is the Obama-era baby. Soak it in!

Posted by: sam at April 1, 2009 9:39 PM

Obama error is more like it.

Posted by: Xander Crews at April 1, 2009 9:43 PM

Yes, it is a pretty story that 11217 tells. If only it were all the story.

To quote: "Some of you REALLY underestimate the mortgage interest deduction, especially in the first few years of buying a home. This place with 20% down comes in at $2100 a month, before the deduction, and probably around $1800 with."

But as a poster above notes, the mortgage deduction goes away if you lose your job (just when you most need it).

And as no one else has observed, the 20% down represents a sizable opportunity cost. You could take your $70K (20% down and closing costs) and invest it elsewhere in something that might actually earn you an annual return of 3 or 4% (at a minimum).

Did anyone else see the recent essay (in the NYT?) elaborating how housing historically just does not generate a return?

I like a couple of the Clinton Hill apartments that I've seen, but I don't believe that an apartment, especially, is a great place to park a lot of your money unless you really don't need to be earning anything on it. And you can get stuck in a co-op with rising maintenance costs year after year.

Posted by: zuleika at April 2, 2009 12:11 AM

Zuleika... real estate produces a 30-70% annual return. Haven't you seen the prices? Things like "Bought in 2006 for $450k, now listed for $1.95mm"

Posted by: tybur6 at April 2, 2009 8:20 AM

with current economy, renting is superior to buying. But let's not apply that belief selectively only on this or another unit. This applies across the whole mkt - unless something is priced super cheap that it is same or less than renting on monthly cashflow. Let's also not say only coop maintenance is going up. Condo fee's and ppty taxes are going up too. NYC gov, utilities, insurance companies are not sparing any ppty type as far as jacking up rates. for water. If you own, fees are going up. I know cause I own and I don't lie to myself as to what I'm seeing right now (ie prices are down, costs are up, economy in da dumps)

Posted by: more4less at April 2, 2009 9:13 AM

Tybur6, the windfall you cite (and year!) illustrates the bubble, not housing as a sound investment over time. Historically, according to the analysis I read (in a money magazine, or the NYT Sunday business section), housing is not a great investment.

Posted by: zuleika at April 3, 2009 1:46 AM

« Wednesday Food & Drink Round-Up House of the Day: 213 Berkeley Place »

April 1, 2009

Co-op of the Day: 325 Clinton Avenue, #11E

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